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Studying the Law of the Untouchables from the Seventh Day

שו”תCategory: Talmudic studyStudying the Law of the Untouchables from the Seventh Day
asked 5 years ago

Peace and blessings!
I had an argument with a number of people and would love to hear your opinion. In Yerushalmi Pa’ah (P”6 Halacha 1), a dispute is presented between R. Y. and R. R. regarding the origin of the term “faqar-seventh” or “pah”. The commentators of Yerushalmi disagreed as to whether the Gm is satisfied with the origin of the property of the faqar or whether Yerushalmi discusses the exemption of the faqar from donations, tithes, and akhmal. The discussion revolves around the side according to which Yerushalmi discusses the origin of the concept of faqar:
For the sake of argument, it appears that if the seventh is a divine act and an act in which God is the doer [God forsakes], then it is not possible to learn from it the concept of a defilement that is the work of man. Even though the mechanism is the same [the object is forsaken], the mere fact that God is capable of a certain thing does not constitute evidence that man can even perform it. And if that is so difficult for the aforementioned Jerusalem Bible, it would be easier to learn from it the concept of a defilement that man acts upon through his actions. How can God be taken as a model? After all, He can do things that man cannot do at all?
We will expand on our words: For the sake of argument, behind most sermons, even those based on interpretations and the like, there is a logical basis leading to the conclusion that this is the sermon that should be taught. This is especially common in midrashic studies where different sages demand different sermons from the same interpretation. From this, we can conclude that each sage had a number of options before him and he chose precisely the option that he said because, in his opinion, according to the explanation, it was appropriate to say so. In other words, behind every sermon there is solid logic, and if I am not mistaken, you have also elaborated on this in several places.
So, as long as there is no logical basis for the parallel between the unbeliever and the seventh, there is no reason to demand this sermon. After all, the Jerusalemite was probably faced with other alternatives. They could have studied this for other departures, in which it is possible to say that the doer is God, the Holy One, or they could have taken the sermon in a completely different direction, not necessarily for studying a different departure, but for studying a different type. And why should they take God, the Holy One, as a model? After all, He can do things that man cannot do at all?
Therefore, from the very fact that the Rabbi did not see this sermon as problematic, we must conclude that, similar to the seventh, even in the case of desertion, God, blessed be He, applies the laws, and man, through his actions, only prepares the ground. Indeed, many Aharonim say that desertion is a law by virtue of the Torah.
In both Sheveit and Faker, the Torah stated that in reality x, God will apply chalot. God does not need man’s consent, but rather stated that in this reality He chooses to apply chalot as He chose to apply at the beginning of Sheveit. That is, the need is not for man’s approval but for a certain reality that God defined in advance “and by chance” in Faker, this reality depends on man, but this is an external and not essential thing.
Many have disagreed with my words, and I would love to hear your opinion.


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0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 5 years ago
It’s really not necessary, in my opinion. It could also have been explained to the Beit Ya’akov that the Yerushalmi is comparing the desertion of God, the Blessed, with the desertion committed by us. It’s not a question of whether he can desert. He can also make the entire world disappear, and the mouth that forbade is the mouth that permitted. The question is whether he recognizes the mechanism of desertion, and if so, then there’s no reason why we can’t do it. I will explain further. After all, there is no physical obstacle here that only someone who is omnipotent can overcome. Humans can also move their lips and say, “This field is deserted.” The question is only whether it is beneficial or not. But in this matter there is no reason to divide between God and humans. If God does this, then apparently it is defined, and hence desertion is a beneficial thing. What’s more, it is impossible to make the B’I’T difficult by virtue of certain opinions that are controversial in the Jerusalem commentary.

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מן החרכים replied 5 years ago

If I may ask, what exactly is the distinction between a person's loss and a loss from the one who is a slave? It is certainly possible that even in the case of a regular slave, the mechanism is that when a person abandons, then the Lord applies the loss of the slave. In other words, the abandonment on the part of the person is the condition (situation) and not the cause, and what truly causes the loss is the will of God. Just as during the year of Shemitah, God performs an afqa'ta from the Lord (to look), so the moment a person abandons, God performs an afqa'ta on his part. [And in cases where it is said in the name of the Merciful, afqa'ta as if lost from a person or similar things, it means that the beginning was not started by a person.]

מיכי Staff replied 5 years ago

The distinction is exactly what you described. If you assume that in the end something is done by God, then of course the difference is only in the question of what is the trigger for God's action.
(By the way, you assume legal realism here, meaning that the lack of a legal status is not just a legal status but also something that happens in reality.)

מן החרכים replied 5 years ago

A. That is, to the questioner's difficulty and according to his assumption that one cannot learn from the actions of God for the actions of man, can one reply that the Habib would say that even a financial failure is actually a divine trigger and that everything a person does is just the trigger? Adding transparent components is free.

B. In the wording, I expressed myself as if I were assuming legal realism, but the content is apparently the same in statuses as well. Someone or something is the everyday reason why the status was determined as of a certain time. Isn't that so?

מיכי Staff replied 5 years ago

A. Yes. Assuming that God in general needs to do something here.
B. No. The reason is speech and will. The result can only be a status that is a theoretical matter and not any reality.

השואל replied 5 years ago

Regarding the words of ‘Man HaChrech’, this is exactly what I said that we would have to say according to the המבבית, and this was my intention in terms of sickness by virtue of the act and not by human power.
Regarding the words of Michael Avraham, I would be happy to ask a question. Of course, I am aware of the possibility that you raised, according to which the Holy One recognizes the existence of this mechanism, but this is a body of doubt for the answer. After all, one of the difficulties with renunciation is that there is no act of ownership in it, and I wanted to argue that the very fact that the Holy One did not need an act of ownership, we cannot know for sure whether this is because He recognizes the mechanism, or whether it is because He is omnipotent. Because this remains in doubt, there is no way to learn from the Holy One, unless we claim that the renunciation of money is also an afqatah demalka

מן החרכים replied 5 years ago

[You're right, I didn't notice. Maybe you could point out the issue: Does a person apply the laws in a state of neglect or in situations where a person tries to apply the laws, God hurries in and applies them Himself? (Apparently, one could also say that it is not God who applies the laws, but rather God who strikes with a great spiritual hammer, and it is this blow that applies the laws.)]

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