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On criticism in light of the gang rape in Eilat

שו”תCategory: moralOn criticism in light of the gang rape in Eilat
asked 5 years ago

 
In light of the unfortunate incident in Eilat and in light of the demonstrations, support, and strikes that were backed by (almost) all Israeli citizens, including politicians from all ends of the spectrum, except for the Haredi, of course… After long columns about how harmful Haredi society is to society as a whole, I thought I would raise a space here for reflection and criticism about what the alternative is that Israeli society offers…
And what is the Rabbi’s opinion on all of this that seems contradictory and unclear?
I will first attach quotes from column 227 of the rabbi in the previous case that stirred up the country for a few days for those who remember the case in Cyprus.
below:
Our permissive society is to blame for quite a few of these cases.
People raise children in an atmosphere where sex is like eating a popsicle at a kiosk, if you feel like it, buy it and do it with whoever you want (just don’t get involved in an unwanted pregnancy, and if you do – please murder the worker as soon as possible: safe sex prevents murder, and unsafe sex justifies murder). Then they are surprised that young people don’t respect a woman’s privacy and violate the most intimate dimensions of her personality and soul. If these are indeed such intimate dimensions, isn’t it appropriate to educate young people, boys and girls, to reserve it for partners and not for everyone I meet at a bar when I’m in a friendly mood? Is a casual meeting at a bar, even if a date-rape drug wasn’t put in the girl’s drink, okay? If sex is so banal, we shouldn’t complain that people don’t see it as such a big deal. You can’t educate children that free sex is perfectly fine and there’s nothing special about it (and therefore you can do it at age 12 with whoever you want, as long as you’re careful to kill the consequences in time), but at the same time see it as some very deep internal violation of the autonomy and sexual intimacy of the raped person. In my clearly unprofessional opinion, it simply doesn’t work. It’s a double-edged sword.
To me, this is similar to a communist society that would raise its children to believe that money is nothing and that it actually belongs to everyone, and then would let out terrible cries of dismay at people who steal or embezzle money from others and disdain other people’s money. If money is not an issue, then it is not an issue. You can’t dance at two weddings. And again, even in such an education, stealing is forbidden, but I am against the cries of dismay of the Cossack who was robbed.
And further on your words there:

Victim blaming
I have already been accused of victim blaming in the past (for example, in column 225, on LGBT terrorism), when I said that women are sometimes guilty of contributing to rape and LGBT people are guilty of contributing to violence against them. Now I am adding insult to injury, and adding to the issue the The contributing fault of the society we live in. It too has contributing fault. Just as you can’t let women walk around naked on the street and then complain about rape, you can’t educate children and youth in an atmosphere of complete sexual permissiveness and even turn it into an ideology (and mock the dark religious people who make a big deal out of it), and then when the results come, whine and complain. I repeat that in these two arguments I do not intend to clear the perpetrators of guilt, but rather to point to the contributory guilt of other factors (the victim and society).

From your words it follows that, by and large, if it weren’t for the fear of being caught, almost everyone would commit such acts. The fear of being exposed prevents barbarity, not any ethical or moral code.
After all this, I will ask the mother:
A. Isn’t it better to have illiterate dogs as the lesser evil option (on the side that it is bad)?
on. How is it that sane people who care so much about women don’t understand once and for all that permissiveness and promiscuity are what cause all these horrors?!
third. Do you think that separation between the genders is indeed the most effective solution for society in general and for women in particular, and that this is the complete opposite of exclusion?
D. The pants protest You wrote https://mikyab.net/%d7%a9%d7%95%d7%aa?user=mikyab \”If someone is bothered by a performance even though it is in accordance with accepted norms, the duty to protect themselves is on them. Let them go to the doctor or resign. This is not the student’s problem\” How does your opinion differ from what you wrote here (slap above) that the victim has responsibility?
E. Aren’t feminist women’s organizations in their many forms a significant factor in these unfortunate results?
Thank you in advance.

(A thinking challenge for those interested, if rape were committed by ultra-Orthodox Jews… what would be the reaction of our tolerant society? Spoiler: they would bring from the threshing floor and from the winery to the moderates we have built countless proofs that this stems from the closure and exclusion of the sexes.)


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0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 5 years ago
Tam, your absurd analogies and difficulties, and your speculations about what would have happened if these were Haredim, are exhausting me a bit. I have not answered these klutzes several times, and after the break you came back to us again without any noticeable improvement. This is classic Haredi apologetics, and I read it over and over again and wonder what would have happened if the scholarship of these guys had looked like the ridiculous analogies and difficulties they raise in their apologetics. Our/your situation would have been pretty bleak. Where did you see a contradiction in my words? This is how you also complicate contradictions in the Rashba or Rambam? I’m not sure I would pay you the kollel scholarship (if you study in a kollel). From what I said, it doesn’t follow that everyone would do this if it weren’t for fear. Where did you see that in my words? Is that how you draw conclusions in the kollel as well? By Milga. You are confusing a position I present with my claims towards secular society and its consistency. If you read again I assume you will understand, and if not then even after my explanation you will not understand. I won’t answer all your other questions, if only because I don’t usually answer questions like “Which is better, a slur or a slur?”  

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תם. replied 5 years ago

Is it so far-fetched to conclude from this sentence that many would certainly do it if it weren't for the fear?!
Mainly referring to the parentheses about fetal murder.
People raise children in an atmosphere where sex is like eating a popsicle at a kiosk, if you feel like it, buy it and do it with whoever you want (just don't get involved in an unwanted pregnancy, and if you do - please murder the worker as soon as possible: safe sex prevents murder, and unsafe sex justifies murder). Then they are surprised that the youth does not respect the privacy of the woman and harms the most intimate dimensions of her personality and soul.

Regarding the apologetics and analogy about the Haredim, I certainly agree with a large part of your criticism of them, but I still think that overall (apart from the religious evil) they are the least harmful to society, and therefore I am sorry as someone who appreciates the wisdom of the rabbi that the rabbi ignores this, not to mention me. It is indeed logical that the issue hurts me because I am selfish within my own people, and it is certainly possible that I also suffer from classic Haredi apologetics, but to the same extent I think that the rabbi's respect also prevents a reaction that is not related to one criticism or another towards this society.

And if there is no contradiction between the permissiveness of the destruction of girls in the pants protest and that honest column, I do not deserve a comprehensive scholarship of about 430 measly NIS.

תם. replied 5 years ago

To clarify
Separating the genders as our ancestors did during the joy of the House of the Sower in the Temple is abomination.
The pants protest and women's organizations are a rip-off. Or the other way around of course.
And there is still no contradiction in the Rabbi's opinions.
If it were Rashba, I would blame the scornful Bocher at best.

shlomo dov ben zeev replied 5 years ago

I don't understand a single thing in the wake of the brutal rape. Why call it by any modern name but not stage culture? Aren't we to blame for being dragged along by secular commandments {I don't care if this is also practiced in the world} and the great trouble is that they laugh at the daughters of Jacob and don't bother to acknowledge the fact that every parent or most of them would be happy if some of the prohibitions and beautiful practices of the daughters of Jacob remained in their homes? Why doesn't anyone blame the improper permission for premarital relations? No one blames the philosopher who in every generation knows how to approve of the practice.

תם. replied 5 years ago

Shlomo, it turns out that everything that concerns the Haredim, or the Fifth Shul as they call it, causes the rabbi to have a strong reactionary emotion that fails to overcome common sense. As Rabbi Michi once said, what can I do? I'm not autistic, no one is perfect.

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