Regarding idolatry: One who makes himself a god but does not command any worship.

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asked 2 years ago

Peace and blessings,
A disagreement arose among the members during a regular study of Tractate Sanhedrin, and we decided that we would accept the Rabbi’s discretion on the matter:
Doubt: Does someone who says that he is God or the Son of God, but does not command that he be worshipped in any way, commit himself to the very statement or not?
My friends say that the very statement that he is God or the son of God is idolatry and is considered incitement or slander, and therefore requires stoning according to the law of the Jewish People – and in their opinion, “it is a sin to say that this is the law.”
And I thought not, (part of the reasons for the change in Sanhedrin 7:10), because what is there in all the “he said”? There is nothing in it, and after all, he is like other fools in the world.
And only in the law of blasphemy did we find a punishment for uttering it with the mouth alone, but in idolatry one must perform one of four actions and thought alone is not enough.
(which is only punished by God, if at all) or merely a statement to punish in a court of law, such as execution on charges of idolatry.
Waiting for the Rabbi’s discretion 🙂

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מיכי Staff answered 2 years ago

I didn’t get to understand what you meant by my words. Even those who disagree will retract because I said so? But he doesn’t think so. It seems to me that you in the F.A. want to ask my opinion and not receive a halachic ruling from me. In my understanding, there is no obligation to punish without an act (not necessarily four works, if it is the way of working it, then with any similar action). A statement, no matter how serious, does not require punishment. Incidentally, not because he is a fool, since you can say of every worker of the law that he is a fool and exempt him from punishment. This is a civil law of punishment that there is no punishment without an act. And in particular, in the law of the Sabbath, the prohibition is also on work, not just punishment. Heresy is not a law. Although lowering and not raising certainly also pertains to a statement (because it is not a punishment). Indeed, the words of Radbaz are known regarding the one who said that Moses our Lord was God, that they wanted to lower him into the pit and not raise him, and told them to leave him because he was violent in his opinion (this is what he thinks). Incidentally, such a statement is not considered inciting and repelling, since the inciter must incite to work. Well, the defendant was saved at the last minute. Let him transfer 100,000 NIS to me and we’ll close the matter.

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ניב replied 2 years ago

Thanks for the answer.
Indeed, those who did not believe as I did (that such a statement is not punished) read your words and repeated them, and if you can call it that, accepted the halachic ruling that the rabbi wrote.

I wrote that the one who says he is God is a fool: to see a human being with all his physical ‘virtues’ and to claim that he is God is clear nonsense. On the other hand, to attribute divinity to a force in nature - say the sun - is also nonsense, but a superficial understanding may mislead and lead to such a thought, since it has the power of heat, size in space, etc.; to make the mistake of thinking that perhaps it has some power (= divinity) can also be said to be mistaken in his opinion, but for such a mistake the Torah strictly and punishes.

Regarding the excellent example from Radb”z: Does the rabbi know if there are poskim who disagreed with Radb”z on this?
Regarding the accused – we will update him 😉

Yesher Kawh

מיכי Staff replied 2 years ago

I don't know of anyone who wrote against the Radbz.