New on the site: Michi-bot. An intelligent assistant based on the writings of Rabbi Michael Avraham.

Matanita and Matanita is

שו”תMatanita and Matanita is
asked 4 years ago

Rav Yitzchak bar Yehuda studied with Rami bar Hama and went on to study with Rav Sheshet. His explanation was that Rami bar Hama answers him from a sabrah so that if a rabbi finds a contradictory mishna then the sabrah is nullified (“Damorah instead of Matnitah Lita.” Rashi). But Rav Sheshet answers him from a sabrah so that even if a rabbi finds a contradictory mishna, in the end there is a mishna here that contradicts a mishna. Zebachim 20:2.
 
It seems to imply that the chance of finding a contradictory Mishnah is equal both when the Rambam answers from an explanation and when the Rabba Sheshet answers from a Mishnah. And yet, a Ravi prefers to receive an answer that is a Mishnah. Why? After all, if there is a contradictory Mishnah, then in the end, the Ravi no longer knows what the truth is and is in doubt. And if he wants to understand the explanations in the matter and not necessarily the conclusion, then the Rambam’s explanation also probably has a place even if there is a Mishnah against it, and one must understand why the correct Mishnah holds otherwise.
 
It seems as if in the Mishnah and Mishnah these and those are the ones that are correct, meaning that according to your explanation there are correct considerations here and there, but we just don’t know what the practical conclusion is. But when an Amora is wrong about a Mishnah, Ribi believes that there are no such and such here, meaning that the Mishnah reveals that the Amora is also wrong in its own consideration, and not just that the weighty ruling is not according to his words. But that doesn’t sound reasonable.
 


Discover more from הרב מיכאל אברהם

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

Leave a Reply

0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 4 years ago
This can be interpreted in several ways. Perhaps he left Rambam because he thought he did not know the Mishnah or did not pay attention to them, and this is a slur in the eyes of the T.A.H. Beyond that, there is a difference between an explanation that arises out of thin air (because we imagine an action being performed?!) and an explanation that arises in order to resolve a contradiction between the Mishnayot, in which case the result is actually a Mishna. If this is the reconciliation between the Mishnayot, then the Mishnayot themselves state this explanation. And even if there is no resolution to the contradiction, you still have two conflicting Mishnahs and you must have an explanation on which to rely.

Discover more from הרב מיכאל אברהם

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

טירגיץ replied 4 years ago

It seems that this does not quite fit

This is the language of the Gemara there:
“Mar ki beina milta pishit li masbara ki meshkana matnitata parka la. Rav Sheshet ki beina milta minya pishit li masbara ki meshkana matnitata parka la. Rav Sheshet ki beina milta minya pishit li masbara ki meshkana matnitata parka la.
He said to him, beina milta minya daipishit lah keh matnitata (Rashi: Masbara ki meshkana matnitata parka la, ke taduk mitnitata ke tzu kuvatai)
Beina minya bishet lah keh matnitata bishet lah keh matnitata (Rashi: Masbara ki meshkana matnitata ke tzu kuvatai)
Beina bishet lah keh matnitata He said to him (Rambam to Riva): "There is no Tanya Tanya."
And why did he say "Read" (regarding sin) and if it was cooked in a copper vessel [and polished and washed with water], and even in a small vessel.

A. So it is clear that Rambam is observing the Mishna, of course. Only Rambam assumed that his explanations are also consistent with conditional sources that he does not know. I described the language "matnita" as a Mishna, but I was wrong, and apparently there in the Gemara this language also includes barayat (Tanya), and even in them Rambam is observing and canceling his opinion because of them.
B. And since Rambam is less knowledgeable in barayat (and not in Mishna, as I mistakenly wrote in the question), this is indeed what is written there. But that was not Ribi's direct claim. Ribi did not claim that Rambach answers from a source and therefore there is a greater chance of finding a contradictory conditional source, whereas Rav Sheshet answers from a source and therefore there is a lesser chance of finding a contradictory conditional source. Rather, Ribi claimed that in the event that a contradictory conditional source is found (to Rambach's explanation or to Rav Sheshet's other conditional source) there is a difference from his point of view. This means that Ribi's claim stands even if the chance of finding a contradictory source is the same both when Rav Sheshet answers and when Rambach answers.
C. You are suggesting that if Rav Sheshet answers from a conditional source and Ribi comes and finds a contradictory conditional source, then a harmonization is made that actually uses both sources. I don't think that's the interpretation, but that the contradiction is absolute and there is a dispute over the conditions, and one must choose or determine what the conclusion is. Because if it is possible to harmonize, then it will also be possible to reconcile the explanation of the Rambach. Or do you mean that even if it is possible to reconcile, they don't do it for explanations, but only for contradictory baraita? Well, then why? In any case, in the case illustrated in the Gemara there, did he boil a vessel loaded with salt and rinse it, it seems that the contradiction is absolute and there is no room for reconciliation.
D. I am left with your answer: "If there is no reconciliation for the contradiction, you still have two conflicting mishnayot and you have your explanation on which to rely." What does this mean? We are not talking about practical laws that the questioner fears transgressing prohibitions, and if he has a tanna to rely on, then he reassures himself that he was entitled to rely on that tanna, even if in truth the second tanna is right. Because there it is about cooking holy things in a vessel (but maybe we learn from this for other prohibitions?) and in Babylon at that time there were no holy things. And it is not my business to talk about prohibitions. Rather, it is simply about a Rabbi wanting to know what the halachic truth is. And that is why the question is - if the chance of finding a contradiction to Rav Sheshet's source is the same as the chance of finding a contradiction to Rambach's source, then in the end, asking Rav Sheshet and asking Rambach does not improve the Rabbi's chance of knowing the halachic truth.
I came back to focus the question on the last sentence in your answer.

מיכי Staff replied 4 years ago

It is not a question of trusting even though it is a mistake (which really only concerns practical halakhah) but of trusting that the interpretation is correct. Even if one is dealing with practical halakhah, there is still significance in supporting my interpretation from a baraita or mishnah.

טירגיץ replied 4 years ago

Do you mean that if this is a baraita against a baraita, then each person has a chance of being correct (let's say) 50%, whereas a reason against a baraita is, let's say, 1%? So a rabbi says that with Rav Sheshet he accepts a "certain" at least 50%, and with Rambach he does not?

מיכי replied 4 years ago

This is one possible model.
It is also possible that if there is a Tanna like you then the explanation is clearly correct but perhaps there are other considerations that need to be weighed.

Leave a Reply

Back to top button