On Drafting Yeshiva Students and Haredim – A Halakhic Perspective (Column 649)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
Dedicated to the memory of Rafael Kauders, of blessed memory, and to his dear family,
especially little Hillel, whose name accompanied me—through his grandmother Chayuta Deutsch—while writing the trilogy,
and whose eulogy at the funeral broke my heart.
Rafael, of blessed memory, was a reservist and a precious man who fell on Jerusalem Day
and was laid to rest yesterday in Kfar Etzion.
This weekend a rabbinic advertisement calling to draft all Haredim is being published:
The initiative comes from a former student of mine (Chagai Friedler of the Zionist Alliance initiative) at whose request I wrote a detailed halakhic ruling demonstrating that, according to halakha, there is no exemption from the army—neither for those studying nor for anyone else—even if he fears “spiritual deterioration.” The rabbis received the ruling and signed the call.
It is astonishing how, for roughly eighty years, thousands of Haredi Torah scholars have been misled by partial quotations taken out of context, while ignoring explicit sources over which there is no dispute. It’s not that they chose one interpretation among several; there is no such interpretation. Truly like children captured among the nations.
What is most infuriating is that the government, together with the Haredim, extends reserve duty days for everyone while exempting the Haredim themselves. Even the Haredim have not, until now, sunk to such moral lows. Shame!
The following ruling is based on Column 609, which dealt with this, but since a halakhic ruling was requested here, I elaborated more on the halakhic aspects. I bring it here in full, and it is also attached as a Word file for the convenience of anyone who wants to download and/or print and distribute.
“Shall your brothers go to war while you sit here?”
A Halakhic Ruling on Drafting Haredim and Yeshiva Students to the IDF
“Know that this matter did not warrant elucidation… but we were prompted to do so because many have erred in it…”
(Maimonides, beginning of Root 1)
Abstract. It will be explained here that there is a complete obligation upon every person of Israel, without exception, to participate in a war to save Israel from an enemy at hand. Thereafter, four principal categories of exemption-claims raised against this obligation are discussed, and we will show that they are baseless in themselves and, in any case, insufficient to remove the aforementioned obligation. |
These days the public discourse turns to the question of drafting the Haredi public into the IDF, together with the question of drafting yeshiva students (these are, of course, two different questions). Because it is a sensitive political matter that touches all of us, the public discussion proceeds turbulently and often without focus. Some attack and others defend, this way and that, while the issue itself is left in the corner. People form positions on this grave matter by slogans and gut feelings, without grounding and without arguments that address the matter itself. For some reason, few decisors have dealt comprehensively with this issue and with a systematic examination of the arguments raised within it.
In this booklet we will conduct the discussion on the halakhic plane and in a focused manner, as is the way of Torah. We expect that readers will also treat the arguments substantively and examine them on their merits, as ought to be done with every halakhic and worldview question. Our belief is firm that every reader can and should examine the matters, agree or disagree, and arrive at his own conclusion. However, that conclusion should not depend on whether one defines oneself as “Haredi,” “Religious-Zionist,” or otherwise, but rather on a straight analysis of the arguments, sources, and sugyot in and of themselves.
The obligation to participate in defense and rescue
The starting point of the discussion is the moral and civic obligation of every person or group to bear the burden together with the other components of society, including the military burden. This is true for any society, Jewish or otherwise, for it is a basic moral principle. When Moses rebukes the tribes of Gad and Reuben for wishing to remain east of the Jordan, he does not mention the commandments of conquering and settling the land or any other halakhic duty; rather, he focuses on the moral obligation to shoulder the military effort of all Israel and not to shirk it and stay behind. He addresses them on the moral plane and says (Numbers 32:6): “Shall your brothers go to war while you sit here?!”
This obligation returns in the words of Deborah the Prophetess, who curses the people of Meroz for failing to join Israel in its war against Sisera (Judges 5:23):
“Curse Meroz, said the angel of the Lord; curse, curse its inhabitants, because they did not come to the aid of the Lord, to the aid of the Lord among the warriors.”
Rashi there (from the Mekhilta, Beshalach, Shirata §6) writes:
“To the aid of the Lord” — as it were: whoever helps Israel is as one who helps the Shekhinah.
This is explicit in Scripture, and of course it is also established in halakha. The obligation to save another person in danger is an absolute halakhic duty, derived from “Do not stand by your fellow’s blood.” Thus writes Maimonides (Laws of Murder 1:14):
“Anyone who can save and did not save transgresses Leviticus 19:16, ‘Do not stand by your fellow’s blood.’ So too one who sees his fellow drowning in the sea, or bandits coming upon him, or a wild beast coming upon him, and he can save him himself or can hire others to save him and did not save; or he heard that gentiles or informers are plotting evil against him or laying a trap for him, and he did not make it known to him; or he knows of a gentile or a tyrant who is bearing a grievance against his fellow and he can placate him on his fellow’s behalf and remove what is in his heart, and he did not placate — and all such things — anyone who does them transgresses ‘Do not stand by your fellow’s blood.’”
And of course, in the law of the pursuer (rodef), one is obligated to save the pursued from the hand of his pursuer, and he thereby violates also a negative commandment and a positive commandment if he fails to act (ibid. 1:15):
“One who sees a pursuer chasing his fellow to kill him, or after a prohibited sexual act to violate it, and he can save and did not save — he has nullified a positive commandment, namely ‘you shall cut off her hand,’ and transgressed two negative commandments: ‘your eye shall not pity’ and ‘do not stand by your fellow’s blood.’”
And in §16 there Maimonides writes about the weight and severity of the matter:
“Even though lashes are not administered for these negative commandments because they lack an act, they are severe; for whoever destroys one Jewish soul is considered as if he destroyed an entire world, and whoever sustains one Jewish soul is considered as if he sustained an entire world.”
All this concerns another who is being pursued. All the more so if you yourself are within the danger—for in our case the war is to defend the entire people dwelling in Zion (including, of course, the Haredim)—then a fortiori you are obligated to take part in the rescue.
And if the danger is to all Israel, this obligation is even more severe, to the point that although, as a rule, it is ruled that a person may not endanger himself to save another (see Hagahot Maimoniyot, Laws of Murder 1:14, and the commentators there; also Beit Yosef, Choshen Mishpat §426; Sema ad loc.; Responsa Radbaz III §1052, and many more), for the rescue of the public it is certainly permitted and even obligatory to do so. On this basis some later authorities explained the great praise of the “martyrs of Lod,” who gave themselves over to death to save Israel (see Pesachim 50a; Bava Batra 10b; Rashi to Ta’anit 18b; and others). This is the foundation of war to save Israel from an enemy at hand, for which every person of Israel is obligated to risk his life for the sake of the collective (as the Minchat Chinuch, Commandment 425 §1, writes that by the very nature of war there is danger and this does not exempt us, and this is not the category of “be killed rather than transgress”), as will be explained.
The starting point of the discussion
The very resort to sources and the multiplication of pilpulim in them is like one who asks about the laws of saving a life, where the very deliberation and inquiry is reprehensible (Jerusalem Talmud, Yoma 8:5):
“We desecrate the Sabbath for saving a life. One who is quick is praiseworthy; there is no need to seek permission from a court. One who asks is reprehensible, and one who consults is as if he sheds blood.”
Yet since these matters arise in public debate, there is no choice but to address the arguments and the sources themselves. We begin by explaining the very obligation to go to war, and thereafter we will discuss the exemption-claims and examine whether they have substance.
At the outset, it appears that the obligation to mobilize for a defensive war to save Israel from danger is a full obligation without dissent—by Scripture, reason, and halakhic sources—and in principle it applies to every Jew without exception. From here onward, one can adduce various sources and halakhic arguments to discuss this obligation in practice: who is obligated and who is exempt. But it is crucial to understand that the starting point of the discussion is that such an obligation exists; thus, the burden of proof rests upon one who wishes to exempt himself, not upon one who calls for fulfilling it. One who wishes to exempt himself must justify his position and behavior that depart from the aforementioned duty and show that his interpretation and rationale are indeed correct, for his claim is like one who says “I do not know whether I repaid you,” not “I do not know whether you lent me” (see Bava Kama 118a; explanation, e.g., in the Rif there and Taz, Choshen Mishpat end of §75, and others). This is a very important framing point, for it means that even if there is a halakhic or philosophical source or a rationale that can be interpreted in several ways, or if there are conflicting sources on some point, one cannot rely on them—“a doubt does not uproot a certainty.”
Dina de-malchuta and communal enactments
Background to the matter are also claims about the duty to obey governmental directives (Knesset, government, and army). Simply, there is an obligation here of dina de-malchuta,[1] for the king can send the people to war. As Nachmanides writes at the end of his additions to the negative commandments Maimonides counted, that a “king” for this purpose is “one in whose hand the people lie, to send them to the army,” and not necessarily a monarch in the strict sense (and similarly implied in Maimonides, Laws of Tithes 1:2).
True, some decisors cite the Ran (Nedarim 28a) and other commentators who wrote that dina de-malchuta does not apply in the Land of Israel, and this is commonly believed in the Haredi public. But as is known, these words are not agreed upon. I will not lengthen where many already have; I only point to Rabbi Ovadia Yosef (Yechaveh Da’at V §64), who brought many proofs that the decisions of the Knesset and Government of Israel have the force of dina de-malchuta. So wrote also Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv in the Rabbinate Court Rulings (vol. 6, p. 376ff.). Moreover, to rely on that Ran here is quite puzzling, for surely also kings of Israel had authority to send the people to war and levy taxes—otherwise how did the kings of Judah and Israel rule in their days?!
Further, even if there were no dina de-malchuta in this matter, communal enactments certainly apply everywhere. If the city leaders and community representatives decide to go to war when there is danger, they certainly have the authority and one must obey them even without dina de-malchuta. Therefore, even if there is no dina de-malchuta for the Israeli government, surely it is no less than communal enactments. One must remember that all citizens (including the Haredim, of course) receive services from the state, and therefore every citizen is obligated to obey its laws. One cannot demand the rights the state grants its citizens while not fulfilling the duties it imposes in return. Beyond all other problems, this is theft from the public.
At present the legal situation regarding drafting Haredim is indeed unclear, so perhaps one could have argued that there is no dina de-malchuta or communal duty to enlist, since the government itself exempted them. But about a year ago the previous Draft Law expired, and thus for about a year there has been a full legal duty to enlist, which the Haredim were unwilling to fulfill (and they even pressured the government to violate the law). Moreover, Haredi spokespeople announce that they will not obey any draft law the legislature may pass if it is not to their liking. Furthermore, even if a valid law is passed that discriminates among populations, decisors have written that dina de-malchuta does not apply when the regime discriminates among people, and they even called this “dina de-ḥamsanuta” (its source in the Ran, Gittin 10b, and many others), not dina de-malchuta, and of course it has no halakhic force.
Beyond all this, even if there were no monarchy and no halakhically legitimate authority in Israel, in fact there is now a situation of danger to life and we must defend ourselves. Therefore, discussions about authority are beside the point. Could one imagine that when Israel is in danger and has no halakhically authorized leadership, they must refrain from war and surrender themselves to death?!
In the Haredi public there are also claims of distrust in the regime (even though all Haredi parties are currently in the coalition and government) and in the army, and therefore they are unwilling to enlist and fight under their directives. The question is whether a public that refuses to enlist because it does not trust the government is also willing to forgo the protection of the army and security forces. Are they certain in their judgment that despite the experts’ opinions and the government, there is no current danger? Or perhaps they think the war will not help to escape it? Or maybe they have another way to confront the dangers? If not, then there is no room to refuse to join the fighting within the IDF and under government directives. At present this is the only way we have, and therefore even if they are right that the chosen path is not ideal, the alternative is inaction and surrendering ourselves to death. Can anyone seriously accept such a claim?! Never has there been a perfect and ideal government, but this is what we currently have. Just think—were the kings among the nations throughout history guided by better and more trustworthy motives? Was King Ahab a better king? And yet, dina de-malchuta gave all these rulers the authority to send their peoples (including the Jews living there) to war.
The status of our current wars: Are they a milhemet mitzvah?
Many discuss whether our wars are considered a milhemet mitzvah (commanded war) or not. This has consequences for who must go out and fight (for example, Torah students), and who sends the nation to war. It is occasionally claimed that nowadays we lack a Sanhedrin, the Urim and Tumim, and a prophet, and therefore it is questionable whether we can go to war. But for a milhemet mitzvah the king need not consult the Sanhedrin; he sends the people based on his judgment (see Maimonides, Kings 5:2), unlike a discretionary war that requires an approval process.
At the beginning of Kings and Their Wars, chapter 5, Maimonides enumerates three kinds of milhemet mitzvah:
“A king does not first wage war except a commanded war. And what is a commanded war? The war against the Seven Nations, the war against Amalek, and saving Israel from an enemy who comes upon them. Thereafter he wages a discretionary war, which is war with other nations to expand Israel’s borders and increase his greatness and renown.”
If indeed saving Israel from an enemy at hand is a milhemet mitzvah, then the kingdom sends the people to war according to its understanding. Indeed, Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv (leader of the Haredi public until not long ago), in a response to Rabbi Yoel Bin-Nun, wrote about the Yom Kippur War: “And are we not engaged in a milhemet mitzvah?” (Kovetz Teshuvot I §243).
If it is a milhemet mitzvah, then all must go out and fight, as the Mishnah (Sotah 44a–b) teaches about those who return from the ranks, concluding:
“In what case are these words said? In discretionary wars. But in commanded wars, all go out—even a groom from his chamber and a bride from her canopy. Rabbi Yehudah says: In what case are these words said? In commanded wars. But in obligatory wars, all go out—even a groom from his chamber and a bride from her canopy.”
This is brought to halakha in Maimonides (Kings 7:4):
“After all those who return from the ranks have returned, they arrange the formations, appoint army officers at the head of the people, and station behind each formation strong and valiant officers with iron rods in their hands. Anyone who wants to flee from the war, they have permission to cut off his leg, for the beginning of defeat is flight. In what case are these words said—that these people are returned from the ranks? In a discretionary war. But in a commanded war, all go out—even a groom from his chamber and a bride from her canopy.”
And in Sotah 10a in the margin, the Arukh is cited regarding Asa, who took out a groom from his chamber and a bride from her canopy: “All the more so Torah scholars.” True, the passage there criticizes Asa for imposing corvée, but it seems clear that, if it is permitted to take out a groom and a bride, then surely Torah scholars as well. And so writes plainly the Keren Orah on that Mishnah, after citing the Arukh:
“It is implied here that in a commanded war all go out, and even Torah scholars must suspend their learning.”
So it appears also in the Jerusalem Talmud, Yoma 8:10 (“There is no ‘Rabbi’ and ‘great one’”), and so wrote several commentators on the Prophets cited in Shabbat Ha’aretz 13:12 and note 5 to 13 there in the Torah VeHa’aretz edition (Malbim; Metzudat David; Ralbag; and Radak to Judges 5:14–15).
It is fitting to add here the words of two leaders of the Haredi community in Israel—the Ḥazon Ish and Rabbi Yitzchak Zev (the Brisker Rav)—in their glosses on the Talmud (not polemical writing).
The Ḥazon Ish, Orach Chayim §114 subsec. 3, wrote:
“It seems that what the Mishnah states—that in a commanded war even a groom goes from his chamber—does not speak of a time when their help is needed for victory in war, for it is obvious that for danger to life and saving the people, all are obligated; rather, even when there is need only for a certain number (and most of their wars were such that there was room among the fighting forces only for a certain number), it is permitted to take from them even a groom from his chamber, for those who return have no right in a commanded war. So too, in a discretionary war they are exempt only when Israel’s victory does not depend on them, for the number of soldiers required is sufficient without them; but if there is need of them for victory, they are obligated to come to their brothers’ aid, and the matter becomes like a commanded war. But this is only when they have already entered the war; at the outset, one does not enter a discretionary war if it is impossible to fight without those who would otherwise return. And after they have entered a discretionary war with a given force, if they see they need to add soldiers, they do not take those whom we were commanded to send back if the required number can be met without them. And even though now enemies have come upon us—and had they come upon us initially, it would have been considered a commanded war—since we entered initially into a discretionary war, those who return have their right so long as we can fight through others. But if their participation is required for victory, even a groom from his chamber goes out, even though they had entered initially a discretionary war.”
According to him, in any war once we are already in it—even if it is, in definition, a discretionary war—if victory requires taking those who were otherwise exempted and everyone else (including a groom and a bride), we take whoever is needed. The difference in a commanded war is that everyone is taken even if they are not required for victory.
True, the Ḥazon Ish speaks about those who return from the ranks and about a groom and a bride, but he does not explicitly address Torah scholars. One could say that we never found any exemption for Torah scholars, and thus he did not need to address them. Moreover, he writes that where there is danger to life we do whatever is necessary, without distinction between persons, which is obvious by reason. Below we will return to the discussion about the exemption of Torah scholars, but first we will discuss the participation of the tribe of Levi in war.
Maimonides writes at the end of Laws of Shemitah and Yovel (13:12):
“Why did Levi not merit a portion of the Land of Israel and its spoils with his brothers? Because he was set apart to serve the Lord, to minister to Him, and to teach His upright ways and righteous judgments to the many, as it says: ‘They shall teach Your judgments to Jacob and Your Torah to Israel.’ Therefore, they were set apart from the ways of the world: they do not wage war like the rest of Israel, nor do they inherit or acquire for themselves through the strength of their bodies. Rather, they are the Lord’s legion, as it says: ‘Bless, O Lord, his army (ḥeilo).’ And He, blessed be He, provides for them, as it says: ‘I am your portion and your inheritance.’”
We have found that, according to him, the tribe of Levi “does not wage war like the rest of Israel.” But it has already been noted that he did not write that they never wage war, rather that they do not wage war like the rest of Israel. That is, when they are needed, they certainly participate in war (but the order of precedence is that they are the last to go).
Indeed, in the Ḥiddushei HaGriz to Sotah 44b (from the notes of his son, Rabbi Dov), he proves this from the gemara there:
“‘These do not return…’: one who remarries his divorcee, a widow to a high priest, a divorcee or chalutzah to a common priest, etc. Maimonides (Kings 7:8) rules like the Mishnah that one who betroths a woman prohibited to him, such as a widow to a High Priest and a divorcee or chalutzah to a common priest, etc., does not return. It is evident that priests go out to war. And here we speak of a discretionary war, for in a commanded war all go out, as the Mishnah later (44b) says: all go out—even a groom from his chamber and a bride from her canopy. Therefore, it is evident that priests go out even in a discretionary war.”
Maimonides himself rules that priests go out even to a discretionary war, and of course to a commanded war. All the more so for the rest of the tribe of Levi. This can be reinforced from the Hasmonean wars, which were led by a family of High Priests who went to war and led it. Another proof comes from Kiddushin 21b:
“It was asked: A priest—what is his status regarding a beautiful captive? Is this a novelty that applies equally to a priest and an Israelite? Or perhaps priests are different, since more commandments were increased upon them? Rav said: permitted; Shmuel said: prohibited.”
Here too, the simple assumption is that priests participate in war; otherwise the question of a beautiful captive would not arise for them.
How does this conclusion fit with Maimonides’ words above, that the tribe of Levi does not go to war? The Brisker Rav explains:
“It seems that when Maimonides wrote that the tribe of Levi does not wage war like the rest of Israel, his intention was not to remove them entirely from going to war. It appears that when they are needed during a time of war, they too would go out. His main intent is that they are not sent out initially to enter war like all Israel, since they are the Lord’s legion and were set apart to serve the Lord and to minister to Him and to teach His ways and judgments. But certainly, if priests are needed for waging war, they too would go out. If so, nothing is difficult about what Maimonides wrote—that a High Priest who betroths a widow and a common priest who betroths a divorcee do not return from the ranks—because indeed they are not removed entirely from going to war.”
Thus, his words accord with the Ḥazon Ish above: whenever they are needed for victory, certainly the tribe of Levi—including the priests—go out to fight. And what about Torah scholars? We will now explain.
Are Torah scholars exempt from war according to Maimonides?
First, it seems that someone who neglects the commandment of war for the sake of Torah study is no different from someone who neglects other commandments in order to study. Regarding that, Maimonides writes (Laws of Torah Study 3:3–4; source: Bavli Kiddushin 40b):
“3. There is no commandment among all the commandments that is equal to Torah study except Torah study itself, for study leads to action; therefore study precedes action in every place.
4. If one had before him the performance of a commandment and Torah study—if the commandment can be performed by others, he should not interrupt his study; but if not, he should perform the commandment and return to his study.”
At first glance, this is puzzling: since Torah study is greater than all commandments, why should it be deferred to them? The early authorities already addressed this and explained (see, e.g., the Meiri ad loc.; Kehalot Yaakov, Shabbat §11; and others) that the purpose of learning is to fulfill; thus it is not reasonable that because of learning one would refrain from fulfilling. There is more to elaborate, but this is not the place. In any case, we learn that Torah study exempts from other commandments only when others can perform them. That is not our situation. And about one who refrains from a commandment because he is learning, it is said (JT Shabbat 1:2):
“One who learns not in order to do—it would have been preferable had he not been created. And Rabbi Yohanan said: One who learns not in order to do—it would have been preferable had his placenta been turned over on his face and he had not come into the world.”
Indeed, we find that Joshua bin Nun and his disciples, and likewise King David and his men, went out to war, and they did not think that their learning exempts them from war. And about Joshua, the Sages expounded (Megillah 3a) in the rebuke of the angel of the Lord to Joshua in the Jericho war: “Yesterday you neglected the afternoon tamid; and now, you have neglected Torah study.” Rashi explains: “And now, which is night, you should occupy yourselves with Torah, since you do not fight at night.” From this, Rabbi Zevin deduced in his well-known letter published during the War of Independence: crystal-clear words—“since you do not fight at night”! Thus, when they are fighting, it is obvious that Torah study is suspended when needed. Also in the war against Midian it is said: “And Moses sent them, a thousand from each tribe, to the army—them and Pinḥas” (Num. 31:6). The Sages say: “Them—this refers to the Sanhedrin” (Sotah 43a). And in the Sifra it is brought that the tribe of Levi went to the war against Midian.
True, in Megillah 16b we find: “Rav Yosef said: Torah study is greater than saving lives.” But decisors have already written that this does not pertain to the obligation to suspend Torah study to save lives (see Drisha, Yoreh De’ah §251; Taz ad loc. §6), for we suspend study for any other commandment—how much more so for saving lives.
In the next halakha there (Shemitah and Yovel 13:13), Maimonides writes:
“13. Not only the tribe of Levi, but any person from among the inhabitants of the world whose spirit moved him and whose mind understood to set himself apart to stand before the Lord, to minister unto Him and to serve Him, to know the Lord, who walked uprightly as God made him, and cast from his neck the yoke of the many calculations that people seek—this person is sanctified as holy of holies. The Lord will be his portion and inheritance forever and ever; He will provide his sustenance in this world sufficiently, as He provided for the priests and Levites. As David, peace be upon him, said: ‘The Lord is my allotted portion and my cup; You support my lot.’”
Many have cited this as the source for the great novelty that all Torah students and scholars have the status of the tribe of Levi, and from here they sought to exempt all those studying Torah—yeshiva students and kollel men—from going out to war. But even these words are refuted from within, at least for four reasons:
* First, Maimonides’ practice is to insert aggadic passages at the ends of sections of halakhot, and it is perilous to derive halakhic conclusions from them. On this point see the words of Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein in his book By His Light, who writes regarding this passage in Maimonides (pp. 210–211):
“It is reasonable that we have here a moral exhortation—parallel to the endings of several books in Mishneh Torah—worthy, of course, of its full weight as such (after all, note who signed it); but it is not to be defined as a clear halakhic ruling. The passage presents an awe-inspiring and colorful appreciation of a sublime personality, but it does not dictate how she and others must act. Let us ask ourselves honestly: would a God-fearing ben Torah rely upon such a passage to exempt himself from tzitzit or shofar? … Even if we were to assume that Maimonides’ words unequivocally imply a clear and sweeping exemption, their practical import would still be quite limited. We have not yet clarified who is eligible for it. A Levite is defined by a well-documented lineage; but a ben Torah compared to him is defined by an array of spiritual traits, for which Maimonides set a very high bar. He paints an ideal portrait of a man entirely free of personal ambition and any trace of self-interest… To what segment of the Torah community… does this exalted depiction apply? … Can a person who negotiates terms of employment—perhaps even a dowry or ‘kest’—look in the mirror and declare to himself that he ought not enlist because he has been ‘sanctified as holy of holies’ in Maimonides’ sense?”
* Second, Maimonides wrote this only about those “whose spirit moved them” and who “cast from their neck the yoke of the many calculations that people seek.” Can one say that every kollel man or yeshiva student deserves such lofty crowns?! How many of them do not go to the doctor when a family member is ill? How many do not worry about their livelihood but place their trust solely in God? How many do not call the police when attacked or when a burglar breaks in? How many do not bring someone to a rabbinic court when their rights are violated? This is what I would expect of one who has cast off all worldly calculations and only engages in Torah and is protected by it. Of such a person, perhaps one could say that he is not obligated in the hishtadlut of fighting in the army even when he and all of us are in clear and present danger.
* Third, in this halakha Maimonides wrote nothing about waging war (as he did above regarding the tribe of Levi); rather, he wrote that God will provide his sustenance in this world like the priests and Levites. So explains Ner Mitzvah to Commandment 11, note 55 (cited in Shabbat Ha’aretz ad loc., note 6).
* Fourth, we have seen above that even the tribe of Levi itself is not exempt from war when they are needed to achieve victory. Regarding Torah scholars who are likened to the tribe of Levi we apply the rule: “It suffices to derive as much as is in the source.”
Incidentally, it seems that Maimonides’ intent here is even to gentiles, for he wrote “any person from among the inhabitants of the world” (see, e.g., Laws of Tefillin 10:11; Laws of Sanhedrin 12:3; and Bavli Menachot 86a). So at the end of Shabbat Ha’aretz, Rav Kook concludes, and so in Rabbi Kafih’s commentary on this halakha. If so, it does not appear to refer specifically to Torah learners, nor to an exemption from Israel’s wars.
Beyond all this, if indeed the law is that Torah scholars are exempt from war, Maimonides should have brought this law in Laws of Kings, where he deals with the laws of war, and not in Laws of Shemitah and Yovel as a merely aggadic note. True, one might note that he also did not bring there the (previous, clearly legal) halakha of the tribe of Levi’s not “waging war like the rest of Israel.” We saw that they are not entirely exempt, but there is a law that they are not sent like others. Seemingly, this law should have been in Laws of Kings and was not. This requires investigation.
On the margins of the matter we note Maimonides’ well-known words in Laws of Torah Study (3:10):
“Anyone who resolves to occupy himself with Torah and not do work and thus be supported by charity profanes the Name, disgraces the Torah, extinguishes the light of religion, brings evil upon himself, and forfeits life in the World to Come; for it is forbidden to benefit from the words of Torah in this world. The Sages said: Whoever benefits from the words of Torah forfeits his life in the world. They also commanded: Do not make them a crown with which to magnify yourself, nor a spade with which to dig. They further commanded: Love work and hate rabbinic authority. Any Torah that is not accompanied by work will end in neglect and lead to sin; and in the end, this person will rob others.”
True, the Kesef Mishneh there writes that many tried and it did not succeed for them—meaning that it is appropriate to grant an exemption from livelihood, and perhaps also from the army (see below), to learners so they can grow in Torah. But clearly, even he agrees this is only a bedi’avad (after the fact) arrangement. Regarding exempting learners from service so that they may grow in Torah, as per the Kesef Mishneh, see below §3.
One might wonder how these words of Maimonides themselves accord with his words in Shemitah and Yovel. It seems simple: In Shemitah and Yovel he speaks about people like Ben Azzai or Rabbi Shimon bar Yoḥai, who were exempt from commandments because they clung to Torah (regarding marriage and procreation, see Maimonides, Marriage 15:3; Shulḥan Arukh, Even Ha-Ezer 1:4; and regarding prayer, see Shabbat 11a; and in the JT it seems even for Shema—which all agree is a Torah obligation. See also Tosafot s.v. kan to Mo’ed Katan 9b). This is because they truly cast off all worldly calculations, do not engage in livelihood and hishtadlut, and hand themselves over entirely to God. They are exempt from commandments, and for them even a passing commandment does not override their Torah study. Of such people Nachmanides also wrote his well-known words (Leviticus 26:11): “When the Lord is pleased with a man’s ways, he has no business with physicians.” But, as stated, such people scarcely exist—neither then nor now. This is merely an abstract statement and an ideal model. By contrast, in Laws of Torah Study Maimonides speaks of those who are not like Ben Azzai and Rashbi—who do in fact engage in livelihood and hishtadlut, like all of us—but think to derive their livelihood from Torah study. These, in his view, profane the Name, disgrace the Torah, and extinguish the light of religion, and in the end they will rob the public; and on this the Kesef Mishneh also comments as above.
Thus, it seems very difficult to rely on his words in Shemitah and Yovel for all learners today and in general. Who among them—if any—deserves the lofty descriptions cited above?! And only such are included in Maimonides’ words in Shemitah and Yovel. Moreover, even if they are included, we saw that even the tribe of Levi itself has no absolute exemption from war. See also Responsa Tzitz Eliezer III §9, ch. 1.
The definition of “saving Israel from an enemy at hand”
There is another type of milhemet mitzvah: war to conquer the land (per Nachmanides’ addition to the positive commandments omitted by Maimonides). One might challenge this according to Maimonides, especially in our time. But our concern here is not a war to conquer the land, but a war of rescue from threat—i.e., saving Israel from an enemy at hand. This is the war being waged today in Gaza (“Swords of Iron”), and so were most of our wars in the past.
Regarding a war to save Israel from an enemy at hand, one must ask whether this is indeed a regular milhemet mitzvah. We saw above that at the beginning of Kings 5, Maimonides includes it as a commanded war together with the Seven Nations and Amalek. But in the next chapter he lists only the other two types and does not mention it (6:4):
“If they did not make peace, or made peace but did not accept the Seven Noahide Laws, we make war against them and kill all their adult males, and we plunder all their property and their children. We do not kill a woman or a minor, as it says, ‘and the women and the little ones’—this refers to male minors. When do these words apply? In a discretionary war against other nations. But for the Seven Nations and Amalek, if they do not make peace, we leave no soul alive, as it says, ‘so shall you do to all…’—‘only from the cities of these peoples’—‘you shall not allow a soul to live.’ And thus it says regarding Amalek, ‘You shall blot out the memory of Amalek.’ And from where do we know that he speaks only of those who did not make peace? As it says, ‘there was no city that made peace with the Israelites, except the Hivites from Gibeon—everything they took in war—for it was from the Lord to harden their hearts to go out to war against Israel, in order to destroy them.’ From this we infer that they sent them for peace and they did not accept.”
Why is saving Israel from an enemy at hand not mentioned here as well? It seems that even there, we do not call to them for peace since there is no time and we must strike first. Still, Maimonides does not address it here at all, and this is likely not by chance.
By reason, even according to Maimonides, saving Israel from an enemy at hand is not a discretionary war, of course, but it is also not the same as a commanded war—at least not in the same sense as Amalek and the Seven Nations. First, only these two types are cited in the Talmud as commanded wars; saving Israel from an enemy at hand was added by Maimonides (perhaps on his own). By reason, there is a big difference between these two and the third. The purpose of the wars against the Seven Nations and Amalek (and also the conquest of the land) is the fulfillment of a commandment; the entire motivation to wage them is the command and the Torah’s instruction. Without it, we would not have thought to do so (except perhaps as a discretionary war). Therefore, in those wars, the Torah sets the parameters—whether, how, and when we go out, who goes and who does not, and how the war is conducted. And therefore when the halakhic parameters are not met, we forego the war. But in a war to save Israel from an enemy at hand, the war is undertaken to defend and protect our lives, and of course we would do so even without any commandment. The motivation to fight here is not to fulfill a commandment but to defend our lives. Certainly, there is an aspect of safeguarding life and “you shall live by them,” and also rescuing the pursued, as above; but the war is not conducted for the sake of the commandment and by its force. Unlike the wars of Amalek and the Seven Nations, here—even if there were no commandment—we would fight to defend ourselves. Consider: before the Hasmonean court expounded, “‘Until it is subdued’—even on Shabbat” (Shabbat 19a), did Jews not fight on Shabbat and instead surrender themselves to death?! It is most implausible. When there is danger to life, one fights—even on Shabbat.[2] But when it is not Shabbat, and after the Hasmonean court’s exegesis even on Shabbat, surely we go out to fight to defend ourselves without any other parameters and without any command.
Indeed, in the Jerusalem Talmud (Sotah 8:10) it appears that they interpreted “obligatory war” in Rabbi Yehudah’s words in our Mishnah thus:
“Rabbi Yehudah would call ‘discretionary war’—such as when we go against them. ‘Obligatory war’—such as when they come against us.”
When the nations come upon us, this is an obligatory war; it is more stringent than a commanded war and all go out to it (and according to the Sages, all go out to it as well, of course).
A supporting indication comes from Maimonides’ introduction to the Book of the Commandments, where he writes:
“It is also known that warfare and conquest of the land are only through a king and by the authority of the Great Sanhedrin and the High Priest, as it says, ‘He shall stand before Eleazar the priest’ (Numbers 27:21). And since all these matters are well known to most people, therefore any positive or negative commandment dependent upon sacrifices or services, or the judicial executions, or the Sanhedrin, or a prophet and king, or a commanded war or a discretionary war—I will not need to say in each: ‘This commandment applies only when the Temple stands,’ since this is clear from what we have mentioned. But anything in which there might be doubt or error, I will note it, if God wills.”
From his words we see that a commanded war does not apply in our time. If saving Israel from an enemy at hand is a regular commanded war, by reason it is obvious that it applies also now when Israel is under threat. We saw that Nachmanides wrote that whoever can send the people to war has the status of a king. Seemingly, it follows that saving Israel from an enemy at hand is not a commanded war; thus Maimonides can write that the law of a commanded war does not apply in our time. But the laws of saving life certainly do.[3]
The conclusion is that saving Israel from an enemy at hand is not exactly a regular commanded war, but an act of saving life. Consequently, it is clear that its parameters are determined by the necessities of saving life, not by the laws of war. Hence, everyone needed for victory certainly goes out to fight. There is no need here to resort to sources about “a groom from his chamber and a bride from her canopy,” discussions of who goes to war and who is exempt, the disputes among the Tannaim (obligatory war or commanded war), or who sends Israel to this war. Whatever is needed to be saved is done, and anyone needed to be saved goes out to war. The Ḥazon Ish and the Brisker Rav, cited above, spoke of this: anyone needed for victory goes out—even in a regular commanded war—despite their dealing with Amalek or the Seven Nations, where there is also the possibility of foregoing the war (and not fulfilling the commandment) when certain halakhic conditions are not met. But in our case—war to save Israel from an enemy at hand—we have no option not to fight. Our lives are in danger, and we are compelled to fight by the laws of saving life. Thus the case resembles saving the life of an individual that overrides the entire Torah without any fence or restriction: whatever is needed to be saved. And when it is the saving of the many—how much more so—that everyone needed for victory must go out to fight. Here, there is certainly no room to speak of exemptions for those who return from the ranks, the tribe of Levi, Torah scholars, a groom and bride, etc. At most one could speak about the order of mobilization—who before whom—but in the end, the needs of the war determine who goes out to fight; and if all are needed, all go. As noted above, here there is no room to speak of conditions for going to war (Sanhedrin, kingship, Urim and Tumim, etc.), for even in the absence of these, we have the right and duty simply to stand for our lives, to fight, and to do whatever is necessary to be saved. No one would demand of us to surrender ourselves to death because certain halakhic conditions are not met.
Any claim that if some condition is not met we are forbidden to go out and fight, or forbidden to do what is necessary to win; and any claim of exemption for certain persons because of the Torah’s laws of war—contradicts the core law of saving life, which overrides the entire Torah. And as our teachers taught (JT Yoma 8:5):
“It was taught: One who is quick is praiseworthy; one who asks is reprehensible; one who consults is as if he sheds blood. It was taught: In any matter of danger, do not say: ‘Let gentiles or minors perform it’; rather, even adult Israelites [must do it].”
So too in Bavli Yoma 84b; and this is brought to halakha by Maimonides (Shabbat 2:30). These things are ancient.
After all this, the determinations of whether there is danger to life here and what is required to address it are factual–security assessments, not halakhic ones, and they establish the duty to fight and upon whom it falls. These determinations are entrusted to the political and security leadership. In our approach, the traditional sources and arguments commonly invoked regarding mobilization are not relevant to a war of saving Israel from an enemy at hand. This seems also to underlie the reasonings of the Ḥazon Ish and the Brisker Rav that we saw—and the matter is simple.
Note that even for rescuing property in towns near the border one desecrates Shabbat, as ruled in the Shulḥan Arukh (Orach Ḥayim §329:6; source: Eruvin 45a). One can discuss whether this is due to future risk to life or even for the property itself; this is not the place. Rabbi Bin-Nun added in his letter: “Everyone knows what happened in the towns near the border—Sderot and Ofakim—on Shemini Atzeret of this year.”
Consequences: saving Israel from an enemy at hand—between saving life and commanded war
If so, our conclusion is that saving Israel from an enemy at hand is not a regular commanded war but an act of saving life. We saw one implication: all halakhic parameters are irrelevant here. Now we will see two more implications.
Is it permitted for a Jew living in the Land to flee because of the danger? One can criticize such behavior, but the question here is purely halakhic. If it were a commanded war, it would be forbidden to flee; he must participate with all Israel in the war as part of the commandment that obligates him. But if this is a matter of saving life, there is room to permit him to flee, as in any case of saving life. The law of the pursuer requires a person to save also his fellow, not only himself—but only when the rescuer himself is not endangered; a person need not endanger himself to save his fellow (and according to most decisors it is even forbidden). One could counter that the danger is to the public, and as part of the public he must remain and help fight; but this is not a necessary logic.
Now to the second implication. Must a Jew living abroad come to the Land and fight together with us in a war of saving Israel from an enemy at hand? If it were a commanded war, then clearly all must come. This would be the case, for example, in a war to conquer the land (per Nachmanides above). But if we are dealing with the laws of saving life, they obligate those who are in danger. As we saw in the previous implication, there is no obligation upon a person to endanger himself to save others. Indeed, we do not find decisors who claim that Jews abroad must come and participate in the war. From here is proof that even those who speak of saving Israel from an enemy at hand as a commanded war cannot mean it in its regular sense. The meaning is that it is not a discretionary war, but it is also not a regular commanded war; it is an act of saving life, and the laws of saving life apply. It was noted to me on my website that Rabbi Hershel Schachter, President of Yeshiva University in New York, instructs questioners that in such a situation every Jew abroad must go up to Israel and join the fighting. Even so, we have not seen such an instruction elsewhere, and this itself indicates that presumably decisors hold that today this is not a commanded war but a matter of saving life.
Present and future danger
Claims are raised that this is about preventing a future danger and therefore it should not be treated as saving life. When the risk materializes, we will need to enlist and confront it. This appears to be grounded in the continuation of the sugya in Sotah 44b:
“The dispute concerns reducing idolaters so that they will not come upon them. One master calls it a commanded war, and the other calls it discretionary. The practical difference: one occupied with a commandment is exempt from another commandment.”
This deals with a war we initiate against the gentiles in order to reduce the future danger they pose to us, and there is a dispute whether this is discretionary or commanded. But there the danger is not tangible; it is only a precautionary step. So too we saw in the JT Sotah 5:10 cited above, which distinguishes between when we go upon them (a preemptive war) and when they come upon us—which is an obligatory war to which all go out.
In our case, even if our situation were a future threat (which it truly is not), one who does not enlist and train now to prepare himself for war and to confront future threats will not be able to take part in the fighting when it arrives. A modern army and warfare are not conducted like battles of communities and tribes in antiquity. A modern army is a cumbersome and complex organization that requires long-term preparation, training, and organization, and constant readiness for any threat, especially when the threats facing us are very real. Therefore, enlistment must be ongoing—not only when the threat arises in practice.
It is fitting to cite Maimonides’ “Epistle on Astrology” (Iggerot HaRambam, ed. Rabbi Shilat, p. 480):
“And this is what destroyed our kingdom and ruined our Temple and brought us to this point … that we did not occupy ourselves with learning warfare nor with conquering lands.”
We note that in towns near the border, the common explanation for the permission to desecrate Shabbat is future risk. Hence, for tangible public dangers, even future dangers count as a threat justifying desecration of Shabbat.
Interim conclusions
We learn that according to all opinions, the wars in which we are engaged have at least the status of a commanded war to which all must go by law—and perhaps even more (as we saw, that they have the character of saving life, to which all go for reasons of saving life, irrespective of the laws of war). We saw that the claims for exemptions for this or that category are incorrect in themselves even regarding a regular commanded war, and are wholly irrelevant in a war to save Israel from an enemy at hand. We also saw that the obligation to bear the military burden is a moral obligation that appears in Scripture and a halakhic duty that appears in the Talmud and the decisors. It is clear that insofar as soldiers are needed for victory, all must bear this burden— including the tribe of Levi and Torah learners, and certainly those who are not such (ordinary Haredim).
One could argue in principle that we are not in a situation where the army needs all enlistees; hence, our discussion thus far would be irrelevant. But at present, all relevant bodies state that there is a severe manpower shortage and indeed all are needed. Reservists bear a very heavy burden and are called up again and again; they and their families groan under the weight, and many have even paid with their lives in the war. We have not even spoken about the enormous losses to the economy because workers are mobilized—this itself constitutes a kind of public saving of life. Simultaneously, Haredi parties—whose voters mostly do not enlist—see to it that their coffers are filled from the public purse, which is depleted precisely because they are not sharing the military and economic burden. The desecration of God’s Name cries out to Heaven. And all I have described is before a war breaks out on additional fronts beyond Gaza, such as Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, the Houthis and Iran, the territories and the Palestinian Authority, and an uprising of Palestinian citizens of Israel. If and when all this occurs, our small army will be stretched beyond the ability to cope.
But beyond all this, even if the army did not need everyone, that could perhaps justify exemptions for Torah learners, but certainly not a blanket exemption for all Haredim as is done today. If indeed only a portion of the youth is required, then let the army recruit that portion from across the population, but all segments of society must equally share this burden. This is the starting point: there is an obligation upon all to bear the burden.
Framework of the discussion: classifying the justifications for exemption
Having established the fundamental obligation to take part in the war, we will now examine the exemption-claims. I remind you of what we saw above: exemption-claims are like “I do not know whether I repaid you,” for they seek to release one from an obligation to fight that certainly exists. Therefore, the burden of proof is on the one claiming exemption.
The basic infrastructure of Haredi arguments against enlistment rests on four main components: 1) opposition to Zionism and the state (and distrust in secular leadership and command); 2) fear of spiritual decline (secularization, deterioration); 3) the value of Torah study (the need to cultivate “iluyim,” prodigies); 4) Torah as a substitute for defense: “Rabbanan la tzrichi netiruta” (sages do not need guarding— for themselves) and “Torah protects and saves” (they also protect the public).
It is important to understand that these different types of arguments aim to justify the non-enlistment of different groups and to different extents. The first and second arguments are the broadest, for they try to base the non-enlistment of all Haredim. The third is the narrowest, for it concerns only “iluyim” (a common term in this discourse, meaning a screened minority among learners who will grow in Torah and become spiritual and halakhic leadership), who should be exempt. The fourth concerns a group of intermediate size—all those studying. Needless to say, the latter two arguments are not specific to Haredim. We will now discuss each in turn.
- Ideology and theology
The basis of this argument is ideological and theological: the attitude toward the State of Israel and Zionism. As noted, it concerns all who adopt Haredi theology, not only learners. This indeed was the discourse before the state’s establishment and in Haredi ideological polemics, especially in its early years; but today it is usually not raised in external discourse (with rare slips by certain Haredi politicians and rabbis). Many think that even if it exists somewhere in the background, it does not factor into the reasoning for non-enlistment.
But this is not precise. First, the whole matter began with this, and also because for many Haredim it still depends upon it, mainly in internal discourse. Claims such as “what have we to do with them?” or “they are the ones who caused the problems; why should we fight and endanger ourselves because of that?” help the Haredi youth reconcile themselves with not bearing the burden. An atmosphere of alienation and lack of partnership leads to a quieted conscience regarding enlistment, even without formulating it as an ideological principle and without saying it explicitly.
As to the argument itself: it is hard to dispute theological claims, and this is not the place, but reality teaches its own way. At present, in practice, there is danger for all of us, and the question of who is to blame matters less. Even if Zionism is at fault for everything, ultimately all of us are now in mortal danger and therefore must do everything to fight and be saved—certainly if, factually, we all are needed in the war to win it. Thus, sending the “guilty” to fight for us—even if one is morally and theologically at peace with such a policy—is not a practical option. When in danger, there is no place to debate who is to blame. If someone bored a hole in our shared boat and cannot plug it, surely we must all help him. Therefore, we will not deal here with arguments for and against this (baseless) position on the ideological–theological plane.
Similar Haredi arguments rely on distrust of the secular government and of military command (and, of course, without si’ata diShmaya). I begin by noting that the government today includes all Haredi parties; thus it is strange to claim distrust in a secular government. Ministerial responsibility for all governmental actions was the basis of the long-standing Haredi policy of not joining the executive branch. Today they are in it. Beyond this, this claim is rejected exactly like the previous one. The alternative proposed is to surrender ourselves to death. Ultimately, we must choose between two bad options: fight under the current military and governmental framework (assuming we distrust its conduct) or not fight and die. The choice here is self-evident. On the contrary, when Haredim integrate into the army, they can influence its conduct and improve it. Either way, certainly sitting on the sidelines is not a reasonable choice between these two. And of course, leaving others to die for us— even if it sufficed for security and no Haredi soldiers were needed— is neither a moral nor halakhically correct solution.
- Fear of spiritual decline
This line of argument also concerns every Haredi (and perhaps also religious) person, not only learners. In my assessment, at least these days (and perhaps it was always so), this is the principal argument. The distinction between learners and non-learners appears in the discourse, but it seems born of necessity: it is hard to defend a stance of not bearing the burden out of insecurity and weakness vis-à-vis others, and it is much easier to project strength and declare: we, the learners, protect you. As is known, the Haredi world fears the exposure of the Haredi youth who enlists—to people and ideas outside the Haredi camp, which threatens the “purity of outlook” and perhaps religious commitment altogether, and thereby threatens the Haredi society as a whole (without seclusion there is danger of attrition and disintegration). Ostensibly, this seems a reasonable claim from their perspective: they are not shirking but merely trying to preserve their way of life; if the army threatens that, it seems legitimate not to enlist.
But this argument is quite weak, for several reasons. First, it is possible to organize protected service tracks in various ways—such as Haredi “hesder” yeshivot (which already exist), Haredi pre-military programs to prepare enlistees for army life, rabbinic accompaniment during service, and ensuring Haredi norms in kashrut, modesty, etc. (without entering the question of whether these are indeed the proper norms according to Torah and halakha). The common claim is that the army has not done this adequately until now, and even in the existing Haredi tracks there are unresolved issues. But those who make this claim ignore two important points: first, they ignore their own part. If they cared to enlist and fulfill their duty, there is no doubt the army would look vastly different. Especially in recent years, when Haredi parties take an active part in governance and the executive branch, they can ensure this themselves—or at least shoulder with the army to advance it according to their norms. For some reason there is a feeling that this is society’s duty toward the Haredi community. They ignore that Haredim are part of Israeli society and they are not doing anyone a favor by bearing the burden like everyone else. Moreover, the fact that Haredi youth do not enlist dampens the army’s motivation to build such frameworks. No person or organization invests in hypothetical tasks before seeing that there is purpose and value.
Beyond that, they ignore the fact that even if there is a risk of spiritual decline for a Haredi youth who enlists, that does not exempt him from fulfilling his duty—certainly not when he is needed as a soldier to achieve victory. Does such a consideration permit one not to kill a pursuer? If I saw someone being pursued to be killed, could I say I will not save him because I am studying Torah—or because the street where I must fight is filled with immodest sights and I fear spiritual decline? If I see a fire in a neighbor’s house, may I remain at home studying because I am a learner or a Haredi who is not required to rescue? This is exactly our current situation. There is a fire and an actual pursuit—only it is on a wider scale (a danger to the whole country and some threats are future), and thus it is easier to ignore.
Professor Haneskeh wrote in his article:
“Were the army to remove its protection from the yeshivot and Haredi centers, and these were faced with an immediate choice—to be slaughtered, God forbid, by the enemy, or to fight—there is no doubt the instruction would be to enlist, and all the future concerns would be null and void, as in saving life that overrides all prohibitions in the Torah (except the well-known three), including all spiritual declines entailed therein.”
So too wrote Rabbi Zevin in his aforementioned letter:
“Consider this yourselves: a directive has been issued by ‘Civil Guard’ to paste cloth or paper over all windowpanes because of the danger of bombing. Could one imagine that Torah scholars would not do this, claiming that ‘sages do not need guarding’? Did any of those engaged in Torah shirk this instruction? And why did Torah scholars, together with all our brethren Israel, leave the frontline neighborhoods being hit by snipers’ fire and not rely on that segulah of ‘sages do not need guarding’?”
There is here a conceptual error regarding halakha as a whole (which indeed touches the broader Haredi outlook). Imagine: how many of us advocate fleeing to the deserts to avoid the sin of gossip and other prohibitions? We received a tradition that the Torah was not given to heaven’s angels nor to those who eat manna. The Torah is to be realized in our world with all its obstacles and challenges; if there are challenges, that is not a reason to avoid assuming life’s vital functions. There are values in halakha for which we must even die or, at least, pay a very dear price. Saving Israel from an enemy at hand is one of them. Army service involves danger to life, which is more severe than any fear of spiritual decline, and even so this is no excuse to avoid enlistment. It is inconceivable that an entire society would send others to risk their lives for it because of certain principles—however important they may be. Each of us has a very basic and important principle: he does not want to die. Does that justify not enlisting? Is eating only the Rabbanut’s kashrut or seeing a woman in pants (assuming the Haredi frameworks in the army will not be perfect) a justification for all of us to die? Surely everyone agrees that a person may not steal others’ money to heal himself or to cope with threats and challenges to his way of life and outlook. How, then, may one send others to die on his behalf because of these fears?
The threats and risks a Haredi youth faces are the Haredi society’s problem, exactly as the threats that a non-Haredi religious youth faces are the non-Haredi society’s problem. Therefore, each group or individual must address those threats as best they can; but that does not justify avoiding the burden and failing to fulfill so basic a halakhic and civic duty, and certainly it does not justify our all dying because of a lack of soldiers. As noted above, arranging frameworks that minimize harm is important and worthy of attention; but that should be, first and foremost, the Haredi society’s interest as it must fulfill its duty to society and the state, and it must ensure that it is done—not expect others to do it for it.
I wonder how many Haredim would refrain from taking a lulav or from eating kosher because of fear of spiritual decline. We saw that army service is a halakhic and moral duty no less than eating kosher. How many Haredim would avoid seeing a doctor for a serious illness or calling the police when they are violently attacked, if there were a fear of spiritual decline? Army service is the actual saving of all our lives. For some reason, the duty of army service receives among Haredim a different, more dismissive treatment—because there are those who do the work on their behalf. But now even that is false. As explained above, others can no longer bear the burden and do all the work; now we are all in tangible danger. There is no one to do the work.
- The value of Torah study
The third argument is the value of Torah study. The claim is that halakhic growth requires full dedication, and thus enlistment would greatly hinder it. As support, they cite draft exemptions granted to outstanding athletes and artists, and the claim arises: “Shall the priest be like the innkeeper?” Surely Torah study is no less important than these pursuits; therefore, Torah learners should also be exempt. Note that this argument is also relevant to non-Haredi Torah learners. It is also important to note that, of course, this can justify an exemption for a much smaller number of learners—not a blanket exemption for Haredim or even for all Torah learners.
The arguments above—that the army needs Haredi soldiers—are not relevant to small numbers of exemptions. Therefore, this is a wholly legitimate and worthy consideration. I believe there is quite broad agreement among the Israeli public that it is appropriate to exempt a certain number of carefully selected learners, according to criteria of diligence and talent, who dedicate themselves to long-term growth in Torah (this is not an exemption until age twenty-six after which the learner can go into business, as is common today). Incidentally, this chosen group should also be properly compensated (not with the current meager stipends due to the large number of learners), to enable them to dedicate themselves and grow in Torah and to constitute a future spiritual and halakhic leadership. Of course, this includes worthy learners from all communities—not only Haredim. Needless to say, this exemption should be seen as one society grants out of appreciation for those learners—not as a right to which anyone is entitled and can demand. As we saw above, by law, no person has an exemption from a war to save Israel from an enemy at hand.
If we adopt a new social compact that exempts a small cohort of learners who suit it, they can be considered, for this purpose, as the tribe of Levi. True, as we saw above, Maimonides speaks only of those who are like Ben Azzai and Rashbi—who, due to their clinging to Torah, were exempt from commandments, including the commandment of war and of saving Israel from an enemy at hand. But such an exemption can be granted also to those who do not reach these lofty criteria, since it is not a right that is theirs by law but a privilege that society grants them also for its own sake and not only for them; and society has the right to do so even in our spiritually impoverished generation, where we have no “sons of Levi” who have cast off all worldly calculations.
- Torah as a substitute for defense
The last argument is that learners protect us all; therefore, they indeed contribute their share even without enlisting. This argument is broader than the previous and could perhaps serve as the basis to exempt all learners (again—not only Haredim). I already noted that this argument is more convenient for Haredi apologetics, for it does not request privileges but places those who do not learn on the defensive. Some go so far as to claim that the learners are the true protectors of Israel, and the fighters are only the necessary hishtadlut (human effort).
As we wrote at the outset, this section divides into two different claims: (A) Rabbanan la ba’u netiruta—sages do not need guarding; i.e., the army’s protection is only necessary for ordinary citizens, not for Torah learners, who are guarded by their Torah. Consequently, they are not obligated to contribute to defense, for they are not its “clients” (as if they were citizens of another state for this purpose). (B) “Torah protects and saves.” This can be understood similarly—that Torah protects and saves the one who studies it—and then we have returned to the previous section. But the way it is used in the draft debate is that Torah also protects and saves the public. That is, the claim is not only that learners are exempt because they do not need guarding; they also fulfill their part in the guarding by their studying and thereby protect us all.
In this discussion, we must first distinguish between aggadic and halakhic sources. “Torah protects and saves” is an aggadic statement, and any practical (certainly halakhic) conclusion derived from it is highly tentative. By contrast, “sages do not need guarding” is cited in halakhic contexts and has halakhic ramifications.
“Torah protects and saves”
In Sotah 21a, the gemara discusses the protective effect of commandments and of Torah study, and says both protect, but Torah more so:
“It was taught: This was expounded by Rabbi Menachem b. Yose: ‘For the commandment is a lamp and Torah is light’—the verse associates the commandment with a lamp and the Torah with light. The commandment with a lamp—to teach that just as a lamp protects only temporarily, so a commandment protects only temporarily. The Torah with light—to teach that just as light protects forever, so Torah protects forever. And it says: ‘When you walk, it will guide you…’—‘When you walk, it will guide you’—this is in this world; ‘when you lie down, it will watch over you’—this is death; ‘and when you awaken, it will speak with you’—this is the World to Come. A parable: A man was walking in the dark of night and he feared thorns, pits, and briars, wild beasts and bandits, and he did not know which way he was walking. A torch of light was brought to him; he was saved from thorns, pits, and briars, but he still feared wild beasts and bandits, and he did not know which way he was walking. When dawn arose, he was saved from wild beasts and bandits, but he still did not know which way he was walking. When he reached the crossroads, he was saved from all. Alternatively: a transgression extinguishes a commandment, but a transgression does not extinguish Torah, as it says: ‘Many waters cannot extinguish love.’ Rav Yosef said: A commandment, while one is engaged in it, protects and saves; when he is not engaged in it—it protects but does not save. Torah, whether one is engaged in it or not, protects and saves. Rava objected: But Doeg and Ahitophel—did they not study Torah? Why did it not protect them? Rather, Rava said: Torah, when one is engaged in it, protects and saves; when he is not engaged in it—it protects but does not save. A commandment, whether one is engaged in it or not—it protects but does not save.”
First, Rava concludes that even Torah, when one is not engaged in it, perhaps protects but does not save from an existing trouble (again the distinction between a present threat and preventing a future one). Throughout the sugya it simply appears that the reference is to protection of the learner himself, not of the public. One could perhaps adduce other sources that speak of the merit of learning and its benefit to those who support learners, and perhaps to society at large. But to rely on Torah as protection against an existing and tangible threat that has no solution in the natural order without fighting—this is truly a far-reaching conclusion. Moreover, in the decisors we cited, such as the Ḥazon Ish and the Brisker Rav, there is no mention of “Torah protects and saves.” They discuss whether soldiers are needed in the army for victory in the natural order, and they hinge the duty to enlist on that. Even if we rely on Maimonides’ comparison of Torah scholars to the tribe of Levi, that teaches an exemption for God’s servants; we addressed that above.
Either way, the meaning of that “protection” is no simple question. Are there not Torah learners who suffer all sorts of harms? This they themselves. What about others? Can others rely on the protection of the learners? The gemara itself wonders about Doeg and Ahitophel and offers answers. Our eyes see that Torah study did not protect the victims of the Simḥat Torah massacre or the soldiers who fall daily in Gaza. Rabbi Zevin asks: where was that protection for the victims of the 1929 Hebron massacre? And many others likewise. In any case, as is the way with aggadah, it is hard to derive clear halakhic conclusions: Even if Torah indeed protects the public, how much Torah must be studied for it to protect? How many learners are needed to protect against an enemy who rises to destroy us? To what extent does it protect, and whom? If I am ill, should I not go to the doctor because Torah protects me? If someone attacks me to kill me, shall I suffice with Torah study and not make efforts to be saved? Again, all this concerns the person himself. But even regarding protecting others, one must wonder: does anyone propose that I stop taking medicine or going to work because his Torah “protects and saves” me? Does he himself refrain from doing so?
Torah is, of course, extremely important to all of us. Moreover, our survival is not only a value in itself but also primarily to advance Torah. Part of the goal of war and survival is the ability to continue Torah study and transmit it to future generations. Therefore, it seems unreasonable to cancel Torah entirely for the sake of survival. But that is not the case here: this is not about wholesale cancellation of Torah, but about sharing the burden with society. All can study in the years when they are not in service—before and after—and each in his turn will contribute his share to Torah study. In the hesder yeshivot there is always Torah being studied by those in yeshiva while other cohorts are, in their turn, in military service.
It is unreasonable that those who demand exemption from military service on the grounds that their Torah protects us would make similar proposals in personal matters. On the general level, it is easier and less refutable, because there are those who do the work and die on their behalf; thus it is easy to say that we were saved by Torah. Where the learner would have to rely only on Torah without others’ hishtadlut for him—when his own life is directly endangered—he will not do so. This is precisely what is meant by “one must not rely on a miracle”; when action is needed, one must act and not rely on Torah’s protection, even if such exists. And certainly this applies when the danger is blatant and present—such is our situation now.
So writes the Rashba (Responsa I §1013):
“Even the pious among the pious have no permission to act in their affairs by way of trust [alone], but only in the manner of the world—that he should not say: I will light my lamp with water or wine and rely on a miracle… This is not a lack of trust; on the contrary, it is forbidden to rely on a miracle.”
“Sages do not need guarding”
The source is in the tax sugyot in the first chapter of Bava Batra. The structure of tax laws is complex; the main question is how to distribute participation in public needs among citizens. I note briefly that today we do not apply the tax laws that appear in those sugyot even in other contexts—not only in the state but also in wholly religious and Haredi communities. Therefore, any practical conclusion drawn from those sugyot is tentative. The sugya is quite involved; here we address it only as much as needed.
One principle the Talmud presents is that for certain matters, participation in public needs is according to the degree of benefit one receives. Thus, for example, a wealthy man benefits more from a city wall that protects against bandits; hence he should participate more in its costs than a poor man. Likewise, a family with many children benefits more from educational institutions, etc. According to this principle, a Torah scholar who is himself protected by the Torah he has learned and is learning is exempt from participating in security costs, since he does not need protection. Note that this exemption does not derive from his protecting all of us, but from his own being protected. The claim that he protects us all is a different claim, not raised in those sugyot (which itself is telling), and we addressed it in the previous section. The claim is that just as Torah scholars are exempt from guarding expenses because they do not need them, they are exempt by the same rationale from military service itself.
To be brief, we use Rabbi Yair Aton’s article, “Torah Considerations in Dividing the Tax Burden,” Mishorim 1, Yeruḥam 2004. In chapter 5 he discusses the exemption of Torah scholars from guarding expenses. He presents three arguments:
- The exemption from guarding is because they do not need it. According to this, this is not an exemption for Torah scholars per se but an application of the general principle of participation according to need. Indeed, there the gemara explains that there are Torah scholars who do participate in expenses in cases where they too need guarding. The question is whether the learners we discuss truly do not need guarding. Do they not call the police when a burglar enters their house? Do they not worry about livelihood when in distress? How, then, can one employ this principle only with regard to military service?!
- Moreover, even if we accept the assumption that one who does not need a service need not participate in its maintenance—what does that say about expenses for Haredi culture and education, mikva’ot, and more? Must one who is not Haredi fund those institutions? We have not heard of such a waiver on the Haredi side. The assumption underlying the Haredi claim “sages do not need guarding” is that each community should fund itself and its needs; but this is not the assumption of a modern state, nor of the Haredim themselves in other contexts.
Incidentally, the sugya also presents an exemption for Torah scholars from all royal taxes. Rabbi Aton argues that this is only for gentile kings; but even without this, we have not heard a demand by learners to exempt them from taxes. Why is military service different?
- The exemption from taxes is also tied there to the notion that calamity comes to the world because of the unlearned. That is, learners are not the source of the trouble and thus not obligated to address it. I already noted above (in the theology section) how strange this claim is. Beyond the theological novelty about who brings calamities upon us, and the diagnostic novelty that grants us the tools to determine who is a Torah scholar and who is an ignoramus and because of whom troubles come upon us—and beyond the halakhic conclusions derived from such a diagnosis—there is here the assumption that participation in expenses is determined by blame (who caused the expense), not by the degree of threat (i.e., who needs rescue). Note that this is not blame that justifies tort liability; thus, in itself, it is a substantial novelty. Beyond this, we could now enter questions of fault for various expenses in our state and set participation accordingly. Here too you will see that the Haredi public likely will not want to go this way.
Needless to say, all these claims concern exemption from taxes for guarding expenses (presumably primarily protection from theft, not necessarily danger to life). That is, we speak of monetary expenses for defense against a prospective danger from enemies who might come upon us (see also Rashi, Bava Metzia 108a). But as we saw, in our case we face an existing threat; and now the discussion is not about participating in financial security costs but about participating in the war itself, already underway. Hence, nothing can be learned for this from tax laws. As we saw, in a war to save Israel from an enemy at hand, there is no exemption—for learner nor Haredi nor anyone— even if we accept that from paying taxes they might be exempt.
I add generally: throughout those sugyot it is implied that Torah protects its learners—not the public. The discussion is exemption due to lack of need or lack of fault. I have not heard anyone among us claim that if we have Torah learners, there is no need at all to expend on security because nothing will happen to any of us. The very principle that “Torah protects and saves” is not raised in those sugyot—indicating it is not a factor there. The claim that learners protect the public cannot rely on those sugyot—and perhaps is even contradicted by them. But, as seen here, even regarding protecting the learners themselves, the claim is used very selectively.
Already the Radbaz mocked Torah scholars who request exemption from guarding taxes relying on the Talmudic maxim that they “do not need guarding,” yet reveal their hypocrisy by refusing in any way to be left without guards (Responsa Radbaz II §1392):
“The sages cry out: Appoint guards! They themselves admit that they need guarding. Is there, by law or reason, that they should compel the householders to appoint guards and not assist them? To compel them in such a matter—no one ever said such a thing. And if someone did, we do not obey him, for the attribute of justice has been stricken… Even though there is another reason, namely that I am in doubt whether there is anyone today who does not need guarding, I will not enter that inquiry now, for my words would grieve some scholars; therefore, silence is better than speech.”
Note: the midrash on “a thousand from each tribe”
Many cite as a source for exempting learners the midrash on Numbers 31:4—learning from “a thousand from each tribe” that Moses separated from each tribe a number of men who would pray for the fighters. But in light of all we have seen, this source is untenable for us, for many reasons.
First, this is an aggadic midrash that contradicts halakha; we do not derive halakha from it. In halakha we saw the rule clearly and without dispute. By this logic, we should send the head of the Sanhedrin alone to the war instead of the entire army (like Yair ben Menashe, who was equivalent to most of the Sanhedrin). This too is written in a midrash. Second, the verses themselves say that Moses took only a thousand soldiers from each tribe—apparently because that is what was needed there. Does anyone imagine that if soldiers are needed for victory, we will exempt someone because Moses separated a thousand to pray? We saw that, in a war to save Israel from an enemy at hand, we act under the laws of saving life; thus anyone needed goes out. Third, the midrash says that a thousand were also taken from the tribe of Levi (which does not align with the interpretation above of Maimonides’ words in Shemitah and Yovel). Fourth, this was not a war to save Israel from an enemy at hand; it was vengeance against Midian—not defense. Fifth, I already noted that the same midrash says that beyond the Levites, the Sanhedrin also went out to war. Sixth, it was Moses’ decision on his own—not a binding halakha. If the state decides to separate men to pray for the fighters, all is well. But learners have no vested right to be exempt. Seventh, the state indeed is willing to exempt some learners (and below we will support this), but the Haredim want to exempt everyone. Eighth, our learners do not engage in prayer for the fighters but in regular Torah study.
Conclusion and summary
The end of the matter, all is heard: There is a complete obligation upon every person of Israel, without exception, to participate in a war to save Israel from an enemy at hand. The four exemption-claims raised against this obligation are baseless in themselves; and as I noted above, it would suffice to show that they are not compelling to reject them, for the burden of proof lies on the one claiming exemption.
Since these claims are raised at times even by clear Torah scholars, it is indeed a wonder that they present arguments lacking any logical, moral, and halakhic foundation. It seems that fear of Haredi society’s disintegration underlies these claims; but we have received that there is neither counsel nor wisdom against the Lord. Halakha says here, unequivocally, that there is a duty to enlist, and all concerns—many of which should not be dismissed—must be set aside when there is an existential threat and when nationwide mobilization is required. This is a passing commandment, and even a learner is not exempt from it; likewise, one who fears spiritual decline is not exempt from it.
We note that in 2030 the Haredim are estimated to constitute about 25% of Israelis under twenty; among the Jewish public that enlists, this is far higher (about a third). Therefore, this is not about exemptions for a few dozens or hundreds of outstanding athletes or artists, but a dramatic blow to the size of the army and thus to the security of all of us. In a time of existential threat like ours, when professionals constantly say that every soldier is needed for the war effort, there is no justification to exempt such numbers for any reason whatsoever. The burden imposed upon the rest of the population is unbearable—especially when that burden is imposed by a government largely made up of Haredi parties. How terrible is the desecration of God’s Name caused by this.
Even if not all soldiers were needed, there would still be no justification to exempt a single sector. The burden must be shared by all. The claim that the enlistment rate across Israel’s population is low is irrelevant to exempting any person or group from this duty. First, because if one accounts for Arabs and Haredim, the rate is not so low (about 65% of the Jewish public; if one accounts for Haredim, it rises much higher). Moreover, regarding Haredim, this is a blanket exemption for a specific sector—not individual draft dodgers who should be dealt with separately. Here we address the basic duty to enlist, not the modes and quality of enforcement—which of course also need improvement. The same applies to the efficiency of the IDF’s conduct and manpower utilization, which also needs improvement. But none of this justifies granting exemptions to anyone. On the contrary, let Haredim enlist and take part in improving the army and its conduct. This is not an oppositional stance by the Haredi public against the state. Haredim are not doing anyone a favor. They are part of the state, and all existing problems lie at their doorstep as well.
Despite everything, we argued that it is indeed appropriate to grant a selective exemption to a small group of outstanding learners and even to ensure for them financial freedom for their growth in Torah. We also note the conclusion that it is appropriate to arrange proper military service frameworks suited to the Haredi public and its values, to minimize their fears of enlistment—but this task lies mainly upon the Haredim themselves (especially now, when they comprise a significant part of the government and coalition). When they will bestir themselves, it is clear that aid from all of us will certainly come.
[1] There is room to qualify the term “dina de-malchuta” with respect to Israel’s government, for in its original sense it concerns a gentile kingdom in the Diaspora. The foundation of a king’s authority in Israel may be different (see, e.g., Gershon German, Melekh Yisrael), though one must discuss what applies to a regime like ours that is not committed to halakha and Torah. In any case, here I used the common term “dina de-malchuta,” if only for simplicity; for our purposes, it suffices.
[2] I was alerted by Elḥanan Shilo to several sources indicating that there were groups and approaches that indeed surrendered themselves to death on Shabbat (see, e.g., 1 Maccabees 2; the end of the Book of Jubilees; Yaakov Gontschel, Another Land 35, on Ethiopian practices; Frontinus the Roman, Stratagems 2.1.17; Sefer HaShabbat, 1958, p. 196, from the Shabbat laws of a Damascus community in the Middle Ages). These are various sects, some of whom did so even after the Hasmonean court’s exegesis. But it is clear to me that this was never the general approach in any period—if only because otherwise we would not be here today. Even the gemara in Yoma, which discusses the law that saving life overrides Shabbat, opens with the question “From where do we know that saving a life overrides Shabbat?”—not “Does saving a life override Shabbat?” The gemara merely seeks a source; the law itself was clear from the outset (and at the end of the sugya there we see that even the law for a doubtful case of saving life was clear before the discussion).
[3] One could counter that his intent is only to say that not all the details of commanded wars apply in our time, and he need not state it explicitly. Still, perhaps there is commanded war in our time. But from his plain language it appears that, in our time, there is no commanded war at all. One could also say he refers to the era of exile, when there is no king over Israel in any sense. This too is strained, for saving Israel from an enemy at hand certainly applies in exile as well. But from his wording this does not seem to be his intent.
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What a world
Because of the fools (or rather those who pretend to be) it is necessary to go into so much detail
It is so simple that one must enlist and whoever does not do so is wicked and evil
Fifty percent of the people, if not more, (depending on which channel you watch…) are in favor of ending the war now, here and now - if Hamas releases all the hostages. The vast majority of security officials are in favor of this. So what ‘war of commandment’ are you talking about, Your Honor?
Who talked about a mandatory war? Do you bother to read before you respond?
As for your assumptions, what the majority of the people want doesn't really matter, and it's also not true that this is the data (depending on how and what you ask). And the same goes for security officials, first of all it depends on how and who you count and beyond that it's not at all certain that they are the ones who determine and that their position is indeed correct.
I do not know of a halakhic argument against the claim of the disintegration of Haredi society. This is a simple factual claim [and in any case the debate on it belongs to the factual realm and not to the halakhic] that the disintegration of Haredi society will include a dropout and halakhic disintegration [even according to non-Haredi religious standards] and it is apparently also a fairly reasonable fact that a broad mobilization of Haredi will result in a mass exodus of Haredi into the general world and it is difficult to say that the level of observance of Halacha will not be harmed in such a situation.
A situation in which there is concern about a general deterioration in observance of the mitzvot is defined in Halacha as a time to do it. In such a situation, it is possible to deviate from a specific mitzvah for the purpose of observing the general mitzvot, so that although helping Israel from a short distance is a halakhic obligation, it is not valid in such cases.
A time to do it that allows one to deviate from a specific Halacha includes even Life is explained in several places in the halakhah, such as not healing with asherah trees so that they will not be dragged into idolatry, even though as a result the patient will die, and there is also permission for the judge to stone and kill not according to the rules of the halakhah if they see the time is necessary for this because of the protection of the observance of the general commandments.
So apparently the claim of pikuach nefesh does not stand up to the claim of time to do the ha’
To my understanding, even according to the Haredim themselves, the issue belongs to the meta-halakhic level and not to the specific halakhah.
Absolutely not true. They cite sources (such as the end of the Shmita and Yuval). They make idle arguments that students are exempt. They even add out of the blue that those who do not study should enlist. And above all, the disintegration of Haredi society is not a relevant consideration. If they are willing to die for this, they will be respected and sit on the border and not exploit their surroundings, as Radb”z said. Beyond that, anyone can invent that the disintegration of attitudes towards the color of socks is a time to do Ha’. And finally, as long as the observance of public commandments is not in danger, concern for details is not an excuse. At most, they will become like the religious-nationalists. At least we will be alive.
These are idle excuses. It is clear that their whole concern is with preserving Harediism and everything else is a complete lie, but this reasoning is also baseless.
I was wrong about the Haredi claim itself, which is indeed not on the meta-halakhic level as I wrote
But I didn't understand what the answer to the claim itself is. A. At least according to some of their official publications, they are willing to die for it [he will be killed and he will cross over, etc.]
B. What does the rabbi mean by being respectful and sitting on the border and not taking advantage of their surroundings? Is this a halakhic claim against the claim of a time to act or a non-halakhic moral claim? And if so, is this an area where halakhic law is subordinate to morality? And if the rabbi's intention is to claim insincerity, then this is a problem for the Haredim, but on a halakhic level there is no answer here. From a halakhic perspective, this is forbidden even if the Haredim themselves don't understand why it is forbidden halakhically?
C. I didn't understand why public observance of the mitzvot is not in danger. If the dropout rate increases from fifteen percent to thirty-five percent, for example, following mass recruitment of Haredim, this is ostensibly a public decline in the level of observance of the mitzvot. Perhaps the rabbi doesn't think this is the factual situation, but the Haredim are sure that this is the situation [someone I know, anyway]
A. They are willing to die as long as it is clear that their lives are not in danger. They are also willing to give up budgets as long as they are transferred to them in other ways. The unsubstantiated rants of these fools mean nothing.
When they hold their demonstrations in Gaza without resorting to security, medical services, or funding, we will talk.
B. This is indeed a halakhic claim that shows that they themselves do not believe in the nonsense they are reciting. Radb”z wrote about this.
C. No, this is not a danger that justifies evasion. At most, they should work to establish an appropriate military framework.
I think this discussion is delusional. As far as I am concerned, I am finished.
They just sent me a brochure about recruiting yeshiva students written by my friend Nadav Schnerb, who was a yeshiva student. It reminded me of something I had forgotten: https://woland.ph.biu.ac.il/?download=269
A fundamental mistake is that the Haredi public is characterized by fear of the word ’. Maybe that was the case in the past, but today the definition of the Haredi public is social, not ideological. My Harediism is the negation of the secular and religious ways of life nationally. This allows businessmen (not the Gaddoil who are not versed in the Dinar form) to control an entire public.
No one thought otherwise. The question is how a person allows himself to deny both Halacha and morality in this way.
The blatant and tangible proof that the Haredim are not afraid of spiritual decline for the sake of fulfilling an (imaginary) mitzvah is the mass and daily influx of young boys into naked baptism in a mikveh that is infested with pedophiles and organ hunters.
And despite the obvious dangers that are common and widespread in those baptismal houses, they continue to encourage the tender young flock to provoke Satan to gamble and risk sexual harm
??
It is also worth noting that among the organ hunters in the mikveh there is a significant percentage of cannibals and human sacrificers. The mikvehs themselves are also sometimes poisoned and 5G sensors are installed in their ceilings that send the information to Eichmann (he is still alive, as we know, and lives in Brazil), who once a month edits the videos beautifully with moving music and presents them to Satan and Gog and Magog.
Thank you, and I was moved by the dedication
Are the same things true regarding the recruitment of religious girls? After all, the claims are not fundamentally different, and even if there is a Dina Demalkuta here, is it possible that it is a Dina Dhammasnuta?
I debated whether to address this in the ruling. In my opinion, there is no difference in principle and it is also mandatory for women. But the division of roles and the order of precedence is left to the monarchy and the army. And of course, the qualifications and characteristics of women must be taken into account. Therefore, distinguishing between women and men in this matter is not a matter of Dahmasnuta. On the contrary, in my opinion, the army and the government do not properly consider combat service by women and are in a hurry to integrate them without justification due to political pressures. This is also not true. I have written here in the past why such service by women is problematic.
And the commentators have already written about a veiled bride that the intention is that she will deal with logistics and not combat. But of course, if there is no choice and they are necessary for victory, considerations of convenience are the sole determinants. By the way, if more Haredi men were enlisting, there would be less need for women.
I meant Dina Dhammasuna that religious women can be satisfied with national service.
I understand. That's what I answered. For me, national service is like military service, and society can direct women there. As long as it's truly effective and for the common good. Of course, secular women can too if they want to, and society will agree.
Why is national service considered like military service? It's just forced labor to create a false equality.
And what about the Serdriniki?
Regarding the priests who go to war, you forgot Nehemiah 11:14 and their brothers, men of war, one hundred and eighty, and their commander was Zabdiel, the son of the mighty men.
In the current discussion, the question has arisen whether Israel's aid is seen as a war of commandment, as is the accepted view, or as a fiqon, as I claim.
A war of commandment should be conducted by the king, and therefore it depends on whether or not we see royal rule here. Fiqon does not depend on that. Beyond that, is it permissible for a Jew in the land to flee abroad and not fight? And so is it obligatory for a Jew living abroad to come here to fight. Regarding both questions, if it is a war of commandment, then it is forbidden to flee and a Jew abroad must come and fight. In my opinion, it is permissible to flee and there is no obligation to come.
For some reason, I have not heard a ruling that obliges Jews abroad to come and fight.
Rabbi Zvi Shechter of YU tells everyone who asks that foreigners are also obligated
I don't understand why we need to get into halachic arguments. There is a much simpler argument here: the Haredim demand a service and are not willing to pay for it in the currency agreed upon with the service provider. This is called "theft."
It's like someone who buys bread at the grocery store and insists on paying for it with pages of the Gemara, despite the seller's protests that he is actually interested in money. This is theft for all intents and purposes.
I am Haredi, and I posed this question to several friends, and I received no answer.
It's written inside.
No one disputes the problem – It's true that Haredim don't enlist and that's a lie. The question is what the solution is. It's clear to you that the secularists will cry about religiousness in the army much faster than the Haredim will cry about the halana. What happened with the tefillin stand in Tel Aviv or a mixed performance in Afula will be nothing compared to what will happen with Haredim in the army. This will undoubtedly tear the army apart from within. Add to that the fact that the average Haredi is already married in his early 20s and even has a child or two – in other words, we are talking about giving a respectable salary to tens of thousands of soldiers, who will constitute a huge financial burden on the country. To the point of collapse, at a time when it is not certain that there will be any more all-out wars like this that would justify such a massive conscription.
And this leads me to the more important question: Do all the laws and commandments you mentioned here, mean that you are willing to serve 3 years in the army, even if there is no war? What will happen if they recruit another 30,000 Haredim now and then the next all-out war will only come in 20 years.. (This is what led to the closure of divisions in the past) Will tens of thousands more just sit around serving as useless jobbers? (This is true for Haredim and non-Haredim alike).
I think that some kind of track similar to the reserves should be created, in which they would do training and reserve from time to time, and that way they would train fighters for times of need, even without full conscription. This would also provide a real solution to the halakhic problems you presented here of protecting one's life, and going to war, etc. There is no command in the Torah to sit on a military base for 3 years.
For your information, they tried to shorten the service from three years to 30 months before the war. Then the war broke out and it turned out that we were missing at least 3 armored divisions. So maybe we should have another 30,000 Haredi fighters to fill the ranks and reduce the reserve burden from the productive sector of the economy instead of making calculations and calculations that pretend to be wise but in reality only convey an avoidance of the burden.
And as for the matter itself, there is no obligation to equalize the burden. There is an obligation to share the burden. Tracks like the Haredi Nachal, the Seder Yeshivas, and perhaps what is being talked about now about the National Guard allow this to one degree or another (of course, full regular service would be at a higher military level than shortened service). But the Haredi even give up on that.
This is actually an invention. Replace the word equality with partnership and all sorts of tzedekki. There is no justification for one to serve half of the other, just as there is no justification for one not to serve at all.
There are people in the army who do a week a week, a week in the army, a week at home. Do you think this arrangement that serves vulnerable populations should be abolished?
There are people who enlist in advance for more years, such as pilots and reservists. Do you think this arrangement should be abolished?
Girls serve two years instead of three. Do you think they should be extended to three?
I am not a communist and do not advocate a bed of Sodom that shortens the long ones and lengthens the short ones. As long as, in principle, people bear the burden with their friends, I am not opposed to special tracks as long as they are fair (for example, the regulars serve less in the army but go out at a later age for citizenship).
I didn't understand the connection. There are also those who are entitled to full exemption, due to illnesses, mental illnesses, etc. Has anyone thought to compare them to Torah scholars who are entitled to full exemption? Also, there is no connection between those who are entitled to shortened service for one reason or another and the Hesder yeshivas who only enlist for half service.
What about this?
“The verse is in the book of Numbers (chapter 1 verse 4) “A thousand for a thousand for a thousand for all the camps of Israel you shall send to the army”, and they said in the Midrash Rabbah there (parsha 22 paragraph 3) that for every thousand people who would go to fight in the army, a thousand would remain to pray for them.”
I took it from the dialogue
These are nonsense for a thousand reasons.
First, this is a Midrash that contradicts the Halacha and does not teach practical Halacha from it. I have shown the Halacha clearly and without dispute what the ruling is.
Second, in the verses themselves it is written that they took a thousand soldiers from each tribe, which is probably what they needed. Does anyone think that if soldiers are needed for the Pikuach Nefesh, we will exempt someone because Moses set aside a thousand for prayer? Here we are operating by virtue of the laws of Pikuach Nefesh, and therefore everyone who is needed is exempted and that is it.
Third, in the Midrash it appears that they also took a thousand from the tribe of Levi (where is the Rambam in the Halacha of Shemitah and Jubilees?).
Fourth, this was also not a war to help Israel from a narrow path, since it is about revenge on Midian. Fifth, in the Midrash it is written on a website that in addition to the Levites, the Sanhedrin themselves also went to war.
Sixth, these are decisions of Moses of his own free will and not by Halacha. If the state decides to set aside people to pray, all is well. But they have no right to be dismissed.
Seventh, the state is indeed willing to exempt some students, but the Haredim want them all. And eighth, they are not engaged in praying for the fighters but in studying Torah as usual.
Maybe we should even send the head of the Sanhedrin alone to war instead of the entire army (like Yair ben Menashe) and all is well. This is also written in the Midrash.
Thanks for the answer!
This is a very common argument among the ultra-Orthodox
And even if it is stupid, it is worth considering.
If we take the words of Rav Sharira Gaon about the death of 24,000 of Rabbi Akiva's students who died in the Bar Kokhba War, we can extract from this another insight that shows that in practice the Midrash on Alef Mata did not take place in historical reality. After all, if there were 24,000 students, 24 million students were supposed to study against them.
A fundamentally parasitic concept to the point where the camel doesn't even see its own hump.
I will only address the final proposal: Let's assume for a moment that there is no point in them sitting in a base for 3 years (after all, we have come to know that when we are attacked, we have enough with a meager defense force on the seam line, and we will receive from our enemies all the time we need to organize and bring the best reserves to the front in time, and from there the road to complete victory is already short because who is greater for us than Yanki Deri in the reserve against our enemies).
Would you agree that in your proposal, the Haredim will be the ones conscripted for a full period, while another group, for example, the one that bears more of the economic burden, will be the one who performs symbolic service and will only be called up for the reserves as needed?
I didn't even address the balance, who will enlist more and who less. I'm saying that if the claim is "pikuach nefesh", this can be prevented through a different and not full service. And as mentioned, the economic burden will be less great. No, the problem on the Gaza border was not one of manpower, but of disdain, arrogance and a crazy lack of organization. If they had acted properly (throwing in a crazy idea - one plane!!!! that was in the air in real time and killing everyone on the fence) this horror would not have happened. Certainly not on such a scale.
I agree with everything and I would prefer that the State of Israel not forcibly recruit people who refuse to do so on principle. Not for religious or moral reasons but for liberal reasons. I don't want to be Tsarist Russia and I don't want to forcibly recruit people who see me as Tsarist Russia.
There is nothing more repulsive than an ultra-Orthodox person who pretends to be a liberal.
The man will think that he has the right to ban public transportation on Shabbat in Tel Aviv, to put police officers at the entrance of hospitals, to hear someone enter with chametz, but to force him? God forbid, this is really communism!
All conscription is coercion, if you think otherwise, you are welcome to cancel the conscription obligation and see how many soldiers you have left.
Along the way, reduce income tax and national insurance and let people decide for themselves how much they want to give.
It's nice to hear that I'm Haredi and I didn't know. Maybe I'm Haredi in disguise, and maybe I'm ketchup.
Regarding transportation on Shabbat, I admit that I'm less connected, but maybe for other reasons than you assume. Regarding chametz in hospitals, it's a more complex issue, but I agree that if you don't impose a chametz ban on Arab patients, there's no reason to impose it on secular ones.
And I thought about it, and there's some difference between collecting taxes in money and going to the army. It's common in the army that for suicidal actions, you don't give an order, but rather ask for volunteers. And it's common in Western countries like the US and England not to recruit Quakers for combat roles, but at most for combat support roles like stretcher bearers and the like (in England, stretcher bearers are not combatants). The army is a slightly different activity than financial taxes, and the attitude is slightly different. And in this regard, I prefer to be more American than Russian.
I am attaching a post I wrote about transportation on Shabbat (not necessarily public):
https://yuddaaled.wordpress.com/2022/09/06/%d7%94%d7%a9%d7%91%d7%aa-%d7%95%d7%94%d7%9e%d7%a8%d7%97%d7%91-%d7%94%d7%a6%d7%99%d7%91%d7%95%d7%a8%d7%99/
If the service becomes fully voluntary (with the current pay), you won't have enough soldiers for the quota.
I'm not saying that. All I'm saying is that just as there is a possibility of exemption from service on the basis of a religious clause for women, so this clause can be expanded to include men as well. A man will declare that military service is contrary to his religious beliefs and will be exempt from conscription. This is true both from the principle of equality between men and women and from the lack of desire for religious coercion. Note that despite the exemption clause for women, most women enlist, and in the case of men, most men, in my opinion, will enlist, including the Haredim. Right now, the Haredim are using Torah study in yeshiva as an excuse. If they have to declare outright that it is contrary to their religion, I don't know what percentage will actually declare it and what percentage will accept Rabbi Michi's claim that he is obligated to enlist.
Here is a link to a practical proposal by Rabbi Stav on the matter:
https://www.inn.co.il/news/631104
In short, you can impose whatever you want on secular people - the army, taxes, public transportation on Shabbat, Passover leaven, and funding for Haredim.
Religious citizens, on the other hand, will choose what they want - want to serve? want to pay taxes? want to stop at a red light?
Even secularists cannot force everything. One can appeal to this or that individual, but if all secularists oppose a certain policy, they will block it. We saw this just a year ago with the legal reform. Even in the matter of public transportation on Shabbat, when secularists were interested in it, they achieved it through local government. Most secularists support conscription and the conscription law. Secular women demonstrate this perfectly. Ostensibly, they can obtain an exemption from conscription (see the entry from May Golan) and yet they avoid it.
Coercion helps an individual adhere to his own belief system, but in the long run it is no substitute for choice.
In the S”D’ Bison P”D
To Gabriel – Hello,
The cancellation of compulsory conscription will not leave us without fighters, but rather – will increase their number in quantity and quality. The people of Israel love to volunteer, especially for the purpose of ‘Ezrat Israel in Need’.
To strengthen the motivation to enlist in combat units – fighters can also be given material encouragement. For example: ‘week-week-week’ vacations (why only for cooks?) and funding for higher education. For example, a fighter who serves three years ‘week-week-week’ – will both serve significant combat service and will also be ‘halfway’ to an academic degree.
Combat service combined with studies will also help solve the problem of mental exhaustion experienced by the discharged soldier, who often needs a months-long trip abroad to "disassemble". IDF soldiers do not serve in remote areas but relatively "close to home" and there is no reason why their regular service should not be combined with studies.
Such an arrangement, which is appropriate for the entire population, will also allow a religious or Haredi soldier to choose Torah studies in a yeshiva in combination with military service, and if military service is adapted to the conditions of strict observance of the commandments, the motivation will increase for those who are suitable to serve in a significant service. A Haredi who volunteers for "Ichud Hatzalah" and so on will He can also volunteer for combat roles, and the infrastructure exists even today in Haredi Hesder yeshivot and in units such as Tomer and Chatz, etc.
And the sages have already said: A little is better on purpose than many without intention.
With blessings, Fishel
The IDF's problem in Simcha was not a shortage of SDK, but rather the failure to utilize the SDK due to a fixed perception that the enemy would not attack. If the existing forces were prepared, they could provide an adequate response to the attackers.
Regarding ‘Ezrat Yisrael Mid Tzur’ Now–
It is surprising that the leaders of the fighters for ’Haredi conscription now’ such as Lapid and Gantz (who celebrated his 64th birthday yesterday) – are the ones who claim that we should stop the fighting and go for a political settlement in which security in Gaza will be handed over to an inter-Arab force.
I think that Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, the PA of Jordan and Egypt – will manage without mass conscription of yeshiva students 🙂
With greetings, Fishel
And regarding the ‘Levi Tribe’ – please refer to Rabbi Yigal Kaminetzky's article on the ‘Torah and Land Institute’ website.
Best regards, Fish”l
The solution to increasing Haredi integration in the security sector could be to strengthen the existing beginnings of Haredi units within the army and security forces, such as Tomer in Givati, Arrow in the Paratroopers and Netzah Yehuda in the Kfir Brigade, Shahar in the Air Force, Haredi Hesder Yeshivats, and the Haredi Integration Project in the Civilian National Service in the Shin Bet and the Mossad, which already exist today.
There is a plan devised by Major General Yehuda Fox (a graduate of the ‘Beit Talmud’ 🙂 to recruit Haredim for security roles in localities, so that soldiers will compete for more military missions.
And of course, the ‘Central Arrangement’ and Phase B’ frameworks, which allow integration into reserve service for those who studied in a yeshiva for many years – can also be a suitable solution for both massive study and for going to ’Ezrat Yisrael Mid Tzer’ when necessary. This is the model proposed by Herzia Kook and Rakh”d Halevi for the integration of Torah and the army.
And usually when integration processes are done out of appreciation and respect – they have a chance of succeeding, because there is also an internal need of the Haredi public. Both for those who are unable to study Torah every day and for those who, after many years of study, want to go out to earn a living.
On the other hand, disdain and arrogance and steps to harm Torah scholars who study Torah with dedication only push Haredim out of the integration frameworks.
With greetings, Fishel
Another model can be proposed, such as the Haredi neighborhoods in northern Jerusalem, which were established in the school areas of northern Jerusalem before the Six-Day War, where only Haredim agreed to live.
Even in our time, it is possible that young Haredi couples will go to the Negev and Galilee regions that many others would shy away from. In those Haredi neighborhoods, guards and standby forces from the local residents who will receive basic training from the army (as is done today following the events of Samach).
Patience and goodwill – They will benefit both the Haredi housing crisis and the need to strengthen the school districts.
In paragraph 5, line 2
… Only keep away Haredim…
For an ultra-Orthodox brigade that is being established, see the article “A Brigade with Faith” (Bisheva, 2017).
Best regards, Fishel
More about the ‘Haredi Brigade’ program in Shaul Amsterdamsky's interview with Rabbi David Leibel, ‘the Rabbi who will recruit thousands of Haredim’.
Best regards, Fish”l
And perhaps the solution lies in the mobilization of Haredim in units of religious Zionists.
The inherent problem of the Haredi units described by Rabbi Leibel is that those who arrive there already have some kind of "outward look", and in many cases have gone through a "fall" or a "crisis".
It is precisely the encounter with yeshiva students from religious Zionism, whose tendency is to strengthen their Torah side, that may bring back a young Haredi who is in a "crisis" from a Torah perspective, and put him back on the path of Torah ascension and strengthening.
Best regards, Fishel
Experts like me, such as Dr. Yagil Henkin, have shown that a volunteer/professional army is not feasible in Israel.
I definitely understand you
And practically it is certainly true, there is no point in soldiers who were forcibly recruited.
But in the event that a certain person cannot fulfill his duty, then he will not receive a right either.
In my opinion, there should be a law that those who do not enlist will lose certain civil rights
For example, voting, tax credits, tax increases, etc.
But not specifically Haredim, there should be no reference to the sector at all, every Israeli citizen
Not only them
both the ultra-Orthodox and the Arabs
So what?
I'm ready to fight about it, it doesn't make sense for some people to fulfill their obligations and others not
Imagine there would be a group that doesn't pay taxes, and they would threaten to burn down the streets if they weren't given rights because of it
I was also ready to fight about it. Until about 10 years ago, when Yair Lapid refused to vote for the nation-state law and dissolved a government that would have granted this exact justice. Then I realized that even the center - which is actually a left in disguise - is not interested in any justice and the principle of equality (progressive equality) is more important to them than any justice, no matter what their religion is, and the Jewish people are generally a concept that is assigned to them. So welcome to our world. The imagination you asked me to imagine is exactly the reality in which we live and I will no longer trust anyone who will talk to me about justice - this is exactly what Yair Lapid declared to everyone and thus sold himself out. And I suspect you are no different from him. Even though I don't know you - If you don't fear God, I'm pretty sure that for the sake of power you'll forget about the existence of justice... and I have a feeling that the Haredim were the first to understand all of this many, many years ago.
In short, your argument is that because you believed Lapid and were disappointed (what made you believe that a former camp reporter cares so much about justice regarding the military burden?!) then every injustice related to conscription should remain. I haven't given up yet.
I didn't vote for Lapid in those elections, but for Bennett. But I had an expectation that the issue of the Arabs and the Haredim would be resolved in the same government. Lapid prevented that and that was it. I had no expectation regarding any military burden, but only simple justice. I don't want to recruit Haredim at all, I just don't want to give them privileges and that's it. Justice didn't interest him, but his religion of equality. And everything else is interested in power and that's it. Even Bennett (and later he turned out to be the greatest crook in politics for generations). I gave up because I understood that there is a hierarchy even in handling matters of justice and that major injustices need to be resolved before smaller injustices. The dictatorship in the guise of leftist state officials, in the High Court, the security system, government ministries, the Attorney General's Office and the rest of the left's animals, is a injustice a thousand times greater than the story of the Haredim (and the treatment of the Arabs comes before them). Any reference to the Haredim before that is like being righteous in a cent and wicked in a dollar. I will gladly join the Haredim to deal with this first.
In the 2nd of September, 2017,
To Y, greetings,
And for you, the effective way is not through fines and deprivation of rights, which do not stimulate motivation at all, but through creating positive incentives that encourage mobilization. And as I suggested, integrate combat service with studies. Even those who are not religious will be able to postpone their service until the end of their academic studies, and those who wish to integrate their military service with their studies will receive a scholarship from the army to finance their studies.
Best regards, Fishel
Rabbi Michael
You quoted Rabbi Elyashiv, do you know of any of the rabbi's descendants who enlisted? Do you know of any Shavniks whom the rabbi or one of his students ordered to enlist?
No, and it's pretty clear to me that it didn't happen.
Would you conclude from this that this entire argument was only for external purposes?
No. On the contrary, the non-recommendation is for internal purposes.
In the Bible, Shavuot was banned on the 1st of December
On the complex position of Torah scholars on the ‘Haredi Nachal’, see the articles: ‘Historical Exposure: The Support of the Great Men of Israel for the Haredi Nachal’, on the Kikar Hashabbat website (8th of Sivan 577’6); and in response: ‘Distortion of the Facts’ (ibid., 10th of Sivan’), and in the article: ‘The Haredi Nachal– The Details Are Revealed: Who Among the Great Men of Israel Supported and Who Opposed?’ (on the ‘Behadrei Haredim’ website, 8th of Sivan). Ya'u”sh.
Best regards, Fish”l
It should be noted, perhaps to reinforce the Rabbi's words, that soldiers who came from a more religious upbringing should be recruited because "since he will enter into the bonds of war, he will lean on the refuge of Israel and his Savior in time of trouble and know that he is waging war on the oneness of God." Perhaps infants who were raised among the Gentiles and do not understand why they are fighting, who did not get to learn the Shema of Israel and do not understand why they have this burden (and perhaps they would not have acted in this way if the Gilad Shalit case had been accepted from us), after all, every intelligent person understands that there is no point in recruiting infants into the army (as the secularists are called).
Miki Shalom
You write “It could in principle be argued that we are not in a situation where the army needs all the young men who enlist, and therefore the discussion we have had so far is irrelevant”.
But I don't understand that. After all, you yourself previously brought up the vision of the Chazon Ish who says that in a mitzvah war there is no priority even for the groom and the public can enlist whoever it wants. Even if there are enough soldiers
Can you explain this to me?
For some reason I missed the question. I'm not talking about a mitzvah war, but about a piku”n (and by the way, I'm not bound by the words of the prophet either).
Why are you obligated? And why would anyone be obligated to what you have to say?
No one is obligated to what I have to say. I'm probably no better than predicted.
Nonsense in tomato juice. The Haredi sector is not even aware of the nature of the challenge that global changes pose to Jewish society. The claim is not worthy of discussion beyond that.
Who needs them to be “aware” of something? Not in the Knesset, there is no need to direct. It is enough for them to do it. We are talking about 18 mandates against the cultural left.
What do they do and what does this have to do with progressives? Do they dodge the army to fight male bedfellows? Study Torah as a protest against trans people? Don't talk in the air. Tell us about the important contribution of the ultra-Orthodox sacrileges to the fight against progressives.
They are a broad public whose lifestyle is the antithesis of all the aspirations of the cultural left. In democratic countries (Israel is roughly such a country), this makes sense. And this public has anti-establishment tendencies, the state will not dictate to them what to do. There are situations in which this leads to very bad results (say, their behavior during the Corona pandemic), but in general I would say that their presence is positive. If they are drafted into the army en masse, will they maintain their aforementioned tendencies? It is likely that they will not.
If the price for their presence is righteous and ”moral” outbursts of rage from the Abrahamic Covenant – I bought it.
In short, as usual from the ultra-Orthodox propagandists: Abu Ali. They shout from the back of the camp that they are leading it and contributing to it. In reality, a small, closed society that cannot exist without outside help, whose spiritual world is as small as the budget that Gaza will soon have.
Friends, your learned arguments have been thoroughly understood. The erasure phase is approaching. You have been warned.
I could bring in the Amish for the war against modernity and progressivism. They are more devout than the Haredim in this area, and if the mitzvot and Torah are like tools in the hands of the one who keeps them, then I don't see a significant advantage in the spiritual realm either.
He is right. Just by their very existence they are a kind of wall against the progressive virus that is violently trying to take over the West. Just the fact that the right-wing public looks at them and says to itself, we are not alone. That in itself already stifles the moral and violent cries of progress.
Peace to His Honor
I wanted to know if it seemed logical to the rabbi to communicate on such an issue with an opaque, scholarly, bordering on autistic halachic ruling
This is a broad social phenomenon, full of challenges and moral and realistic questions, which absolutely cannot be resolved by a halachic ruling, no matter how well-reasoned, and that is not the point of the debate
By the way, as someone who has lived for long periods within Haredi society, I am sure you know that the excuses for divorce provided by Haredi society are not the issue, and this is about existential anxiety and a sense of mission, certainly not the indifference and indifference that you enjoy describing
We will see if you can also resolve the issue of LGBT and the gay community in a halachic article, for some reason it seems to me that there are places where you will also understand that scholarship is not the issue, and compassion also needs to speak up
Thank you for the compliments. I really blushed.
It's just a shame that you have a serious problem with reading comprehension. When I write a halachic ruling, I don't intend to solve any problem nor provide emotional therapy to anyone. I describe the halachic position on the issue, and now everyone can do with it what they want.
And as for your endearing descriptions of Haredi society, it's clear that you are a disciple of Reliy of Berdichev. But with my many sins and indifference, Hasidism has never spoken to me.
When I read it again, I really see that I should have been more careful with my language and your respect, and I apologize, it was in the heat of the moment
In essence, it is naive to call the letter cited above based on the article a purely dry halakhic ruling, and it is also naive to say that dry halakhic ruling in your view is the essence of everything (again, would such a letter and such a ruling have been issued against the LGBT community?)
And indeed, I do not think that the Haredi community is not in the category of “every person” that should be considered on merit
I am not judging the right of a person to send others to fight for him so that, God forbid, he will not come out of his bubble and can continue his life as usual.
By the way, if anything, then even if there was a halakhic ruling that exempted him from conscription, does that sound logical to you to ignore everyone else?
You are very, very patient with the Haredim, too patient.
I understand that for you, judging the merits is judging those who do good things…
You are all ignoring the main issue here, which is that it is debatable whether or not an ultra-Orthodox public is needed, but one thing is clear - if today the ultra-Orthodox public sends all its youth to yeshivas, it ceases to exist as a public
This is a sacrifice that it may or may not have to make, this is a dilemma that no public faces, and you are caught here in a Rambam”s trap, or portray them as a bunch of heartless, corrupt people who just want people to die for them
Obviously. Any gang of robbers, once you force them to obey the law or go to jail, will cease to exist. No wonder robbers must be pardoned.
To look at the Haredim as a gang of robbers is again a narrow-minded and evil eye, since we all know that no one decided to establish a parasitic gang, but rather these are people who live from a complete worldview of separation from the secular space and creating their own world, thinking that this is the correct response to the secularization that has appeared in recent centuries.
One of the moral prices involved in this is non-mobilization, and this is serious, and it should be discussed whether it is worth it, but to present as if there is no meaning to canceling their entire worldview is simply unfair.
He did not deny judging with justice because the act is bad, but because the people or the group are bad. They do not do deeds with you. Therefore, your argument is irrelevant
But he is not right, and neither are you. Judging with justice is not a religious obligation towards someone who does an act with you, but an obligation to correctly interpret actions. There is also no obligation to judge with justice when it is unreasonable. This is a common mistake in understanding the Mishnah. I have also written about this several times in the past. For example, in an article on Occam's Razor.
Again, to judge the group as fundamentally evil is an extremism that I don't know where you get it from, and as above,
And in my opinion, the correct interpretation of the actions of the Haredim is religious anxiety and existential anxiety, certainly not acts of evil and indifference as is easy and convenient to say
There's really no need to be careful with my honor, and my honor is not personal here. I've written more than once that I have no problem with harsh and cynical writing, as long as it's just a form to present arguments. But when there are no arguments, the problem is not the harshness but the lack of arguments. Therefore, there's little vulnerability and respect here. You're welcome to attack me as harshly as you want, as long as there are arguments in your words. But there are none here.
I understand, I do try to maintain the respect of my interlocutors, and I will try to do so even when I write to you (by the way, in the opening message I also tried to characterize the article and, God forbid, not the writer, and that also came across as rude and inappropriate in my opinion)
Rabbi Michi Shalom
After all, according to the halakhah, only kosher people are allowed to be appointed to all positions. And certainly, it is forbidden for those who desecrate the Sabbath to be appointed to any position whatsoever.
And apparently, an unemployed person is not a mahni.
Why then do you attribute halakhic significance to the government and its decisions?
If the appointment is not valid, then there is no government here and in any case, there is no dina demalchuta or taknat kahal
What a magnificent gibberish! So like this. Where do you get the prohibition of appointing Sabbath desecrators to all positions? And also to the best of the city? And where do you get the prohibition that their appointment is not beneficial? And didn’t Ahab have a king’s law? Regarding a non-servant, there are opinions in the Rambam that there is no such law. But it doesn’t matter because this rule is apparently not relevant to this case at all. Ahab will prove it. And after all, “they accepted the alijah” is useful for witnesses and judges. And beyond all this, why is the law of the kingdom even related to our issue? I explained that there is a fiqun here and there is an obligation to defend oneself, and this has nothing to do with the nature of the kingdom and its authority. This is not a war of commandments but fiqun.
As I understand it, this question is more related to column 629 than here. I am amazed at how people are exempted from military service in order to study Torah, and in the end this is what we receive? This is Torah and this is its reward? Or is the exemption so they can finally start learning something?
Regarding your question about the origin of the prohibition on appointing those who desecrate the Sabbath or those who lack the fear of God in general, see Rabbi Rambam, Laws of Kings, Chapter 1, Halacha 7: “And anyone who lacks the fear of God, even though he is very wise, is not to be appointed from among those appointed in Israel.” Similarly, it is written in Rama (Hoshen Mishpat, Laws of Evidence, Section 37, Section 22): “The good people of the community who are appointed to deal with the needs of many or individuals are like judges and are forbidden to seat among them someone who is disqualified from judging because of a crime.”
Regarding the non-worker, Maimonides writes (Laws of Sanhedrin, Chapter 2, Halacha 9): “A court of three, one of whom is a foreigner, is invalid”. It is clear from the Rambam” that even if they have already been appointed to serve as judges, it is still an invalid court. And it is clear that this is the case with all invalid cases, and as is indeed clear from Shavuot, page 30, page 2, and from the Rambam”s words, Laws of Sanhedrin, chapter 22, law 10 – “A judge who knows that his fellow is a robber or wicked person is forbidden to join with him” and hence the very appointment is of no use, but it is forbidden to sit with him in judgment.
From another place in the Rambam, we also see that if part of the court is invalid due to guilt, then there is no court at all, for the Rambam, Laws of the Sanhedrin, Chapter 2, Halacha 14, writes: “And it is forbidden for a wise man to sit in judgment until he knows with whom he is sitting, lest he join with people who are not honest and find a conspiracy of traitors, not in the court at all.”
And since the poskim that I mentioned have already written that the good men of the city are like the court, it is clear that even in retrospect their actions have no binding force and they are not in the court at all.
Therefore, in fact, there is no reason to consider the government and the municipality and their branches as the seven good men of the city or as the public order as long as people who do not fear God sit there.
See on this subject my article on appointing a foreigner to power. In my opinion there is no prohibition in this, especially in our time, except in the case of a judge and a committee. And even in them there is a law that says, “He accepted him,” and therefore acceptance is beneficial. And I have already mentioned to you Ahab and the rest of the kings of Israel who had a king’s law. And what is forbidden for a judge to join a wicked person is that he did not accept him. In your opinion, what is not beneficial is the appointment depending on the dispute between Abaye and Raba, whether he is a servant or not? Are you serious?
In short, empty chatter and the like.
If it is shown that the economic and security situation will allow not all the people to enlist, is there any interest in making it easier for the serving public or is it better that we study Torah and not the Tah?
Is there any interest in participating in the war?
From what I understand, this is the main argument of the Haredim
Everyone should take part in the military effort. There is no such thing as a situation where the situation allows not to mobilize everyone. What is the line that is not needed? 100 reserve days a year? 50? 200? An undefined question. Beyond that, if soldiers are not needed, then shorten everyone's service or create a professional army or dilute mobilization across all populations.
My intention is to ask what the halakhic source is for equality in burden. The current situation is beyond helping with the burden but rather a matter of life and death, because we need a large army and to reduce the reserve burden that is seriously harming the economy, and this is also necessary for the TNA. But is there an obligation only to participate in order to make it easier for the public who serve? Reducing the years of service is an obligation that is not a matter of life and death, but rather an improvement in life?
There is no difference between helping with the burden and helping with the burden. Partnership is not good for those who bear the burden in order to be righteous. The duty to serve is on everyone. If you and I owe money to someone, you should pay like me, not out of a sense of equality in the burden, but because the debt is ours. If we are all in danger, we should all fight. This whole perspective is skewed (although typical of the Haredim, unfortunately).
If this is viewed as a tax, what if he really wants to go abroad and the state doesn't let him?
And is it correct to use an argument such as this, which is lacking in the statement "I would go abroad?"
In general, according to the Haredim's view, is it indeed a bad thing? Is there an exemption from the tax because the tax,
(This is about the zealots who don't enjoy the army, as for the non-zealous, it depends on previous questions). Thank you.
Why doesn't the state let him? Let him leave. As long as he's here, all his obligations apply to him.
There is no exemption from financial or any other obligation because of Shamad's shattered arguments, even if there was some truth to them. You can't not pay a debt to someone because you're afraid of Shamad. That's your problem, not his. I don't see any connection to Znozel”H.
In general, I'm pretty tired of dealing with these haredi nonsense arguments. See column 609. I think the stupidity has been demonstrated enough in the questions here on the site. We've had enough.
There is another question here, whether in democratic conduct it is permissible to be blackmailed, meaning that the discussion about conscription is with the state and not with the army, and if so, in the current form of state leadership, why shouldn't everyone be blackmailed according to their priorities.
I assume you mean corrupted (and not mutilated). See the end of my previous answer.
https://www.inn.co.il/news/644673
We do not build on Torah with Magna and Mitzla.
Hello, my name is Yitzhak, a yeshiva student of military age, and I am ready to die rather than enlist.
Yes, you heard me right, I have a value that is even more important to me than life itself, and that is to remain faithful to Hashem and His Torah.
I will not do what the state tells me to do, nor what Rabbi Michael tells me, I will only do what the Creator of the world commands me, whose entire role in the world is to fulfill His will.
I really want to enlist in the army, to protect my brothers, to protect the country. But I have a value above all else - the Torah.
All that remains is to find out what the Torah thinks about the matter.
1. As things stand today, it is clear that the Torah would prohibit serving in the IDF in its current form, because if a religious Jew were to chew gum, he would have to make sure that it had gelatin from kosher fish, flavorings and fragrances from plants, the provision of donations and tithes, cooking for Israel, and so on and so forth. It is simply impossible to enter an entire non-religious [or compromise religious] establishment run by such people and manage to observe the Torah. Therefore, it is certain that the only possibility of recruiting Haredim will be through extensive changes in the entire field of kashrut / Sabbath observance / girls / prayers / soldiers' oath-taking, etc.
2. Regarding the principle of service in the army over Torah study, the Torah encourages wars of command and permission, as explained in detail in the article above, but of course they will have to act solely according to a court that will decide how many soldiers are needed and how many can stay to study, and not before simultaneously removing a son-in-law from his marriage and the like for fighting.
3. Those who decide on any issue related to Haredi soldiers will have to be a Torah court. For example, according to the Torah, it is not clear that a soldier is allowed to fight in Gaza when there is even a very remote danger to the hostages who are there, or vice versa, it is possible that there is no permission not to wipe out Gaza, including the hostages and including the civilians, in order to bring about a situation where there will be no threat to any Jew in the country. For every task, it is necessary to consult the Torah, this is not a joke, these are questions of the law of souls.
4. There are laws on how one should go to the army, and going to war without the anointing of the ‘Kohen HaMoshiach’, for example, is abrogation of a positive commandment. And also the obligation to blow trumpets / the prohibition of carrying weapons for girls / the return of the ’fearful and meek in heart’ and others, and more.
There may be those who oppose conscription into the IDF as a body that does not observe the Torah as a whole, or because of postponing the end or provoking the nations of the world, and the like.
Indeed, these issues should be approached not as a matter of opinion but as a halakhic matter, and conducted according to a halakhic ruling from a court of law.
Of course, all of this matter should be approached in a substantive and not superficial manner. And most of the claims about the Haredim are shallow and superficial claims, such as “Why are there no funerals in Bnei Brak” and ”Why would a Haredi's mother sleep better at night”, which is a question of what should be done, and if what should be done is to stay and study Torah, then what's the point of going to take the risk, you can jump off the roof at home.
And on the other side there are claims that are not even nonsense, such as “The Haredim volunteer with Yad Sara Ezer M'Zion and Zak”a”, which certainly does not come close to military service [did you ever think that the Haredim would serve in the army and the Chalonim would volunteer with Ezer M'Zion].
And of course we must remember that those who represent the Haredi public are certainly not broadcasters and politicians who were expelled from yeshivas before they even entered them.
And it should be noted that the public will not cooperate with those who want to recruit them just for their political status or their hatred of the Haredim, who in this case took a ride on the IDF draft [while up until six months ago, they encouraged reluctance...]
Hello Yitzhak.
You are very determined and it is obvious that you are sure of your path. The question is whether you are also willing to listen. On the other hand, I will try to address your claims in a nutshell (although I have already addressed all of them).
1. Dedication is measured against actual challenges and not in pompous declarations. The question of whether you are willing to die and not enlist will be tested when you stand in front of a gun barrel and not in front of a keyboard in a democratic country that does nothing for you anyway (except to fund you). So allow me not to be impressed by the determination and dedication in your words.
2. No one asked you to do what Michael Avraham says. What I wrote is, to the best of my understanding, the opinion of the Torah and the Halacha, and therefore my expectation of you to enlist is because the Halacha and morality say so and not because I wrote it. If you disagree with my claims, it is completely legitimate, and you must base this on claims on the merits and not on empty and irrelevant declarations of rebellion and dedication.
3. Your factual claims are of course baseless. For two main reasons:
A. Those who go to war can eat even truly forbidden foods, so of course they are allowed gelatin with rabbinical kosher. And the same goes for other imaginary prohibitions that come to mind.
But even if I were wrong here, there is another problem:
B. The duty to prepare the army so that Haredim can serve in it falls on you and not on me. You are part of the state and the duty to serve is on all of us. If you have special demands, respect them and see to their implementation. Today, the government includes all the Haredi parties. And the savages from your group who do not accept them as representatives and prefer to scream about their readiness to die on the keyboard, respect them and take care of all this yourself. You don't lift a finger to make this happen, and assume that it is our job to roll out the red carpet for you in Bakum, because you are doing us a favor by enlisting. This is completely absurd, of course.
4. I will not refer here to the collection of fools who lead the Didkhon cult, whom you vainly appoint here to lead us in the war and make decisions for all of us. That is really a different matter. I would suggest that they first be weaned from suckers and then we can talk.
At least half of the people, including the security establishment, are eager to stop the war right now, if all the kidnapped people return. There is no war. Nothing. So what kind of ‘mitzvah war’ are you talking about?
If Hamas is ready for a deal right now, the war is over.
Is this a ‘mitzvah war’ or populism?
Who talked about a mandatory war? Do you bother to read before you respond?
As for your assumptions, what the majority of the people want doesn't really matter, and it's also not true that this is the data (depending on how and what you ask). And the same goes for security officials, first of all it depends on how and who you count and beyond that it's not at all certain that they are the ones who determine and that their position is indeed correct.
To distinguish myself from Shmuel (a) above, I will state that I am Shmuel (b) the Yeshivah Scientist from the toilets
Education: Torah scholar (yeshiva graduate) | Scientific training: in the toilets | Result: complete mastery of all areas and branches of science (odorless, maintains a logical, Torah-rational environment, saturated with depth and scientific intelligence).
I will not address your argument since I did not read the other responders first as I do in the Holy Scriptures, therefore I will divide my response into two and now I will only point out in a nutshell “two errors in the Mishnah” In your article, one is Torah, and the other is factual.
The Torah: What you thought was amusing was that the Rambam at the end of the laws of Shemita and Yuval are legends and that one does not learn halakha from the Haggadah (I am used to hearing this almost always from the rabbis of TikTok, and WhatsApp, Facebook, and Instagram, Telegram, and Tinder) but what will I do when I see that the Mashav quotes this Rambam as halakha (and when there is a dispute between these rabbis and the Mashav, it would be a bit of a pathetic attempt to convince the Haredi that the halakha is the same as them)
The Factual: What you wrote that a law that would exempt an entire public is acceptable to you, but now it is also illegal, you forgot only one small thing that those who canceled, will cancel, in their empty words, the law, are they not bullies, desecrators of Shabbat in public, and those who commit blasphemy, and those who remember the bed, eaters of Carnage and desolation, which terrorize the public in the High Court, as is well known, and how is it that the application of the constitutional arrangement of the Torah, its art, fell only because of their fear of their lives and their teachers? Maybe there is a law of violence and robbery for this? {As the Maimonides said regarding a coin issued by a king of this style} Again, as stated, I did not come here to argue with the thesis itself and the rest of your words, before I read all the responses, but to conclude, just a day ago, the author of "Hilkut Yosef" Shalit addressed this matter (I would be happy if you managed to recruit rabbis of this stature to join the call, because then the picture would have been completely different)
If you are already “wrong about something” We are dealing with a very well-known gemara (it also seems like a legend, but neither I nor Miki are the teachers of the generation of ultra-Orthodox halacha, what to do in practice, so for me it is enough to show this narrative of Torah magna and mitzla, and not only about the learner himself, as Miki understands, but also about the soldiers fighting on the front lines at the same time) that supports the narrative of the ultra-Orthodox on the one hand and the narrative of the religious on the other, and usually each side highlights the side that supports its narrative and omits to bring the narrative that supports the other side, while Miki chose to ignore it completely, or I omitted it from it. This gemara, Tractate Sanhedrin {Matt.} Rabbi Abba bar Kahana said: If it were not for David, Yoav would not have waged war, and if it were not for Yoav, David would not have engaged in Torah, and Rashi interpreted there that if David had engaged in Torah, Yoav would not have waged war, because it was David's merit through studying Torah that made Yoav successful. In his war, why didn't you address this gemara, Miki? { By the way, also regarding the Midrash of the Legend of the Eleventh, I didn't really understand his excuses. This war was commanded by the mouth of the hero, and God spoke to Moses, saying, "We will avenge the children of Israel on the Midianites." And it is explained in the Torah how Moses fulfilled this commandment? It is written, "Take from among you men an army of a thousand men, and you shall send them to the army, and they shall deliver a thousand men from the thousands of Israel." And he said, "Twelve thousand are the pioneers of the army who went to battle, twelve thousand guard their weapons, meaning this is the rear, and twelve thousand for prayer." Black on white (is it not a problem for a mother to have white under black) is explained here. How do you build a war formation? And do you fulfill the above commandment? A fighting force, a rear guard force, and a prayer force (and indeed, why is it written only prayer? And not Torah? And how did Rabbi Eliashib (Kovets Teshuvot, Part 3, Sign 5) deduce from this that from now on, even today, we are at war, (said the author of the War of Attrition in 7721) and the danger is great, didn't they have to mobilize ten times more for each soldier to pray and engage in Torah, which the Torah protects and heals, and in the desert, which was a generation of knowledge, they did not study or pray, but there was a need to strengthen, did we strengthen the engagement in Torah, and who knows if we can say that our hands did not shed this blood. So and so on.)
The rabbi did not answer the above-mentioned issue of life protection... If it is possible to close off Gaza, water, electricity, aid, and for foreign considerations they act differently... If the one who gives the order to enter is Dan Halutz or Ehud Olmert, does he also enter?
Dear Mikhi,
This (second) response is unusual, but it comes from a sincere and respectful place. It does not concern the specific post about the draft, but rather a general pattern that appears in some of your columns – especially those that concern politics, society, and religion.
In the field of logical and scientific thinking – you are one of the brightest, perhaps even the best in the Middle East. But when it comes to political and practical spaces, it sometimes seems like you are applying the same rigorous analytics – to a reality that uses completely different rules. Reality, what can be done, does not always respond to rational diagrams.
You said in one of the interviews (regarding the establishment of the third path) that you may consider entering politics in the future. So, it is important for me to say this right now: in this arena, analytical talent is not only not enough – sometimes it is even a disadvantage. I have seen quite a few brilliant academics – with degrees, books and reputations – who entered the political field and got swallowed up in it. Not because they lacked intelligence, but because they lacked understanding of the intuitions of power, populism, manipulation, and the human weaknesses that run systems.
In other words: there are moments when you sound like a scholar in the Matrix – arguing from within the pixel. It is sharp, but disconnected from the full screen. And maybe it is time to stop, look in the mirror and ask: I may be right in every individual analysis – but am missing the big picture?
To illustrate, I am attaching a link to a short video on the subject of conscription, which shows the real, public, conscious and political complexity – of what you are analyzing through a philosophical prism. What you write about conscription – is well-formulated, subtle, and well-structured. But note: a simple man from the people, not a doctor, not a rabbi, recently uploaded a video that is all about sober emotion, common sense, and a deep understanding of social reality – one that you, with all your genius, simply missed.
Here is the link to the video – I recommend you watch it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rltZmRym8vg
There is a chance that when you watch it, something will happen inside. Maybe you will even stand in front of the mirror for a moment, pray, and say to yourself:
“I analyzed every moral, Torah, and ethical point – but somehow I didn't see that I was a little… naive.”
Maybe you won't write this publicly (I give it a 10% chance), but maybe, maybe – admit it to yourself (I bet on 50%).
With sincere but uncompromising respect,
Shmuel – The Yeshiva Scientist from the Toilets
First, about your general comment. I know very well and I even wrote this, that the world does not operate according to logic and thinking. About Da Ka Bekhina. One of my goals is to try and contribute to ensuring that it does operate logically. If you think it is impossible to criticize an illogical or immoral phenomenon just because people have passions, then we really have nothing to talk about. Accepting stupid and immoral behavior just because that is how our psychology is structured is a scandal, and it is the problem. You won't believe it, but I also have such passions and feelings, but I am trying to overcome them. Therefore, contrary to what you think, I understand people's behavior very well, I am just not willing to accept this foolishness.
As for my political plans, don't worry. Although you are not right in your assessment, I have no intention of entering politics. I was talking about the possibility of the third path entering, not about my personal entry.
As for the video, I watched it with great attention. In my opinion, it is a particularly outrageous example of Haredi lies. One of the characteristics of a good liar is relying on correct facts (I haven't checked, but for the sake of discussion I assume they are correct. I'm betting not all of them) and distorting the conclusions. You brought a few carefully chosen examples (preferably with heartbreaking pictures) and drew general conclusions.
It is known that all the Haredim really wanted to enlist. They were stopped by force. They also wanted to establish a state, and they just wouldn't let them. They established a Zionist movement, but the secularists took over it.
When you bring a wretched and corrupt demagogue liar like Eichler who has never uttered a word of truth from his mouth as evidence of anything, you've lost me here. When you make claims that all the Haredim enlisted, you've lost me. When you make claims that when the army is run properly, everyone will enlist, you've lost me.
The argument that because of the past they don't enlist even today, when they are in power and don't lift a finger to change the situation (now it's already in their hands), is foolishness. The argument that the country is not democratic is a despicable lie. How exactly would the Haredim be appointed to all the senior positions when there is no one suitable to be a high-ranking officer, no one with a scientific education. Very few with a legal education, probably until a few years ago. So who exactly could they appoint? Arresting religious officers is history whose time has passed. Hanging in disgrace today is like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a technique that serves the Haredim well. It's a shame he didn't bring the children of Tehran and cutting off sideburns.
Photos of this or that person who hates Haredim, or Yair Lapid talking about the Haredim stealing, and completely aside. That's what they've been doing for years. Seeing anti-Semitism in this just means I'm dealing with a real fool. Well, someone who rejects logic as an ideology (and learns science in the bathroom), maybe that's what we can expect from him.
In short, it's really insulting to comment on such a ridiculous video. If this represents the Haredi consciousness, and I think it is indeed true, this is the most scathing indictment of it in its entirety. Much more so than any of my own articles. This is a cult of babies who have been captured by their own hands. This captivity causes good and intelligent people to behave like the last of the stupid and evil, and all this with a complete sense of justice, and all the while engaging in shocking parasitism and intensive theft of everything that moves, and using others as protectors of life and breadwinners against their will. I can only rebuke you: Shame on you. It seems you have more to do in the bathroom.
Response to those who are still hesitating whether to watch the video:
When the logician philosopher responds like this:
“It is really insulting to refer to such a ridiculous video. If this represents the Haredi consciousness, and I think it is indeed true – this is the most severe indictment against it. Much more than all my own articles.”
So maybe, just maybe – this is the moment when it is worth seeing what made him jump so much.
To the video that made Miki kick his own logic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rltZmRym8vg
Look, this is already bordering on trolling or extreme stupidity. Although, as mentioned, I have no expectations from someone who rejects logic as an ideology. When you talk about an internal logical contradiction in my words (which was not and will not be created), it shows that you are not just describing others' denial of logic, a kind of human weakness. Rather, you yourself adopt this foolish approach.
I debated whether to delete, but I have an objection to any censorship that is not necessary. But you are definitely on the border. Even repeating the link to this demagogic stupidity again constitutes trolling. The link already appears in your message above. It is almost promotion on the Internet. You are really on the edge.
It seems to me that quite some time has passed since the video that received your brief response was published – “ridiculous” – and now, when it is possible to discuss calmly again and not under the storm of the moment, I offer a look (including another link to another video), from the most difficult arena in Israel, which may very well surprise you too.
Who knows how difficult it really is to “win” in a debate – and certainly in a format like the “Head to Head” podcast, in which you participated twice against Aviv Franco. Even you wrote later in a post that the impression is that each side tends to think that it has won, and that real persuasion almost never occurs – and certainly not towards the side that is being rubbed in front of you. This is natural. It is almost an axiom in this arena, unfortunately.
But what would you say if in this arena, in this format, and on the most charged issue – the mobilization of the Haredim, for which we have gathered here – a completely anonymous speaker appeared: not a publicist, not a public speaker, not the owner of a Torah book or an academic degree. I bless you. Nothing more – nothing less. Straight from the standard and the holy atmosphere of the Beit Midrash, to the most violent and challenging boxing arena in the media
And he – the same one that you wrote in your last response with disdain for Galani, generalizing under “He has no scientific education, is not suitable to be a senior officer, etc.,” – And he succeeded, both in content and style, in leading a conversation in which his interlocutor (the scholar from the secular side) not only failed to undermine him, but even thanked him several times for the refinements he had made to him, and at a certain point even sounded almost as if he was beginning to retreat (where many good people, including you who, as mentioned, came from a place of scientific education, etc., etc., have failed).
No less impressive was the conclusion of the moderator, Eyal of our acquaintances: he defined this debate as “the best he had had since the program was established”, and emphasized how the speaker, with his pleasant language and clarity, succeeded not only in presenting a logical line but also in positively influencing the level of the entire discourse.
I suppose at this point you could choose to say that the arguments were wrong (as is the case with the sacred), or that the secular side's arguments were weak (even though they weren't), or simply that this is an extreme case of sporadic, one-time divine intervention that won't happen again, but you'll have to admit: this is an interesting crack in your thesis. And ignoring it will only weaken your argument.
Feel free to watch for yourself – here's the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsbwMQpnOTE
I'd love to hear your impressions after watching. And this is an opportunity to see if you're really open – even if the answer isn't always convenient.
I am seriously considering not adding a response at this stage, not out of lack of an answer – but precisely because calculated silence sometimes speaks powerfully.
It seems to me that the discussion has already begun to slide from the plane of principle to emotional reactions, and this is where logic – for all its virtues – weakens in the face of the forces of the heart.
You have assumed a very harsh response for an entire public, and perhaps now is the time to let time and silence reveal things to the eyes of everyone who reads.
Thanks for the comment, just to be clear – I definitely use the internet but it is filtered at the highest level (Netfree), so any help from imaginary algorithms is blocked for me almost completely if at all, I hope you won’t accuse me of the Holy Spirit and hidden magical powers
When you can’t deal with content – suddenly the writing style becomes suspicious. {I’m thinking to myself, maybe this is actually a compliment to my writing style}
And what about Michi’s own well-known principle? That you should address the claim, not the claim?
I suggest:
If the armchair is too low – raise it and see beyond its edges. And if you can’t address the claim, lay it down and relax, because “It is not fitting for a person to pay attention to someone who mocks or fools, but rather to turn his attention to the matters themselves” (Rambam, Teacher of the Confused).
And if after all this was a compliment disguised as an accusation – then may the blessing come for that too.
There is an ultra-Orthodox interviewee here whose words I recognized as parallel to yours that you may be interested in (I saw that it was a bit long, I ran out of patience). In any case, I haven't seen anyone ever ask you or address this, so I'll try to bring an elephant into the room right now, especially since you didn't think in your post that there was a connection and you probably didn't address it, but in my opinion, it's a topic related to nuclear ties. There may be those on the other side who even have a system in their war for conscription, this phase that they are planning and are currently hiding. But it's clear that after the first phase of conscription of ultra-Orthodox people (there may or may not be one), the phase will come that the secularists are salivating over, and that is to start holding demonstrations about the evasion of the scheming ultra-Orthodox girls. It's also clear to me that even if it were to be a supposedly closed taboo that there is nothing to talk about from a halakhic perspective and in every other respect, you, as someone who likes to burn sacred cows, will shatter the "myth" This one too (doesn't it take a prophet to predict this in advance?) What do you have to say in your defense, Miki? Why do you not only permit this but also demand it and say that it is obligatory “and even a veiled bride”
Please formulate your question in a reasonable manner. Without unnecessary introductions.
Here is a logical philosophical formulation that you will probably like
In your post about the recruitment of Haredim, I did not find a parallel discussion regarding the recruitment of religious girls (Haredi and rabbinical women)
Assuming that you see recruitment as a civic-moral obligation, and not just a tactical means,
What is your position on the application of this principle also in relation to religious girls?
And if there is a fundamental difference – I would love to know what it is: halakhic, moral or practical.
Furthermore, you yourself claim that this is now a matter of life protection – and if so, how can a complete exemption for Haredi women be justified, when at most there is a serious (and uncertain) concern about prohibitions related to modesty or incest?
After all, “no doubt excludes certainty”, and at the very least there was room for a principled discussion on the subject.
Women are not supposed to function like men in the military. If the need arises, of course they should also enlist. I am opposed to women in combat roles, even if they are not religious.
For those who want a well-organized work done on this whole subject of his Torah, his art, and the source of the saying that their Torah protects more than the fighting force, here is a link that addresses every angle on the subject, including the sayings of the greats of the generations, but also of the Mizrahi rabbis of their generations, starting of course with the accumulations of Rabbi Kook himself in his view of who contributes more to victory on the front: the learner or the fighter, or the fighter and learner https://www.toratemetfreeware.com/online/f_05107.html#HtmpReportNum0007_L2
What about the verse
“For the Lord your God walks in the midst of your camp to save you and to give your enemies before you, and your camp shall be holy, and he will not see any nakedness in you, and he will turn back from you”
We see that when there is nakedness in the camp of the Holy One, blessed be He, we do not find with us how it is possible to enlist in such an army
And that army also does not behave appropriately according to the laws of war.
If you had thought for ten seconds before sending the question, I'm sure you would have answered it yourself.
Even if you're right, then what do you suggest? Not to fight and let our enemies kill us? In the meantime, God may not be with us, but the army is doing a reasonable job of protecting us (of course, only thanks to Haredi Torah study). Without it, we would already be at sea.
Let's say a group of terrorists were to attack your house. The way to escape would be to call the army. Would you call? Or is it because God is not among them that there is no point in calling them?
But who? You would do that if you were in danger. Here, we are all in danger and there are others who die for you, so it's convenient for you to continue evading while quoting righteous and empty verses. This sloganeering is a Haredi disease (and not only), which is very worth getting rid of.
Incidentally, Haredi society is much sicker than general society. If there is anyone who distances God from us, it is the Haredi. And if we still succeed at some level, it is thanks to others and in spite of the Haredim.