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Prayer and Miracles

שו”תCategory: HalachaPrayer and Miracles
asked 6 years ago

Regarding prayers and miracles, I heard a place for well-being –
After all, man himself has true free choice – he is not affected by any legality. When he picks up a cup of coffee, there is no natural law that dictates whether it will be in his right or left hand (but that is under the control of man). It is possible that the swelling causes divine intervention that will cause it to be in the left hand, so that this intervention did not break the laws of nature.
Indeed, the action proceeds from that person’s choice, causing deterministic legality to cause another person to find a large sum of money, and thus his request for a livelihood was fulfilled. And this is done not by breaking the laws of nature and miracles. It is the planting of thought that is done within the natural framework.
What do you think?


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0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 6 years ago
This suggestion has already been made here before by Oren. I disagree, because just as God’s policy is not to violate the laws of nature, so He also does not violate man’s freedom of choice. And if you accept involvement that violates freedom of choice, why wouldn’t you accept a violation of the laws of nature? What is better than that?

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שלום replied 6 years ago

I think there's a divide. It's a miracle that breaks rules and it doesn't break any rules, right?

שלום replied 6 years ago

That is, we find that it is forbidden to pray for a miracle. Is planting a thought a miracle that breaks the rules? Not really. And to the point, I said to make a hard excuse for it. Doesn't work?

מיכי Staff replied 6 years ago

This breaks free will. This is also a law of creation that man determines his actions by choosing.
Why is the issue so serious in your eyes that it demands to be suppressed? It is clear that the sages lived in an ancient scientific concept according to which there is a miracle within the framework of nature and therefore they were wrong. What is the problem here?! They were wrong quite a bit in matters of nature. I can prove this from the issue itself, and I have even done so here in the past.

שלום replied 6 years ago

Okay, I see what you're saying. Out of curiosity, I'd love for you to write your proof of this here.

מיכי Staff replied 6 years ago

https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%A8-%D7%AA%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%AA-%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%95%D7%90

אילון replied 6 years ago

It is also my opinion that today the main intervention of the ’ It is the way of human choices. And what the Rabbi thinks violates free will is not. I believe that the choice between good and evil is between the choice not to choose (to let the animal in us dictate matters (and then it acts according to biological deterministic laws of stimulus response) and the choice to choose (i.e. to take the reins of the horse in our hands). However, even from the moment we choose to choose, what is actually done is dictated by laws external to us (the laws that dictate what is right to do at the moment) which we perceive by listening. These are laws that I call “superdeterministic” because on the one hand they do not dictate to us the actual choice but rather its content (the specific act that is done).
In any case, God can intervene in my favor, so to speak, in another person's choice by creating an awakening in his heart to choose and go out From his slumber, the island of Hirit. Indeed, it sends him reflections of repentance in his heart. A kind of eye-opening. It makes him see something he didn't see before. But it still doesn't concern his own choice. It does lower the level of free will that the Rabbi holds to be a little. But it's not terrible because anyway (within the framework of people from the Jewish people) the perception is that we are part of one organism, so it makes sense that the free actions (prayer and repentance) of one righteous person (one cell) will affect another less developed cell (evil. That is, one with less free choice. More like an animal than the first). These things have their origin in the Ari's books regarding the influence of righteous people on evil people. The Rabbi believes in the absolute autonomy of every person equally, but reality shows that this is not necessarily true. We see people with less free choice than us all the time. For example, criminals, every pip drives them crazy, meaning that their point of choice is lower than ours. And I argue that this is not just a difference In the position on the axis of choice, but also that someone who has a high choice point will also be encouraged to choose the good at his own choice point is “easier” more. That is, he faces fewer fantasies than the other. I see no reason why such people cannot influence the level of choice of those who are lower than them. There is a choice, but it is not absolute.

אילון replied 6 years ago

I also, of course, accept the possibility of intervention in nature, as I once discussed with the rabbi, except that this is a lower level of intervention. And it seems to me that in my life I have seen it happen several times in my case. In terms of "If a man pleases the Lord, even his enemies will be at peace with him."

מיכי Staff replied 6 years ago

As mentioned, if there is such involvement, I see no reason to interfere with nature, and then these excuses are not needed.

אילון replied 6 years ago

There are no excuses here, but since there is a degree of intervention, there is a much more accessible prediction here for anyone who would like to see such intervention. In terms of “taste and see that the Lord is good”

אילון replied 6 years ago

That is, since intervention in nature claims not to see, then this is the place to see (if you believe there is something to see).

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