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Covenants for Obeying the Mitzvot

שו”תCovenants for Obeying the Mitzvot
asked 3 years ago

What is the meaning of making covenants with the people of Israel that they would keep the Torah? Let’s say they didn’t make covenants, wouldn’t they be obligated? (And if they really aren’t, then how does that obligate us..)
And what is the meaning of commitment in this matter if God does not want it and I see a problem with doing things that contradict His will, then even without the covenant it is forbidden. And to say that God’s will is that whoever makes a covenant not eat pork, but pork itself is not absolutely forbidden, sounds strange to me because it makes Him have only one will to keep covenants. And if we say that the entire covenant is for reward and punishment, then even for that we can ask if He has set a punishment for eating pork. What is the point of the commitment in this? You want to receive punishment, eat, you don’t want to eat. I also don’t really understand what the covenant justifies more than the forbidden thing itself. What is the difference between the problem of breaking a covenant and breaking a covenant to eat pork after I know that He sees it as something wrong…


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0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 3 years ago
There are several questions here. A. The covenant also binds future generations, because the covenant was made with the people and not with the people who were present there. The same is true of state laws. The law binds the population even after two hundred years (unless it is changed), even though they were not there. The binding entity is the collective and not the specific collection of people, and therefore everyone who belongs to the collective is bound by it. B. The MLA in the Book of Kings asks what is the benefit of the oath at Mount Sinai to keep the Torah (sworn and standing. Not that I know where there was an oath there at all), since the obligation to keep the oath is also part of the Torah itself. The answer is that the obligation to keep the oath exists even without the Torah. It only adds a religious dimension to it (the prohibition of not doing or not doing). Therefore, the covenant is beneficial beyond the mere understanding that it is wrong to act against His will, and even if I do not have such an understanding after we have made a covenant, then it is not right to act in this way. C. It is clear that there is a problem with prohibitions even without the command, but without the command it is not a prohibition. There is no such law. I gave the example of the red traffic light. The punishment is not the issue. It is at most an indication that there is an obligation. Someone who acts only out of considerations of reward and punishment is a completely different discussion, and the covenant is really less relevant from his perspective.

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אבי replied 3 years ago

You wrote about the law "unless it is changed." Isn't the fact that most Israelis are not observant (let's assume for the sake of discussion that this is the case) a certain indication of such a change?

tx; replied 3 years ago

I agree, but in my opinion this does not answer the main difficulty..
The reason it is forbidden to transgress the covenant even without the Torah is because it is wrong. Call it wrong because God does not like people doing it or wrong because it is wrong (I think you need the A side according to your article "If there is no God, there is morality") Now, as soon as I know that God does not want us to eat pork and that it is wrong to do things that He does not like, then the matter is already problematic regardless of the obligation.
And regarding A. Do you think that when a people or a state accepts laws as a collective, the individual who did not commit and was not present there is morally obligated? In state laws, I understand it as a law that announces a punishment, but a moral problem that arises from the determination of others does not seem to me to exist.
Thank you.

דורון replied 3 years ago

I never manage to understand the analogy you make between state laws and religious law.
It is true that formally there is something similar here (in both cases it makes sense to preserve the framework) but on a fundamental level the difference is fundamental.
A state is a man-made framework and without accepting the authority of its laws it will fall apart. Religion, on the other hand, is based, or claims to be based, on eternal divine truth. Even if every believer turns their back on it, the truth will remain valid forever (at least according to their system).

From this enormous difference arise two additional differences that, in my opinion, completely undermine your analogy:

First, the authority of state laws is more severe, since obedience to them is an existential condition (if there is no obedience, the state will fall apart in contrast to religion);
Second, and in another sense, the authority of state laws is less severe, since they are not anchored in some “cosmic” truth like the one that religion claims to represent. Therefore, in the case of religion, you cannot say that any group of people in history (for example, the sages) has a principled, formal, or substantive authority that binds the public. Unless that group relies on the original religious truth. Let's say the Holy Scriptures. Of course, if that is what it does, it is not correct to say that it is the source of authority, but rather that the Holy Scriptures are the source of authority.

mikyab123 replied 3 years ago

There is another difference: "Medina" is written with a "m" and "God" begins with an "alef." Why are these differences relevant to my argument?

מיכי Staff replied 3 years ago

TX, I don't understand your question.

דורון replied 3 years ago

I was convinced.

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