Sermons of Chazal

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asked 5 years ago

Greetings to the esteemed Rabbi
There are many Gemaras that require the commandment of a rabbi from verses. This is strange and I have heard people say that it is a mere reference, but from the discussions of the Gemara it seems that it is serious. The Gemara asks what should anyone do who says that the sermon of another is true, and in general what is meant by reference?

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מיכי Staff answered 5 years ago

For the purpose of an effective discussion, it is useful to bring a concrete example. As a rule, when there is negotiation, this is an indication that it is not a reference, although due to pressure, the first and last sometimes write that it is a reference nonetheless. But it is possible that this was originally a complete sermon, and they came to the conclusion that it is a reference due to one difficulty or another (and this conclusion does not necessarily have to be accepted). Sometimes there is also a dispute as to whether it is a reference or not. Regarding the question of what an asmakhta is, simply put, it is just an aid to memory or literary expression. But some rishonim (like the Ritva, for example) wrote that there is something essential about an asmakhta: it expresses the spirit of the verse even if we do not actually learn from it.

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איש לא ברור replied 5 years ago

Thank you
Here is an example, the Gemara in Ketubot, page 7, brings a verse for the blessing of grooms, which is a rabbinic verse from the source of Israel. Now there is a negotiation there, what will the second man do with the verse, and it is not understood with this reference, Balama.

מיכי Staff replied 5 years ago

This is an example of a contradiction. First, these are verses from the Nakh. Second, it is clear that this is a midrash and not an asmakhta. Therefore, one really asks what each of the participants requires from these verses.
Beyond that, the Gemara mixed aggadic midrash here, and therefore in general I would say that these discussions and requirements are mainly for the glory of the recommendation and not that there are any real difficulties or excuses here. And just a way to present the various sermons. In particular, see there regarding Amon and not Ammoni, which is simply from the LBM and not a midrash (see Yevamot Ez-Ez. Although see in the Hates in the Ketubot there).

איש לא ברור replied 5 years ago

What is meant by the glory of the recommendation?

מיכי replied 5 years ago

They want to present these things, and they hang it on verses, and even build a discussion about what a certain wise man would do with an unknown verse, etc.

קובי replied 5 years ago

How can we trust the sermons of the sages if it is known that there are different versions of the Bible that are even older than the Masoretic version we have? After all, it is possible that those sermons from the Proverbs are based on incorrect words that originated in error?

מיכי Staff replied 5 years ago

It is possible. We follow the evidence as in any doubt in halakhah. Beyond that, the version that existed before Chazal is older than the one before us.