The counting of years in the Bible, and some other similar puzzles

I will comment later today.

Greetings,
Your question can be discussed on two levels - the very essence of the first chapters of the Book of Genesis or the very tactical questions you asked. With your permission, I will only touch on the second level and ignore the first for the sake of discussion (although he himself makes most of the question redundant.

First of all, there are those who have already dealt with these questions, such as Harebab Aviner, who published an article showing how 70 people could supposedly reach the number of the Israelites, or Nathan Aviezer, who dealt with the development of languages and peoples. However, it is not certain that there is any need for such things.
We should know that in the ancient East, including the Bible, there is a use of symbolic numbers that come to express ideas and not represent an exact number. We see this in several places. If the numbers of ages in the Book of Genesis or the numbers of the Israelites are symbolic, then the whole question is automatically eliminated…

However, the understandable question is whether incomplete numbers are also those that expressed ideas?
Well, the study of the ancient East teaches us that the answer is unequivocally yes! And this can be proven from several places in the Bible.
Take, for example, the numbers of armies in Chronicles. Neriah Klein, in an article published 15 years ago, showed that the number of Jehoshaphat's soldiers in Chronicles is actually an exact combination of the sizes of the armies of the kings before him!

Specifically,
it turned out that the size of Asa's army === the number of armies of Rehoboam+Uzziah
and the size of Jehoshaphat's army ==== the number of armies of Uzziah+Asa+Rehoboam

And what was the size of Jehoshaphat's army?
1,160,000 – a really non-round number…

The same is true of the numbers of descendants of the tribes and concubines in the Book of Genesis (the number of descendants of the mothers listed is exactly 2 times greater than the number of descendants of the concubines) and in several other places (such as the number of camels from Midian in the Book of Judges, which contains a pattern of the numbers of the Israelites in the Book of Numbers).

That is, there is no doubt that in ancient times, non-round numbers also expressed ideas. Therefore, there is no This is unlikely because this is also the case for the ages of the first generations in the Book of Genesis and the numbers of the Israelites and the half-shekels. In fact, there are even textual hints to this (unreasonable distribution of the numbers, etc.).

For examples from the Book of Chronicles, see Klein's article:
The Chronicler's Code: The Rise and Fall of Judah's Army in the Book of Chronicles

And also see Yehoshua Berman's lecture here, who gave some examples of this:

Indeed, we cannot always decipher the meaning of every number, but the very idea that in several places in the Bible it is proven that this worked makes this possibility a completely legitimate possibility.

In fact, there are several practical tips for both the ages of the Book of Genesis and the enumerators of the Israelites. The suggestions regarding the Book of Genesis are very convincing in my opinion. Cassuto has already shown that these are duplications of 70 and tens (numbers that come to express the term “many”) and his son Yaakov has expanded to show the symbolic meaning The specificity of some ages.
Take, for example, the age of Adam's death. 930, as it were. This is a number in a clear pattern of 7. 1000-700. And his son Jacob noticed something interesting. Adam was the last to die in the first millennium BCE. Noah was the first to be born in the second millennium BCE and Noah was the first to die in the third millennium BCE (he went on to show additional such ideas). In other words, these are numbers that are based on a meaningful pattern and each number is chosen according to the messages it came to convey. So yes, not everything is clear, but sometimes these ideas can be discerned.

Similarly, there are several suggestions for the numbering of the Israelites (including the half-shekels, etc.). In my opinion, they are not convincing enough, but as mentioned – the mere fact that we have not yet deciphered it does not contradict the fact that this is how they once worked (such suggestions were presented by Kitschine and Cassuto) and so it is likely that this is also the case (see Berman's lecture).

Did you learn that in the Bible Numbers expressed ideas, we don't always know what ideas, but in some places they can definitely be seen, even in non-round numbers. And the matter is still long and there are many other considerations that you did not mention in the context of these parshiot (the meaning of the first 10 generations and so on).

Start with these sources and if there are more questions, we will discuss them.

Even today, the numbers given by Jewish historians are unreliable. For example, the Jews claim that 6 million Jews perished in the Holocaust, a typological number – 10 times sixty thousand! And I have already proven in my dissertation (approved by the Senate of Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow) that no more than a million Jews perished in World War II, and even they perished in battles and bombings, not in a planned extermination, which it is inconceivable that an enlightened and cultured people like the German people would resort to. The entire ‘Holocaust’ is a myth invented by the Jews to justify their takeover of Palestine.

Best regards, Dr. Mahmoud Shatz Abbaslinger,
Myth-Dissolving Institute, Qubat an-Najma University, near Ramallah

Another myth that uses a typological number is the story of 600,000 Jewish residents in Palestine at the time of the establishment of the Zionist entity, exactly like the number told in the stories of the Exodus from Egypt… and everything is completely exaggerated. If, according to the myth, the Jews went through a Holocaust that killed 6 million of them in the years 1939-1945 – how is it possible that three years later – in 1946 – the meager ’remnants’ manage to defeat armies of tens of millions of Arab countries. Clearly, these things are absurd…

In the last paragraph, line 6
… of tens of millions of residents of Arab countries. …

Well, that's excessive. Rabbi Michael, please delete the above stupid comment.

One must judge from the perspective of one who does not put oneself first and from their mouths, not from their writings, etc.

By the way, a point that is really worth clarifying. I don't think that every number in the Bible is necessarily like this. However, the fact that the Bible also worked in this mechanism and given that there is an odd number – this is a legitimate and honest interpretation that takes into account the time of composition. There is no single, unambiguous method to identify when they intended this and when they intended something else, but I have some algorithm on the issue that gives direction. Either way, there are numbers like this and there are others and therefore it is definitely possible.

In the 23rd of Av 5771

Letzhai – Hello,

I did not get to understand what is stupid in Dr. Abaslinger's argument? He uses the method accepted by biblical critics that any number that can be defined as a ’typological number’ is invented. A method that M for the Bible also used.

According to this methodology, if there are sources that speak of the extermination of 6 million Jews in the Holocaust and 600,000 Jews in Israel at the establishment of the state – then we must suspect that these are multiples of the typological number ‘sixty thousand’ of the Egyptians, and therefore we assume that the numbers are invented.

What else are there ‘studies’ Many contemporaries, such as Dr. Mahmoud Abbas's doctorate, openly claim that the numbers are exaggerated. Even the matter of the "annihilation of a third of the people" can be linked to the legendary motif of the annihilation of a third of humanity in human days.

In short: if we adopt the methods of the biblical critics, we can "apply" those methods to contemporary history and deny the tangible. And there is already a journal called "Midbar Sheker - A Journal for the Study of Southwest Asia in the 20th-21st Century" (edited by Dr. Hagai Misgav and Hillel Gershuni) that shows how it is possible to use the methods of the biblical critics to deny the entire history of our time.

Greetings, The Parodic Schl”tz

Even using the method that every miraculous event did not exist and was not created, Dr. Abaslinger used it to prove the improbability that a ’people of the remnants of the sword’ would succeed three years after a terrible Holocaust in defeating armies of enemy countries numbering tens of millions. What can be done? The history of the people of Israel is miraculous…

Because M Lavina will read: If there is (even the beginnings of) an algorithm, this already makes the discussion really interesting (for me). Have you written about this? Can you please refer? Many thanks

In the year 23, 5721,

Traditions about a flood that destroyed the world exist in almost all cultures of the world. A multitude of testimonies from sources that are independent of each other – indicates a powerful historical event that took place and left its mark on all of humanity.

It seems to me that it is precisely in the writings of the people of Canaan that the story of the flood is not mentioned, and indeed there are those who say in the book of the prophet that there was no flood, according to the words of Ezekiel: ‘A land that was not purified will not be swallowed up in the day of wrath’. But it is also possible that the Canaanites refrained from telling the story of the flood, which they took to be in fundamental contradiction to their permissive world of values.

With greetings, Sh”t

The Canaanite priests could always explain that they were not sufficiently devout in their permissiveness. If the Rema wrote that he had never seen anyone in his time in these generations who had a problem (in matters of halakhic law), then he was referring to matters of view that are like a glass in the hand of one who blows on a coal fire and places a reka on its embers to warm it.

The description in the Book of Judges (Chapter 7) of the Midianite camel population, “and their camels are without number,” differs from the description of the Midianite plunder in the Book of Numbers, where no camels appear at all.

And see R. Oren Said’s article “Domestication of the Camel” (on the Torah and Science blog), which states that in the days of the patriarchs and even after them, only a few camels were domesticated and used for international trade, but the mass domestication of camels only began in the 12th century BCE, concurrent with the period of the Judges.

With blessings, Sh.

In the years of the first generations there is no number known in biblical literature as a ’typological number’ with significance. We have not heard of 930, nor of 912, 895, 905, 910 962, 969, 777 (except for the brandy 🙂 nor of 950, 438, 239, 230, 148, 205. The only one who has a nice round number is there who lived 600 years, the only exception whose number of years has significance is Enoch – 365 years according to the number of days of the sun – but he is also exceptional in the manner of his death.

Historical memory of the longevity of early generations has also been preserved in Mesopotamian stories that speak of kings who lived thousands and thousands of years. In contrast, there are precise traditions, for Noah was still alive in the days of Abraham and there he was still alive in the days of Jacob. From the days of the patriarchs, the number 28 has already descended to the world. Abraham lived 175 years; Isaac 180; Jacob 147, Levi 137; Joseph 110; Moses 120; Joshua 110. And this was probably for special individuals, since in the Prayer of Moses, the man of God, the norm is already described: ‘The days of our lives are seventy years, and if we are strong, eighty years’.

In the Torah, in the Garden of Eden, it is explained that death is not man's natural destiny. If man had not sinned at the Tree of Knowledge, he could have lived forever, and Isaiah also foretells that in the future the world will be corrected and will be restored, "He will swallow up death forever, and He will wipe away tears from all faces" (25:8). Even the dead will rise to life, as it is written, "Your dead will live, I will be raised from the dead, and you who dwell in the dust will be glad" (22:19).

With blessings, Sha'ban

Swallow up death forever means that God will swallow up the enemy who is like death and will not be satisfied. They will live from the simplicity that speaks of the people in general as in Ezekiel, these bones are the whole house of Israel.

I noticed that at the time of Noah's birth, Adam and Seth were no longer among the living. The earliest ancestor still alive at the time of Noah's birth was Enosh. At the time of Noah's birth, the first prayer in human history was said. Lamech prayed for his son: "This one will comfort us from our deeds and from the toil of our hands from the ground which the Lord has cursed." And don't take this lightly: How could a man ask that his decree be changed?

Perhaps this is what the Torah was referring to when it said, "Then in the days of man, the name of the Lord began to be called upon," that in the days of man, humanity was given the ability to "call upon the name of the Lord," to turn to Him in prayer and petition.

This was tremendous courage on the part of Lamech. And the "test of the result" would have seemed very disappointing. The years pass and Noah is not blessed with a seed. 200 years pass and there are no children, 300 and 400 years pass and the son in whom his father pinned such great hopes – remains childless.

Only at the age of 682, after 500 years of expectation, did Lamech see the beginning of the fulfillment of his request, when three sons were born to his son, named Ham and Japheth. The main fulfillment of his prayer for his son, when he was a consolation for humanity after the terrible disaster of the flood – Lamech did not see in his lifetime.

To teach us, that a person should not despair of asking and praying. There are requests and prayers that require a ‘breathing space’ of 500 years before seeing hope realized.

In the blessing of Shabbat Tevet, Sh”t

What about Lemech and prayers and changing decrees? God said, "By the sweat of your brow you will eat bread." And Lemech looked for someone to help him in the field and be his soul's restorer and to provide for his return.

M, what is the manga? This sounds interesting. And if the numbers about Beni are not as written, how many do you think crossed the Red Sea? 600 people and 1200 on foot?

24th of Av 5771

Lt. – – Shalom Rav,

Calling on the name of the Lord in the Bible is prayer, as stated in Psalms 17: ‘Moses and Aaron in his priesthood, and Samuel in calling on his name, called upon the Lord; and he answered them’. And so in the words of Naaman, ‘And he stood and called on the name of the Lord his God, and lifted up his hand, and took the leper’ from 2:5. Perhaps also ‘and lifted up his hand’ our concern is the spreading of the hands in prayer). And so Onkelos translated what is said in Abraham ‘Vayikra. There in the name of the Lord: ‘And they were called by the name of the Lord’.

Here too, Onkelos understood that ’calling on the name of the Lord’ is ‘totzelah by the name of the Lord’, but he did not understand the box of Hochhal’ as I suggested ‘totzelah’, for if he had done so he would have translated ‘then they sang to the name of the Lord’, and he translated ‘then the sons of Ansha were sick with fever by the name of the Lord’, and Eli interpreted ‘hochhal’ in the sense of ‘profane’ Or in the sense of ‘might’, that people were afraid to pray to her’, and it was probably difficult for him to interpret that only in the days of man did they begin to pray to her’.

However you understand Lamech's statement ‘this will comfort us…’, this is the first time that naming a child does not come as an admission of the past (such as ‘because from man she took this’, because she was the mother of all living’, ‘I have bought a man from the ’ and ’because God has planted seed for me’). Here for the first time the son is named after hope for the future.

And the detail ‘from the ground which the ”cursed” It seems that the Lord Solomon expected more than just a return from his son, but rather the correction of the curse of the earth. And it seems that he was accurate in the words of the Lord to Adam: “Cursed is the earth for your sake,” that the cause of the curse of the earth is man, and therefore he expected and asked that his new-born son would bring with his rights and good deeds the correction of the sin of the “great-grandfather.”

With blessings, the Lord

Regarding the resurrection of the dead, it is also explained in the Psalms: “You will gather their spirit and they will return to their dust; send forth Your Spirit, they will be healed, and you will renew the face of the earth.” And further explanation at the end of the world: “Many from the dust of the earth will awaken.” Therefore, I see no reason to take Isaiah's words out of context.

I have not and will not apologize for calling on the name of the Lord.
In hope, there is no innovation, unlike changing decrees (about which I said there is no point in innovating such an idea and then announcing that it will not be easy in our eyes. If it is not easy and necessary, why should it be burdensome in our eyes). To introduce spiritual ideas into your language when there is a simple explanation is not sermonizing, and without evidence, whatever will be will be.
Also, "Send forth your spirit and they will be healed" is not the resurrection of the dead, but rather that people will die and their children will live in their place. In the later Daniel (and Akmal and Kenoda) it is indeed explicit. And do I have an objection to the resurrection of the dead? Or do I have a problem with whether it is from the Torah and the prophets or only after many and bad troubles? What is in the tradition is good for me.
In my opinion, the simplicity of the verses in Isaiah is clear, as I wrote, and the evidence leads to sermonizing about it. Swallowing up death forever is a continuation of the description of what the Lord will do to the nations and the Lord will make armies for all the nations on this mountain, a banquet of fattened men and so on. The Lord will swallow up on this mountain and so on. The veil that is spread over all the nations, he will swallow up death forever. And so on. I also added that it is likened to bringing death to death, as in the verse in Habakkuk that I mentioned, and it is like death and will not be satisfied. The verses in Yahchiu Matikh I remember that they bring their meaning as the words of Ezekiel who prolonged the reign of Israel's return to its land to revive dry bones and now I also see that the Lord of hosts preceded everyone and in my opinion this is the simple explanation and the rest is sparse sermons.
In any case, even Nahalat was saddened by the fact that in recent days I have been engaged here only in gossiping about legends and reading books, and my teeth have almost fallen out from inactivity and gnashing of teeth. Where is the place for a doubter who turns around and where are the sceptics of you? And even in the main columns, in order to observe them properly, one must look at the gates of justice for a long time, and this is forced by laziness and leisure.

Thus Radak interpreted: ‘According to the plain meaning, what Lamech said “This will comfort us” was not said through prophecy, but was called “Nacham” as a sign, through blessing and prayer, just as Rachel called her son Joseph ‘Lamer Joseph, the Lord has given me another son”‘.

It is also stated in the name of the Rashb”m (in Mikraot Gedolot HaKeter) ‘Nacham was the first born after a man died, and therefore they called “Nacham” who said: “It will be willing that one corrects the distortion of another” and it is the language of prayer”.

With blessings, Sh”z

And so did Rashba and Rabbah interpret the phrase, "Then the name of God began to be called upon," meaning that people then began to pray. Rashba added that the need to pray was due to troubles that renewed in human days.

And we too will conclude with a prayer that you may attain peace and tranquility in the ever-changing, ontic and epistemic doubt, in dramatic and deistic terms, from the suns to the moons 🙂

With the blessing of Shabbat Tava, Sasson Zweibelminger

🙂
May you have many pleasant and good years

I guess a few tens of thousands (60-70 thousand)

In the year 2011, the Lord saw

To M – Hello,

It seems that the tens of thousands you saw when the Red Sea parted were the ones who passed through your path, but you didn't take into account that there were 11 more paths!

Greetings, the cousin of Nachshon Ben Aminadab, whose name is also ‘Nachshon Ben Aminadab 🙂

Sh”t, you forgot that he only saw the men in front of him but the women and children were late, so that's four times for each path.
Greetings, the woman before the Mt.

To the woman before the ’Mi-Tu’ – Greetings,

Before the ’Mi-Tu’ era, the man was considered the protector of the woman, and therefore it turns out that they let the women and children walk in front, so that if the pursuing Egyptians caught up – the women and children would be more protected.

With greetings, the guardian of his descendants

This is how Jacob acted in the encounter with Esau, where the danger lay ahead – it is said ‘and he passed before them’ so that if Esau wanted to harm – the women and children would be protected.

With best wishes, Sasson Zwiebelminger

In the year 28, 5721,

The Book of Genesis gives us a moral message. Death is not natural, but a decree that fell on humanity due to the sin of the ‘Tree of Knowledge’. But still, until Noah (and until in general) the lifespan was about 900 years and more (except for two exceptions: Enoch 365 and Malachi 777. Perhaps ‘because of the evil –the flood –the righteous were gathered–.)

Due to the sin of the flood, the decree was passed on man in general7 and his days were one hundred and twenty years’, but there were still individuals of virtue who extended their lives, but not as before. There he lived 600 years, and those who came after him until Eber (and until in general) lived more than 400 years.

The third fault line is the generation of the passage from which onwards the life expectancy of the virtuous individuals is again shortened by half, to just over 200 years. (Except for one exception, Nahor, who lived only 148 years).

The next decline, which apparently has a different cause, is in the days of the patriarchs and after them. Here the life expectancy of the individuals decreases. Starting at 175-180 with Abraham and Isaac; 147 with Jacob; 133-137 with Levi, Kohath and Amram, up to 110-120 with Joseph, Moses and Joshua.

It seems to us that the generations of the virtuous individuals are decreasing, and their place is taken by a people who are destined to be a “kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” The “Godly thing” will not appear again. Giant individuals, but by a people, who will live a normal life like all nations, and on the other hand, as a normal people, they will reveal the rest of the spirit of a "special people". From now on, there will be no exceptions to the ancient decree of "And his days were one hundred and twenty years". This is the framework and it must be fulfilled.

Here come the prophecies of Isaiah, and promise that there will be a correction of the sins of humanity from the book of Genesis. The sin of wandering will be corrected by the unification of all nations, requesting guidance to walk in the ways of the God of Jacob. The ways of righteousness that they will learn will bring about the abolition of the wars of destruction and the destruction that also brought about the sin of the generation of the flood.

The correction of the ancient sins will also lead to an increase in life expectancy, as before the flood, to the point where ”the boy of a hundred years shall die’ (sa), and on top of that, the correction of the sin of the Tree of Knowledge ‘death swallowed up forever’ (sa) and the resurrection of the dead ‘awaken and let us rejoice, you who dwell in the dust (sa)’.

The message of Genesis and Isaiah One is: Humanity's sin has shortened life expectancy; and repentance and correction – will restore life expectancy to its original ideal state.

With blessings, Shࢭz

Paragraph 1, line 1
… A decree that came upon mankind…

Paragraph 8, line 1
… It shortened the lifespan…

I understand that not only were you not convinced by the interpretation of Isaiah's words, but that you took the midrash and placed it at the top of the entire book as a central message. Anyone who tries to read the chapters in Isaiah (25-26) and Psalms (141) in their context (Isaiah - death to the wicked and the oppressors and life for Israel. Psalms - description of the custom of the world, hay for rabbits and ships. And in Ezekiel chapter 33) will see with his eyes the simplicity of the matters and his heart will understand and return.

And also that you cited the verses about the creation of the new heavens and the new earth, that then the boy of a hundred years will die, and you did not explain how the dead live and the boy dies. An old man in a place where he was born and was baptized in the heavens of heaven? In the Talmud of Rabbi Yossi ben Kasma, these authors of the midrash found it written, and the wall was their material.

In the 28th of Av, 5775

Tahch”R – Shalom Rav,

In Psalms 11, it begins with a description of nature and ends with the future vision of ‘sinners will be removed from the earth and the wicked will not be’ therefore, the likelihood increases that ‘send out your spirit, they will be healed’ it is literally said of those in whom ‘their spirit will be renewed’ took place. When ‘sinners will be removed from the earth’ then the sin of the first Adam, who brought death into the world, will be corrected.

Regarding your question (in the second paragraph), I explained (in the seventh paragraph) that Isaiah in his prophecies speaks of two stages. In chapter 7, it speaks of a return to the situation before the flood, in which people lived for 900 years or more. In this chapter, we are talking about the next stage, the correction of the sin of the Tree of Knowledge, which will lead to the higher stage, ‘death will be swallowed up forever’, and ’the inhabitants of the dust will awaken and rejoice’.

Sporadic resurrection of the dead is actually mentioned in Kings, in Elisha who raised the Shunammite. Even the dead who was thrown into his grave rose to his feet (Malachi 2:13). Malachi prophesies the return in the end times of Elijah the prophet who ascended in a heavenly storm, and the angel announces to Daniel ‘many who sleep in the dust of the ground will awaken, these to eternal life…’.

Greetings, Samson Zwiebelringer

Even from Ezekiel, who likens the resurrection of the people of Israel to the resurrection of the dead, it seems that the resurrection of the dead was not considered absurd by his listeners, for if it was absurd in their eyes that the dead would live, then the parable of the resurrection of the people was a ‘parable to contradict’… ,

It is true that you interpreted what I said that you did not interpret regarding the boy. I was negligent in this and only felt it after I sent. And from where did you create three stages without any hint and no prophet mentioned them. And what is this method of saying here, what are we dealing with and what wall can stand against such freedom. And in general, could it be that such a great innovation that the dead will not be explained by the prophets, repeated and explained and memorized, and we will have to dig food from obscure verses? And as far as I am concerned, it is fine. The verses are according to their subject and there is no gap between the degree of detail in the prophet and the repetition within the prophets and the degree and importance of the innovation.

In the Psalms, everything is described in the present tense. The sun will rise, you will give them, you will open your hand, you will hide your face, you will increase their spirit. You will send your spirit. And what is the logic that only your spirit will send speaks of future futures. At the beginning, the chapter describes that the He worries about life and food and concludes that indeed the concern is not complete according to their death, but that others will rise in their place to continue the world and God's concern for the existence of the whole. He made a fourth assumption in his short words: And the taste will be healed - others. Ending a chapter with a prayer for the future is a common matter and there is no lesson from it for the rest of the chapter. That is my opinion and I did not see anything that could be learned from it.

Among the prophets, miracles unfolded under the table and what there is to learn from this for general matters I do not know. Ezekiel stands out among the prophets in his use of illustrations to clarify ideas, and in the depth of despair the power of illustration.

Regarding extreme ages, see here: https://rationalbelief.org.il/%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%99-%D7%94%D7%90%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%91%D7%90%D7%92%D7%93%D7%AA-%D7%97%D7%9B%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%9D/