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Women in the minyan

שו”תCategory: HalachaWomen in the minyan
asked 5 years ago

Hello,
I saw your answers, regarding the issue of women’s access to the Torah. In one of the references, you write that you are in favor of women’s minyans and that 10 women are joining the minyan.

  1. You are referring to the fact that you have already written your opinion on the subject. I did not find a discussion of the subject in your article, so if there is one, I apologize. I would be happy to find a link, if not, I would be happy if you could expand on the words of the sages on the subject.

The only source in the Sage literature on the subject that I have found is the opinion that one slave joins nine men, and not two slaves for eight. (Rabbi Eliezer freed his slave). And usually women and slaves were “hardened” to each other.
2. And if possible, I would like to clarify the question about the blessing before the reading, whether women will bless it, which is a matter of holiness.
3. And another question on the subject, is it possible to say that because a woman does not recognize the obligation to read the Torah (say, she declares this or is seen in a synagogue sitting outside), can we say (as in the laws of Iruv) that someone who does not recognize his obligation to perform a certain religious act will not be able to join as a member of the minyan to perform it (like Iruv) (obviously there are many such men and the question applies to them as well, but unfortunately today everyone who has a Y chromosome is ascended, even secular atheists – so proof from the custom is a lie)
Good afternoon


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0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 5 years ago
Can you provide a link to the answers you are referring to? I don’t remember writing an article about that. It may have been here on the site (I also had comments on an article that claimed otherwise, and maybe that’s what I meant). If women join the minyan, they can of course also say something sacred. In the margins of my remarks, I will note that regarding something sacred, this is generally a mystery to me. What is the prohibition against saying it in less than ten? What prohibition are we violating? And why am I forbidden to dedicate to God one or two sons? I just want to tell my friends to bless the blessed God forever and ever. Is it forbidden? I know that it is common to think that it is forbidden, but I really don’t understand it. Regarding your last question, it seems to me that it is simple to understand that someone who does not know anything does not join the minyan. Both for men and women. I personally do take great care, as much as I can, not to invite such people to Torah (with the obligatory status) and not to include them in the minyan.

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בנימין גורלין replied 5 years ago

Shalom Rabbi Mikhi,

“They do not recite the Shema, and they do not pass before the Ark, and they do not raise their hands, and they do not read from the Torah, and they do not dismiss the Prophet, and they do not make a stand and a seat, and they do not say the blessing of the mourners and the condolences of the mourners, and the blessing of the grooms, and they do not invite less than ten people, and on lands – nine and a priest, and a person like them” (Megillah 28:)

Where does it come from that it is forbidden to say, I am surprised that the Rabbi claims that he does not understand this, to the best of my understanding there is indeed no prohibition to say it. The problem is the application of “holiness”…; ostensibly this is explained in the Geonim and Rishonim, can the Rabbi explain his words?

Benjamin “The Censored” Goralin

מיכי replied 5 years ago

When you pray alone, do you say "Kedushah" and "Blessing"?
Who is "the censor" Abraham?

בןעניים replied 5 years ago

In your opinion, is it permissible for Israel to ascend to the priests' stand?

בנימין גורלין replied 5 years ago

Rabbi Michi, I am not saying that...?

מיכי Staff replied 5 years ago

Benaniyim,
Cell according to my opinion (not systematically. I am in a hurry). Clearly. And is it forbidden for Israel to say the verses of this blessing? Of course, without a blessing before it.

הפוסק האחרון replied 5 years ago

Women should be prohibited from praying because of danger.

Regarding a matter of holiness:
However, women invite men to pray or servants to pray, and in private, who do not invite them in their name

And the laws of prayer: And as for hunting, it is the prayer of the congregation. There will be one who prays in a loud voice and all will hear. And no one does so with children under ten years of age and with freedmen … And therefore there are no holy words, and no reading of the Torah, and no blessing before and after it, and no excommunication from the prophets, except in the tenth.

אלישע replied 5 years ago

To Rabbi Michael,

It seems to me that the simple thing is that the prohibition is due to what can be called a “lack of respect”, in the same way that we found a prohibition against praying in inappropriate clothing, with the head uncovered, etc.
And as an added explanation, although there are certain blessings/prayers/invocations that can also be said in the singular, this is because they are fundamentally in the form of invocations/etc. that can be said in the singular.
On the other hand, there are rituals that are by nature public, such as the Kaddish and the Kedushah, and as such they have additional requirements on top of the basic requirements for addressing God. Just as there are rules of etiquette for a delegation that comes before the king – is it respectful of the king when a delegation of two people comes before him, when the usual worldly etiquette is to arrive with at least ten?
Is it respectful that, in order to cover this deficiency, they bring small children?

And so on and so forth.

מיכי Staff replied 5 years ago

This is an interesting suggestion. I usually understood it to be like a blessing or a name being taken out of context. But the questions of origin and scope still apply. It is clear that there is no prohibition against saying to my friends, "Let's bless the blessed G-d," or saying the laws of holiness. Incidentally, the same should be said about a blessing being taken out of context. It is clear that the main point of the law is that there is no impediment to saying a version of a blessing to G-d just like that. In any case, if we say that this is a rabbinical prohibition, then they have established a prohibition on it (we still wonder what its scope is. Am I forbidden to say the version of the blessing just to bless G-d? I'm not sure). But for the methods that it is a Torah prohibition because you shall not bear false witness, it is not clear to me what the prohibition is in this.

אלישע replied 5 years ago

I think there is both here, that is what I meant when I defined these things as public worship.
The great Maimonides: “And how is public prayer? There will be one who prays out loud and all hear, and no one does so with less than ten elders and free men, and one of them is a public emissary, and even if there were some who had already prayed and fulfilled their duty, they will be made up for ten, and that is that there will be a majority of the ten who did not pray, and they do not say kedushah, nor do they read from the Torah, and do not bless before and after it, and do not dismiss the prophets except with ten.”
Since this is a public prayer, in any case there is certainly an aspect of blessing for the sake of it, and all the other things that also belong in individual prayer. However, in addition to this, as a second level, there is the issue of publicness here, and all these things must have a certain form. From the words of the Almighty, it seems that there is no inspiration of the Shekhinah with less than that, the question is why? And in my opinion (personally of course) one can hear that anything less than that is not honorable to the King of the World.
I think you can say to your friend, “Let's bless the Lord”, just as a person says to his friend, “Look at the beautyprovidenceetc.’ Say thank you!” And certainly no one will think that there is a problem with that. But after things have been established as the way of worship in public, in any case there is no permission to do the exact same thing, on another platform that does not meet the established rules.
This is similar to the prohibition of sacrificing on the platforms, or the need to innovate something in the prayer of alms.
Of course, I am only writing my opinion.

Regarding a blessing for nothing – I do not know. But I have a feeling that once upon a time, everyone was allowed to bless according to their own language, etc., until generations became corrupted and fixed rules and formulas were established. And these things are well known. So I ask, who believes that there is a Torah prohibition in this?

מיכי Staff replied 5 years ago

This is a well-known disagreement among the Rishonim. See, for example, the end of the Rambam's commentary (33:1) and, in contrast, the Rambam's commentary on Berakhot 1:15 and Shulchan Arv, 4.

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