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On legumes and sourdough

שו”תCategory: HalachaOn legumes and sourdough
asked 5 years ago

Rabbi Michael Moedim,

I just saw my words from four years ago about legumes:

https://mikyab.net/posts/732

The things are reasoned and formulated clearly in your way; you are a brilliant logician and are also endowed with a rare ability to explain. If I understand correctly, your consistent position – in every area of ​​halakhic law – is that the halakhic law is the Babylonian Talmud, and we are allowed and should interpret them as we understand them and ignore everything that has been added through accepted interpretation since the signing of the Talmud to the present day.

In my opinion, this is not the accepted position among the Jewish people, at least for the most part. Prof. Tamar Ross has described the accepted position well in several places in her writings; in my opinion, she is right when she explains that with each generation, another layer of binding halakhic material is added, including the interpretation that each generation gives to the words of the generations before it, which also becomes part of the binding material and is then subject to the interpretation of the next generation, which will have to be subject to it. And Ronald Dworkin has already written that a legal system is like a chain novel; each chapter that is written is added to the material that came before it and the story continues from there, and it is not possible to skip it. This includes customs.

But that is not the point I wanted to bother you about; in all this it seems to me that I am not telling you anything new, but only describing the differences of opinion (and I hope that the description is correct). What I really want to write to you about is the origin of the custom. You accept, in essence, the argument that the historical origin is the fear that a grain of wheat got mixed in the sack of lentils (this is the recurring theme in your words). In my opinion, the historical origin is a method that was accepted by some of the first in France in the twelfth century, and that holds that lentils and other legumes create a stiff leaven (as far as I understand, although it does not contain keret, it does contain lau). You can see in the collection of sources, the Ritzab, source 10, source 16, the words of the Rabbi in source 19 when read according to the version given in source 21, source 26 (ignoring source 27), source 31. Incidentally, source 48 (which is late and could not have had time to influence the formation of the custom) believes that there is a concern about chametz in corn. In my opinion, the fact that we have never heard of a single sage who was involved in that secret meeting in which the decision to ban legumes was made indicates that no forum of sages ever ruled on the matter – but rather that the people, meaning our Ashkenazi brothers, acted out of concern about the system that holds that it is chametz, or, unfortunately, out of concern about chametz.

The collection of sources deals with the custom of legumes in general, and of course also includes a host of other flavors, which you are probably familiar with; for the sake of amusement, I have included another collection that includes a passage from the Viteri cycle, in which there is a parody stating that lentils and beans are not eaten on Purim, which perhaps hints at the flavor that legumes are not pleasing to the palate and are not suitable for the holiday.

And just a question: What community are you from? For some reason I remembered that you are from our Sephardic brothers, and from your essay it is implied that your old custom – which you are trying to get rid of – is to avoid legumes.

Holidays and times for fasting


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0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 5 years ago

Ready for joy,
Thank you for the compliments (I’m not sure I deserve them).
As for your point, I did indeed assume the current accepted reason here. You can also see it in the explanations given today (all those who report that even today they find leaven grains mixed with legumes. These discussions also came up on Talkbacks).
It is possible that what you describe was originally the basis for the custom (I have not yet read the sources you sent), but even if it is the basis, I do not see a compelling reason for it. And the fact is that there are many reasons for this custom, all of which come retrospectively, which suggests that none of them really hold water (I mention Rabbi Midan in his well-known adage that he knows 22 explanations for reading the Book of Ruth on Shavuot but only one for reading the Book of Esther on Purim. Maybe I brought that up there? I can’t remember anymore). After all, according to this method, legumes should be divided according to what creates hard leaven and what does not, and not according to the question of what was in their time and was included in the custom and what was not, or green legumes and what is not, and all the other divisions that are made in this context.
Regarding my halakhic position, you are indeed right. On the surface, this is not the accepted position, at least not on the declared level. But if you examine more deeply, you will see that it is indeed the accepted position. Ultimately, everything that follows the Talmud can be argued about, but things have inertia and different weights. It is not easy to change something that has become entrenched, but there is no mandatory authority here like the Talmud. However, in the kabbalah discourse, people enthusiastically declare that there are additions to the halakhic canon that are binding throughout the generations, and do not notice that these are only additions of weight (in the accepted legal terminology). I also accept this in principle. It is not just about semantics. Things are important, because in the event that there is a significant need to change, there is no reason not to do so. After all, there are clear sources for arguments of authority (do not deviate, accept the aliyya, perhaps accept the nation, etc.).
But on a principled level, I’m not so impressed, even if that were the accepted position. The more important question is what is right and not what is done in practice. What is desirable and proper and not what is currently happening. Although what was accepted has weight, of course. Like the law of “sugain da’lama” on the issue of error in judgment and the like (I will note that I also discussed this, and I argued that, contrary to the accepted approach, “sugain da’lama” is only a sign and not a cause. If there is something that is true and has not spread, it will have the same status, and the one who is wrong about it will be wrong in judgment. And if there is something that has spread and is not true, the one who is wrong about it will not be considered wrong. Like a foolish custom and the like). Beyond that, accepted positions are also created in some way. If I succeed in convincing the public, then my position will be the accepted one. Rabbi Blumentweig once said that in our relationship to custom there is an inherent contradiction, because custom is created by deviating from the accepted (the principle of law), and from the moment it is created there is an obligation not to deviate from it. This is the fixation of exceptions. And so on.

Happy Holidays and thanks again for the comments and compliments,


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מיכי Staff replied 5 years ago

By the way, in my sins I am a black Ashkenazi. Abraham is from Hungary (there are other Hungarian Abrahams, but as far as I know none of them are related to us).
Maybe my nervousness (in writing) looks like a Moroccan one. 🙂

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