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Standing in the Sanhedrin 8.

שו”תCategory: Talmudic studyStanding in the Sanhedrin 8.
asked 8 years ago

Hello Rabbi Michael.
It would have been appropriate to include in my opening remarks, while taking the opportunity for minimal gratitude, service and praise for the excellent content on your site (and outside of it, and even before it existed), for your direct and reasoned style, and for the high accessibility and availability (great power to the site maintainers as well). We are happy that we have won. Unfortunately, time suppresses what the heart desires, and I will have to settle for these general sentences for now (I always prefer to be more specific, so that it does not appear to be just accepted etiquette, but rather that it is clear that it comes from a real place and so on). Thank you very much.
Following the fascinating article on validity (a Platonic view of validity), I was wondering what you think about the issue in Sanhedrin 8. – the Amoraim’s positions on the disagreement between the Sages and the Rabbis on the issue of calling out a bad name (in general, at the beginning of the Sanhedrin the Amoraim came with a lot of energy. For every question and difficulty there are many answers and excuses…). Apart from Ula and Rava (Rava), according to whom it is perhaps possible to explain that the Mishnah came to pronounce a principled law that is expressed specifically in the issue of calling out a bad name, the rest of the Amoraim base their disagreement on general issues (just warning, warning a friend, etc.), and my questions relate to their excuses:

  • It is very difficult for me to see here a model of principled law that simply needs to be isolated to “laboratory conditions.” This is a complete displacement of the subject of the discussion.
  • In terms of language, context, and structure, is it really clear to say that they disagreed, when the entire Mishnah deals with the number of judges needed for certain types of cases? (For example, if a mere warning requires death, then we will consider the case of a mere warning, and they will disagree on whether in this case there is a death requirement or not. The number of judges is a secondary and necessary consequence of the principled discussion, which is not at all specific to the one who brings bad name.) This question does not only concern the model proposed by you, but also the words of the Gemara themselves.

Thank you very much and many blessings!


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מיכי Staff answered 8 years ago
Greetings, peace. Chen Chen. Regarding the Sanhedrin issue, any such question requires a study of the issue, and I don’t have enough time. Therefore, I will write from scratch. Abaye’s explanation specifically speaks of a person who brings bad slander, since the law of the Motzeshar is unique in that it has both a monetary dimension and a dimension of lives. And this is the debate about whether we discuss the dimension of his money in three or also in 23. Now think about which drawing this will be expressed? And they say that it is in such a situation that one is obligated only in money. For example, when one forbids it without mentioning the punishment. Although the Sages claim that there is no drawing in which there is only a discussion of money without lives, because such a warning is sufficient for lives as well. It is true that their disagreement is about the warning, but for our purposes they disagree on whether the Motzeshar is allowed to discuss only money or not. And so it is in all the explanations presented below (a woman who is a prostitute, a warning about whippings, etc.). It is true that there were two options before the subject to explain the disagreement of the conditions:
  1. They disagree about whether when discussing only the money, I should say 23 (because there is a side of souls in this. As if the early ones thought that there is no action in it, if there is, then the essence of going through the action is flawed. And there are methods that are exactly the opposite).
  2. They disagree about whether there is even such a painting that discusses only money.
The Gemara chose option 2, probably because it was clear to it that if there were a picture of Mammon without souls, the Sages would admit to discussing three. But based on both options, it seems to me that my explanation of the mechanism of the Okimata is also appropriate here.

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