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Haredim + Torah study for women + change in Halacha.

שו”תCategory: generalHaredim + Torah study for women + change in Halacha.
asked 2 months ago

Hello Dr. Michael Avraham, I am an ultra-Orthodox girl and I have a few questions for you:

  1. You made a claim on the website against Haredim who live off the state coffers. I couldn’t understand: Every person has the right to choose to live in poverty more if they want to. Why haven’t we heard similar claims from you about all Ethiopians who (in general) also earn very little and sometimes their education is barely enough to open a grocery store. In addition, the first to be harmed by this before the state coffers are the Haredim themselves, so stupidity maybe I understand how it can be called, but wickedness?
  2. I am very sorry for my ignorance of Talmud and am looking to fill in the gaps. I looked for some midrash for girls, but from my impression they are all shallow and do not in any way come close to the level of study in yeshivahs. Do you know of an institution for Gemara studies for girls at a reasonable level that strives for understanding the Talmud and not for presenting it from a “feminine angle” for the benefit of the participants?! Or am I doomed to remain in my ignorance?
  3. I understand that you are in favor of changing the halacha. My question to you is on what basis do you decide what can be changed and what cannot. The measure cannot be based on how much a particular halacha bothers us. Thank you very much – me.

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0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 2 months ago
  1. Anyone can live in poverty, but not throw themselves on the shoulders of the public. Let them remain poor. And this is not just an economic burden, but also a security, medical, and many other burdens. They receive all the services from the surrounding society. If only the Haredim would bear the costs of their poor choice. But they don’t. They impose the costs on others. Incidentally, the Haredim chose this path as a group and not individually, and therefore there is more room for criticism of them. I don’t know an Ethiopian who chose to be poor.
  2. yes. Yeshiva Dirisha in Kfar Etzion. There is also a midrash in Migdal Oz. There are frameworks for Haredi women, and you can inquire with Tehila Gadu, who teaches Gemara to Haredi women. I just saw an interview with Esti Shoshan with a Haredi woman who also says she studies Gemara (I don’t know in which framework).
  3. It is difficult to go into detail here. This is a complete mishnah that I have expanded on in several places. The main point is in my book Mahalachim Ben Homadim. There is a complete and detailed theory of change.

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אלי replied 2 months ago

Haredi, what are you basing your data on Ethiopians on? There is data in the tax office and about a third of young Ethiopians are getting a bachelor's degree (a quarter of them in universities) and there is also an increase in wages. There is more to do but at least they are showing an improvement trend unlike the Haredi.
Haredi will defame all other groups and their women as long as they justify their parasitism.

אני replied 2 months ago

Indeed, according to the data, there are more Ethiopians with academic degrees, but Haredim earn more on average. And the discussion here was not about academic degrees but about money. You don't cook food for children with academic degrees. In addition, I didn't slander anyone (unlike you), but presented the facts as they are. And they say Haredi and not Harediya.

אלי replied 2 months ago

Hi Haredi,

I don't know what you're basing this data on. What does it mean that Haredim are more profitable? Of those who work? Because only 50% of Haredi men work, many of the rest are supported by state benefits. According to the Kohelet forum, 90% of the Haredi public draws more money from the state than they give. I have no idea how much it is for Ethiopians, I estimate it's less.
What's this stupidity about degrees?! An academic degree allows for more options and likely raises the standard of living. An upward trend in this field will also be reflected in higher wages and productivity for the state.
The difference between Haredim and other groups is that Haredim sanctify poverty and ignorance compared to other communities for whom poverty is the default.
Last thing, the Haredim have a constant birth rate, they control the centers of power, the wise know the numbers and ignore the problem (in the knowledge and knowledge of Ka Amina). They are already 14% of the population and with such a parasitic lifestyle the country will not survive. It is at the level of an existential danger to the country.
They also say Haredi. Rest in peace

אני replied 2 months ago

Hello Eli,
1. You can play with the data endlessly and present it in a way that is more flattering to Ethiopians or to the ultra-Orthodox as you wish, as the person who said “Nature will admit to everything if only they are tortured enough” said. I don't care who is more and who is less. I argued that there is no right to criticize a person for choosing to live in poverty, so I brought up the Ethiopians who are currently living in poverty and I haven't heard any complaints against them. And despite what Miki said, I still don't understand how you can criticize the ultra-Orthodox on the grounds of immorality. If there is a sector in Israel that decides that the teaching profession is a supreme value and educates its children to engage only in that, at the expense of medicine, security, etc., I accept that you decide not to budget for them because it doesn't contribute to your country, but to criticize them with claims that they are immoral? Everyone chooses a profession according to their ideology and what suits their lifestyle. The ultra-Orthodox value a career less, sees family as the supreme value in their life and prefers a Haredi workplace in order to maintain their lifestyle. For these reasons, it does indeed contribute less to security and the economy. But it is ridiculous to attribute immorality to it.
2. Regarding the title - you are right.
3. Haredim do not sanctify poverty or ignorance, they simply value a career and general knowledge less. And there is a difference.
4. You claim that if the Haredim increase, it will be an existential danger to the country. This is an interesting claim. When it comes to Ethiopians, you are willing to be very optimistic: they will learn, the numbers are increasing. So first of all - there is also an increase in the Haredi public, slow but existing. Second - let's say that the Haredim are an existential danger to the country. And then what? Any ideological group of any kind charges prices from the rest of society, and you have no right to demand that it change its ideology because of this. And if I think that the political left is an existential danger to the country, do you think I have the right to demand that they change their ideology or at least show some consideration for the rest of the population and multiply less?
5. True, you can also say Haredi.

מיכי Staff replied 2 months ago

You are mixing things up. Everything was explained above and the rest is just typical Haredi insistence.

אני replied 2 months ago

Not everything was explained. You claimed that it is immoral for a group of people to leave the economic burden on the rest of the public, and I replied that it is the right of every public to choose how to work according to its ideology even if it imposes a burden on other groups (for example, those for whom teaching is a supreme value). (And the rabbi's right to decide that it does not contribute and not to budget for their institutions).

מיכי Staff replied 2 months ago

https://youtu.be/0LqTyROagPs?si=DgxlK4DKDcypJAd_

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