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The ethical status of compulsory conscription

שו”תCategory: generalThe ethical status of compulsory conscription
asked 8 years ago

A few days ago I sat with a group of people who are concerned with the ethical aspect of military operations, some from within the system and some from outside it.
There has been a lot of talk about actions being taken these days by the company from “Breaking the Silence” etc.
After that, someone talked about the ultra-Orthodox wars against military conscription (some of them), and the question arose of what the ethical status of mandatory conscription really is.
They mentioned there, for example (many kinds), that a commander is allowed to give an order that involves a percentage of risk that a person would never take on for themselves (and perhaps it was forbidden from a halakhic perspective), it was found that the obligation to enlist in the army constitutes a terrible denial of civil rights, and then they began the discussion that arises from this, that the state has a general goal that obliges everyone and without which the state will not exist, etc.
In short, they couldn’t figure out how to obligate a person who feels he has the right to live in this place (his grandfather lived here before there was a state, etc.) without the patronage of one state or another to government obligations, and certainly an obligation that is more dangerous than this.
That’s the summary of the discussion. Approximately.
Well…. The whole discussion didn’t appeal to my prejudices, the reference to “breaking the silence” was also too accepting, and I, who sees the draft obligation as a right, really didn’t connect with the whole discussion, but since then the question of who and by what right can one force a person to endanger themselves against their will has really become alien to me, and I’m asking this not necessarily if the person is not interested in the existence of the state (leftists, Neturei Karta, etc.) but even a person like me (a religious Zionist without a hyphen) who enjoys the state and is happy in its existence (even in the spiritual sense) but whose life is definitely more important to him than anything in the world (I think this is an inevitable thought of every rational person). How can one ask and demand that I give what is most precious to me, my very self.
I’m still amazed.
Thanks Reuven


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0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 8 years ago
I don’t see any problem with this. Anyone who wants to secede from the state without rights and without obligations should of course be allowed to do so (and if he has property here, then he can sit here without services and without any enjoyment of the surroundings, except for full payment). But anyone who wants to be a member/citizen of this group is required to risk himself. If his life is precious to him – he will be honored and buy a villa or a submarine in the Pacific Ocean and live there in peace. Or at least he will secede from civil society and its services and pleasures. There is no such thing as being happy that there is a state, that is, receiving pleasures and services, without taking part in the duties. Needless to say, the command to put ourselves at risk is not in the least bit in conflict with the halakha, of course. On the contrary, the halakha requires us to take much greater risks, even in wars of authority. When we defend our lives, it is perfectly permissible to demand that we risk our lives. According to the halakha, this is also within the authority of the secular government (= the king), and if there is no king, then within the authority of those who decide on behalf of society (= the government). I don’t see any problem with debating it. It’s one of the simplest questions (theoretical, not experiential. Obviously, risking one’s life is not a simple thing) that I can think of.

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ראובן replied 8 years ago

So in your opinion, someone who has a right (a very obscure concept, including the concept of property you mentioned, I don't understand except in the social-public sense) that does not derive its power from the state in their opinion (and it is not difficult to find such a thing in a country as young and full of many diverse rights meanings as ours) and does not wish to receive anything from the state in which they are located can and has the right not to be a part of it, with all that this implies.

I immediately think of the Neturi Karta, who I mentioned, who even have a plan (which is delusional in my opinion) on how to manage from a security perspective if the state is abolished.

There is a widespread claim among the extreme Haredi public (I don't like such definitions, but still) that the founders of the state created the problem of the Jewish state and they (the Haredim) are not obligated to participate in its solution.

And now I think that the Jews (religious Haredim and other vegetables who derive their right to the land from various spiritual reasons) think that they have a right to the Land of Israel and all its resources naturally (and there are some) and taking all these resources in order to establish a state and maintain it creates obligations in relation to those Jews who think that their right to the land does not stem from the consent (or non-consent) of the UN, etc. to establish a state.

I don't think this is a simple problem because I consider myself, for example, a liberal and I don't like government intervention at all (in all issues from taxes to drugs) but regarding the protection of Jews, my opinion is very positive, but I suddenly realized that in the army I do something for one reason (protecting Jews) in a framework that is completely one thing (protecting the government or something like that, I haven't figured out what that means yet) and lately these two things don't always lead to one action, and I ask myself whether it is even a mitzvah to do this within the army.

So maybe logically it's very simple (not practical of course) but with so many details and items and rights and owners I don't see how to navigate my rights.

By the way, correction, I meant human rights and not civil rights of course.

ראובן replied 8 years ago

By the way, from a halakhic perspective, I meant in cases other than war, etc.

ראובן replied 8 years ago

Another question is whether a state or body in general is permitted to establish (by a non-unanimous majority) a civil society framework (army) that is not consistent with human rights (the risk ordinance above).

מיכי Staff replied 8 years ago

I don't understand what's bothering you. Things are completely simple as I explained (and are in no way related to liberalism). What should be added here? Indeed, if Neturi Karta want to stand on their own (neither from your own nor from your own) - it's appropriate to give them that and good luck to them.

ראובן replied 8 years ago

If you could address the last question

מיכי Staff replied 8 years ago

I already answered.
What here is not in line with human rights? An order to risk life does not contradict anything, as long as it is necessary to protect the state and its citizens. It is clear that this is a risk that an ordinary person would not take. Why would he take it if he was not at risk. This is not about taking risks as a hobby. But if your life were threatened, you would definitely do it. Therefore, the state as a collective that is at risk can demand that its citizens risk themselves (in a proper and equal manner) to protect it.
Of course, those who do not want to do so are not partners and are exempt. Neither duties nor rights.

ראובן replied 8 years ago

Rape like David?

מיכי Staff replied 8 years ago

???

ראובן replied 8 years ago

Therefore, it is appropriate to develop a social and political alternative that can accommodate within its areas of control even those who do not recognize or are interested in its authority.

Because in the current situation, an individual or group cannot detach themselves from society and its laws without leaving their area of residence.

This should be an international movement that recognizes the personal right of individuals to themselves and the non-imposition of these individuals on society.

I believe that in many countries (especially ours with its unusual diversity) there will be those who are interested in shedding the burden of society and the rights it grants.

I think I will be one of the first and not the last who is not willing to sacrifice myself for whims or political decisions that are not to my liking.

מיכי Staff replied 8 years ago

Excellent. You are welcome to develop, and good luck.

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