Proof that there is no free choice
Okay, I wrote that this is proof that there is no free will, but the truth is that this is not accurate. I want to make a claim that bothers me about free will, which Judaism relies on when it claims a moral and just mechanism of reward and punishment in the afterlife. This claim indirectly shows that there is no free will, or to put it more precisely, that even if there is free will, it is clearly unjust to punish us for our sins.
I saw your last debate with Aviv Franco, and you didn’t claim that you had proof that there is free choice, but that the claim that there is free choice has not been refuted. Now, let’s assume for the sake of my argument that you are two hundred percent right, that the claim of free choice has never been refuted. Let’s also say that they even proved that there is free choice.
As a Jew, I never chose to be born a Jew, and in fact, according to the belief in free choice, my very birth depended on the free choice of my parents. How exactly is this a free choice if I never chose to participate in this “game” of free choice and reward and punishment? Of course, one can come up with countless conspiracy theories in an attempt to save Judaism and claim that God asked our souls before they came into the world (after granting them free choice) whether they wanted to “play” this free choice game or not. But I will go further and claim more than that – even if that happened, in order for there to be free choice, I should have the option to *choose* not to participate in this game anymore. But there is no such option according to Judaism. It does not exist. There is an option of suicide, but it is considered a serious sin, in fact a very serious sin. How is it possible, then, that there is free choice when I do not have the option to choose not to choose? I’m not talking about becoming a deterministic machine (which would be problematic in a world of free choice), but about not living at all. Not living at all without dying by harming all my relatives who care about me, and without committing suicide and going after that to unspeakable torment in hell. The option simply does not exist. As surprising as it is, I would choose it if I had the option. On my part, God would leave no trace of me (but that my relatives would not be harmed by it, let’s say He would turn back time and prevent my birth), on my part, God would annihilate my soul – the option should exist. But it does not. Therefore, even if there is free choice in everyday life, I believe that there is no justification for God’s punishment in the afterlife. On my part, you could even call it giving up. I know that I will not resist the temptations of sin anyway, so why let me choose if I don’t want to? This is not free choice, it is absolute coercion, and in my opinion also abuse.
One last note – my argument is of course different from claiming that ‘I can’t levitate so there is no free choice’. There is no connection between the two. The fact that I can’t levitate (or perform any other supernatural action) does not pose a problem for the fact that I am being punished for choices that I had free choice in. The fact that I did not choose to choose, on the other hand, does pose a problem and shows that God is no less abusive to some of us.
I can’t understand this strange logic. First, who said we have a choice about whether to be Jews? My libertarian argument has nothing to do with Judaism. And even if we do have a choice, it may be about other issues and not about whether to be Jewish or not. I also don’t have a choice about whether to fly or be a bird or a fish. I am what I am and I have no choice about that. So what? I have a choice about other issues. No one claims that everything is in our hands. The libertarian argument is that there are things that are in our hands (and some that are not), unlike determinists who claim that nothing is in our hands.
Your division against levitation is irrelevant. I am being punished for shaking on Shabbat. I am forced to do it because I cannot levitate.
First, this logic wasn't meant to be strange – it's actually something I thought about and bothered me. Maybe my brain is strange. I don't know. Maybe it's also a compliment. It doesn't really matter to me.
I'm afraid you misunderstood the argument.
My argument focuses on the fact that we didn't choose to be born Jewish and enter this game of free choice in which we will ultimately receive rewards and punishments for our choices. It's clear to me that we didn't choose to be Jewish and that not everything is in our control, even according to the belief that there is free choice.
I linked this to Judaism because I am Jewish and you are a Jewish rabbi who also deals with Jewish matters.
Now, it's clear to me that not everything is in our control and not in our hands. I made it clear that the fact that not everything is in our hands (the inability to levitate, for example) does not constitute a problem for the just reward and punishment mechanism that Judaism talks about. But there is one thing that is not in our hands and the fact that it is not in our hands constitutes a problem for the reward and punishment mechanism that is based on free choice. This thing is the impossibility of not choosing and in fact “stop” this game of free choice for which we will then receive reward and punishment.
God took and threw us into this world with free choice. But the throwing was done without free choice. We were thrown without being asked. Hence, even if I sinned (when I had free choice) there is no logic in punishing me. Because I did not choose to be thrown. This is God's “problem”, and there is no justification based on free choice for punishing us.
It may not be clear, this is really a unique claim that I have never heard of before and I thought about it completely myself.
I understand and I have no choice but to go back again. So what if you didn't choose? I didn't choose the moral rules either. They are forced upon me, and yet if I violate them I will be sued.
None of this has anything to do with Judaism. I claimed that there is a choice that is not related to Judaism or the Torah.
So what if you didn't choose? That contradicts the justification for punishment because of your free choices. You didn't choose to choose, and you had no way to stop.
To be clear – I understand that there is no connection to Judaism. No connection between anything you've ever said about free choice and Judaism. I'm linking it to Judaism because it claims there is free choice and because it poses a problem for me as a Jew.
If you don't see a problem here, that's yours.. Anyway, my problem with it is solid.
There is a difference between "the system of laws that binds you" where there is no need for your "choice" in it – it binds because it binds, the rules of the format.
Now there is a separate discussion – the system binds and I broke the law – Can I be punished? If the purpose of punishment is not deterrence, etc. but rather doing justice, then the legitimacy to punish is only in cases where the person controlled his actions.
In short, two different levels of discussion
I didn't fully understand. But my argument is fundamentally different from arguing that states have no moral right to punish criminals because they didn't choose to be born under those laws. The laws of states are intended to protect the public and there is therefore a moral obligation to enforce them. God's commandments, on the other hand, do not harm anyone if I do not keep them (not standing up to pray, for example), and I did not choose to choose. Hence, even if I sinned, God has no justification for punishing me. The choice is not truly free…
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