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Trust in iron

שו”תCategory: faithTrust in iron
asked 3 years ago

Hello.
I have a question that has been bothering me in studying the Gemara for some time.
I will try to give an example to help you understand my difficulty.
Rarely, a leaf of the book. It is written that from the verse “And he brought him out” we learn: that Abraham told God that he saw in his fortune that he would have one son, and God said to him, “Come out of your self-conceit, there is no fortune for Israel.”
Let’s imagine theoretically that we have proof that no one has luck, not even Gentiles, as Maimonides taught, for example. (It also seems to me that there is no such thing.)
So, in fact, the Gemara was demanding something wrong.
So apparently the Gemara did not receive this from Sinai, and it does not appear that there is any special degree of study here from the standards required by the Torah, but rather simply an interpretation of the Tanna or the Amora.
So my question is not specifically in this case, but in all places where Sabra is involved, and even more so, in places that are just Sabra,
How can I trust them that they have sought and understood the word of God correctly?
This varat, for example, is not even implied in the verse, and even if here it is just a “reference”, then in other places it is also found a lot in halakhic instructions. (I don’t have an example right now)
So how much can we appreciate that they understood the Torah correctly if sometimes their logic seems strange and seems like just plain reason???
Thank you very much.
 
 
 
 


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0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 3 years ago
You are bursting into an open door. First, in areas other than halacha, the sages have no authority. If you think otherwise, then disagree with them. And even in halacha, their authority does not mean that they are necessarily right, but that they have the authority. I have often defined formal authority as opposed to substantive authority. Formal authority is like that of the Knesset. One should obey not because they are always right, but because they have the authority. On the other hand, a doctor is not obligated to obey, but it makes sense to obey because he understands it better than I do. Even things that are at the core of our tradition, such as divine providence and intervention in the world, I have written more than once that I think the sages were wrong about it. Not to mention scientific matters. Their beliefs were the beliefs of people like you and me. They can be wrong like you and me.

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אורן replied 3 years ago

Regarding the question of luck, I think the point is whether a person can control his own destiny, or is he only influenced by the various circumstances in his life. The Sages probably believed that Israel was in a higher state of awareness that they could be a choosing person who controls his own destiny even if his nature and environment direct him against the goal he aspires to. But Gentiles, in their opinion, at least during the time of the Sages, did not reach the level of a choosing person.

Beyond that, even if you find a questionable study in the field of legend, it is not certain that you can draw a conclusion from it about the correctness of the study in the field of halakhah. Usually, the Sages' form of study in the field of halakhah is much more systematic and orderly when it comes to halakhah.

אלחנן ריין replied 3 years ago

I know, I know. I read the things eagerly in books and on the website. And in my humble opinion I think so. I am convinced.

But then the question is in the personal feeling how much we are supposed to value that we are doing what God wrote and intended in the Torah???

How much did they mistake in understanding the Torah???
After all, sometimes there are sermons so strange in explanation that I would not even consider them if they were said by someone of our time?

אלחנן ריין replied 3 years ago

And if possible, a reference to your article on the subject of our obligation to the authority of the sages and the acceptance of the Talmud, that we do not dispute the Gemara because that is how we received it as a community (so what?)

And if not, perhaps I would ask if you could write.
I have tried to correspond several times about this and did not understand things clearly.

Thank you for everything.

מיכי Staff replied 3 years ago

I think part of the problem is our lack of familiarity and skill with the ways of preaching. Another part of the oddities is the result of traditions that have not reached us. In any case, there is no need to panic. The validity of laws does not depend on their authenticity (i.e., this is what was handed down at Sinai). Of course, if you have some clear information about the will of God, you can use it. Usually this is not the case, and then the assumption is that it is the best we have.
Regarding the public's acceptance, he elaborated on this in Beit Yishai – Sermons, 15, we took from there. As a rule, any authority of a normative system (such as a judicial system, or guild laws) stems from the fact that the public has accepted it. Therefore, I do not think there is much to elaborate on this. We have also accepted the laws of the Torah.

זאב replied 3 years ago

There seems to be an error here coming from the ruler: “All authority of a normative system, etc.” stems from the fact that the public has taken it upon itself; we have also taken the laws of the Torah upon ourselves.” The rabbi probably meant the sages’ interpretation of the laws of the Torah? Not that we stood there on Mount Sinai together, all the souls of Israel, etc., etc., and with our (personal) best wishes, we decided to “go for it.”

מיכי Staff replied 3 years ago

I am not a ruler (unless you have taken me for yourself), but I do not see any mistake here either. In the accepted view (although in the past I once doubted this here) accepting the Torah is the basis for our commitment to it. The fact that we did not stand there does not change anything. The public has taken it upon itself and now everyone who belongs to it is obligated by it. Just as if the Knesset enacts a law, it binds the public even two hundred years later (unless they change it), even though we were not the ones who elected the Knesset that enacted it.

זאב replied 3 years ago

If today we decide to change the Torah commandments, will they change?

יוסף replied 3 years ago

Where did the rabbi question the accepted view and what does the rabbi claim?

מיכי Staff replied 3 years ago

Zeev, I didn't understand your question. What does it mean to change? And are the commandments in our hands?
I don't remember the source right now. I doubted that this was really a contract that we could have refused to accept. Simply put, it means that it is forced upon us, and thus it is clear that God forces it upon us. The matter of the great awareness is a legend.

זאב replied 3 years ago

Ah. I understood from the context and from the comparison to the Knesset laws that it is also possible to change the Kabbalah today, because the obligation to observe is by virtue of the Kabbalah and not by virtue of the divine command. Right now I understand that this is not your opinion and that you did not intend it. But there was a condition for the application of the decree that they would want to accept the Torah.

זאב replied 3 years ago

The order

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