New on the site: Michi-bot. An intelligent assistant based on the writings of Rabbi Michael Avraham.

Questions about arbitrator laws

שו”תQuestions about arbitrator laws
asked 10 months ago

Hello, Your Honor,
I would like to ask a few questions regarding arbitrator rules:

  1. Using a ladle to scoop soup on Shabbat :
    When I remove soup with a ladle, and the ladle contains a mixture of liquid (broth) and vegetables, and I want to slightly dilute the amount of liquid but still leave a significant amount of liquid in the ladle along with the vegetables, is it permissible to press the ladle against the side of the pot so that some of the liquid comes out, thus leaving less liquid in the ladle but still with the vegetables?

Can it be argued that in such a case there is no “selector” here, since there is still liquid left in the ladle, and thus I clearly show that I do not intend to treat the liquid as “waste”, but rather as part of the overall portion?

  1. Relying on extenuating opinions in times of stress :
    I understand that there are opinions in halakha (although not the main opinions) that believe that there is no prohibition against drinking liquids.
    In the case of a time of stress, can these opinions be relied on? For example, if we are staying with Shabbat-observant friends who are not familiar with the details of the laws of the Burer, and I notice that they are performing an action that is considered “Burer” according to the accepted opinion, but I know that if I warn them, they will not change their ways and may even be harmed.
    In such a case, given the value I see in hosting friends and maintaining their respect, is it possible in that situation to rely on the mitigating opinions that there is no prohibition against drinking liquids?

 


Discover more from הרב מיכאל אברהם

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

Leave a Reply

0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 10 months ago
See a review here: https://ph.yhb.org.il/01-11-12/ He forbids (see around note 13 and itself). Not entirely sure I agree but I’m not sure. In large pieces he eases: https://ph.yhb.org.il/01-11-13/ I don’t know what you mean by choosing liquids. But if there is a mitigating opinion, there is room for leniency. From your perspective, they trust it and you respect that. It’s not that you are doing the prohibition, it’s that they are, so if they have something to rely on, why comment?  

Discover more from הרב מיכאל אברהם

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

השואל replied 10 months ago

Thanks to the rabbi for the answer

I read the laws of the Borer in the Pennai Halacha
I understand the Pennai Halacha differently from the Rabbi (Michael Avraham)
The Pennai Halacha states
“But he is permitted to lift the ladle out of the soup close to the side, in such a way that only the vegetables and noodles are lifted in the ladle, because he does not do this as a choice in the vessel but as a way of taking the food”
I understood from what is written here that as long as the ladle is in the pot, he is permitted to tilt it a little to remove the water.
(Rabbi Melamed did not write to tilt, but as far as I understand, as long as the ladle is in the pot, it is possible to filter it further
Maybe I just didn't understand)
Did I miss something?
My question is also a little different from the case that Rabbi Melamed describes, because in the Pennai Halacha, as far as I understand, he deals with the case where you only want the vegetables, while my case is where you find a lot of soup with vegetables and then dilute it with a spoon and press it against the side.
So that in the end there is soup and vegetables but less soup.

Is there even room to allow even more and to claim that even after the ladle is out of the pot, it is permissible to return it to the pot and attach it to dilute the soup so that there is some soup left and also vegetables but less soup?

Regarding the choice of wetness, here is what is written on the Kosher website at the following link
https://www.kosharot.co.il/index2.php?id=42017&lang=HEB

Under the section “Choice of wetness”
“Some say that there is no choice of wetness and some say that there is a choice of wetness”.

I very much identify with the rabbi's practical approach and with the things he wrote
” But if there is a mitigating opinion, there is room for leniency. From your point of view, they trust it and you respect it. It is not that you are doing the prohibition, but they”
I think it is right and appropriate to try as much as possible to find reasons to eat at someone else's place as long as it is within reasonable halachic limits.

מיכי Staff replied 10 months ago

You didn't quote the passage I was referring to. He writes there that if there is soup left in the ladle, you shouldn't pour it back into the pot because it's waste from his perspective. Apparently he's forbidding what you asked. I'm not sure he's talking about soup left in the ladle when there are vegetables in it, and that's exactly what your prohibition is, or that he's talking about soup alone, but I don't see any difference in that. I'm also not sure I agree with the prohibition itself.
Regarding the choice of liquid, you're talking about a solid in a liquid, like vegetables in soup. I didn't understand what you meant. In any case, I answered.

השואל replied 10 months ago

I feel like a convert to the laws of Borer and at a relatively older age I have started to improve in this regard.
My immediate environment does not strictly observe these laws and I read all the laws of Borer from Pnini Halacha a while ago and also researched on the internet but many points are not clear to me.

I want to check that I completely understood your answers

1. In your opinion, in the case of diluting soup that remains in the ladle, both vegetables and soup, this is not Borer and it is permissible.
2. Regarding returning a spoon, in Pnini Halacha it is written
“One should not pour the unnecessary soup from the ladle back into the pot”
The Rabbi wrote
“I am not sure I agree with the prohibition itself”
So in practice, do you permit the matter and would you pour the water back?
Or would you not do so because you are hesitating over the doubt?
Personally, I did not understand the Rabbi's teaching that if you pour soup from a ladle into a bowl, something will remain in the ladle. It seems strange to me that you cannot return it to the soup.

And I also want to thank you personally, Rabbi, for answering every question.
I asked several questions and learned a lot from the Rabbi's answers and searching the answers on the website.
In addition, I am fascinated by the Rabbi's series on YouTube,
"Innovation and Tradition."
I have gone through most of the lessons.

מיכי Staff replied 10 months ago

I wrote that I am not sure about that. But this is a deliberate choice and there is room for leniency.
Regarding returning soup from the ladle to the pot, I explained that I am not sure that is what he meant. Indeed, it does not seem like there should be a problem with that.

Leave a Reply

Back to top button