Consultation on forms and areas of study
Hello Rabbi,
I am currently studying at the Hesder Yeshiva Yerucham and am finishing Shiur A this year.
I would be happy to know what the Rabbi thinks about this:
Hesitation regarding Shiur B in Yeshiva:
I came to the conclusion that I would probably be drafted for full service and not through the settlement framework, which increased my existing need to utilize the period in the yeshiva even more than before.
In the yeshiva, there is a clear intention and an accepted line of studying Gemara in detail, but unfortunately I did not find a connection to this study. When I look back, I do not feel that it was the morning sessions that made me grow, but rather the afternoon-evening sessions in which I also engaged in Halacha [with proficiency + with study], thought [with proficiency + with study], Tanakh, Gemara in detail, etc.
I spoke to several rabbis about this in a yeshiva. One of them said that although I may not feel the point right now – “a scholar ultimately develops from study” [of course, this was not said in a vacuum, but out of faith in the righteousness of the path and as personal advice]. The second rabbi I spoke to agreed with the statement that study is necessary to develop as a scholar, but not necessarily study of the Gemara in its current format. For that matter, one can study Halacha through study, thought through study, and the Bible through study – and also develop through these avenues as a person and as a scholar. He argues that Gemara is one area of Torah that is important to engage in, but if there is a deeper connection and a sense of growth from another area of Torah, and it is studied through study and “from the beginning” and not out of laziness – it is also an alternative to Takhilit.
A point for clarification – when I talk about studying another field in depth, for example Halacha for that matter, it can turn out that the form and even the type of sources will be almost identical to studying Gemara in depth [Gemarot, Rishonim, Acharonim, etc.], but all the motivation comes from a different place. The whole approach is different.
In my opinion, there is nothing more practical than studying thought, faith, philosophy [no matter what you call it] – for when one engages in this, one engages in setting goals for life – and those are individualized to practical life. This place is occupied by studying thought in detail – and studying Halacha in detail, from the sources, with opinions here and there – but it is not about studying “in order”, but according to issues that interest me and that force me to reach certain conclusions and take responsibility for my words, thus pushing me to uncompromising clarification. [As soon as it comes to practical Halacha rulings and not just opinions, the matter must be much more well-founded, not that opinions are not serious – but if I said incorrect opinion – “well, so be it”, in contrast to Halacha which must come from a complete and clarified place to the end].
There were external issues that emerged that might need to be considered:
A. The social aspect – not in the sense of changing my ways because of social pressure, but rather that there is something constructive in the fact that everyone is dealing with similar issues, that I share an issue and a world of learning with friends.
B. I may not find a group of people who want to learn this way. [I’m not sure I want to either].
C. There is no intention like there is in studying Gemara in detail [there are no source pages, or weekly lessons like in Gemara].
The answer I found so far to these things:
A. On the social side – there are other shared learning frameworks in the yeshiva [a faith lesson program, other lessons, and more importantly – if I study these things in the morning, I have plenty of time in the afternoon for the friendships I want to make]. In short – I think this is the easiest problem of the three.
B. Fellowship – In terms of holding myself to the morning routine, I’m less worried. Of course, I’ll have to face the reality test, but I’m optimistic. As for the downside of a second opinion and a live discussion, I don’t have a real answer, but there’s also something about being able to deal with the problems that concern me fully, except that I might choose someone to sit with as a fellowship outside of the morning routine, study the main points with him, and hear his opinion.
C. The issue of guidance – Regarding source pages, I think we can still manage, the more central problem is the missing lessons and supervision of effective and focused learning. I thought maybe talk to my supervisor and explain to him about the path I chose and ask him if he could guide me at one level or another.
The goals I set for myself in the meeting are:
To find a connection to Torah, to develop theoretical and proficient learning skills for a lifetime of study, and to be prepared in terms of knowledge [halakha, etc.] for the army and the first stages of my life as an adult and independent [both from a “dry” informational perspective, and in terms of forming a religious worldview].
I think that such learning meets these goals.
In our case – I think it is very possible that despite the above problems, given my current perception of things – there is an interest in moving on to study halacha and perhaps also thought in the morning study of Seder Boker instead of Gemara Iyun.
I understood from several people that you advocate studying Gemara in detail, and I wanted to ask you why Gemara in particular, and whether the alternative I suggested could be “for the beginning” as study in a yeshivah in preparation for life, both from the aspect of developing learning skills, both from the aspect of connecting to Torah, and also from the aspect of specific preparation for the upcoming periods of my life [the army and the initial stages of life as a graduate].
In addition to the fundamental question about the path itself, I wanted to ask if you think there are other external reasons that are worth considering.
Thank you very much,
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You have raised a serious pile of considerations here and it is obvious that you have invested effort in it and that these things are important to you (as is the custom of Yeruhamim :)).
Allow me to comment briefly and only in principle, because in my opinion there is no school answer to such a question.
First, perhaps you should reconsider your decision to enlist in the regular track. In my opinion, the added value (I assume that for you it is the feeling of equality in burden) is very small, if any, and the loss to life (and thus to future spiritual contribution to the people of Israel) is greater. This is my personal opinion for most people.
Of course, if studying doesn’t appeal to you and you think you won’t produce or advance, that’s something else. But if the consideration is where to contribute, in my opinion you will contribute more in a yeshiva. I’m not talking about a specific contribution, but a completely practical contribution. Furthermore, since I don’t think studying in a yeshiva is less contributing than serving in the army, I also don’t see a problem in terms of equality of burden.
As for your actual questions, I am one of those who strongly believe in the Gemara as the main study. It depends on personal inclinations, and it is clear that if it does not speak to you, it is not worth insisting, but in general there is nothing like studying the Gemara. I have defined the rest of the studies in several places as Torah in Gebra and not in Haftza (Torah that I have valued in what it contributes to a person, as opposed to the study of theoretical Gemara that does not depend on this. Its value comes from the very act of doing it). The effort required is completely different, the contribution to a person’s personality is completely different (surprisingly), and what you produce is completely different. In my opinion, the study of thought, the Bible, morality, and other vegetables contribute almost nothing. Usually the conclusions are the assumptions you came up with. I have written here several times, both as a teenager and as an old man, and I have never seen anyone change their position on any subject due to studying the Bible. A brilliant move in the Bible is an original explanation of the verses. But the ethical conclusions are always what you originally thought. Therefore, what it has contributed to you and your life is pretty much nil.
It is possible that you have not yet understood what study contributes to you, and perhaps you have not found a study that speaks to you and is worth trying again, perhaps in other places or with other people. It is true that you may not be built for this, because as mentioned, there is no universal school solution. I do not buy the idea of growing in other fields. At most, you will gain knowledge of what such-and-such or unknown person thought on this or that question, but the growth and tools you will gain from it are, in my opinion, zero. As I wrote in those articles, in my opinion, philosophy contributes much more to life than Jewish thought (the usual texts), which are fundamentally a translation into Torah of archaic and irrelevant Greek philosophy. Furthermore, in my opinion, the yeshiva will not contribute much to you in these matters. You can also study them on your own.
In my opinion, a combination of philosophy and theoretical Talmud is a great contribution, but as mentioned, it is not disconnected from my personal tastes. Take it with a grain of salt.
All your other considerations are personal and you probably know yourself better. I have nothing intelligent to offer you about them.
Sorry for repeating the expected mantras you’ve already heard. I’m told that for me, saying the expected is the unexpected. But I really believe it. —————————————————————————————— blessed: It’s true that Tanakh may not “change attitudes,” but it can certainly contribute to the personality of the learner. The world is full of people who can tell how reading a book (any, not just Tanakh) affected them.
In my opinion, personality is built not only from analyzing different positions and deciding between them, but also from various experiences, including reading stories. —————————————————————————————— Rabbi: Hello Baruch.
You are probably right, but it does not concern what I wrote here. Contribution to personality is an undefined parameter. Everything we go through contributes to our personality and even changes it to some extent. Therefore, the Bible still does not seem to have special value according to your definition (you yourself wrote that everything does this, not just reading the Bible).
Beyond that, passive activation, in my opinion, is not what is called learning. Learning is supposed to go through our cognition. To understand things, consider and internalize them. Learning refers to the content and not to an event that acts on me and changes me in an uncontrollable and perhaps unconscious way. —————————————————————————————— Y: Hello Rabbi,
Although, at least in absolute terms, the Torah-observant view has no less practical value in the yeshiva than in the army, one of the main problems is inequality, not in terms of equality in burden, but in terms of the fact that the religious have the ability to develop their spiritual world at the expense of the army, while the secular do not. If I were asked how to act in order to create equality, I would not abolish the Seder, but rather work to establish secular “Seder yeshivas” in which the secular will develop their spiritual world, and thus the entire discourse here will be elevated and we can grow together spiritually.
In addition, it is important to emphasize that another important element of inequality is the fact that even though a member of the Jewish community gives 5 years of his life in “continuous service” for the country [when I include the time in the yeshiva as a practical activity], it is still not equivalent to 3 years that a soldier does and risks his life [of course, one can say that there are many jobbers and lack of recruitment from the secular side as well, but right now the discussion is on the ideal level, say in the case of a guy who has a combat profile]. 5 years, even if they are intense and exploited [and of which even a year and a half is spent in combat and risking life], are not equal to 3 years of risking life. The possibility for religious people [even if it is out of an ideal and contribution] to shorten their service period and the period in which they risk their lives compared to secular people who cannot, is also a point of inequality.
I would love to know what the Rabbi thinks about this.
Torah Rabbi —————————————————————————————— Rabbi: Hello.
Claims of inequality suffer from two main, interrelated flaws:
First, equality is not a supreme value. If other values stand in opposition to equality, they must also be considered and a bottom line must be reached. Such claims assume that the value of equality has a mandatory and absolute status, which it does not. If in the name of equality you enlist for three years and thereby lose your opportunity to grow in the Torah, the people of Israel have lost for the sake of holy equality.
Secondly, there is no equality between anyone and anyone. Service in the IDF’s Special Operations Command is not like service in the artillery. And certainly not as a job. And you are wrong if you attribute this to a non-ideal world. Even in an ideal world, we need IDF generals, jobbers, artillerymen, and military bands. And we certainly need yeshiva students, too.
And what about Talpiyonim or Atudaei? Do you think this is also unequal and should be abolished? They also do not endanger lives, and in fact they do not endanger lives at all, while a soldier in the regular army is certainly at risk and will serve the rest of his life in the reserves like everyone else. The difference in the regular army is completely negligible, and I would not attach any importance to it. To me, these are trivial matters.
The bottom line is that what matters is whether you are doing a meaningful and needed service, not whether you are equal to everyone else. You are never equal and should never be equal. And everyone will do according to their abilities, their views, and their understanding.
Regarding spiritual development, whoever wants it should be allowed to do so, even if they are secular. If there is such a secular demand, it should be met. And if as a result the army decides that there are too many orderlies and that each one should be required to serve longer, there is no problem. At the moment there is no such demand, except for annoyance towards the Jewish people. Therefore, this is a meaningless discussion.
By the way, there were once Nahal nuclear weapons, who also didn’t do full military service and no one tweeted. —————————————————————————————– Israel: You mentioned, if I’m not mistaken, that you believe yeshiva students should not do military service because the value of equality in burden is not worth the practical contribution they bring. What is that contribution? —————————————————————————————— Rabbi: The contribution is the preservation of the Torah. It seems to me that without any mysticism, it is clear that the Torah preserves our people as a defined and distinct entity. In my opinion, without it we have no existence.
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