The leap from morality to Torah
First of all, a big congratulations on the debate with Yaron Yadan. It seems he was surprised by the direction of thinking and the arguments.
Towards the end of the discussion, you said that since we believe in God and that He wants something, it is unlikely that He only wants morality, because if He did, He would not create the world and they would not have to fix it, and apparently there is a religious purpose that is supposed to come through revelation. And my question is, perhaps moral values are also religious values and that is the purpose of creation (similar to what you said that the prohibition of “thou shalt not murder” in the Torah is religious and not moral)?
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1. There are values that we do not do to sustain society as the categorical imperative and more
2. If the purpose of moral values was only to sustain society without a religious purpose, why did God give us a choice in these matters?
1. A categorical order is also for the advancement of the company. See column 122.
2. Because he wanted us to advance the company by choice. So it is also personal advancement.
2. I didn't really understand what the point is in advancing society by choice. Often, people by choice only spoil the world. Isn't it better to create a reformed world in which people act only with justice and honesty without choice?
I wrote that without choice, actions do not correct the person themselves.
Sorry for the late response
But what is the purpose of correcting man if not a religious purpose?
I didn't understand.
If I understood correctly, your claim that after we know that there is a God who wants something, you suggest that He wants man to choose to behave according to the morality and values that are inherent in us in order to have a reformed society, and therefore you ask if God would not create a world and not have to correct it.
And therefore I asked whether God does want us to choose to behave according to human morality and His purpose is (also) religious (correcting the unknowns, etc.) and it is reasonable that the purpose is religious because if the whole purpose is to have a reformed society that creates a world without choice and that everyone behaves like machines according to moral values, then what is the need for man to correct himself and not for his creation to be corrected if not for a higher religious purpose?
I hope I managed to explain myself
I'm still not sure I understand. Are you suggesting that religious goals should not be different from morality, but rather that they should be achieved by choosing the moral good itself?
In principle, this is possible, but I answered that above.
You answered above that it is unlikely because we know what the purpose of these values is (to sustain society). But we do not know what the purpose is for choosing these values, that is, the benefit of the actions is known to us, but what purpose does it come from choice if there is no religious purpose in it?
I will ask a little differently: Do we and even Gentiles today choose to act according to moral values? Is there a religious purpose in this or is it just to sustain society?
Both. As Maimonides wrote at the end of Chapter 5, Chapter 8, Kings. They do it for a moral reason and also because it is a mitzvah. If they do not do it out of commitment to the commandment, it is not a mitzvah but only a moral act.
And to say that we know what the purpose of election is for the correction of man itself requires an explanation of what the point is in man correcting himself and not being created corrected if not for a religious purpose.
Why, if they observe for the sake of morality, is it not considered a commandment of God? After all, the validity of morality is that God stands behind it and commands it, in fact, the one who instilled moral values in us (although it is not a commandment from the Torah of Moses, it is a commandment from God Himself)?
A person cannot be created perfect, because part of perfection is the self-improvement itself. Look for columns on this here. But there may also be a religious purpose in this.
Morality is not a commandment from God but an expectation we have of ourselves. A commandment is created only if there is an explicit commandment. In Lavin, for example, it is only when it is written, “Keep thyself from evil.” Therefore, “And do what is right and good” is not included in the number of commandments.
If I understood what you meant by defining a high-need work secret. Isn't this called a religious purpose, which is certainly not just for the purpose of maintaining society?
If there is a religious purpose in this, doesn't it remove a loop in the chain from God to the Torah?
1. Not necessarily. Choice can serve to complete man's morals, and therefore cannot be an explanation for the creation of man. That he would not be created and there would be no need for his completion.
2. Even if choice could provide an answer to the purpose of our creation, as I wrote, a tradition has come down to us that the mission is different.
I think we have exhausted it.
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