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The questions that haunt them

שו”תCategory: faithThe questions that haunt them
asked 9 years ago

Hello Rabbi Michi,

There is an issue that has been bothering me for a long time. Of course, naturally – since it is a matter of criticism, and I appreciate and owe you quite a bit of my personal development – I do not like to open the subject directly, but from time to time I receive stimuli for this, such as the following, and today, following another stimulus, I decided in my heart to share it with you.

The catalysts are your students in the Magal (and others not from the Magal) who are motivated *because of your lessons*.

From my personal acquaintance with some of them, I know that – at least some of them – returned the question precisely because of this and not for extraneous motives.
The process is like this – a religious-Orthodox-open-minded-regular young man comes to Magal with the aim, presumably, of studying Torah/Judaism, etc.
With you, he hears about a Judaism that is much thinner than what he knows, while quickly and sharply shattering the dogmas he grew up with, some of which are very basic in his eyes (the afterlife, prayer, etc.).
You don’t have to be very knowledgeable about the human soul to understand that people tend to get rid of patterns in bundles. If not the Avva, then neither is the Torah from heaven, Medha Lita, Ha Nami Lita.
It’s just for the sake of it.
I am aware of your position (and I do not disagree with it) regarding the issue of sakakim, etc., and that if a person becomes an atheist because of what he heard, then he was an atheist even before that, etc., but there is an issue here that seems to me to be missed.
Even those who are not interested in the truth in general (like me) do not have to *immediately* correct people. There are people at different stages in life who are not built to hear the whole truth (in your opinion) at once. And hearing it like that causes them to have a strong psychological tendency to discard the rest as well. It’s not that everyone has computers with a powerful processor that simply analyzes your words and weighs them in a way, there is a lot of psychology here of how things are said and with what kind of cancellation the new authority (=Kether) relates to its old dogmas.
Did you know that one of your close students (in his eyes at least, I don’t know how personal your relationship is) deteriorated greatly spiritually last summer?
I knew him before, and I know him now. In my opinion (and in his opinion!) this was done purely from your lessons, according to the above process.
Before I applied, I spoke with my friends, some of whom are former students of the Magal and some of whom are not (all of whom know and appreciate your teachings), and they agreed with me that this is a problem.
I don’t know what the solution is (= a way to instill your opinions without insulting guys), but I saw the problem as a must-have.

Today I heard about another DTLSH graduate from Magal, so I couldn’t resist sending it 🙁

I would be very happy to hear your opinion,

thanks,


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0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 9 years ago
Hello Y. You have indeed asked a difficult question and it is good that you raised it. It is also important for me to know the truth about things. Even without the information you provided, I am undecided about the principle of openness. It has obvious disadvantages, but it also has advantages. Some use it to get by, but others find it a solution to the hardships that would have caused them to get by (and I know of several of them). So what should I do now? Should I consider one or the other? My principled argument is that since there are disadvantages and advantages here and there, I will do what the truth (to my knowledge and understanding) says. If the truth were only beneficial and telling the truth (in my opinion) was only harmful, there would be a dilemma: truth versus benefit. But if both truth have benefits and harms, and both the truth and the truth have benefits and harms, it is unreasonable in my opinion to prefer lying to the truth. It is better to tell the truth. I’ll put it another way. The approach of those who speak in the conventional way has led to a lot of “datlosh”, without a doubt. I assume that you know no less people who have abandoned the conventional way. Would you also suggest to them that they consider speaking differently because of what is happening to their students and those who listen to them? It seems to me that conventional speech leads to much more secularization than my speech (how many students did we start in the standard yeshiva? Quite a few). In a certain sense, all the secularization around us today is a result of the traditional religious approach and perception that caused people to abandon it en masse (from the Enlightenment period). In most cases, I speak to people who are refugees from the conventional way and try to save them. It is certainly not right to speak to such people in the conventional discourse, and perhaps my discourse can be beneficial. I assume that there are many times when I fail to save them (I meet and correspond with such masses), and then it seems that I caused the datlosh, but perhaps I just did not prevent it. The conclusion is that there is no safe path. Therefore, one must do what is true and not seek the beneficial path at the expense of the truth (because there is no such path). Beyond all of this, I’m a little skeptical about how accurately the TLDs who claim it was because of what they heard from me are actually describing the situation (they’re not necessarily lying, but it’s convenient for them to cling to it even unconsciously). I believe that most of them had their thoughts and hunches before, and it could have happened even without me. My words were perhaps a catalyst or an enabler (I don’t discount that, of course), or at least something that didn’t prevent it (and so on). The interpretation they give to this in retrospect is that the step was taken because of what they heard from me. As you already mentioned, if they agree with what I said, then they were TLDs in disguise even earlier, and if they don’t agree with them, then my words shouldn’t have any effect. By the way, I think I know who you were talking about last summer. If that’s true, then the influence on him wasn’t from my recent talk (when I had already become a complete infidel), but from reading my early books (Two Carts, etc.). But there I really said pretty basic things, and to be careful about that means simply keeping your mouth and your head shut. Studying philosophy and general thought is always dangerous because when people think, they may also come to RL conclusions. But regarding the requirement not to open your head at all and to close your thought, I have no hesitation at all. There is room for debate about the question of how far to open and reveal, and I spoke about that above. I still feel very sorry for all of this, but I don’t see any other way that would be more appropriate to act. —————————- Y: Greetings Rabbi Michi, Thank you for your reply. First of all, it is clear to me beyond any doubt that openness saves a great many people (especially the good ones). This is a fact that I do not dispute either. In my yeshiva, they would joke that “Rabbi Michai is a red cow – he purifies the impure and defiles the pure.” These impure ones (who think for themselves) are undoubtedly saved, in part, by your books and mishnah. And for that, you deserve a great deal of thanks. But in my opinion, these things are true only as long as you defend traditional Judaism (the Ha-Rabbiology), not beyond that (and not just because I disagree with the reforms). In traditional Judaism, it is better to avoid rabbinical questions and to be open (to those who ask anyway) even at the cost of rabbinical questions, for the reasons you wrote. I will try to present my position: As long as your teaching was more or less identified with traditional Judaism (two carts, the hermeneutics of canonical texts, etc.), the situation was that anyone who was open (=asked questions) would read your books – if they accepted – what’s good. If they didn’t accept – this is the best we could offer (for questions of the skeptical kind). The problem began when you changed your approach and started a diet for Judaism. I don’t mean to dissuade you from this – both because it’s not the subject and because I don’t think I can – but now people who open up to your teachings are required to accept a much thinner Torah and to give up a lot of dogmas, etc., with all that entails (as I wrote in the first letter). Of course they can’t accept your words, but again, as a matter of fact, people are not robots, and they sometimes give your opinion a lot of weight. Therefore, in the past, people who opened up could receive an answer that was psychologically much easier for them to accept (Judaism as they knew it, only reasoned). Now they are required to move from Orthodoxy to a strange kind of Judaism (“alienated”, “Leibovitchian”, “useless” – I’ve heard these expressions from others, one from the DTL and one who isn’t (but has undoubtedly been tempered)). So they throw everything away because it’s not reasonable (Madha Litha, etc.) or because it’s too strange to be religious with such unusual views on religion. Regarding the motivation of those who cheat – there is no doubt that there are many reasons for cheating and it is difficult to diagnose/name them. That is why I tried to focus on those I know personally and their opinions about themselves. The one from last summer was not someone who had read your books before (not B. if you meant him), but someone who came to a reasonable religious Magal, went to hear Rabbi Michi because he “heard he was interesting” and when he was exposed, he slowly settled for a little and then a lot (I talked to him during the process, and I witnessed the process) and in the end he abandoned everything. I will mention again that he (and I assume others too) values ​​your opinion *very* and in my opinion (only, of course) it was a significant catalyst. A point that is important for me to dwell on, you wrote: “As you already mentioned, if they agree with what I say, then they would have been undercover agents even earlier, and if they don’t agree with them, then my words shouldn’t have any effect.” This dichotomy is, in fact, very inaccurate. People are very psychologically influenced. If they admire you, then they accept your words more than they would have if they had not admired you. For them, you are a very smart person who is well-versed in Torah, philosophy, and science, and therefore your assertions are very significant. When these assertions shatter many dogmas for them and/or lead them to a thin and strange Judaism in their eyes, psychology inclines them to throw the baby out with the bathwater (either because they get rid of bunches of dogmas or because it is very difficult for them to believe in a thin Judaism as described above, even if you do succeed.). This is not a situation where they weighed things up and discovered, following your claims, that they were always infidels, as the dichotomy assumes. I deduce all of this from conversations with them (there aren’t that many, but still) throughout the process and from my own observation. Moreover, reason allows it to happen; It is a common phenomenon that people gather around a wise person and accept some of his words without question. The problem is that here some of his words are a significant catalyst for Datlosh and the like. Therefore, as a Mishak, I don’t have a solution, but the solution, if there is one, should, in my opinion, be in the psychological field (to somehow get people not to throw everything away after throwing away some of their beliefs or not to accept what you say at all :)). In any case, the way things are currently being conveyed to the ADN is very problematic. Your Honor, may my words serve as a weight to sway your hesitation in the final lines of where to begin. Thanks again, ————————— Rabbi: Hello. I understood your words and I will definitely think about them.

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אביתר replied 9 years ago

As a reader of the site, I too have to agree strongly with Y’, certainly being open-minded is the right thing to do, but the Rabbi is already in the middle of a debate, of course this tactic may be correct in a personal debate – “even in your opinion”, but it is not clear that it is suitable for the public

מיכי Staff replied 9 years ago

I don't tend to think that there is an “over” in relation to openness. Openness means that we discuss every question in its entirety and don't hide it. Therefore, I don't see where to draw the line. If there was something that I was convinced was harmful and of no use in publishing, perhaps there would be room for discussion (and even then I'm not sure). But I don't think that's the case.
In general, I think that we need to distinguish between three types of criticism:
1. There are questions that should not be brought up for discussion.
2. There are answers that should not be written openly (even though they are correct).
3. There are incorrect answers, so it's a shame to write them because they are harmful and incorrect.
Criticism 3 is just an argument about my positions and not about openness itself. Criticism 2 can only arise where the answer brings harm without benefit. Criticism 1 is only relevant if I make up the problems and no one else is bothered by them (otherwise it is important to discuss them in detail and not leave people to deal with them alone).

y replied 9 years ago

To dear Rabbi Michael Avraham.

I finally found time to write to you what I have wanted to write for a long time.
My name is Y., a second-year student at one of the yeshivahs, and I am the one who published (together with a friend) the article on the Datlash on the Srougim website and on other websites (the article that you followed with the post about the repeaters in question). At the time, we spoke briefly on the phone.
I am sending this letter to express my immense appreciation for you and your special work (of course, Oren, the editor of the website, is also included in this praise), which unfortunately I do not know as well as he does, or even close to it.
I frequently enjoy your wonderful website, the lessons and articles, the intellectual honesty and the way things are presented.
I wrote the article on the repeaters in question following my experiences in the high school yeshivah, where I saw before my eyes how my classmates were fed up with “old Judaism,” and since no alternative was presented, they left the religion full of sky-high self-confidence and pride in their “dark” religious friends who could not even understand why they They repeated the question.
Their choice was between Judaism full of unacceptable ideas (mysticism, “heresy” in science, extreme right-wingism, “prohibition” of using thinking alone, etc., the last generations are necessarily complete fools compared to the first, the sages said all the legends and laws in the Holy Spirit, so they must be true, etc.), and “enlightened” atheism, and without a doubt the latter prevails.
While I was still studying, following exposure to all the rustic views brought by the aforementioned students, I was forced to slowly build a more and more “rational” Judaism for myself. I jumped at every rational opportunity, and I had to find out for myself.
One of the difficulties that bothered me (among many others) was the issue of the “Okimitot” that is crammed into the Gemara (although this is not a serious theological difficulty, I was bothered by the fact that things that are not written in it are inserted into the Mishnah).
I began to think of an idea that would solve the issue, and it is similar to what you say in the series of lessons on Okimitot (it was still far from the complete picture that the rabbi managed to present in the lessons).
I don’t understand why a young man has to go through 20 years of his life before he encounters (if at all, because most people will never encounter them) your lessons on Okimitot (I am taking this as an example, since this is not a sensational innovation from a traditional perspective, such as knowledge and choice, providence, etc. It is a subject that I have no Explain how it took us 1500 years to solve it), my feeling is that we have long since abandoned independent thinking, which on the one hand makes it easier for us to preserve Judaism from generation to generation (which seems good in the short term), and on the other hand prevents us from reaching in-depth explanations on many topics (dangerous in the long term) such as your explanation of the existence of the law, topics that do not have the scent of “Reform” that could explain our lack of progress on them.
I remember how during the discussions in Israel about the words of the Rabbinate regarding the woman of good looks, I was left without a decent explanation for myself (I felt this with other people as well), although sometimes rabbis explain this topic in a tiny bit here and there, but I have never seen an organized, systematic and consistent approach to these topics like yours.
From a survey I conducted with very famous rabbis who are considered good in the field of answering questions of faith, almost none of them are knowledgeable about the issues that really bother young people (revelations in other tribes, Torah and morality) and do not dare to express “new” opinions (such as the Shelah’s method regarding free choice, which almost no one knows, and even one of the rabbis who mentions this opinion rejects it immediately at the beginning of his article). Not to mention “proofs” for G-d.
Since I studied for years with these friends of mine, I have no doubt that they would have become acquainted with your character at an early stage – they were in a completely different place (at least some of them).
I know exactly what issues bothered them, and these are the issues you are talking about.
Two of my questions that I asked on the site were about the Exodus from Egypt in archaeology and the mass revelations in other tribes, as the rabbi himself can see, these questions are placed first in the ‘Popular Responsa’, I knew that these are central issues that are very disturbing To people, so I asked them.
Personally, the rabbi shaped a central part of my faith, and I hardly find anyone else who can quench my thirst (maybe the rabbi can refresh me).
I sometimes wander through youth forums and refer people to your site. Several of them have already told me that they have changed their minds about faith, etc., in addition to people to whom I have given individual ideas from your teachings and this has helped them, so that the rabbi's hand will be strengthened in his important work of answering questions on the site.
Your teachings are a unique solution for many people, and I regret that many of them take the step of repeating the question before acknowledging it.
In connection with the criticisms raised against your openness, I think that there are enough semi-conservative rabbis, a third and a quarter, and we cannot give up on a rabbi who will fully open up all the most difficult issues.
We don't have anyone else who does this the way the Rabbi does, and despite the cost this may have caused some people (it is debatable whether it is a cause or a catalyst), the benefit outweighs it tenfold, and the Rabbi constitutes a very strong rear line of defense for many people.
With immense appreciation and gratitude for your extensive investment in youth (on the website and in the books) and in general, and with great anticipation for the release of the trilogy,
J.

מיכי Staff replied 9 years ago

Thank you very much. Indeed, things are necessary for me (and perhaps for others as well). I take the criticisms raised here very seriously, but my feeling was that there is still justification for this discussion and openness, and beyond simply telling the truth, its benefits outweigh its harm. Your words certainly strengthen my opinion. Chen Chen.

muli replied 6 years ago

“The conclusion is that there is no safe way. Therefore, one must do what is true and not seek the beneficial way at the expense of the truth (because there is no such way).”
Perhaps the way that will bring profits without the risks is related to style. It will perhaps be less interesting to those who are only looking for action. (The cynical writing does not stem from a desire to do interesting things, but from a cynical nature, but again, in order to profit without risks, it is perhaps worth making an effort and changing the style of presentation)
Another great benefit is that the target audience will be multiplied by a lot. (I know of many who are eager to read and hear and yet refrain, also for the reasons mentioned by Y’, but not only, but also for the style.)

י' ב replied 10 months ago

Rabbi Michi, you wrote:

“I am debating about the principle of openness. It has obvious disadvantages, but it also has advantages. Some use it to get by, but others find it a solution to the hardships that would otherwise make them want to get by (and I know of several of them). So what should I do now? Should I consider one or the other? My principled argument is that since there are disadvantages and advantages here and there, I will do what the truth (to my knowledge and understanding) says. If doubts were only beneficial and telling the truth (in my opinion) were only harmful, there would be a dilemma: truth versus benefit. But if both truth have benefits and harms and doubts have benefits and harms, it is unreasonable in my opinion to prefer lying to truth. Lying is better than telling the truth.”

It seems that this is a false dichotomy, Y’ did not suggest that you tell and spread holy lies, but that you restrain yourself a little, and not kill all the cows, not at once, and not to everyone openly, if you write shallowly like Zamir Cohen, for example (and I apologize in advance for the parable, that's what came to my mind in the first second) then you will be Zamir Cohen and not Michi, and there is already a Sapir Zamiri Cohen.
And if so, the comparison is out of place, and in choosing your balance and restraint, the harm in holy lies is irrelevant, because you will not use them anyway.
Attacking everything that is holy actually helps, most people who are not for it will not reach you, but those who do turn to you for wisdom and because you are right in some of your words may have a negative impact on them when you did not have to talk and write so much, and even more so in such a dismissive tone.
Sorry for the late response
Y. B.

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