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Second vessel, swallowing in vessels, cooking utensils

שו”תCategory: HalachaSecond vessel, swallowing in vessels, cooking utensils
asked 2 years ago

Hello Rabbi,
The rabbi divided the trilogy into three stages: determining the reality of an expert, and then two stages, a value threshold and determining a halachic norm.
 
A question occurred to me, regarding the question of whether a second vessel boils or not, the Torah says that the difference between a square meter and a square meter is between cold and hot sides. My question is, shouldn’t we go to a laboratory to check whether water in a second vessel boils or not? Or is it possible to prohibit it without checking in a laboratory?


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מיכי Staff answered 2 years ago
Such questions arise a lot in relation to disputes in reality. But in most of these cases, there is no dispute in reality. The question is what is called cooking, and to what extent is this cooking prohibited on Shabbat. The dispute is not in reality but in the halakhic question. The same is true in relation to your question. There is no way to test in a laboratory because we do not know the amount of cooking that is prohibited, and that is probably where we disagreed.

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יצחק replied 2 years ago

The first ones are not sure whether this is realistic or halakhic, I'm trying to understand the basis of their reasoning, why would cooking be a "halakhic boundary" and not reality?!

We choose a minimum level of activity that humans eat, and check whether water in a second vessel can cook the product to the level of activity that we defined.

Going in the direction of having an abstract boundary of cooking that the Torah obligated us to and we don't know how to define it, it comes out complicated and sometimes frustrating and confusing.

The Torah was given to humans and they can know whether there is cooking or not.

מיכי Staff replied 2 years ago

Because there are different levels of cooking and there is no objective way to define the required level of cooking. That is why they say boundaries from the rabbinic tradition and this is a halakhic line.
Try to think about the definition of concepts like baldness (up to a few hairs) or pile (up to a few stones). There is no way to define them objectively.
Indeed, the Torah was given to humans and precisely because of this, humans define its boundaries.

בוריס כרשינא replied 2 years ago

The Torah was given to humans, not to laboratories

How do you cook?
Every lady knows that in heaven there is a pot on the fire, the first vessel is for cooking, the second is for heating, less for cooking, and that is what is important.
What is the temperature in the laboratory?
No housewife knows, she is not interested, and it is not important to her.
It is important to her that it is cooked and that it is in the first vessel.

יצחק replied 2 years ago

It's interesting that some of the first ones, the Hazon Ish and the burnt-hands of the life-giving Adam, come to say, "A second vessel is cooking," see this, and the first ones who share, are actually disconnecting from reality and giving an explanation, and I ask why? Poke Hazi, or as you said Boris, ask the housewife.

מני replied 2 years ago

Just for your information, I've seen quite a few cooking channels, and the explanation of hot/cold sides is quite correct. Many times a 10 degree drop in temperature impairs the ability to cook. I saw a video that showed frying/cooking something (pieces of meat) and when they started adding it to oil/water, their temperature dropped from 98 to 92, and that itself required stopping adding pieces of it to the pan until the temperature rose again, otherwise the pieces wouldn't cook. You have to remember that the main part of the cooking is inside the piece of meat, not just searing the shell of the piece. When you transfer boiling water from one cup to another, the temperature will drop by much more than 6 degrees. The drop can reach up to 20 degrees. We don't feel a difference because the difference between 98 and 78 is not significant in terms of the immediate pain we suffer from the burn. But from the point of view of preparing food, it is very significant.

Israel koren replied 7 months ago

The easiest test is cooking an egg. If we take an egg and pour it into water in a second vessel, will it cook to at least the state of a soft-boiled egg? This of course depends on the amount of water relative to the egg so that the heat of the water is maintained, at the temperature of the egg, in the second vessel how much heat it will draw from the water. Just for your information, the egg yolk begins to coagulate at 65 degrees

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