What is the point of leaving the country?

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asked 9 years ago

Hello Rabbi,
Below is a discussion that may interest you:

What is the matter that appears there regarding “God left the land”? Where does this come from?

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מיכי Staff answered 9 years ago

This is taken from the Torah (a lesson I gave in the kollel). My argument is that the world proceeds according to the laws of nature and God does not direct it. At most, He intervenes rarely, if at all. Although He was probably involved at one time, just as miracles and prophecy ended, so did His involvement. Therefore, for example, the Holocaust is not a punishment for something, but a decision by the Nazis to murder Jews.
See some here: https://mikyab.net/%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%97%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%A9-%D7%90%D7%97%D7%A8-%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%94%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%9D/ ——————————— Asks: Response to the main points of your argument I think the root of the ‘problem’ lies in the huge difference in your words between the private opening as you wrote to me in the email and the summary of things as they came out in the audio. On the same subject, you are ‘shocking’ once and ‘reasonable and logical’ a second time. A. Your explanatory notes attached to the email “This is taken from the Tetshevaf (a lesson I gave in the kollel). My argument is that the world proceeds according to the laws of nature and God does not direct it. At most, He intervenes rarely, if at all. Although He was probably involved at one time, but just as miracles and prophecy ended, so did His involvement. Therefore, for example, the Holocaust is not a punishment for something but a decision by the Nazis to murder Jews.” B. Your closing remarks to Odia “My answer to Odia, then, is that God is present in everything we look at. He has no need or desire to be revealed, because He is revealed to us all the time. In the era of mature humanity, this revelation is not made through miracles and transcendent events, but rather through the laws and natural conduct, and through the norms and values He has given us in His Torah. Those who do not see this simply need to grow up. And those who do see this certainly do not need to cling to a childish romanticism of a miraculous connection with the transcendent.” Regarding part A, which is very problematic in my opinion:

“That the world proceeds according to the laws of nature and God does not manage it” – this is the explicit Aristotelian philosophical approach that Rihal came out against in anger, (almost Spinozistic). Rabbi Aviner calls the role you assign to God – “the chairman of the association of the universe who is invited only to sign the report at the end of the year.” God does not manage nature, but He is outside the world of nature and is its creator. If you agree with this, that is, you deny that you have a Spinozistic position, why call this “not managing it”? Why not call this “managing it in a way that makes it seem as if there is no manager”? Exactly as you wrote in part B? If you agree with this formulation, this is the root of the difference between what you think and what you write or say.

In paraphrase, the greatness of God in the Greek approach is expressed in the intensity of his distance (does not know, does not recognize, etc.) from the Jewish approach that says “With the help of God, the stew will succeed,” meaning that his being put into the stew pot expresses his greatness. There are countless sayings of the Sages that explain his hiding as humility or, in your language (version 2), as a God who teaches.

“At most, he rarely intervenes, if at all ,” what does he mean by intervenes? Is his concealment not his intervention? In the image of the teacher and the students, there are three situations: a teacher crying in class, a teacher who left a written text as a lesson but is absent, and a class without a teacher and without a text from the teacher. Even in situation three, where the students ask, so what should we do today in the absence of a teacher, this is super active intervention. Because they are in a class that is in a school and they are committed to something. Why add ‘if at all’? It sounds terrible!!

“But just as the miracles and prophecy ended, so did his involvement end.” Why did the miracles end? Why tie this to the end of the age of prophecy? And even if that’s true, call it “his involvement ended”? You’re actually idealizing the situation of ‘hiding the face’ while the Torah refers to it as a punishment!!

4. “Therefore, for example, the Holocaust is not a punishment for something, but rather a decision by the Nazis to murder Jews .” Where did your two levels of explanation disappear to? And where do you get what is happening in the divine system of considerations? Doesn’t this contradict the entire chapter in my example? On the other hand, your concluding remarks to Odia are heartfelt, do not arouse antagonism, and it seems to me that they also reflect your true opinion when you abandon for a moment the desire to shock or be crystal clear, as is your rational approach. Do not underestimate the aspiration that things should be heartfelt, of course not at the expense of telling the truth. Even on a deep philosophical level, there are really no miracles and nature is all a matter of terminology, everything is from God, the Blessed One. The aspiration to build the Temple and restore the institution of prophecy after the world has reached maturity in your language seems unnecessary according to your view. However, despite the words of the Maimonides, closing the circle is, in my opinion, intended to provide a response to that part of humanity and Judaism that has lived its entire life under the impression that everything is nature. Will fire come down from heaven on the day of the dedication of the altar? Will the Zohorit operate on Yom Kippur? Yes, and yes, and this will not be a retreat into the realm of childish faith. On the contrary, this will be the answer to those who have not matured enough. The Maimonides, with the world as it is accustomed to, also speaks of the building of the Temple and, I would add, of all the miracles that occurred in it at every step. It is not obligatory to accept my ‘prophecy’, but it does not contradict the vision of the prophets and in any case offers an interpretation of reality. —————————————————- Rabbi: It is difficult for me to conduct the discussion here because it is long and requires definitions and detailed logical analysis. I think you are very wrong already on the conceptual level (if he manages everything through the laws, that is what is called not interfering. Everything else is semantics). I detail all of this in my book and answer all of these claims, and it is difficult to extend it here. I’m not really impressed by quotes from the Khozari, and certainly not from Rabbi Aviner, or even from the Sages (in the book I explain why they have authority only in Halacha and nothing else, and even there not because they are always right but because we have accepted their authority over us). Even if they believe so (and in my opinion the Sages did not believe so, certainly not all of them) I disagree with them on this matter. And if I am Greek, then I am Greek. Titles and tags are not arguments. But all the quotes here certainly describe my position accurately. ——————————————————– Asks: If he manages everything through laws that he enacted and he also intervenes in them from time to time, by definition this is called not involved? What the hell! But let’s say it’s a matter of definition, what definition would you give to his attitude towards Eliba, according to your opinion? ‘He left the country’? How so? —————————————————- Rabbi: My argument is that, contrary to popular belief, God does not heal the sick or permit those who are forbidden (except perhaps in very rare cases. And that is also highly doubtful in my opinion). Therefore, there is no point in praying to Him for such and such needs except in extreme cases when there is no other way out, nor in thanking Him for healing or any other “miracle” (see the last column on my website about the law of small numbers). My argument is that the laws of nature are what determine what will happen, and even if God established them (which is of course completely acceptable to me) and perhaps even operates them to this day (which I doubt says anything in my opinion), there are still no exceptions to them. Therefore, the philosophical question of whether He operates them all the time or whether they operate on their own is not really important. It is semantics. The essential argument is that there is no exception to them (except in rare cases, the whole island and perhaps), and in this sense today we are on autopilot and not under the control of God. “The Lord forsook the land” sounds like a pretty good description of this picture to me. But I see no point in arguing about terminology and expressions. ——————————————— Asks: Thanks for the clarification. As a loving friend, I tell you that terminology is important. See how we clarified the matter itself and it is not in dispute. I know you, others perhaps less so. This terrible sentence has a negative connotation and a terrible meaning regarding the Holocaust. You are drawing fire even without the terminology. I know you don’t care and the main thing is the truth. God forbid I am not trying to educate or preach. —————————————— Rabbi: On the contrary, my words are mainly in connection with the Holocaust. Indeed, God left the land. He has nothing to do with the Holocaust. The Nazis did it by their own decision.

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מושה replied 9 years ago

Good evening Rabbi
On the one hand you say that God has abandoned the land, on the other hand it has nothing to do with the Holocaust, on the third you say there is no providence, but what about justice? If the Creator asks our judges to judge with justice as we saw in the parshath of Mishpatim, how will He leave His world and hide His face from the wicked - if I am not mistaken, for the third time I am using the verse today, if God will not preserve a city whose builders have labored in vain - does God ignore our destruction because of the will of the Germans? He will never give a rod to the righteous! If He demands justice from us, justice will be pursued, and He will make him act justly - He who demands justice will fulfill it.

No father would leave his firstborn son to the care of the S.A..He who does not create.

If you still think that God He left the land and did not watch over it, so what do you think is the reason, when did it start, and how can we restore the watch over it immediately?
What can the Rabbi say about this about the righteous being gathered from evil - is there a connection between watch over it and leaving?
From the story of Job we saw that God did not let Satan touch his soul and it is clear that the soul of every person is in the hands of God! What can the Rabbi say in his defense?

מיכי Staff replied 9 years ago

https://mikyab.net/%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%97%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%A9-%D7%90%D7%97%D7%A8-%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%94%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%9D/

מושה replied 9 years ago

Honorable Rabbi Michi – You made me laugh, I read and I remained cold.

I can say that I remained in my own way, I do not think that He left the land, and those who feel this way will not survive! I will illustrate:
Many studies show that when you have something to hold on to, whether it is something material or spiritual * (money or property or utilitarianism or satisfaction or hope or pleasure, etc.) then you manage to survive better. A person who does not have faith has no reason to understand what he is doing here? [As the poet said (What do I need black cubes?) Or any other mitzvah to fulfill..] On the other hand, those who have faith in something so true and true, alive, good and full of kindness and truth, the giver of the Torah, the Creator of the world full of words, rewards good to the good and pays for the excess, doers of pride. He gives them strength, and a reason to live, not for the black dice, but one must do something to gain something (observance of a commandment entitles us to the northern evil).

If people believe in Him, blessed be His name forever, and do not know His place, then He has already told us: What house will you build for Me, O God? And I will look to the poor and the crippled in spirit and anxious for My words? — Do not seek the Lord; – He will find you, provided that you are anxious for His word. What is better than that? – He does not need Waze or GPS. Why should He find you? So that you do not seek Him. He prevents you from the trouble involved in this.

In addition, We have promised: “In all your ways acknowledge Him— and He will make your paths straight. It is worth reading the following chapter:

https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%99_%D7%92/%D7%98%D7%A2%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%9D#.D7.95

(*) People in the Holocaust survived only because they hoped for salvation, the power of hope kept them alive. This is the example.

In conclusion,

We are imprisoned in a covenant that we cannot escape from. Return to me and I will return to you, says the Lord of hosts, for in the days of your fathers you have rejected my statutes and have not kept them, return to me and I will return to you, says the Lord. And you say, "How shall we be saved?" He will do the will of all who call upon Him in truth, and He will hear their cry and save them.

Suggestion: The true poet said, “The Lord will bring me to my enemies, for at my right hand I will not be shaken!”

Then those who fear the Lord spoke to one another, and the Lord listened and heard, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the Lord and for those who think on His name. 17 And they were mine, says the Lord of hosts, for the day when I made a covenant with them, and I will have compassion on them, as a man has compassion on his son who serves him. 18 And you will return and see the difference between the righteous and the wicked, between the servant of God and the one who does not serve him. 19 For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the wicked and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will be hot with them, says the Lord. Armies that will not leave root or branch, and the sun will shine on you who fear the sky, a sun of righteousness and healing in its wings (it is worth reading the entire chapter again https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%9C%D7%90%D7%9B%D7%99_%D7%92/%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%91#.D7.96

Those who are far from Him – This is the time to draw near - serve the ’ with fear and trembling. Do not be like your fathers, a rebellious and rebellious generation - a generation that did not understand My ways

Amir Jose asked:
Why were the reasons for the commandments not revealed? Perhaps so that we might serve the ’ with innocence and with a complete heart - cast your burden on the ’ God and He will sustain you. He will never give a rod to the righteous or/and so that we might seek Ourselves. And for this we will also receive a reward. The one who works out of love is greater than the one who works out of fear, because the one who works out of fear thinks for his own benefit, to be saved from trouble and distress. And he serves Him with a whole heart and a willing soul. And there are those who respond with wisdom to the tastes of the mitzvot, which are the preservation of our bodies. The mitzvot of the dice is preserved - your hands shall be preserved, go to perform a mitzvah, and your feet shall be preserved, go to study Torah – and your mouth shall be preserved, and on this path, every mitzvah has an organ associated with it. Is there a taste more wonderful than this? Just as man is a tree of the field, so the fruits and leaves and the drink have a taste and medicine and virtue for healing and benefiting the health of the body. With his will, of course.
What is the function of the black dice? It is written explicitly: And it shall be for a sign on your hand and for a memorial between your eyes, so that the law of the Lord may be in your mouth. So that the law of the Lord may be in your mouth.

מיכי Staff replied 9 years ago

Moshe, the question of survival is not necessarily related to the question of truth. It is difficult to survive psychologically even without speaking slander or eating cream cakes. That does not mean that it is necessarily good or healthy.
(Note: It is better to write shorter and more focused. It is difficult to relate to such a length, what is more, some of it we will recognize is not really necessary for the argument or the question)

אריאל replied 8 years ago

Rabbi,
A lot of water has passed here. One thing I didn't see is why your starting point is that there is no private supervision according to different levels as the Rambam and the Ramban perceive?

מיכי Staff replied 8 years ago

This is explained elsewhere (search the site). There is no great Torah in this, except that we do not see anything of it and except that it contradicts the scientific concept that particles do not move without a physical reason for this.

הלל replied 8 months ago

Shalom Rabbi
I wanted to ask if everything is known and planned in advance why is there a need for providence at all?
(And even if the one who doesn’t know what a person will choose, he knows the options he has and planned in advance that if he chooses this way then it will be this way and if he chooses differently then it will be different)