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The three weeks

שו”תThe three weeks
asked 6 years ago

In the SD
peace,
I wanted to ask what the Rabbi’s opinion is on the three weeks as seen in Tractate Ketuvot and the extended version in the book Yoel Moshe.
It seems simple that they are indeed halachic rulings, and this is why Rabbi Zira evaded Rabbi Yehuda, who ruled that even the migration of an individual from Babylon is prohibited. In contrast, Rabbi Zira rules that the three weeks only apply to the public not to go up the wall.


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0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 6 years ago
I didn’t understand the argument. We are talking about oaths (probably legends) and not about an actual prohibition. Whether it is about an individual or a group, it is still an oath. Beyond that, even if one takes the shavuot seriously (and almost no one does), the Chazo’a already wrote in the letter that it is about leaving the place of Torah for Israel, which is a lesser place. Today, this is not the case. In general, Palpoli and Yoel Moshe are a bad joke. It’s about recruiting the entire world and his wife and tendentious interpretations of various legends in favor of a pre-determined trend.

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אנרכיסט replied 6 years ago

How can it be said that this is legendary, since R’ Yehuda, in his opinion, did not want to immigrate to Israel from Babylon because of these oaths.
Only R’ Zira maintained that they were for the public not to immigrate by force, but not for the individual. In any case, according to these understandings, we see that the Amoraim took this very literally.
Many of the poskim took the oaths seriously, as can be seen at length in the ten volumes written here:
https://www.yhe.center/yalkuthishbatietchem

What does the Rabbi think after the establishment of the state, were the oaths annulled?

And so, for example, in the poskim here:
Baale HaTosafot, Paski Tosafot, Ketubot, Ot Shetza; Rabbi Yeshaya ber R”r Mali di-Trani ‘Harid” HaRishon’, Paski Ri”d, Mas’ Megillah page 10, and more
Jump up
↑ Rabbi Yaakov Shasfortz, Responsa Ohel Yaakov, page 68, page 3, and more; Rabbi Shmuel Abuhab ‘Rashab’, Responsa Davar Shmuel, Teshuva Sheah, form written on behalf of the General Yeshiva Ya’A on the subject of Shabtai Zvi and Nathan Ha'Azati; Ibid., Teshuva Sheah, form written by one person who wrote on behalf of the General Yeshiva to another on the subject of the above; Rabbi Ezra Eli Hacohen Twil, Responsa E Sofer, Mazza Chaim, Drush D’ Shabbat Kala; Rabbi Shabtai Beer, Responsa Be'er Eshak, Question 1 (and repeated by Rabbi Natan Zvi Pesis, Assifat Zaken – Berchot, opening to Tractate Berchot); Rabbi Shabtai Beer, Responsa Be'er Eshak, Question 29 on the laments that are said in Ashmorat; Rabbi Elazar Flekelsh, Responsa Teshuvah Ma'ahabah, Part 1, Mark 17; Rabbi Yaakov Ashkenazi Am'din Ya'avetz, Responsa Sha'ilat Ya'avetz, Part 1, Mark 18; Rabbi Rafael Elazar Ibn Tovo Halevi, Responsa Pe'kodat Elazar Part 1, Mark 18, D&H and Shem, Line 18; Rabbi Chaim Palagi, Responsorial Psalm of Neshat Kol Chai, Part 14, page 40, page 122 (here page 123); Rabbi Avraham Lowenstam, Responsorial Psalm of Tzrur Chaim, Part 123, page 124-125; Ibid., Ibid., to page 121-122 (and repeated again in Rabbi Yosef Shaul HaLevi Nathanson, Divrei Shaul, p. 123; Exodus; Rabbi Yehoshua Yosef Freil, Sfatei Daat, Pesach, article 6, page 123); Ibid., ibid., page 121-122; Ibid., Ibid., Pa E”a; Rabbi Avraham Binyamin Zeev Wolf Hamburg, Responsa Shmola Binyamin, Part B; – Nachalat Binyamin, Drushach Dz”ch – and Din Germeiza Ha-Ha-Ba, recent, leaf 29 E”a; Holy letter from Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Le'Erin and Rabbi Eliyahu Avraham Prinz, to Rabbi Yoel Ungar of Rechnitz (taken from the Sefa”k Responsa Tishvat Riva”a Part A, Section A); Rabbi Tzadok Ha-Cohen of Lublin, Divrei Sofrim, Section 14; The Rebbe of Sochchov, Rabbi Avraham Bornstein, Avni Nezer, Part 14, Section 112; Rabbi David Friedman, Sheilat David, New Testaments on the Matter of the Seventh, page 17b; Rabbi Yosef Razin, Haroguch Bar, Tzfat Tzafnat Panach, Section 13, Section 2, page 15 (and repeated again by Rabbi Uri Moeneshter, Karnei Ram, Section 2 – regarding the matter of an oath if it also applies to the newborn); Rabbi Meir Lerner, Responsorial Hadar Carmel, Part 8, 2nd ed.; Rabbi Avraham Zeev Wolf Frankel, Responsorial Maschiv Kehalacha, Part 17, ed.; Rabbi David Menachem Monish Babad, Responsorial Havatzelet Hasharon, Mahad, 23rd ed.; Rabbi Yechiel Michal Hibner, Responsorial Hadar – Part 2, ed.; Lula Darbi, Mahadura Tanina, 2nd ed. 29 Sec. Ratze, Reply to Rabbi Chaim Hezki's Medini, page 44; Rabbis of the Hamburg Beit Din Tzedek, Ela Divrei Bharti, pages 1-24; Rabbi Moshe Sofer of Pressburg, Hatam Sofer, Part 1, Teshuvah 62 (and repeated again by Rabbi Issachar Berish Gruibart, Hatam Sofer, Part 1, page 13, page 68; Rabbi Malchiel Zvi Halevi Tenenbaum, Hatam Sofer, Part 3, page 8); Ibid., Ibid., Hatam Sofer, Part 2, Yoreh De'ah, page 10; Ibid., (Yoreh De'ah) page 17; Ibid., Responsa Hatam Sofer Part 1, Teshuva 106, 6221; Ibid., Responsa Hatam Sofer, Part 5, Omissions, Mark 106; Ibid., Responsa Hatam Sofer Part 66, Likutim, Teshuva Fu; Rabbi Yosef Shaul Nathanson, Responsa Shaul Veshav Mehador Talitaa Part 1, Mark Ramach; Rabbi Moshe Nachum Yerushalmisky, Responsa Be'er Moshe, Klil Tiferet, Part 2, Mark 25; Rabbi Avraham Shmuel Binyamin Sofer HaKhats, Responsa Katif Sofer Orach Chaim Mark 15; Rabbi Chaim Chezki Medini ‘Shadi Hamed’, Shadi Hamed – Part 2, Rules of the Hayat System, Rule M’ (and this rule also appears in each of his volumes in ’Moda Rabba’); Rabbi Issachar Berish Gruibart, Responsa Divrei Issachar, Mark 13, Leaf 68, p. 2; ibid., ibid., Mark 17 (and repeated again in Rabbi Menachem Zvi Eichenstein, Responsa Peri Yehoshua, C’ S’ S’, End of Leaf 6, p. 1; Reply to Rabbi Yerucham Zeev ‘R’Fischel Wolf’ Shraga Tsechnowitz); Rabbi Gershon Litch Segal Rosenbaum, Meravich Gad (after Responsorial Psalm), page 41; Rabbi Yechiel Michal Halevi Epstein, Aruch Hashulchan, Introduction to Hoshen Mishpat, Kvod Melech; 2000 Rebbe of Munkatz, Rabbi Chaim Elazar Shapira, Responsorial Psalm Minchat Elazar, Part 5, 62; 12; Ibid., Ibid., page 17; Ibid., page 17 (and repeated again by Rabbi Shimon Yisrael Posen, Torat Alef, 22 Maccabees 27); Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu Rabinowitz, Responsorial Psalm Ner LaMaor, page 13; Rabbi Yitzchak Zioni, Responsorial Psalm of Yitzchak, chapter 24, 17, 17a; Rabbi Chaim Eliezer Nitzberg, Responsorial Psalm of Eliezer, part 2, Laws of Vows, chapter Rlev, page 51, 17a; Rabbi Malchiel Zvi Halevi Tenenbaum, Responsorial Psalm of Malchiel, part 3, chapter 8; Rabbi Shaul Barach the 1st, Shaul Shaal, introduction, page 1, 17b; Rabbi Yaakov Perger, Responsorial Psalm of Sheilat Yaakov, part 1, 23, 11a, page 22, 17b; Rabbi Yitzhak Glick, Responsa Chinuch Beit Yitzhak, Part Abe'a, Section 11, page 192; Rabbi Netanel HaCohen Fried, Responsa Peni M'bin, Part 14, page 27; Rabbi David Halevi Ish Horowitz, Responsa Imrei David, Section 11; Rabbi Ze'ev Wolf Nussenbaum, Responsa Ziv Levanon, Drosh Ilana Dhai, Section 14; Ibid., Ibid., Section 16; Rabbi Menachem Mendel Kirshbaum, Responsa Menachem Mashib, Part 2, Section 10, page 298; Rabbi Nathan Neta Littar, Responsorial Psalm of Nathan, Part 1, 16th century, page 161; Rabbi Mordechai Rothenberg, Responsorial Psalm of Yad Mordechai, Part 1, 16th century; Rabbi Mordechai Yehuda Leib Winkler, Responsorial Psalm of Mordechai, Likutei Teshuvot, Mark Kama Letter 3; Shem, Responsorial Psalm of Mordechai Talitai, Life, Mark 49; Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Meislich, Zer Zahav, Par Exodus, Letter 5, p. 22 (taken from Responsa ‘Mbekshei Hashem’ Ch”b); Rabbi Bezalel Ze'ev Shafran ‘Gaon of Bekau’, Responsa of the Rabbis, Part 1 (O”H, Yo”D) Mark 34; Rabbi [[Resp. Bezalel Ze'ev Shafran ‘Gaon of Bekau’, Responsa of the Rabbis, Part 3 (Hoshen Mishpat) Mark 40; Rabbi Naftali Hirtsaka Henig, Responsa Tiferet Naftali, Part Yo”D, 6’ Fach, Se’ 3’, pp. 100-11; Ibid., Ibid., Part A, Section 228; Rabbi Yehuda Greenwald, Responsorial Psalm of Yehuda, Section 147, p. 57; Rabbi Yitzchak Weiss, Responsorial Psalm of Yitzchak, Section Telo; Rabbi Yitzchak Yaakov Weiss, Responsorial Psalm of Minchat Yitzchak, Section 10, Section 10; Rabbi Yaakov Yehezkiyyahu Greenwald of Papa, Responsorial Psalm of Mishpatich to Yaakov, Letters; Rabbi Yoel Teitelbaum of Satmar, Responsorial Psalm of Yoel 61, Section 147, p. 57; 11 (And it is repeated again by the 2nd Rebbe of Almaatz, Rabbi Hananya Yom Tov Lipa Deutsch, Teherat Yom Tov, Part 6, Yesod Yosef on the matters of repairing the covenant, repairing this sin, letter 10); Ibid., Responsorial Psalm of Joel 3:2, Part 5:1, 111, Letter 7, pp. 11-13; Ibid., Ibid., Part 5:1, 111, Letter 22, pp. 122-123; Ibid., and Joel Moshe, Ibid., on redemption and exchange; Rabbi Ovadia HaDaya, Responsorial Psalm of Yeshil Avdi, Part 6, Ch. 19, page 19; Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, Transfer of Territories from the Land of Israel in Place of Pikuach Nefesh, 7. Mitzvot Yishuv A’i Bezh’z and the Prohibition Not to Provoke the Lord; Rabbi David HaCohen Rosenberg Shlit’a, Responsorial Psalm of Minchat David, Part 2, Ch. 27, page 11; Rabbi Shalom ben Shmuel David Kreuz, Responsorial Psalm of Divrei Shalom, Ch. 2, J. D. C. Kent; Rabbi Shalom ben Shmuel David Kreuz, Responsorial Psalm Divrei Shalom 83, section 33, notes to 88, section 20; Rabbi Ari Leib Baron, Responsorial Psalm Birkat Yehuda, section 17, regarding the law before the blind, note *); Rabbi Hillel Lichtenstein of Krasna, Responsorial Psalm Chonat Halev, introduction, letter 5; Rabbi Natan Geschtettner, Responsorial Psalm Lehorot Natan, part 2, section 60, letter 9; Rabbi Natan Geschtettner, Responsorial Psalm Lehorot Natan, part 4, section 13, letter 6; Rabbi Shmuel David Hacohen Monk, booklet Responsorial Psalm in the absence of a vision, reply to Siman 11, pp. 14-15; Ibid., Responsorial Psalm in the absence of a vision, part 3, Yoreh De'ah, section 40; Regarding praying in a place where a prayer for the peace of the kingdom of the children of the Pharisees is said, pp. 22-23; Ibid., Responsorial Psalm in the absence of a vision, part 3, Yoreh De'ah, section 50; What is the war of a mitzvah from the standpoint of the law, pp. 11-15; Ibid., Responsorial Psalm in the absence of a mitzvah from the standpoint of the law, pp. 13-15; Ibid., Responsorial Psalm in the absence of a mitzvah from the standpoint of the law, pp. 14-19; 11-12; Ibid., Pa'at Shdach – Mesila Na'ela, Yoreh De'ah, Hilkot Yin Nesach Akko, Se'a; Md-Ma, p. 16; Ibid., Responsorial Pa'at Shdach Part 2, Section 38, p. 50; Avd Avengwar, Rabbi Menashe Klein ‘Menashe HaKataan’, Responsorial Mishnah Hilkot Part 2; Section 4; Ibid., Responsorial Mishnah Hilkot Part 5; Section 5; Section 3; Ibid., Responsorial Mishnah Hilkot Part 11; Section 1; Ibid., Responsorial Mishnah Hilkot Part 15, Section 3; Rabbi Shmuel Halevi Wasner, Responsorial Psalm of Shevat Halevi, Part 5, Introduction, Letter 12; Ibid., Responsorial Psalm of Shevat Halevi, Part 6, Sign Lag Letter B; Ibid., Responsorial Psalm of Shevat Halevi, Part 7, Introduction, Letter H; Rabbi Moshe ben Asher Sternbuch, Responsorial Psalm of Teshuvot and HaNagaot, Volume 2, Sign 14; Ibid., Responsorial Psalm of Teshuvot and HaNagaot, Part 4, Sign 27, Is it obligatory to immigrate to the Land of Israel at this time, pp. 177-18; Ibid., Responsorial Psalm of Teshuvot and HaNagaot, Part 4, Sign 27, Is it obligatory to immigrate to the Land of Israel at this time, pp. 177-18;

https://www.hamichlol.org.il/Draft:Three_Weeks#cite_note-26

מיכי Staff replied 6 years ago

Whether they did or did not do so does not have to be for halakhic reasons. People do or do not do things for non-halakhic reasons as well.
I don't know if there were shavuot, and whether and when they were canceled. What I do know is that if there is no halakhic prohibition, I see no reason to fear it. It is common sense.
I see no point in referring to such a pile of sources. In my opinion, there is no halakhic law here, and it does not appear in the main poskim. So even if the questioner in the answer to Haman's jar of manna brought it up - I'm not really bothered.

xנרכיסט replied 6 years ago

The Gemara explicitly in the Ketuvot links the reason to R’ Yehuda who was prevented from ascending because of the oath, and R’ Zira who was not afraid of it, but to the other three oaths. This is clear from the simple explanation of the issue.
Why assume that the oath will be annulled just like that? The simple explanation is that only when the Messiah Ben David comes soon in our time will it be annulled.
In the pile of these sources appear the great poskim from Torah to our time, R’ Ovadiah and the Shulam of Shevat Halevi.

בועז replied 6 years ago

To the Anarchist

If you are looking for sources, as I believe, there is a book or article by Rabbi Aviner in which he collects all the explanations (and perhaps excuses) for why the Shavuot were canceled.

If you search in Agran, you will find tens of thousands of sources from T.H. who lived in Israel and were not afraid of those Shavuot.

By the way, on Shabbat (Ma A) it seems that the main reason for R.I. is from the actions of Babylon, etc., and not because of Shavuot and Tzla.

Copenhagen Interpretation replied 6 years ago

How can a legendary oath from supposedly 2000 years ago bind a person in our time? Who exactly were the swearers there and where is the documentation?

On the other hand, we are commanded in the Torah (and in the Rambam of the Foundations of the Torah 7:7) to listen to the words of the prophets of Israel whose prophecy was proven. Ezekiel (chapter 20), whose prophecy was needed for generations, laments the refusal to return to the land from the lands of exile:

“And the offering for your souls shall not be, as you say, We shall be like the nations, like the families of the lands, to serve wood and stone.” (Serving wood and stone in context means being under foreign rule abroad.) Therefore:

“As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I will rule over you only with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with fury poured out. And I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the countries where you have been scattered with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will judge you face to face, etc.

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