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The Physico-theological View in the Shadow of the Creation of Time

שו”תThe Physico-theological View in the Shadow of the Creation of Time
asked 8 years ago

Hello Rabbi,
I spoke to someone about the physio-theological evidence that the rabbi presents in the third notebook.
He claims that the entire assumption and understanding that a complex thing is distilled from an element (like all our other understandings ) is only in a world where the element of time prevails.
But we are unable to understand a reality in which time does not exist. And because time was created in the Big Bang, it would be foolish to make assumptions about what existed before the Big Bang.

The Rabbi did not address this point in the book, I would be happy if he could answer.
PS After searching the internet, I saw that even in the Davidson Institute of Science video – when asked what preceded the Big Bang – they give the same answer.
See here https://davidson.weizmann.ac.il/online/maagarmada/astrophysics/%D7%9E%D7%94-%D7%94%D7%99%D7%94-%D7%9C%D7%A4%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A4%D7%A5-%D7%94%D7%92%D7%93%D7%95%D7%9C-%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%94-%D7%92%D7%A8%D7%9D-%D7%9C%D7%95

It is strange that Rabbi Kofizkai ignored this weighty philosophical difficulty!

Good Saturday!

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0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 8 years ago

First, why is it strange that a physicist ignores a philosophical point?
Secondly, I did not ignore it. The principle of causality and the second law of thermodynamics are the result of common sense and a priori logic, not of observation. Even in our world, observation does not yield the principle of causality (as David Hume has already shown). Therefore, there is no reason to assume that this does not apply to the creation of the world itself. It may not, but the burden of proof is on those who claim otherwise. To the same extent, a person can claim that the laws of physics were measured on the Earth and do not apply to the moon or in deep space. This may be true, but our assumption is that they do apply there, and the burden of proof is on those who claim otherwise. The same is true regarding the validity of the laws of physics for the future. We have only seen them in the past, so who said it was right to assume that they will remain valid in the future? All of these assumptions are common sense assumptions, and whoever disagrees with them has the burden of proof on them. Whoever accepts all of them and only disagrees with them in relation to creation is simply biased. And regarding the Davidson Institute, to be honest, their name comes up here from time to time in connection with these kinds of silly arguments, and you shouldn’t be impressed by the scientific trappings they adorn themselves with. They understand this about as well as you do.
In addition, one must distinguish between the principle of causality and the second law. Regarding the principle of causality, it is perhaps appropriate to say that it is the result of observation (not as a common claim), and then to claim that it did not apply to the creation of the world (even then, this is speculation, because why assume that observation does not yield a logic that also prevailed then?). But the second law (that a complex thing is distilled into its component parts) is actually probabilistic logic, and as such it is very strange to say that it does not apply to creation. Why would something complex be created just by chance?
Ultimately, this is a really weak argument. Just meaningless bias. Anyone who wants to remain an atheist and realizes that his situation is quite difficult, fights for it with all his might, and in the process, he gives up all the principles of common sense. Thus, in the name of science (!) he raises stupid hypotheses that very emphatically contradict scientific thinking. And in the end, believers are accused of unscientific thinking. I wonder!

נועם replied 8 years ago

Thank you very much for the extended response!
As you have kindly presented here, in the physico-theological view there are two components:
Component 1 - The Second Law
Component 2 - The Principle of Causality
I do agree with you that there is no reason why the Second Law should not be valid in every reality, with or without time.
But regarding component 2 of the principle of causality,
whether we assume that it is based on a priori logic or observation, it certainly exists only in a world in which the time component occurs. But a world without time A. How would there be change in it. B. Why assume that the principle of causality exists in it? After all, it is time that allows for causality. C. To what extent is it possible for cause and effect relationships to exist in it? Is it really worth adding another intelligent entity to the explanation for a probability so low that it is possible?

Noam

מיכי Staff replied 8 years ago

The second law contains the principle of causality in this matter. After all, if there is something complex, it has a component. That is the argument.
Beyond that, your words indicate that the world could not have been created at all because its creation is change, and in a world without time there is no change. This is absurd of course, since it was created. Indeed, it is not true that in a world without time there are no changes. At most, they are not described in terms of time.

נועם replied 8 years ago

The evidence says that it is plausible for the dependence that complexity has an element from the hypothesis that complexity arose by chance and has no element, but that does not mean that it is a logical “law”.

This is said to be “in the absence of one”, or that it is possible for a non-deterministic change to exist in a world without time that does not depend on a previous cause to cause it to happen.

מיכי Staff replied 8 years ago

The first sentence seems meaningless to me. And the second belongs to the realm of Purim chatter. I hope you will allow me to withdraw at this point.

גֹּרֶן הָאָטָד replied 8 years ago

Sorry to interrupt the fascinating discussion
Is the rabbi an apostate in the concept of the ’in being one’? (As in choice and knowledge, the authority of customs and regulations even when the reason has been abolished, the authority of the rabbis and neighborhood rabbis, the book of Torah of Moses, the Toshab”a from Sinai in the broadest sense, and so on and so forth.)
This is a concept that is clear to every Yeshivas’R…

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