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The purpose of creation

שו”תCategory: faithThe purpose of creation
asked 2 years ago

Hello Rabbi,
I remember that during the series of lessons on faith, you talked about expecting a priori before the revelation at Sinai, that there would be such a revelation to reveal to us the purpose in creation. On the other hand, I remember that you also talked about perfection and completion as possible goals of God in creation, in the sense that He proceeds through us. But in order to achieve the goal of completion, there does not have to be a commandment or a revelation; it is enough that humans proceed by using their free choice and their intellect, and thus God proceeds through them. So my question is, do revelation or a commandment have to be present in order for God to achieve His purpose in creation, or not, because there can be other things like completion that do not require revelation?


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מיכי Staff answered 2 years ago
He should have told us this too: that we are obligated to pay our dues. Without revelation, I would not know what my role is. This is of course only one side of the coin. The other side is the tradition that comes to us about revelation, which contains commandments that we would not have thought of.

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אורן replied 2 years ago

But it seems that the whole issue of perfection and self-improvement as the goal of creation was born from an assumption, and not from some revelation that says this is our role.

מיכי Staff replied 2 years ago

I don't think so. In principle, it is possible that God does not need or does not want to be trained. After there is a revelation and God assigns us tasks, I ask myself why He needs us. To do it Himself. And the only possible answer to that is the problem of completeness and training.

איתן replied 2 years ago

Regarding the first side of the coin
From the patriarchs and the biblical testimonies about norms before the status of Mount Sinai, it seems that even without revelation, one can know what the role is in the world, right?

אורן replied 2 years ago

Okay, but even without the issue of perfection and completion, there are a number of other possible reasons that come from an assumption that do not require revelation:

In the writings of the Arizal, two general reasons were stated for the creation of the world – “that the fullness of His powers might be revealed,” and “that His greatness might be known.” Or according to what is said in Chabad: God desired to have a dwelling in the underworld. Aren’t these sufficient without revelation?

מיכי Staff replied 2 years ago

Eitan,
The Bible clearly and distinctly states the opposite. Every time someone searches for meaning, it begins with a connection with God and His commandments. Adam the First, Abraham, Moses, the people of Israel. When Abraham searches for meaning, it begins with the Creator and His commandments (which preceded the giving of the Torah). These are all revelations.

Oren,
These reasons may be possible (I have no idea where he gets them from), but even if they were true, I would need a revelation to know them. And I would certainly need details on how His powers are revealed or how a dwelling is created for Him in His underwear. What is incumbent upon me.

אורן replied 2 years ago

Take for example what is written in the Rambam:
And what is the path to His love and fear?
When a person observes His great and wonderful works and creations and sees in them His wisdom that has no value and no end, he immediately loves, praises, glorifies, and desires a great desire to know the great name, as David said: My soul thirsts for God, for the living God

That is, it is possible that the Holy One’s purpose in creation is that His creatures will reach His love and fear through contemplation (of creation itself); and all this does not necessarily require revelation, does it?

מיכי Staff replied 2 years ago

But that itself needs to be told to me. Otherwise I may love him (or maybe not) but I will not act to love him. Loving God is also a commandment, and not just a natural state or experience.

אורן replied 2 years ago

But there are commandments that can be understood through understanding without revelation. Like what Rabbi Shimon Shkop says about the Torah of Jurisprudence, and his question about why it is necessary to keep what is written in the Torah. In other words, just as there is an understanding that one must keep the commandments of God, there is also an understanding that one must know God by observing His creation.

מיכי Staff replied 2 years ago

I will repeat the same argument again: precisely because it is possible to understand it myself, this is certainly not the purpose of creation. This understanding is related to a corrected social structure. The whole idea of the R”ash's jurisprudence is that it is not a religious value but a moral-social value.
I do not know the value of knowing the ’ from observing creation even after there was a revelation. In my opinion, this is an invention of Maimonides. Of course I would not conclude this from an explanation, and I certainly would not conclude that it is my role and this is what corrects the world and fulfills the purposes of God Almighty in creation.

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