Comment on Debate with Yaron Yadan
I saw this comment on YouTube, that’s how I felt about it too. I don’t completely identify with the commenter, but it’s a voice that needs to be heard.
Here are Yaron’s two main claims: 1. There are errors in the Torah. 2. There are mostly unimportant things in the Torah. The assumption behind these claims is: God does not make mistakes, He is omniscient and transcendent in wisdom by definition. The conclusion Yaron reaches is: Given that the Torah contains errors and nonsense, and given that God is free from errors and full of wisdom, then it is unlikely that the Torah was written by God on the one hand, and very likely that it was written by people from a primitive period, on the other.
On the other hand, Michael Avraham’s entire discourse consists of a chain of “if-then” arguments. Therefore, no concrete argument was actually put on the table from his side, but only a hypothesis. Michael Liron’s response is based on the anthropomorphic assumption that “God expects religious duties from me,” and also on the assumption that “my tradition is more correct than other traditions,” and, alongside this, also on a set of controversial arguments (the physico-theological argument and the moral argument, which in my opinion are not valid). Ultimately, Michael’s argument is that given and reasonably assumed that the Torah was given by God, then it does not matter what its content is, the conclusion, in his opinion, has already been decided.
This conclusion that the Torah was written by God puts Michael in a paradox that contains the following three assumptions simultaneously: 1. The Torah is full of errors and nonsense. 2. God is free from errors and His wisdom is sublime. 3. The Torah was written by God. Holding a set of assumptions that are incompatible with each other leads to what Shiron calls “absurdity.” Finally, in order to escape the paradox, Michael omits assumption 1: “The Torah is full of errors and nonsense,” and in order to defend his conclusion that: “The Torah was written by God,” Michael is willing to do any possible interpretive acrobatics in order to reconcile the errors and nonsense in the Torah with the assumption that the Torah was written by God. And here he essentially enters a closed circle, as Yaron says, because no matter what is written in the Torah, or how wrong or unimportant it is, Michael’s starting point is that it is “right” and “important”, and thus he has enclosed himself in a closed circle, and all that is left for him is to walk within it “round and round”.
What do you think of his stuff?
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Assuming you accept the following three assumptions:
“1. The Torah is full of errors and falsehoods. 2. God is free from errors and His wisdom is sublime. 3. The Torah was written by God. ”
Do you see a difficulty in your position? Even if the source of belief is external to what is written in the book. (Tradition and the argument of the witness).
I do not accept assumption 1, and this is mainly because of assumptions 2 and 3. If there is something that seems problematic to you, it is likely that it is an interpretive error on your part (you did not understand the verses correctly) or that you were wrong in your assumptions (i.e. these are not nonsense).
I emphasized that my assumptions 2 and 3 are not based on the content of the book and therefore precede the formulation of the position regarding 1. Beyond that, in the examples Shiron himself gave, I showed him that he was wrong. Therefore, assumption 1, even according to his method, is simply arbitrary. As mentioned, according to my method, it is wrong.
If so, would there ever be such a foolish mistake that would cause you to not accept conclusion 3?
Also, we have no certainty about premise 3, so given premise 1 it would greatly weaken 3. (Of course, if you are certain about 3, this is the plausible conclusion).
Don't you see any difficulty in this?!? It's simple probability.
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Another question you said there that the distinction between Torah and morality is not yours, unlike the one that distinguishes between Halacha and morality. (I think Rabbi Kook does too) and this is the view that most religious people, I understand, hold.
Do you have any sources for this?
In principle, it is possible. Something that is clear on the face of it that is complete nonsense (although even then I will assume that it is a later addition). But I do not know of such a thing.
If I have reached conclusion 3, you need very proven nonsense to reject it. There is none.
Regarding halacha and morality, you can search the Torim website, and I also have a series of lessons in which sources are also discussed. By the way, you are mistaken in understanding the prophecy. On the contrary, it is simply that he completely disconnects and does not recognize morality, but when you read, you see that he does recognize it.
The division between halacha and morality is a simple fact that those who deny it (like Rabbi Kook in several sources) are among the most perplexed. There are many laws that are not related to morality in any way. I claimed that there is complete independence, even in moral laws.
But I do not really care who thinks this way and who does not and whether most religious people think this way or that way. I say what I think, not what others think.
Regarding the Risha, let's say we take the creation of the world, the myth in Genesis conflicts with physics.
From here either this will undermine the credibility of the Torah or we will say that the Torah is not intended as a science book.
If the tradition of the credibility of the Torah is not certain and satisfied with us, we can use this nonsense to decide that the Torah is not divine.
In this way, if you add enough nonsense, you will have a serious challenge. And this is exactly what Shiron explained to you.
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It is clear that there are commandments that are not related to morality, but there are commandments that appear to be moral, we understand that these are immoral things, except for immoral commandments. The accepted perception of both is the true morality.
The religious assumption that is accepted by most religious people is very relevant, because it is the tradition. If you challenge the tradition, there is no reason not to challenge the giving of the Torah.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist (I don't know why the Americans use this title) to understand this. It's clear. And I answered that.
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