Yaron London
I remember that the rabbi spoke or wrote with sympathy about the man. I’m curious, does the post he published about his special feelings about the disaster in Meron make you angry? Or can the rabbi also respect and accept feelings of the above type?
Absolutely not. On the contrary, I really identified with what he wrote. A society whose ideology is alienation from the environment and lack of public contribution (yes, yes, there are GMACHIM and ZAKA), disdain for everything outside of them, and exploitation of use and throw away, cannot be surprised that the attitude towards it is alienated. I am surprised at all the secularists who do not feel the same way. I really don’t understand.
Beyond that, what’s there to be angry about feelings? That’s what he feels and that’s what he described. For him, Haredim are like Rwandans, because he has nothing to do with them. Completely understandable and expected.
Hello Rabbi Michi, I would like to comment on your words:
A. There is no Haredi ideology that states that one should be alienated from the environment. You may be presenting extremist currents that act in an alienation toward others out of fear and so on (the Mea Shearim members and the extremists are on every website). But most of the Haredi mainstream is at best indifferent to others and does not feel alienated toward them. But even that is not so accurate because in every situation of need and help, the Haredi public assists, helps and supports. Although you mentioned the charity organizations with sarcasm, unfortunately presenting it with sarcasm cannot change the fact that there is indeed such a trend in the Haredi public in a much broader way than the secular public. And not just organizations but in general.
B. Let us not forget that a donation is made according to the awareness of the person donating and from his worldview and attitude. It is impossible to expect a person to donate when he feels that he is not contributing but is doing the opposite. There is an entire community that lives by an ideology that they wholeheartedly believe in and a strong belief that their contribution to the environment is made in a unique way of acting on the spiritual plane. What do you expect? That they will enlist in the army? They truly believe that the army and Torah study should be shared among the people and not be in a form of universal conscription for everyone. They do believe in Torah study and living Torah and mitzvot as a guarantee of security and peace. So what do you want, to blame them for their belief system that the things you mentioned would at most be stupidity? That's a bit strange…
B. I didn't understand what you meant about use and throw away and where you got such a view of the aforementioned community”.
C. I agree with you that one should not be angry about the feelings that exist in someone else. But this only indicates a terrible deficiency in that person. To look at the horrors that occurred and not feel terrible pain and sorrow out of identification with the victims and the horrors they experienced – Indicates a hollow and empty world of emotion and accordingly indicates a lack of humanity to a great extent.
With gratitude,
Descendant of Saint Yaron Landon Shlit”a,
Rashi: The saint – Dachyon, whose face was publicly whitened for his words, considered himself killed for what he thought and felt, and my blood is for a Jew who was killed because he was a Jew and considered himself a saint.
And read more “No man is master of the spirit” on this matter at length and with pleasure.
The truth is that for the first time I am unable to digest your answer.. 45 children and adults breathed their last in a brutal death.. Even for your haters you feel solidarity in such a terrible event. I cried like a baby.
You have no anger for his feelings – I understand your rationale. But to identify with him?! A great wonder
As a wife,
I wasn't born yesterday either and I know the matter well.
So like this. There is such an ideology and more, and not only among the extremists. It is true that on a personal level not everyone lives it and there are differences in dosages. The ethos is completely like this (see Rabbi Schach's eulogy to the Rebbe of Satmar). Incidentally, indifference is an expression of alienation.
The apologetic discourse as if the avoidance of conscription is because of the value of learning was already abhorrent to me. It is simply a blatant lie. The avoidance is mainly because of the fear of being spoiled and because of the fear of creating identification with the surrounding (the Medina). Just imagine how those who don't study behave and how those who don't study and choose to enlist are treated. The excuses, both outward and inward, are tied to the value of learning. This is a distinct Haredi characteristic, the treatment of apologetic excuses as if they were the truth.
And finally, as I wrote, there is no major drawback here and certainly not a terrible one. It's a natural thing for every person, just like you feel about the Rwandans. The whole question is who is called a Rwandan for you and who is close to you for you.
Ron,
I'm very glad you cried like a baby. Congratulations. London may have cried like a baby when he heard about the genocide in Rwanda or on Memorial Day for the fallen. But is that relevant to the discussion? I cried like a baby when I heard about the death of my parent, and I assume you didn't. And neither did Yaron London. What exactly does that prove?
If you mean indigestion in the stomach, then you clearly haven't digested my words. The best advice is to start thinking/digesting with your head and not your stomach. It's worth remembering that crying, as a baby or not, is not a cognitive tool, at least after the age of two.
I agree with most of what Yaron London wrote. Of course, as someone who comes from a very similar background, it is easy for me to understand and identify with him. I like his attempt to be honest a thousand times better than the self-righteousness and lip service of his counterparts.
I just don't think he is really completely honest. I think his description of how he tries so hard to be caring (and fails at it, according to his testimony) indicates some kind of ambivalence towards the Haredi population that he attacks.
The feeling is that out of the (justified!) desire to pull the ground out from under the righteous who model “morality” he falls to the other side and models “sobriety”. That's what happens when despair becomes more comfortable.
I suppose that while you were crying over the death of your parent, and I was next to you and was singing to you in a song and a hymn accompanied by a musical instrument how insignificant and meaningless your parent is.. and his body seemed to me like a dead dog. (Don't get me wrong – that's how I feel) you would understand why my crying is related to the discussion, in other words, an emphasis on the collective Haredi pain.. (I don't know any of the dead). But for some reason you chose to mock my crying.
And it's not indigestion in the stomach.. that a person as high in mind and intelligence as you identifies with the sickening things that London said, it leads to indigestion in the mind. Did the nauseating emotion also affect the mind? Or is it the effect of media incitement like what happened to Leahy Griner (if I may estimate – you know her name and she works). After all, you taught us that although the mind alone makes decisions... but it is clear that what motivates a person to act is emotion.
What are you talking about? The Haredi tribe is a sociological group and closeness to it occurs in circles, a Gur Hasid probably ranks his circles as family, friends, Gur Hasids, Alexander Hasids, Lithuanians, Mizrahi, secular. When Gentiles die, he is likely to be completely indifferent. Each and his own circles. Do you feel closeness to Gur Hasids? That's ridiculous. Anyone who doesn't feel doesn't feel. The idea that we are “one people” and therefore it is reasonable to feel special feelings when Jews (Haredi Mizrahi or secular) die more than when ordinary strangers die is an idea that has no value. It's a matter of a sense of closeness and nothing more.
Yaron, Yaron London writes the post and describes the swarm of Toaim with almost erotic pleasure.. His writing shows hatred bordering on anti-Semitism. And not just a lack of belonging
I didn't read Yaron London's post and he really doesn't interest me as a person. I'm dealing with the question of alienation and belonging. You were moved by the disaster because you feel a strong closeness to the Jewish people and within them an even stronger closeness to the religious and perhaps within them an even stronger closeness to the Haredim. A feeling of closeness is something emotional, not anything of importance.
For example, I do feel a mental closeness to the Haredim people (without any closeness to the opinions and conduct of the Haredim) but when I look at myself, I think it's because part of my family is rooted in Haredim society, and not because they are “Jews” or “citizens of the country”. Despite all their shortcomings, I got used to looking at the Haredim as related to me in some way because I have “family ties to them“. When Jews died in the United States from the Corona virus, for example, I can't say that I was as moved as I was by the current event. Why, like that.
“A righteous man knows his dead animal”
A small provocateur justifies another small provocateur.
Incidentally, to the best of my recollection, Yaron London once said that he had no problem with his organs being donated to a terrorist murderer after his death.
I wonder if Miki here also identifies and understands the name of the “brotherhood of small provocateurs”.
Of course, no argument of “the Haredim are cut off from the people” justifies a statement like London and Miki's.
Two evil people who apparently share a common soul root.
Rabbi Michi, sorry for the blunt question, but
Has your nuclear family heard about your solidarity with the feelings of Yaron London?
If so, – my mercy on them. And that's it.
Elhanan, exciting
Keep updating!
Good evening.
Although I answered rudely and impudently, I explained how my crying was related, and I claimed that he did not feel solidarity at all, but the tone and melody is anti-Semitic. Do you really not understand what arouses disgust and the evil spirit of anti-Semitism in Yaron London's post?
I answered you before and I don't see what needs to be added here. It's not about being rude, but about a lack of understanding that befits a small, emotional child. Maybe the tears are blinding your eyes, so wait until the crying stops and then come back to the issue.
I'll wait and come back to ask again.
But from the end of the crying, I can tell you that in the meantime you sound stupid.
And I'm left with 2 very painful possibilities 1. That you have degenerated into autoanti-Semitism.
2. That instead of continuing to serve as a ‘rab’ you have become a little provocateur on the keyboard who is addicted to the Internet, and to excitement.
See you at the end of the days of mourning (the crying ended after three days).
And this reminds me of what Leibowitz said about the Rebbe of Chabad, who is either a fraud or a swindler. But he thinks both. It seems to me that one can also say both about the “Rebbe” ‘former’..
On the occasion of the 3rd of Omer, 5th of September, 2019
The demonstrated indifference of Yaron London and Baal Atara Din to the suffering of those who are not members of the Chogam and their people – arouses wonder and bewilderment. After all, the ‘people of the greater world’, who advocate universalism and liberalism – are supposedly also supposed to be concerned about the fate of humans who were created in the image of God even if they are not members of their own people,
Are the Rwandans and the Chinese the animals whose suffering the Baal Atara Din cried out about, and rose up against the religious public for not participating in demonstrations against ‘animal cruelty’? Are the Rwandans and the Chinese not included in the ’categorical commandment’, which is a great rule in the teachings of our Rabbi Kant?
In any case, it is worth noting that the late Moti Kirshenbaum, Yaron London's partner on the program "London and Kirshenbaum", was not only interested, but traveled to Rwanda and produced an entire film documenting his trip to Rwanda.
Even Yaron London's son (like Raya Diron 🙂 ?), Yoav Zahavi, the foreign correspondent for ‘Kan’, was particularly interested in covering the coronavirus pandemic and dealing with it in African countries, India and Belarus, places where the situation is not often covered and discussed (see an interview with him on ‘Heads of the Foreign Desk’, on the ‘Seventh Eye’ website)
It seems that there are also people in Yaron London's circle who are interested in Rwandans 🙂
With regards, Yaron Fishel Rwandar
As part of my curiosity, I glanced at the list of victims in Meron, and discovered that they also included religious Zionists, such as Yonatan Hevroni from Givat Shmuel, Yedidia Fogel, a student of the Hesder Yeshiva in Rehovot, and Daniel Morris, a student of the Hesder Yeshiva in Shaalim. Among the dead was Rabbi Moshe Mizrahi, one of the supporters and companions of the ultra-Orthodox Nahal soldiers, and enough of the wisdom, or rather: enough of the stigma 🙂
In the last paragraph, lines 3-4)
… Also R’ Moshe Tzarfati, one of the supporters and companions…
[See the article, ‘The”Father” of the Haredi Nahal soldiers – killed in the disaster in Meron’, on the ‘Channel 7’ website].
Anyone who agrees with the words of one of the biggest fools in the secular world, Yaron London, should go for a neurological diagnosis to see if the coronavirus has penetrated his brain and disrupted his thinking.
Hello Rabbi Miki, I apologize for the length of this here… my questions were quite focused and brief.
A. Regarding the attitude towards seculars – I do not agree with you. There is an ideology that advocates separation from seculars in order not to be influenced by them. But the discourse is not one of hatred towards seculars nor of indifference that expresses what you are talking about. The attitude is in the form of “orphans of sins and not sinners” and the discourse on the Haredi street about seculars is more like poor people who need to be pitied, helped and brought closer to them and babies who were captured. This causes there to be no physical relationship and there will be separation and these contribute to concerns on both sides of the fence, but in practice in Haredi discourse this is the attitude towards seculars, as stated above.
B. Regarding conscription – if it were as you say (and I don’t really agree but it would be) that the reason for avoiding conscription is because of the fear of spiritual decline. You understand that this is not done out of selfish considerations and personal goals, but rather because of a genuine fear of identity and spiritual decline, which is as important to the Haredi person as his or her very life. But this does not stem from hatred, unwillingness to help and assist, etc. You see that where there are possibilities, Haredi society helps out of a much greater volunteer effort than secular society. The many organizations certainly reflect this reality.
C. Regarding the attitude toward the Haredi – you claimed that this is a natural matter, just as I feel toward the Rwandans, and it is only the question of who is a Rwandan as far as I am concerned. That is what I really complain about, that Marna Kadisha, Yaron London, looks at the Haredi as Rwandans. One could say that it is not terrible for a child to look at his or her siblings and parents as Rwandans, but it is clear that such a feeling is unreasonable, because you have a great deal of inhumanity and insensitivity toward those close to you physically, in terms of identity, and more.
I would love to hear your high opinion,
And by the way, I must thank you for all the attitude in general and the response on the site to the questions and the wonderful articles. It is not obvious.
As a wife of Diron Kadisha London.
The discussion here misses the essential point
A person should not apologize for what he feels but rather try to understand why he feels that way and where it stems from and whether it is good or requires correction. I also don't like the ultra-Orthodox very much, but the disaster that happened (like every disaster of every Jew) is a disaster that happened to the people of Israel and the Jewish organism (for that matter, there is no such thing as a universal organism, so there really is nothing to discuss about Rwandans right now). The lack of feelings of the secular may perhaps be understandable (probably the ultra-Orthodox also don't feel that way about the secular, but from their perspective, being Jewish means something, so there is probably less alienation to the tragedy of the secular, while from the perspective of leftist seculars like him, Jewishness is just an empty, meaningless ethnic concept and therefore he would care less) but it really stems from a degenerate (broken) nervous system of the Jewish organism.
Because a disaster is a sign of things to come and an illness that begins with a small pain that, if ignored, becomes a big pain that indicates a more serious illness that has spread from that organ to other organs. If the secularists ignore this, trouble will eventually come to them. Of course, the opposite is also true. I haven't read Yaron London's words, but from what's said here in the thread, it may sound not just alienation but more than that (I hope it's not a joke). He could have kept quiet and that's it.
I have now posted a column dealing with the Meron disaster and in relation to Yaron London's comments. Therefore, I will not respond here anymore (even to those few things here that are worth mentioning).
As for the London wife, he asked other questions and I will respond briefly:
Hello Maran Rabbi Miki, I apologize for the length of the discussion here... My questions were quite focused and brief.
A. This is also the attitude of the secularists towards the Haredim. Poor and primitive, to be pitied.
B. This is precisely egoism, because concern for themselves outweighs the need to share the burden. This is how it is in education and conscription. They build so that others will do the work for them and they will remain in peace.
C. I explained this in the new column I posted. On the contrary, Rwandans have a clear advantage over the Haredim.
With joy.
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