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Found in the Old Wall

שו”תCategory: Talmudic studyFound in the Old Wall
asked 5 years ago

Hello Rabbi!
In the Mishnah of Baba Metzia, “He found an old wall, and these are his.”
The Tosefta explains why it can be said of the Amorites.
Is Amorite a dengue of other owners of the house? So why specifically Amorite or is it specifically Amorite and then there is no obligation to return it because they are Gentiles?


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מיכי Staff answered 5 years ago
An interesting question. Ostensibly, the claim about the Amorites proves that they were actually Gentiles, so why would we need the Amorites? But it is possible that the Amorites came during the time of Israel, because if it belonged to Israel, then it belonged to the ancestors of the possessor (especially when there was still a prohibition on transferring land). In the Poskim it seems that it depends on whether it can be assumed that there was a Hanoch here or not. In the Hanoch way, if the one assuming was Israel, then it is his forever, and not because there is no obligation to return to the Amorites. And here, the Rosh Shem Si’ 9 writes: It is also forbidden because it can be said [to him] that they belonged to the Amorites. And their hay is not bought for him in a thing that will not be found. And it is proven in Lakman (page 27a) that the one who takes from the Teghir, these are his, and he did not say, “Buy it for him, Teghir,” when they were in his possession, since they are not likely to be found. And what remains hidden from the Amorites, they were not for the one to whom the land fell, because the spoil was divided among all Israel, and after he stood there, it is as if it had been lost by all Israel, and it is of his origin. And Tima bought hay for him after Israel despaired. He did not take the hay from his hand. If he had come to him before, he despaired, and did not buy it, because and in the prohibition, he gave it to her, so the hay wept, and did not buy it for him. And because the first, the Lord was not jealous of his son, and his son was not jealous. [These] Amorites are the enemies of Israel, not the enemies of Israel. [Page 261] It is clear that it was there for many years, and even the Wall was there for many years, and it is possible that it was there from the time his ancestors placed it there. Since it is said that the Amorite tombs were there and Israel was not held in possession forever, it is of his origin: At the end of his words, it seems that he is referring specifically to the Amorites. Likewise, in the MMM 56:9 and in the Rishba it is written that it is actually of Gentiles.

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אבינועם replied 5 years ago

Thank you very much Rabbi for the quick answer.
I have a few more questions for your understanding.
1. The definition of an ‘old wall’ is it a wall of a house that is inherited in the family, or is it an old house that has been taxed at various costs?
2. What is the main reason for the loss of the originator? If it is a house that is inherited in the family, then it belongs to the owner of the house {belongs to the family}. Perhaps this is why the Gemara relies on the Amoraim to say that there is also a probability that it does not belong to the family. And if it is not inherited in the family, then the originator can simply claim that it does not necessarily belong to the current owners but to the previous owners. Who have probably already given up.
3. Why did the Gemara not discuss the case of finding it on the outside of the wall in an old wall?

מיכי Staff replied 5 years ago

1. I think it depends on the two explanations above. If it is about the Amorites, then the assumption is that the house was inherited in the family.
2. As above.
3. Apparently the outer part of the old wall was laid by outsiders, and therefore there should be no difference between the old and new wall.

From the Amorites it follows that the house was taken and not bought. In such a situation, the first to claim any object in the area that has not yet been claimed is the first to claim it.
If there was another gentile from whom the house was bought, this argument does not hold.

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