New on the site: Michi-bot. An intelligent assistant based on the writings of Rabbi Michael Avraham.

The Breslav’s instruction to call upon the dead during prayer

שו”תThe Breslav’s instruction to call upon the dead during prayer
asked 7 years ago

Rabbi Nachman taught…and therefore ‘he warned his people to say before the prayer: The wording that the Breslov Hasidim use today is: “I bind myself in my prayer to all the true righteous of our generation, and to all the true righteous, dwellers of the earth, saints who are in this land, and in particular to the righteous foundation of the world, a stream flowing from the source of wisdom, our Rabbi Nachman ben Figa, may their merit protect us and all Israel, Amen.’
“And so Rabbi Nathan of Breslov wrote: ‘And his whole intention in his work and prayer is that the work and prayer reach the righteous and he will raise it to the right place, and then he will be saved from all the dangers on the way of the prayer’s ascent.'”
“And he also said: ‘Any person in the world, even the worst and most corrupt sinner, who comes to my grave, gives a penny in charity for me, and says the ten psalms, then I will turn all the heavens over for him, I myself will pull him out of hell’!” (Sichoths of the Ran 141)
“And his disciple Rabbi Nathan wrote about this: ‘For there are people who have fallen so far in their sins that evil has taken hold of them so much that it is impossible for them in any way to return to Hashem, blessed be He, except when they come to the grave of the true righteous man, and He, with His great power, which is greater in death than in life, can take him out of the place he has fallen into and restore him, even though it was impossible to restore him in any way’!” (Likkuti Hilchot Nazikin 3).”
 
Isn’t this idolatry?
 
 
The quotes are from here.

Click to access prateiharshama.pdf

http://www.tapuz.co.il/blogs/viewentry/547506
http://umanshalom.co.il/news-page/%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99-%D7%A0%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%9F-%D7%9E%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%A1%D7%9C%D7%91-%D7%96%D7%99%D7%A2%D7%90-%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%93-%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9F-%D7%94%D7%94%D7%AA%D7%A7%D7%A9%D7%A8/


Discover more from הרב מיכאל אברהם

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

Leave a Reply

0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 7 years ago
The question is what does “call” mean. It doesn’t seem like he intended to pray to them or through them. If so, then it’s a “Z” of course. If not – then it just seems unnecessary to me.

Discover more from הרב מיכאל אברהם

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

Copenhagen Interpretation replied 7 years ago

As explained in the second quote (and those that follow it) – through them:

“And his whole intention in his work and prayer – that the work and prayer reach the righteous and he will raise it to the right place”

mikyab123 replied 7 years ago

If so, then at least to the Rambam this seems like a z (working through intermediaries). And a zela if it is necessary.

אורן replied 7 years ago

Why is praying to a person other than God considered idolatry? Prayer comes from the Hebrew word fillel, to hope, to wish. Is it forbidden to hope or beg for things from flesh and blood people? Beyond that, praying through a tzaddik can be considered like talking on the phone, the phone is a means to reach the person I really want to talk to.

mikyab123 replied 7 years ago

If someone offends a person, may he have health. But praying in the religious sense is forbidden.
On praying through intermediaries, see Rambam, beginning of the chapter 7.

י.ד. replied 7 years ago

Rashi disagrees with Maimonides and believes that it is permissible and perhaps even preferable to pray through intermediaries (angels, etc.). I don't have the books at hand, but I think it is a heresy.

And the Copenhagen quote is not clear whether this is a later interpretation or something Rabbi Nathan wrote. In any case, the connection seems like a kind of hitchhiking like the spaceship did in Genesis.

י.ד. replied 7 years ago

Or to put it simply, from the fact that the world imitates saying the piyyutim "I have supported you with thirteen qualities and bring mercy," it seems that the halakha has not been ruled out according to the Rambam, and it is not clear what the rabbi wants from the Bereslavs.

מיכי Staff replied 7 years ago

There is no halakhic ruling here. Those who are afraid are afraid and those who are not are not. To the same extent, you could say that since the Breslevites and all Hasidim accept a connection to the Tzadik, this in itself proves that they do not rule as the Rambam did. And indeed, I commented that I do not know whether his words are necessary.

Copenhagen Interpretation replied 7 years ago

I didn't understand what Halacha rulings are. First of all, there is some sense of what is considered idolatry, and only then Halacha rulings. This is similar to what Rabbi Shimon Shkop says that first there are basic definitions of what is considered property and only then does the Torah come and prohibit theft and robbery, and not that the prohibitions of theft and robbery define what is property.

In other words, it is not possible to define what the essence of idolatry is according to Halacha rulings because it is a matter of reality – Do you worship the Almighty, or something else (some creation). Since your theory says that a certain act is idolatry, then even if all the sages of Israel permitted – it would be forbidden.

mikyab123 replied 7 years ago

This is not accurate. The definition of what a עז is is not purely factual. It has value components. For example, there are opinions in the poskim that the sons of Noah are not warned about sharing. This does not mean that sharing is not a mistake on the factual level. But the prohibition is defined within the framework of halakhah. The son of the

Copenhagen Interpretation replied 7 years ago

This is also a factual question: Did God forbid you to direct your prayer to the righteous so that he would supposedly take care of sending it to him? The prohibition that God imposed (or not, according to the deniers) is a fact in reality.

The prohibition of the Ṣad is learned in two ways: first, the universal rational morality that recognizes that one should not connect with creatures in the spiritual and mental connection that is appropriate to their Creator, and in contrast, when one takes care to raise the prayer only to the righteous, the object of the connection is converted to a person or a dead soul instead of to God. Second, the knowledge that the words of the prophets are true, and anyone who examines the plainness of their words with intellectual and spiritual honesty can see that this is abominable in his eyes.

mikyab123 replied 7 years ago

According to this logic, every halakhic question is factual and therefore there is no place or meaning for disputes. This is empty semantic chatter.
As for the rest, these are opinions and that is precisely what the disputes are about. But beyond that, a prohibition is based on a commandment and not on opinions. Opinions can teach that an action is good or bad. Prohibition and permission are matters of halakhic law.
Regarding “Why did I call it an opinion”, see my article here “The Halakhic Status of Opinions”.

רוני replied 7 years ago

The question is seemingly who the tzaddik represents.
If he is addressed as a representative of the Almighty, this is certainly idolatry according to Maimonides.
But if he is a representative of the person praying, then perhaps not, since no one believes that a person who asks his friend to pray for him is a worshiper of God at all (even if it is not God, that does not mean that it is desirable).

mikyab123 replied 7 years ago

Indeed. There is another problem in that the linker is a dead person.

Copenhagen Interpretation replied 7 years ago

Rabbi,

It does not follow from what I have claimed that every halakhic question is factual. When you know the fact, then a halakhic question does not arise. Suppose you know that a certain meat is certainly milk or certainly leaven (on Passover) - there is no halakhic question, but only a fact that God forbids you from doing so. A question arises when the matter is unknown or God has left the matter in doubt for the minds of certain people. Then it is possible to argue that there is perhaps no fact (or alternatively that the fact is that you are obligated to a decision that comes out of the halakhic discussion).

What is the problem with this being an opinion? The claim that Moses received the Torah from Sinai also has its origins in (historical or other) beliefs. This does not make the dissenting opinion have the same degree of legitimacy in the eyes of God.

And after all, the claim that because these are beliefs, and therefore the opinions that permit it have some supposedly serious place is also an opinion in itself.

Prohibition and permission, in my understanding, are what God Almighty forbids or permits (and since God Almighty and His intellect are one, the moral good and evil that man arrives at with his natural intellect are identical with God's command).

מיכי Staff replied 7 years ago

I can't follow the discussion here. You wrote that it is a factual question whether God forbade or not. This is indeed where the conclusion I wrote comes from.

Reason is certainly not invalid, but reason is not a fact (contrary to your words). That is what I wrote at the beginning. Then I added that there is a debate about reason, and halakha does not come from reason but from a command. Reason can interpret a command but not create it (in the case of Torah). Your last sentence is a lack of understanding of the essence of halakha. I referred you to my article on reason, p.

שלום שלום replied 7 years ago

An explanation has been written regarding the connection of prayer to the righteous, its purpose and action. With evidence from the great Kabbalists and Hasidic rabbis as well as from Lithuanian rabbis. Worth reading once and for all

The connection of prayer to the righteous is that before the prayer, one should intend that one prays on the mind of the righteous, and during the prayer, one should intend that one prays in connection and generalization with him so that the righteous will complete and correct the prayer. However, the intention is not to pray to the righteous himself or to think that one is raising his prayer through the soul of the righteous and asking him to raise the prayer, but rather that he will pray with us as if praying in public, and when the righteous prays, he raises all the prayers.

Sources for the idea of the prayer being connected to the tzaddik and its acceptance
Rabbi Yehonatan Eybshitz:

“If so, all prayers revolve around the prayers of the tzaddik, and adhere to their prayers, and he [the tzaddik], between whom there is no separating screen and Hashem, through his prayers the prayers of others also ascend… and through their prayers the prayers of others also ascend”

— Yaarot Dvash Ch. A. End of the Prayer 9
Rabbi Chaim Yosef David Azulai

“When there is one tzaddik in the generation of the Shekhinah with him and through him the praise and prayers of the ministers of Israel are taken up and their work is done by that tzaddik, the head of the flag”

— Diab Kedomot 20, 6

Rabbi Moshe Cordeviro:

“And their prayers and their work are done by that tzaddik, the head of the flag… And the prayers of all Israel will ascend through this ladder”

— Ilima Ein Kol Tamar 5 Chapter 14
The Hatam Sofer:

“And when they [Israel] cling to each other, then even though I cannot direct my prayer properly, I pray for the will of the greatest of the generation, and secondly, that we communicate with each other and do everything as one… and if so, we agree with our great ones and make them our messengers in our mission”

— Hatam Sofer on the Torah, Parashat Exodus
Ben Ish Chai:

“For most of the time, a person's prayer is not complete in terms of intention, but its deficiency is made up for by its joining with the prayers of the righteous, who are complete, and they pull the prayers of the weak, like a ship of fire [-steam] that pulls with it a simple ship, and for this reason he has no desire and will for connection and unity, then measure for measure his prayer will not join with the prayers of the righteous who are complete, and will be distinguished and separated from them, and then its deficiency will be recognized and it will not have the power to ascend”

— Benyahu ben Jehoiada, Blessings of the

R’ Chaim Vital:

“He also told me [the Arizal], when I went with him to Tiberias to the cave of Rabbi Akiva, that Rabbi Akiva told him that I should remember Rabbi Akiva ten times one after the other, first of all a prayer from the three prayers of evening, morning and noon, and through this he will move through me and help me greatly”

— Shaar Gilgulim Introduction 80

The Rabbi:

“He will aim to stick and connect his animal with the animal of the righteous, etc., his soul with the soul of the righteous”

Rabbi Yaakov Yisrael Kanievsky:

“And it turned out to me that it was very beneficial for him when he made a declaration before the prayer that he was praying in the name of the Arizal, the Tz, the Shech, and the Magen Avraham, and then during the prayer he meant that he was praying in connection with a famous Tzaddik, and I learned that it was almost completely beneficial for him to pray without extraneous thoughts”

— Karaina Dagrata Part 1, Ot Rafa in the New Edition
Rabbi Nathan of Breslov:

“But truly all the prayers – the Tzaddik in every generation raise them and establish them, as it is written, And Moses raised the tabernacle, and raised every pillar and pillar to its posts, and built the height of the Shekhina little by little”

In the prayer books he prays

And we are called in our prayer and connect all our prayers with all the righteous of our generation. And you, in your great mercy, will awaken the hearts of the true righteous of our generation, and will give them the strength to accept our prayers and raise them before you. And even if our prayer is not appropriate and is mixed with much idolatry, and there is not even one word or one letter in our prayer that is pure and clean, and my words stammer a lot and my tongue is full of flaws, because I do not speak with knowledge and the words are far from the thought, surely over all these your mercy and grace have prevailed. And you will give strength to your true righteous that they will be able to raise and lift and elevate all our prayers for their merit and cleanse them from every stain and defect, in such a way that they will be able to rise before you to your will, and build from them the edifice of the Divine Presence, for its preparation and sustenance and its establishment from its exile. And raise up the fallen tabernacle of David, through our prayers, and return your presence to Zion, and shine your face upon us

And grant me the right to pray to you in the union of the souls of Israel. Let our prayer be the prayer of many. And do not be weary of our prayer. As it is written: “They are great and do not grow weary”. And may great and immense sanctifications be added and increased above through our prayer

Rabbi Avraham ben Rabbi Nachman

“The whole point of the words of the sages regarding the above prohibition is as a prescription to do this to the one who asks him for a means of salvation, but if his intention is nothing other than as a matter of public prayer that inspires each other to ask and pray together for their troubles in general and in particular because each one is obligated to participate in the troubles of his fellow manæ it is very necessary to unite in their prayers in the generality of the public and in the particularity of the soul of the righteous and wise among them. And yet, everyone must also join in the prayer of the criminals and those farthest from them, because this too is a matter of necessity”

Rabbi Meshulam Feibish of Zbriz’:

“With all this, the words of one's prayer arise by the person's binding himself by saying, 'I have taken upon myself the positive commandment of loving your neighbor as yourself' and including himself in complete love with the holy souls of the righteous”

The Breslov Hasidim who follow the path of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov, before the prayer, bind themselves to all the righteous, and there is a version in which they say: I bind myself in my prayer to all the true righteous of our generation and to all the righteous who dwell in the holy land of the land of the living”

Rabbi Yaakov Israel Kanievsky was asked by his student Rabbi Avraham Horwitz about the Breslov Hasidim who first mention the prayer, "I associate myself with Rabbi Nachman," and he replied that Breslov certainly does not have this intention, but their hearts and intentions are only for the Lord of the World, with the merit of Rabbi Nachman, so that their prayers may be accepted.

Rabbi Gedaliah Koenig wrote the booklet Chai Nefesh, which is a letter in response to a question addressed to him regarding contact with the righteous during prayer, citing the words of Rabbi Chaim of Volozhin on this matter (cited in his book "Nefesh HaChaim"), which, according to the reader's understanding, in this matter is an act of idolatry. Rabbi Koenig strives to prove that Rabbi Chaim's words do not at all relate to the matter of contact with the righteous. At the top of the booklet is printed an agreement by the rabbis of the Haredi Eda, Rabbi Shmuel Wasner, and other rabbis, both Hasidic and dissenting. Later, a letter of consent written by Rabbi Zvi Yehuda Kook was published with additions from the author's manuscript.

breadtoeatandclothingtowear replied 5 years ago

The questioner ended up with a quote from what Rabbi Nathan said about Rabbi Nachman, that whoever comes to his grave can be healed. This is very puzzling and reminiscent of quotes from Messianic Jews who believe in Jesus.

Leave a Reply

Back to top button