A Look at Transgenderism and the Giv’at Shmuel Affair (Column 504)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
In recent years the phenomenon of transgender people has swelled and become a burning political issue. In general society a growing consensus is forming that they should be treated according to the way they define themselves. In response, the religious community (and also some strands of feminism, parts of which oppose recognizing trans people) sometimes radicalizes the discourse, as it senses an ideological and social threat posed by this phenomenon and by the legitimacy it is receiving (that dreadful “progressivism”).
In recent weeks the case of a girl[1] at a religious school in Giv’at Shmuel was publicized. She feels within herself the identity of a boy, and from the age of seven received permission from her parents and from the school to dress as a boy (kippah and tzitzit, etc.) and to conduct herself at school fully as a boy. For understandable reasons, the other parents and the children in the class and in general were not informed, and therefore it is no wonder that when this came to light an uproar ensued: demonstrations by parents and children, a boycott of the school, and a demand to remove the girl or to transfer the other children whose parents so wished. Tempers around the country have been running hot for quite a few days and have still not cooled (the customary time span for such affairs is usually about one day). Only yesterday I read that indeed they had returned to routine, but the girl wanders alone in the schoolyard (boycotted). On the other hand, informed sources told me that life truly has returned to normal. The opposing parents did what they did, but now life has returned to routine for the girl as well.
The State-Religious Education Administration (חמ”ד) in the Ministry of Education is very embarrassed by this affair, since it was closely involved and the decisions were made at its guidance and with its consent. Moreover, in recent days a letter by rabbis was publicized demanding that the phenomenon not be recognized and that the girl be forced to return to identifying and functioning as a girl. Public discourse is heating up, and of course demagoguery is in full swing. The media and various politicians are meddling in the affair and see in it an expression of religious rigidity and intolerance and their price. Many speak of demonstrations held on the back of a small (!) child without consideration for his feelings and distress.[2] I already mentioned heartbreaking descriptions that the child walks alone in the schoolyard while all his friends boycott him. On the other hand, the parents and those who share their view argue that a small (!) girl and her distress have been exploited here to advance progressive agendas covertly and without informing the parents, and afterwards everyone is required to capitulate so as not to hurt the girl. Needless to say, the use of the words “boy” or “girl” usually depends on the platform in which the piece is written. Each side in this debate presents the other in a very emotional way as wicked with problematic agendas (hidden or not), while completely ignoring the considerations in favor of the opposing position. Someone already said that the difference between an argument and a quarrel is that an argument revolves around ideas whereas a quarrel revolves around people.
As noted, this is a complex situation with nontrivial considerations on both sides, and conducting a simplistic debate in which each side sees only the considerations that lead to its own position is flawed and harmful. It is possible and appropriate to formulate a stance on complex issues when one sees the full range of considerations and takes into account the costs of every decision. In the end each of us arrives at a single bottom line—and that’s perfectly fine—but this is how better and more correct decisions are made, and the discourse also becomes more rational and sane. Well, this is indeed a halakhah for the messianic era, but that’s exactly why we’re here. Before I get into the thick of it, I’ll add a note about the halakhic policy of decisors (poskim).
A brief look at esoteric halakhic policy
Among the signatories to the aforementioned letter is Rabbi Yaakov Ariel. And yet, according to the Ministry of Education he was the rabbinic authority consulted, and the previous decisions were made with his knowledge and under his guidance. Parenthetically I wonder, irrespective of my stance on this issue itself, who appointed him to be the rabbi of the State-Religious system? Why did they consult specifically with him? Remember that he is among the “senior rabbis of Religious Zionism,” who for some reason take upon themselves the crown of leadership of the entire non-Haredi public (see Column 500 and more).
In any case, for the sake of fairness it is important to note that there is not necessarily a frontal contradiction between the rabbi’s views before and after. It is possible that as long as he thought it could be kept secret and that it was a one-off case, he was willing to permit such conduct and even recommend it; but after it came into the public domain and could serve as a precedent, he holds that it is forbidden to continue to grant it legitimacy. So there is not necessarily a contradiction in his positions, and it is not necessarily dishonest. Still, the publication is rather embarrassing.
Here I only wished to comment on the policy of esoteric rulings—that is, situations in which certain instructions are given only in private and to individuals, while in public the same decisor gives the opposite instructions to the community. Sometimes this is done out of fear and lack of integrity (an unwillingness to stand behind an innovative ruling),[3] and then it is certainly reprehensible. But beyond that there is a problem here. One can perhaps accept the logic of such a policy in itself, but at the end of the day its costs are heavy and therefore in my opinion one should not adopt it. In the end everything is revealed, especially in the internet age and the flood of information, and therefore it is preferable to act transparently despite the opposite costs. One should also distinguish between hiding facts (as in this case) and hiding halakhic positions (which apparently also happened here). Concealing facts can be legitimate, since the girl need not suffer from our halakhic policy. But concealing halakhic positions is problematic—both because it will be revealed, and because if a person has a halakhic position he should stand behind it. Moreover, concealment does not allow such a position to be discussed and argued for and against. Furthermore, if one adopts a policy of concealment, a situation is created in which nothing can be trusted. One cannot know, regarding any ruling by any decisor, whether he is practicing an esoteric policy or whether this is truly his opinion.
An analogy is the well-known ruling of the Magen Avraham, which I have cited here more than once (see for example Columns 21, 63, 304, 362, 386 and others), to say things in the name of a great person so that people will accept them from him. I explained there well the logic of this permission, but it is important to note that practically, this permission carries a heavy price and should not be used (indeed, it should not have been granted at all, because even if one does not use the permission, its very existence undermines trust). If indeed such a policy is accepted, one cannot believe any testimony about any halakhic ruling by any decisor. This is a heavy price—and in my view it precludes using this permission. Incidentally, it may be that the Talmud and the Magen Avraham themselves did not intend to instruct us to actually do this in practice but only ruled that, in principle, such an action is not forbidden.
In the previous column I presented a dispute between Rav and Shmuel about whether it is permissible to cause someone to stumble in a matter that the one causing the stumbling believes is permitted while the one being caused to stumble believes is forbidden, without telling the latter that this is the situation. In note 5 there, I pointed out that such a policy is very problematic even if it is permitted, since if the one being caused to stumble thinks it is forbidden to cause another to stumble in such a case (and that was the situation there), then by its nature he is not supposed to suspect that this is an act of entrapment and will not be sufficiently cautious; in such a case the entrapment is deeper and more severe. This is similar to what I am describing here.
Moderate queerness: the factual plane
In recent years the term “progressivism” has enjoyed a renaissance. It was conjured up from the dusty basements of the communist discourse of a century ago, and in the religious and conservative society it is of course a pejorative. The discourse around the trans phenomenon—and the Giv’at Shmuel case is no exception—is always accompanied by a debate about progressivism. Conservatives attribute support for this phenomenon to a (negative) progressive approach. Here I wish to explain why this attribution is somewhat hasty.
In Column 497 I explained that the basis for all this discourse is the distinction between sex and gender. A person’s sex is determined objectively by physiological and genetic criteria, but gender is something else that does not depend on sex. So on what does it depend? In that column I brought Matt Walsh’s brilliant critique of queerness. But it is important to understand that the queer conception he criticizes there is radical. It is a view that holds that there is no essential definition of “man” or “woman,” and therefore we must accept what a person says about themself without any possibility of critique. In this view, a person’s definition as a man, a woman, or whatever else is completely arbitrary, and the person’s declaration has a constitutive status with respect to it. If he perceives himself as a man, that is what determines that he is one, and similarly for a woman. This is not a matter of politeness or not wanting to hurt him; rather, because if he declares it, then he truly is a man. No wonder Walsh goes around the world in a red dress with two braids and seeks a definition for the term “woman”—that is, when a person says he feels like a woman, what exactly should he feel in order to say that? Needless to say, he does not find an answer. I explained that the crux of his claim is that in this radical conception, concepts like “man” or “woman” are empty—words that say nothing.
But this is not the only conception. There is a more moderate (old-fashioned) view, according to which these terms (sex and gender) do have objective meaning, yet they are different. According to moderate queerness, someone who belongs to the female gender is a person who possesses certain tendencies and abilities (those commonly attributed to women), and likewise for a man. Here the concepts “man” and “woman” are indeed defined and distinct, even if not sharply and precisely. One might perhaps propose definitions (or diagnoses) based on fulfilling several characteristics out of a given set, as is common in medical and psychiatric diagnostics. If a person possesses four out of the following set of traits: tends from childhood to play with dolls; does not like soccer and does not idolize athletes; is gentle; likes to wear dresses and put on makeup; is weak in the exact sciences; does not know how to back up a car, and the like—then he is probably a girl. And vice versa for a boy. This is a certain definition of male or female gender and, in this sense, it is different from the radical view that grants the person’s declaration a constitutive status. Moderate queers preserve the definitions of the concepts and do not regard them as empty. They simply claim that gender does not always align with sex. There is a dissonance now termed “gender dysphoria,” in which a person’s gender does not identify with their sex. This is a person whose sex is male but who feels as a woman gender-wise, or the reverse.
Some transgender people undergo sex-reassignment surgery to align sex with gender (apparently the ways to align gender to sex are more difficult, if they exist at all; here we are already in the realms of psychology or psychiatry), thus resolving their dysphoria. After surgery, ostensibly we have a match between sex and gender, but even that is not so simple, since the person’s chromosomal composition does not actually change. The question that arises in such a case is whether external signs determine sex or genetics does, and that question can remain. In any case, at least psychologically, such surgery is presumably supposed to do the job—that is, to resolve the person’s distress (though even about this there are claims that in many cases it does not really succeed)—but philosophically the discussion can remain as is.
To complete the LGBTQ picture, I note that beyond sex and gender there is also sexual orientation. The claim is that it too is independent of the first two (at least not absolutely; correlations certainly exist). That is, the gender map consists of at least three components: sex, gender, and sexual orientation. One might have physiological male sex, a gender identity as a woman, and an orientation either to men or to women. Thus, fascinating phenomena arise of men who became lesbian women and therefore prefer sexual partnership with women. In essence, originally they are straight men, and the equation here becomes more complex: a transgender lesbian is, in a certain sense, equivalent to a straight man. The difference between them is only in sex (at least if he has not had surgery), but they are identical in gender and sexual orientation. This is practically a model for group theory, and one could formulate various theorems about symmetry and permutations among the elements of the group. You can think through all the possible variations and you will discover that all of them exist. Reality surpasses all imagination.
What matters for our purposes is that, at the factual level, it is hard to deny the very existence of the phenomenon. One can argue whether its source is genetic or environmental (I think there is still no scientific conclusion on the matter), and it is very plausible that there are cultural influences and influences from the legitimacy granted to this dysphoria nowadays. But one cannot deny that, factually, the phenomenon surely exists. I note that ostensibly materialists should have greater difficulty accepting this fact, since for them physiology determines everything. But even with respect to the body’s physical data there is not always a correlation between the theoretical definition and its actual manifestations (the idea and its instantiations). Sometimes people are born with three arms, without half a leg, with six fingers, with a crooked ear, and so forth. The fact that we are all human does not mean there cannot be people who are born different in certain respects, physical or mental. So why should gender identity be rigid and necessarily match sex in all people?! From the point of view of one who is not a materialist (and religious people are usually not), such claims ought to be accepted more easily. There is no obstacle to tensions between our genetics and physiology and our mental dimensions (feelings, traits, and the like). Physiology and genetics do not necessarily determine everything, and it is certainly not true that genetics determines our mental dimension unequivocally. So why should gender identity be rigid in all people?!
The conclusion is that, factually, dissonances can certainly exist between a person’s gendered sense and their sex—and it is even likely that such dissonances exist. Their source may itself be genetic or physiological, and may also be cultural-environmental, or the result of choice, and more likely a combination of all these. In any case, denying the very existence of the phenomenon seems unreasonable.
On moderate queerness and progressivism: the value dimension
Those who fight against progressivism often do so because of the conceptual vacuum it expresses, induces, and promotes. Denial of facts and of values (postmodern narrativism) can lead to very problematic results—and of course is also untrue. No wonder such radical conceptions provoke antibodies, and many see them as a threat to our civilization (I too am an active participant in this struggle, though I would not define it in such apocalyptic terms).
But even someone who fights vigorously against the relativist progressivism I described need not necessarily fight against moderate queerness. As stated, it does not deny the existence of facts and values; it also does not deny the differences between men and women and the psychological and physiological facts. On the contrary, it proposes that we recognize the facts and not impose on them our desires and preconceptions. Moderate queerness points to an existing factual situation, which I described above, and merely proposes that we recognize it. In its view, a person’s testimony about themself does not have a constitutive status as in the radical conception. In its view, a person who declares that he is a man is worthy of such treatment not because the declaration constitutes his manhood. He is a man because those are his feelings, and that reflects his gender. The declaration has evidentiary status, not constitutive status. I believe his declaration that these are indeed his feelings, and of course one must also assume that feelings are the determining factor. But the very definition of gender as opposed to sex is a cluster of feminine or masculine tendencies and feelings. For moderate queerness, we are engaged in rules of evidence, not in a detached discourse about constitutive definitions and not even in a discourse about rights. A woman who declares herself to be a man (assuming I know that the declaration does not reflect her feelings) is still a woman. But a woman who has a man’s feelings is truly a man in terms of gender, even if not in terms of sex.
To allow a balanced and rational discussion, it is very important to understand that this is a different position from the extreme progressive stance (which one may of course also call “progressive”—see below) that Matt Walsh addressed and ridiculed.
As noted, at the factual level the moderate queer claim is very plausible. Denying the facts and the studies that point to it is burying one’s head in the sand. In fact, this is not just about studies but also about direct encounters with people who report their experiences. Even without in-depth investigation, and although I am well aware of the severe bias in the discourse and in the facts presented by research in these fields (on both sides), it is still clear to me that factually this is true. There is such a phenomenon, and I see no reason to think otherwise.
However, this is still not the full picture. Facts themselves are not the main focus of the discussion (though they tend to be presented as such). Moderate queerness has social-value implications, and these require their own discussion. I will touch on these shortly.
Is it an illness?
In debates around these phenomena, the question of whether such dysphoria (as well as any LGBTQ phenomenon) should be defined as an illness crops up from time to time. Conservatives, especially religious ones, tend to say yes, while liberals tend to protest and claim that this is stigmatizing.
More than once I have pointed out that this debate is semantics devoid of substantive content (see for example Column 146 and the columns cited there). If one defines illness as deviation from the norm, then of course it is an illness. But by that definition, height above or below average is also an illness. If one defines illness as a phenomenon with an organic source, then again unusual height would also be defined as such (height depends on genes). If one defines illness as something life-threatening, then many illnesses are not an illness. And if we define illness as a phenomenon that requires treatment, then transness is an illness only for someone who wants treatment (e.g., whoever goes to surgery or to a psychologist). In those columns I explained that the only way, as I understand it, to define this concept in a non-empty or non-arbitrary way is: something in the body or mind that bothers me and requires treatment (even if not always treatable; it could be an incurable illness).
This is of course a subjective definition, since the answer to whether some phenomenon requires treatment depends on whom you ask. Some people are unhappy being overweight and others live with it at peace. Likewise, some people live at peace with transness and some do not. Ultimately, an illness is something that bothers me and I would like to treat and eliminate. By this definition, for someone who wants to die—cancer is not an illness. Foucault, who argued this with respect to psychiatric symptoms, was right (even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Actually, only a stopped clock). I go a step further and argue that this is also true for organic illnesses. Cancer is an illness only for a person who does not want to suffer or die. There is no other non-arbitrary way to define even organic phenomena as illness.
One can broaden the definition and make it a little more objective, and say that an illness is something a reasonable person would want to treat (and then cancer is indeed an illness; most of us do not want to die). But then the question remains: who is the reasonable person? Religious people think homosexuality should be treated, but liberals think not (unless it bothers someone—and even then most think treatment is impossible).[4] Needless to say, regarding transness the matter depends on worldviews. The very fact that such people are in distress and some require surgery means that at least for them this is an illness by every accepted definition (unlike homosexuality—a dysphoria of sexual orientation—which is not, if only because there is as yet no relevant surgery). Conservatives think it should be treated and changed and therefore, in their view, it is an illness. Liberals think not—and therefore, in their view, it is not an illness. People think that if some phenomenon is an illness then it must be treated, but the truth is the reverse: if it needs treatment then, and only then, is it defined as an illness.
In short, the question of whether this is an illness or not reflects at most the speaker’s stance regarding the phenomenon in question. It contains nothing beyond that, and therefore there is no point wasting words on it. These debates are mainly a means of mutual bludgeoning.
Between semantics and values
In any case, let us now assume that the phenomenon of dysphoria does indeed exist factually. What does that mean? Moderate queerness argues that we must recognize this, and if we encounter a male who feels like a woman we should treat him as a woman. Again, not only to respect him or not hurt him, but because he really is a woman. The definition of him as a woman is based on the feminine features in his personality.
This is ostensibly a demand from the realm of manners and consideration for another’s feelings. But is that all? The moderate queer approach also assumes that gendered feelings are indeed what should define our social status. That is, they assume that addressing a person as a woman or as a man is determined by their gender (i.e., their feelings) and not by their sex (or sexual orientation). In principle, one could argue about this as well. One could claim that even if I accept the factual claim of moderate queerness, still in my view a male (in sex) with feminine feelings (indicating his gender) is a man. This view holds that a person’s characterization is not determined by gender but by sex, regardless of his gendered feelings (although I believe him that he feels so).
Yet here too it seems that this debate is superfluous, since it is mere semantics. If we all agree that this person is male in sex and female in gender, then the question of how to address the person (according to sex or gender) is just a social convention. So if it is very important to him that we address him thus, why should that bother anyone? Again, this is not a question of truth and falsehood but a normative determination. It is not even a matter of good and bad, but a norm that is a mere social convention.
A conservative can claim in response that it is important to him to relate to people according to their sex, exactly as it is important to them that we relate according to their gender. So why should we consider them and not him? That is a good claim—if I am truly convinced that it really matters to him. But if it is a claim raised only for the sake of argument, then it is indeed unworthy. I estimate that in most cases conservatives are not actually hurt by the demand to address a trans person according to their gender, especially if they internalize the factual agreement that underlies matters. If this does not reflect problematic values (and we have seen that it does not), why should I care? Why quarrel about it? Of course one can direct the same question to trans people (and their supporters). My sense is that in many—and perhaps most—cases, people entrench themselves in these claims because of their ideology (or what they believe is ideology, because they do not understand that it is mere convention), and their sense of hurt arises because of that. It is not the hurt that determines the attitude, but the attitude that determines the hurt.
It emerges that it is not the ideological dispute that creates the debate; rather, the debate is what turns this issue from semantics into ideology. Hence, we could have simply not argued (just flip a coin and thus decide on the relevant lexicon), and then the problem would not have arisen.
My main claim is that the fight is waged against progressivism—that is, the discourse that empties concepts of meaning—and people do not notice that moderate queerness is essentially an agreed factual claim, and that the debate is nothing but semantics. The fervor accompanying the entire debate is drawn from radical queerness, and if we are wise enough to distinguish between the phenomena, it will neutralize all the hostility and fervor, the extremism and mutual slanders, and it will return this foolish issue to its true proportions.
In our present situation, all sides already carry heavy baggage burdening them, and history has already created its residues within all of us. Therefore both sides feel hurt by these demands. Trans people (indeed the entire LGBTQ community) feel hurt by long years of discrimination against them—and they are of course right about that. But the violent and silencing discourse that they themselves have conducted in recent years, in particular the extremism toward radical queerness, arouses justifiably harsh feelings on the other side (=the sitra achra), which identifies the entire LGBTQ phenomenon with a value vacuum and which leads to feelings of threat and to waging war against the phenomena and against the people—and in particular against their rights. Thus a social limbo without an exit is created. If we were all healthy-minded Aspies (see Column 218) who do not fall for fantasies and emotions born of arbitrary conventions, then we could easily leave the progressives in their bizarre corner to talk to themselves, return to the starting point, and reopen a rational discussion (which almost never happens, certainly not on these topics). I think it would be quite easy to reach semantic agreement, and thus this debate would evaporate. As long as the facts are clear to all, why wrestle over mere terminology? Well, that is unlikely to happen soon, but at least we have reached the point where it is clear to us that this is psychology and agenda, not a truly value-laden debate.
As I explained, in my view there is no real value dispute here. It is only a matter of shifting the cheese. Everyone ought to agree about the facts, except that conservatives feel discomfort from changing the terminology and liberals demand to change it because of that same discomfort. This is simply infantile skirmishing on both sides: one wants to move the cheese and the other is bothered by the cheese being moved. In this sense we have returned to progressivism. If indeed there is nothing important here except semantics, is this not precisely the fight against progressive emptying? True—and therefore there is no point in fighting.
The connotations that have accumulated around these debates cause the feeling that this is a struggle over the society’s value character. In my opinion, absolutely not (so long as we are not dealing with radical queerness).
Moderate queerness: the halakhic plane
After I have dismissed the value dimension, what remains is the halakhic level. Homosexuality is halakhically forbidden, and this is a fact that is hard to dispute or change. But the trans phenomenon does not present such a difficulty. Think of a person whose sex is male and is straight, but whose gender is female. Suppose he behaves as a woman and has a partnership with another woman. In the conservative conception, there should be no prohibition of lesbian relations here, since this is a relationship between a man and a woman (though LGBTQ folk prefer to treat this as a relationship between a woman and a woman. But that is mere semantics). If it is a situation that reaches same-sex relations, that can indeed raise issues of arayot (forbidden relations), but that is not connected to transness but to homosexuality.
We still have the prohibition of a woman wearing a man’s clothing (and vice versa), or the performance or non-performance of commandments imposed on men or on women, and the like. Here the situation is more complex. Indeed, there is room for a halakhic claim that one whose gender is female is a woman also at the halakhic level, and therefore all the laws that apply to women apply to such a person. If we do not accept that, then the person must observe the laws of their sex and not of their gender—but even this need not arouse special problems. So let them observe those laws.
Of course, in the Talmud and halakhic literature it is standard to hang the definitions of male and female on sex and not on gender (as in the sugyot of signs of maturity, and of a tumtum and androgynos), but one might argue that this is only because Hazal did not yet have the conceptual framework and knowledge we have today. Therefore there is room to argue that the definition in our day could change and be based on gender and not on sex (this of course touches on the question of changes in halakhah, which I will not enter here). Add to this the question of whether Hazal viewed the physiological signs as indicators or as causes (at least regarding the latter signs of maturity this is explicitly discussed).[5] If they are only indicators, then it is possible that gender is the essential definer and the physical signs were only indicators of it, and now this could change.
In short, one can agree on all the halakhic rules, and the question that remains is the application. Everyone agrees that it is forbidden for a man to wear women’s clothing; the debate is over who is a man. But this is a debate like any other. I do not see why people treat this as a war against halakhah. It is a halakhic position with which not everyone agrees. In this sense, the halakhic status of a trans person is certainly easier than homosexuality, which of course is not reflected in public discourse. I presume that a gay child would not have aroused a demand to expel him from school—simply because we are used to that already. I do not see a difference between that and a trans child, and if there is a difference it is clearly in favor of the trans child.
I do not intend to claim that recognizing gender as the basis for the halakhic definition of man and woman is simple. Clearly it is not agreed upon and there will be a (sane and legitimate) debate about it, but in my eyes it is at least a claim that can be made, and the debate over it is no different from any other halakhic debate (again, if we manage to ignore the sediment that has accumulated here due to the public struggles). There is also sensitivity regarding joint activities. What will those do who think the definition is based on genitalia when alongside them there is a transgender person who thinks the definition is based on gender? It will be hard for them to function together. Still, this is not altogether different from other halakhic disputes that we must learn to live with (though I agree that practically there is a nontrivial difficulty here). In any case, it is clear that the fundamental problem is human and emotional rather than halakhic. We live in peace and proximity with Sabbath desecrators and with those who sleep with a niddah, and it does not seem to me that the halakhic aspects of the trans phenomenon are more severe than those. As for psychological and social sensitivities, these are things that one can and should overcome. These are certainly not values or ideology worth fighting over.
Sex-reassignment surgery
Even regarding sex-reassignment surgery, it is not clear whether there is a prohibition. One can regard the outcome of the surgery as male or as female, but either conception is a legitimate halakhic claim. The surgery itself could be forbidden, since for a male, for example, it involves castration, which is forbidden by halakhah. It also prevents him from fulfilling the commandment of procreation. But that assumes we are indeed dealing with a male. If this is a woman, then there is room to claim that there is no prohibition.
Think, for example, of someone who undergoes surgery due to some medical problem and as a result loses the ability to have children. We will treat that far more leniently. Likewise, if we see a person suffering from unremitting (physical) pain, would we not permit them to have such surgery to treat their pain? By logic it seems to me that persistent and unremitting mental pain is no different in this regard, and therefore there is room to compromise the ability to procreate in order to resolve the trans person’s distress (dysphoria). One who does not find a suitable partner and thus decrees upon himself not to have children and to fulfill the commandment of procreation—there too we do not see a major prohibition. Note that a person suffering from dysphoria might not find a partner for this reason, and therefore in any case he will not fulfill procreation.
Well, I will not expand here because this is not the place. In any case, regarding these surgeries, see Tzitz Eliezer vol. 10 §25 ch. 26 (note that he deals only with physical changes—that is, it is clear to him that the definition depends on sexual organs, and he does not deal with gender. So too in vol. 11 §8 and §78 and vol. 22 §2).[6] To conclude, I will only note that in the heat of argument people can interpret sources and bend them in their direction freely out of complete misunderstanding. For example, some time ago I was sent a post by a man named Ariel Horowitz, who brings a story in which Rabbi Waldenberg, author of Tzitz Eliezer, seemingly recognizes a trans identity:
In the 1950s, Rabbi Eliezer Yehuda Waldenberg, author of the responsa “Tzitz Eliezer,” was the rabbi of Shaare Zedek Hospital in Jerusalem. One day Rabbi Waldenberg was asked about a person who entered the men’s section of the synagogue and wanted to join the quorum, but the other worshipers suspected that he was a woman. Rabbi Waldenberg—who did not need videos from the Liba Center, incitement from Bezalel Smotrich, or other rabbis to preach to him about the healthy institution of the family—ruled explicitly that one should follow the person’s self-definition and external indicators. In other words: a person’s gender status can change according to surgery or external changes.
He brings this story in the context of the case of the trans girl in Giv’at Shmuel. What does he learn from this? That a person’s gender status can change according to self-definition? Whether his intention is the radical approach (that a person constitutes their gender) or the more moderate approach (that a person is credible in testifying about their gender), this is nonsense that does not approach Rabbi Waldenberg’s words. All he wrote there was that a person is credible in saying he is a man (in particular if his external signs match his description), and there is no need to check his “fringes.” On the contrary, it follows from his words that if the external signs do not match, his declaration that he is a man will not help. In any case, there is not even a hint here of relating to gender identity detached from sex; on the contrary, as we saw above, Rabbi Waldenberg explicitly writes in several places in his responsa the exact opposite. Sadly, even if you are a liberal, the arguments and sources you bring must hold water.
Back to the Giv’at Shmuel case
In the discourse around the Giv’at Shmuel case, the common assumption among conservatives is that this is a progressive event. See, for example, the announcement of the conference to be held in Giv’at Shmuel (the crime scene) on the evening after the Fast of Gedaliah, where the public will be presented with objective information by world-renowned experts (including a city council member, a yeshiva head, a forum chairwoman, and a newspaper editor), in which diverse positions from different angles on the issue of children with worrying progressive tendencies will be presented, and thus everyone will be able to understand their roots and receive tools with which to cook up all the tough questions:
Before you run to the conference, note that in this announcement there is an identification—as if self-evident—between the issue under discussion here and progressivism (attendees are expected to arrive with the appropriate feelings and connotations).
If we look a bit more closely at our case, we should first remember the basic groundwork of the discussion: moderate queerness is a very reasonable position, at least at the factual level, and the debate over terminology is primarily semantics. The phenomenon exists and cannot be denied. I add here the assumption that the parents likely hold the moderate view. It is reasonable that they are not demanding a principled right for the girl to define herself just because she feels like it, but are making a factual claim: her feelings and tendencies seem male, even though at the sexual level she is a girl. It is very unlikely, in my opinion, that without significant reasons reasonable religious parents (from Giv’at Shmuel) would embark on such an adventure merely to advance a progressive agenda (unless they received a fat grant from the New Israel Fund and the European Union). If we accept these two plausible assumptions, then at the first stage we must recognize that the story begins with a real problem with which the girl and her parents grappled. Now we must ask ourselves what they ought to have done under these circumstances—or rather, what we ourselves would have done (the conference will surely provide all the answers, but in the meantime I shall try to guess).
As noted, I fully agree that the source of the girl’s feelings could certainly be influenced by the liberal environment and by LGBTQ discourse. Still, these are her feelings, and she came with them to her parents. I assume they did not find a reasonable way to cope with this difficulty and distress, and surely turned to a psychologist and afterwards to the school administration, and through it to the State-Religious Education Administration (which, as noted, consulted with Rabbi Yaakov Ariel), and this is the solution they found.
We must remember that we are dealing here with a minor, and therefore it is reasonable to expect the parents and the therapist to take into account that this may be an adolescent caprice, gender confusion (it is known that there is sexual confusion among teenagers, but here it is gender and not sexual orientation). They should have examined whether there is information about the reliability of these feelings—that is, what will remain of them in adulthood. To what extent do the feelings of a seven-year-old girl reflect real dysphoria or temporary confusion? With regard to surgery (which did not occur here), it is clear that such concerns are much weightier, since it carries risks and irreversible outcomes. But here no surgery was done; rather, it was decided to allow her to “dress up” as a boy and function as such at school. I allow myself to surmise that this was done after consideration in which they took into account and examined all that I noted above and more, and in the end saw no other way out. In any case, it is plausible that even the conservative critics have no information different from what I have regarding the process and the decision-making. If so, let us adopt these plausible assumptions, all at the factual level. So far there are still no values. In that case, everything seems fine, and one can understand this family’s decision-making according to their own lights.
I must reiterate what I explained above: that the value aspects do not truly exist in such a case, and the halakhic aspects also carry limited weight—and for a girl of seven or nine (long before bat mitzvah) the weight is even lower. Yet another question arises: these actions were not done in a vacuum. There are other children in the school, and this may cause them problems. Such a step can have ramifications for the environment, and therefore it seems it cannot be decided in a closed forum without informing the other stakeholders. The paternalism of the school and the Ministry of Education is problematic. Indeed, we should remember that in a sense this paternalism is embedded in the very fact that our education is centrally managed by the Ministry of Education. Still, there is room to argue that in such an exceptional matter they ought to have included the parents.
Now we must ask ourselves two final questions, which of course are related:
- What could the girl’s parents have done in the face of their daughter’s distress? Revealing to everyone that this is the situation could have confused the children even more, and it is doubtful they would have agreed to cooperate (we see what happened in the end). Perhaps they could have included only the parents without the children—but it is doubtful how much such a thing can be kept secret (we see it was not kept even when no one was told).
- What harm was caused to the other children? I assume the teachers are not truly harmed, and therefore their claims do not seem serious to me. I am referring here only to the claims of the other children and their parents.
I think the expected harm to the other children in this case is very limited—at least at such a young age. What could really happen? The sexual aspects do not yet exist. Perhaps the surprise of the discovery itself could create problems. But apart from that, the fact that there was a girl in costume who participated in activities as if she were a boy—whom does that harm and why should it bother anyone? There may be aspects I have not considered, and in practice some harms may occur, but it seems to me that in principle these harms are not truly significant. This is a decent reason why the parents are not necessarily required to involve the entire environment in this matter.
But even after this came to light and the children were surprised, one can explain to them that this is a girl with a special distress, like the many distresses of other children (today they are called “children with disabilities”), and this is the way chosen to treat it. I think children can accept such a thing, and the younger they are the easier it is, because for them it becomes part of the world they know—period. In fact, if I understand correctly, that is exactly the situation right now. Everyone knows that this is actually a girl in costume, and at present she is there in the school and things are more or less proceeding as they should. Many children with disabilities participate in regular classes and the children must learn to live with them.
It is true that for these same reasons it seems it could have been done from the outset—that is, to include and coordinate everything with the children and their parents at the time of the decision, and to preempt matters. They could have explained the problem and then everyone would have understood the distress and participated in the effort to solve it. Things could have been allowed to proceed openly, as is now happening in practice after the disclosure. The surprise created part of the rupture and the anger, and that could have been avoided. I think that if there is any lesson I would draw from this case, it is the reverse of what the rabbis who signed the letter above concluded. One can do what is necessary (if there is no other way to cope with the distress), but do so in coordination with the environment.
After accruing experience in dealing with new challenges, in the future we will know how to do this better. In practice, the parents and the administration did not do so in this case because they did not yet have experience. This was probably also a mistake, and in this sense the parents’ protest may be understandable (not about the very step the girl’s parents took, but about the fact that the environment was not included). So what? Everyone there made mistakes. Does that justify demonstrations and anti-progressive noise? In my opinion—absolutely not. Again, progressives do deserve condemnation and struggle against them, but what do moderate queers and those who truly suffer from this dysphoria have to do with it? This is a fact, not a value. Facts must be confronted. Denying them does not help. On the contrary, if there is another way to cope, it is worth discussing it openly and deciding accordingly. All through substantive discussion. The baggage that this issue has absorbed causes the whole matter to grow far beyond reasonable proportions and prevents substantive discussion.
I must nevertheless add a note to the other side. The righteous liberal claims that protest the abuse of a child and the raucous demonstrations of adults that ignore a child’s suffering are disingenuous. If there is indeed an ideological problem here—and that is apparently what some parents thought (though I personally do not see it that way)—then this may justify demonstrations even facing a suffering child. When an ideological struggle is underway, whether justified or not, this child is caught up in it. I do not think people must abandon their conceptions and pay any educational and value price merely out of fear of hurting a child. It is indeed painful when a child suffers, but the question is the broader price of capitulation in this struggle. Sometimes an individual, even a child, must pay a price for struggles occurring in the background. If they had not acceded to the girl’s request and had left her as a girl, she would have suffered because of the educational agenda. Now she has become a boy (or a girl in costume), and she is again suffering. By acceding to her request, perhaps the other children are also suffering. Therefore there is no schoolbook answer; but considerations of a child’s distress are not everything. They are one component among a wider set of considerations, and focusing on them alone is demagoguery.
And still, after noting this, I return to what I wrote above. Since in my opinion the costs here are not very significant (if at all), there was no need to spark such a high-intensity struggle. An inquiry could have been conducted and a decision reached. Moreover, the question of whether to allow the girl to dress up is separate from the question of what we demand of the other children. It may be possible to tell the other children to address her as a girl, and to tell her that the way they perceive her is different (for she is a girl by sex, even if not by gender), and that she too should consider them. Just as the other children are supposed to accept unusual conduct and get used to it, so could this girl accept such an arrangement and get used to it for their sake. She will be a boy who is addressed in the feminine because that is how the other children think of her, and they too deserve consideration.
In conclusion
I am not sure this is the optimal course of conduct, and I did not intend here to offer a prescription for a solution but only to illustrate a way of thinking. I am sure there are other problems I have not considered, and perhaps there are better and more effective solutions. What is more important to me is that the picture I presented here suffices to dissipate the artificial and harmful tension that envelops this issue and thus can lead to reasonable understandings that both sides can accept sensibly.
I think we at least owe this to all the parties who suffered in this case, and no less to the children and to the next cases in line. We must learn how to conduct ourselves henceforth rationally, coolly, and soberly—without emotions and without unnecessary outbursts. It is also more pleasant, also less harmful, and also leads to better results. I think that all sides there paid the tuition, especially the girl and her parents. If we draw the lesson, then we can say that at least it was not in vain.
[1] I use the feminine for her because that is her sex. Below I will address the relation between sex and gender.
[2] The masculine here is because I am describing the stance sympathetic to the phenomenon, of course.
[3] A blatant example is R. Z. N. Goldberg, who came out against the heter (permit) of get delivery in absentia in the Safed rabbinical court, while the judges there claimed they had received his consent for their ruling (see for example here). It seems plausible to me that this was not deceit by the judges but fear on R. Goldberg’s part of the criticism that arose there.
[4] It turns out that even by their view we apparently have rigid characteristics that cannot be changed.
[5] See for example here and here. With regard to signs of maturity, however, the discussion is whether they are signs of mental maturity, for halakhic adulthood concerns legal responsibility and obligation in commandments. Therefore there it is reasonable to see them as a sign of mental maturity rather than a cause.
[6] See also the comprehensive article by Shmuel Shimoni, “Legal Recognition of Sex Change,” Mekhkarai Mishpat 28 (2013), p. 311.
On the 4th of Elul, the day of separation between water and water, 26th of Elul, 2nd of February
The matter is not so complicated. Since this is a religious school that educates its students to observe the Torah commandments, the student must fulfill the Torah commandment, "There shall be no man's hand over a woman." And since in the 4th grade they begin to separate boys and girls, she will have to study in the girls' class.
Even if fulfilling the commandment, "There shall be no man's hand over a woman," is difficult for the girl or her parents, it is still a commandment of God, and a commandment that comes to a person with difficulty is a great reward for the sake of God. And usually, when we are tempted to do God's will, – Only the beginning is difficult, and later one finds great pleasure and satisfaction in overcoming one's inclinations. And it is good for a woman to bear a burden in her youth. This will strengthen her to meet the challenges of life, which are not easy.
And does a person always love the burden that is placed upon him? Starting with the burden of studies, continuing with the torments of adolescence and the period of searching for a mate, and continuing with the difficulties of earning a living and the sorrow of raising sons until they stand on their own, and then come the difficulties and torments of old age. Life is not just a ‘garden of roses’, but one must deal with the difficulties, and what is better than the explicit guidance of the Creator of the world in his Torah?
With the blessing of accepting the divine calling with desire and joy, Amioz Yaron Schnitzel”R
P.S. What is the business of ‘Ariel Shmuel David’ And Shmuel Lorber to this post? It would have been better to indicate as a related article the column on the subject of What is a Woman? and so on.
On the 1st of Elul, the day of creation of union and growth
If on the second day a separation was created between water and water, which led to powerful longings for a renewed union between water and water – then on the third day the possibility of a fruitful union between them was created. The upper waters descend to the earth and make it grow. The excess flows to the sea and some evaporates upwards and returns and falls as rain and repeats again.
Man and woman were also created united and separated. This created a deficiency in each of them. Man lacks the feminine element in his identity and woman lacks the masculine element in her identity, and therefore the desire to fill the missing element is understandable. But here the Torah teaches us that the union will not be by man becoming woman or woman becoming man, but by each one developing his unique identity and at the same time connecting with the complementary identity in order to create a strong and stable unity through love and desires.
Best regards, Hasdai Bezalel Duvdevani Kirshen-Kvass
It is therefore possible to understand the sense of deprivation of the man who lacks the feminine dimension and of the woman who feels the lack of masculine qualities. I mentioned the correction in the union of man and woman that leads to mutual completion, as Rabbi Yehuda the President said about the father who teaches his son Torah, who is balanced against the mother who coaxes him with words, that there is a need to combine masculine authority with feminine love of kindness, fear with love.
Rabbi Barachiah (Yoma) teaches us that the Torah scholars combine the good qualities of masculinity and femininity, ‘who are like women’ (Rashi: Anavatin and Tashoshi 28) ‘and act bravely like men’, a combination of firmness and gentleness, strength and humility.
With greetings, Simcha Fishel Halevi Plankton
General comment:
In my opinion, your presentation of the materialist position is often unfair, and at least does not pass the ideological Turing test – as a materialist I do not identify with the conclusions-ostensibly of my position, and therefore not with the tensions they produce. In this case, you put into the mouth of the materialist a general denial of psychology, and hence the conclusion that physiology determines everything. But of course, according to him (according to me), psychology is a very real thing, realized by the physiology of the brain – which is an organ of the body no less than any other. All I need to reconcile transgenderism with my worldview is a few neurons that wired to the right instead of the left – whether because of a certain combination of genes, because of a certain combination of environmental stimuli, or because of a combination of the two.
A very strange message. You repeat what I wrote and say that I present materialism in a biased way. In addition, I did not write anywhere that psychology is not true in a materialistic picture. In short, you probably intend to respond to someone else. Try to find him and post your response there.
Hello Rabbi.
You use physiological height twice to demonstrate cases where we would all agree that it is not a disease.
I didn't understand why – You don't think dwarfism is a disease? Or the opposite – People raising 2.60 (arbitrarily) is not a biological distortion?
As you always say – The fact that the border is gray, curved and wide does not mean that there is no border, but the extremes of the distribution are indeed a disease.
Whether they interfere is something else.
In my opinion, no height is a disease unless it bothers you. It's not a question of a gray border, but also whether it's completely black and white. Maybe the grayness of the concept of disease is only in the question of how much it should bother you, but even there I proposed a criterion: does it require treatment.
This whole separation between sex and gender is a bluff (invented by mindless people). Not every invented concept should be adopted from the ridiculous academy (“gender science”). A man can have a feminine soul but he is a man (mentally ill). The entire meaning of feminine behavior is derived from the character and behavior of male female beings. Anyone who says he is a woman is like someone saying he is a cat. It is simply meaningless. Or mentally ill. Like someone who says he is Napoleon. The girl should not be in this class not because of religious matters but because she is mentally ill and has no place in a regular school. And I have nothing to accept or even argue with moderate queers. Anyone who does not understand this is opinionless. There is a strong intuition when something is a disease (biologically or mentally abnormal. That is, bad) and certainly it is not related to a deviation from some norm. Even if 99% of the population has cancer, it will still be a disease.
The way Rabbi Michi tries to sell us transgenderism as something normal (or that its normality is a legitimate dispute) is ridiculous and incomprehensible to me. And certainly sex change surgery, which is simply mutilation. Even in a liberal country, I would use coercion to prevent such surgeries (just as people are prevented from harming themselves or taking their own lives) and certainly not fund them.
So it's good that this is a normal country that doesn't let you and your ilk make decisions here.
The country is indeed abnormal.
And in an abnormal country, I have no interest in making decisions for the crazy and mentally ill. That much will save me from them and that's it.
Emmanuel responded correctly. The rabbi answered him cynically and evasively.
Emanuel did not respond but stated nonsense with determination. As usual, he always assumes that determination is a substitute for arguments. When I see arguments, I always address them. He had none.
Anyone who sees this as a relevant and correct response needs to go back to first grade.
I did not come to argue with the rabbi. But my response is very matter-of-fact (I don't know what he calls "not my business." This was not a response about physics, for example). Regarding correctness, this is exactly what I leave to the objective reader to judge. My goal in this response is to refute the basic premise that Rabbi Michi is trying to sell under the rug (or over it). He adopts this invented concept of "gender" in order to reach the conclusion (and sell it) that transgenderism is a disease (and sex reassignment surgery is simply mutilation). And since it seems to me that most readers here are very influenced by his subtext (you are allowed to think this way and that, but you are not allowed to think that way, otherwise you will be declared delusional and crazy by me, in the manner of all pseudo-intellectuals of the left (and he is not one of them). And he tries quite hard to throw his weight around in such declarations), then I saw a need to deny this publicly and say that the ”king” is naked and they are trying to sell us an engineered reality. From his point of view, there is no such thing as a disease anymore. Dwarfism is no longer a disease if height doesn't bother someone. What is he saying? But it happens that for 99.9999999999% of humanity it bothers. And even if cancer doesn't bother someone, then from his point of view it is not a disease. Clearly, a disease assumes that there is something wrong here. My only claim is that this evil is objective (exists in reality itself. Otherwise, why would 99% of humanity think this way?) and he simply claims that evil and good of this kind (not the moral. The ”aesthetic” in his language) are not objective. This is part of the engineering of this progressive reality. Soon, ugliness and beauty will also become empty concepts (like everything that is not objective) and I do declare that this is a bluff so that the objective reader can judge us without fear. I have a feeling that many think like me and I do not want them to be afraid to express it here for fear of not being liked by the rabbi and his flock of believers.
Note that he is still trying to belittle you, who are at the level of a first grader’ if you think that my words may be true. This is exactly what I am trying to do in my response. That people will not be impressed by his attempts to belittle them in order to make them assume his same basic assumptions.
Correction of error:
In the fifth line: ” To reach the conclusion (and sell it) that transgenderism is not a disease (and sex change surgery is not simply mutilation)”
What does it mean that the separation between sex and gender is a bluff? Don't you see differences in humans between biology and, behavior, language and mentality? For example, in most societies there is an overwhelming majority that associates femininity with dresses and long hair (although of course this is not categorical or necessary). If you say that there is no difference between sex and gender, you probably mean to eliminate the latter category (gender) and then it turns out that in your opinion growing long hair or wearing a dress is a biological reality…
There is feminine and masculine behavior and there is a biological sex of male and female (or man and woman in the human species). If a biological man behaves like a woman then he is still a man (not a particularly successful one) even if he says until the day after tomorrow that he is a woman. He is not a male with a feminine gender. He is not a woman. That is what I am saying.
I partially agree with your last comment, but it means that, contrary to your previous statement, your method also makes a distinction between sex and gender. A man who behaves like a woman remains a man from a biological sexual perspective, but at the same time has adopted female gender elements (even if partially). You probably understand that if we insist on claiming that there is no distinction between sex and gender, we will play into the hands of radical queers, since they also deny this distinction.
I'm not trying to play or not play into the hands of any sociological group. I'm simply saying things the way I see them. And what you call radical queers are people without an opinion and should not be treated or come into contact with. In relation to what you wrote in addition, this is just semantics. I have no interest in giving a name to male or female behavior as a gender. This seems to me to be an unnecessary definition that contributes nothing to the understanding of any issue. This invention of the concept of gender (giving another name to male or female behavior) is intended to obscure and obscure simple truths. A man who behaves like a woman is a problem. It's not appropriate. He could, in principle, do one of two things: either recover from the mental illness or undergo a real sex change (become a real biological fertile female with a uterus, ovaries, eggs, appropriate sex chromosomes, etc.), which does not exist today. What exists today is simply mutilation. And as long as he hasn't undergone a real sex change, he's a man with a mental problem. Calling him a man with female gender characteristics is precisely intended to obscure the fact that it's a disease through a research misconception (which makes it something normal (healthy). For example, they say that "there can be all kinds of combinations of sex and gender", etc.)
You may not be “trying” but that is what actually comes out of your words, according to which there is no distinction between sex and gender. This diagnosis itself is objective (even if the concept of gender itself is not objective in the strict sense). In other words: you are a partner in anti-binary transgender radicalism. If there is a heaven for transgender people and their supporters, your place is guaranteed there.
I don't understand you. If a human were to wake up tomorrow and adopt the behavior of a cat. Walk on all fours and howl, etc. (and eventually demand that you address him as a cat), would you define him as having the gender of a cat? Say that he is a biological human species (Homo sapiens) but has a cat gender (belongs to the cat family gender – scientific name: Felidae)?
No. You would call him crazy and that's it. It's the same thing here. What does it have to do with radicals, etc.?
And that's actually what Rabbi Michi wants us to do. He thinks that defining a woman as biological or gendered is a draw. Not a disease. So no. It's not a draw. It's madness.
Emmanuel, I've got you! You're a foreign agent of the progressives who came to sow confusion in the conservative camp. At first you contributed to blurring the objective distinction between gender (in the conservative sense!) and biological sex. Now you see that you're getting away with it and you're interested in blurring the distinction between cats (and animals in general) and humans as well. To remind you: there is no gender for creatures that are not part of human culture. Not gender in the conservative sense and certainly not in the delusional interpretation of a concept as practiced by extreme queers. A person could, if they tried very hard, adopt a tiny part of the behaviors of cats but never their gender. Simply because they don't have one.
I think I'll bring in the last remaining conservative militias here tonight and raid your house.
“If we were all healthy Aspergers who didn't follow fantasies and emotions that stem from arbitrary conventions, then it would be easy to leave the progressives in their delusional corner to talk to themselves, go back to the starting point and reopen a rational discussion.” End quote.
Well, since I'm less of an admirer of Aspergers, I suggest that we still try to decipher what it is that makes people freak out and go crazy when it comes to matters of sexual identity. True, when someone violates Shabbat, or eats leaven on Passover, no fundamental chaos is caused by it: there is a mitzvah, there is a transgression, this is the way of the world and there is nothing new under the sun. The world will not be shaken. On the other hand, gender and sexual confusion is a frightening thing. It removes the ground from under your feet. Here you can identify a fear of identity and moral chaos, of the mother of all depravity. Of a basic loss of direction. (In a book I once read, people are tortured by imagining emptiness. An existence without senses, which confuses their entire world and crushes them mentally.) Therefore, precisely to deal with them - I wouldn't dismiss these feelings too quickly.
Hayutha, I probably don't need to tell you that I think if people are confused and suffering they should take a pill. That doesn't make anything a value or a right.
If you don't eliminate the feelings that make trans people cling to their identity, don't eliminate the feelings that make conservatives resist and abhor it. Everyone has psychologies. The way to deal with psychological slip-ups is to take a pill and go back to philosophy.
Maybe one day I'll be able to explain that in the realm of human situations there are more things than "reason" (correct) or "emotion" (unnecessary).
Try to appeal to my intellect (not my emotions) with this. Maybe it will work. 🙂
“The Messiah has come and we were not informed?
Coming soon.
Thank you for the balanced and interesting analysis that is sorely lacking in the discourse.
Two points that I feel are missing from your analysis:
1. You put in parentheses a claim that is super important to the debate – specifically with moderate queerness: “Apparently the ways to adjust gender to sex are more difficult, if they exist at all”. This is a claim that at the very least needs to be anchored in research that I think does not exist today, and it of course touches on the question of the weight of genetics and environment in explaining the phenomenon, certainly at a young age when gender is still being formed and there are confusions as you mentioned. “Going to a psychologist” is not always a solution if you don't know whether the psychologist is taking the approach that the solution is in adjusting gender or adjusting sex (if it is even legitimate for him to hold one of the positions a priori). On the homosexual issue, the psychological debate has decided, at least publicly, that the only legitimate approach is to accept one's sexual orientation as given and unchangeable, and in any case the challenge is to adapt one's behavior to it and come to terms with the new sexual identity. The consequences of this perception for the transgender equivalent are much more far-reaching because of the surgeries and sometimes the harm to fertility or the ability to start a family, but for homosexuals too the consequences are far-reaching in building a family unit that now depends on two external women, at least one of whom sacrifices her body, at great financial expense, and in bringing a child into the world who will never know his mother. (Of course, shared parenting solves part of the problem, but it cannot be said that it is socially preferable, and it is not without its complexities either.) In any case, if it were to turn out that in a reality where sexual orientation is simply not an acceptable option, gender orientation is something that at least in some cases succeeds, with or without intervention, or that most confused children find their place in the world within the framework of their gender, even if through mental anguish, and even if in a partial way that requires coping, wouldn't such an understanding have implications for the debate with moderate queerness? I think that a significant part of the labeling of this approach as progressive stems from the feeling that it takes too much seriousness about personal feelings at a given time, as if what a person feels is the only objective thing to hang on to, while as mentioned, it is possible that this is a case of confusion, temporary or permanent, that may be greatly influenced by the discourse and agendas in the environment. This attitude could be a catalyst for the expansion of the phenomenon in an era where there are no anchors and the "norm" is shrinking. When there is a greater supply of identity products on the shelf, the ”objective”feelings may change, and there is quite a bit of evidence of the spread of the phenomenon where it exists and receives more legitimacy (I do not know of any scientific support for the claim). Progressives will always claim that this is a discovery of what already exists and not an expansion of the phenomenon, and once again we are back to the basic point of disagreement, which in my opinion has greater weight than the one you described, and there is no research decision and no real attempt to study the issue scientifically.
2. You treat with equanimity the implications of expecting other children to recognize dysphoria and adapt their appeal to the child, as if it were an inclusion of disability as all disabilities. The appeal itself is indeed a semantic matter and is really not that important, as you noted. But turning is not a semantic matter, it is a complete relationship, and we as adults treat women and men differently whether we like it or not, and with children who have not yet formed a sexual identity, things are much more complicated because the dichotomy between boys and girls is much stronger and serves the development of each child. The concealment and surprise that follows certainly have confusing consequences for such an age, not because of the practice of turning, but because of a relationship that was based on a mistake (forgive me for being blunt, think of a boy who peed next to another boy for a whole year and then discovered that it was a girl, but we don't have to go far to this very realistic situation, it is enough to think of the friendly contact that exists between boys that they are unable to imagine at this stage with girls who mainly deter them at this stage in a completely normal way), but even without the surprise, the mere expectation of children to turn to someone of a different gender is an excessive expectation and very far from being semantic (it is difficult and confusing for me as an adult too). This may also have a developmental impact on other children, whose worldview will be distorted at a very young age.
1. I don't see why this is such an important claim for analysis. In my opinion, it is marginal for two reasons. It seems to me that there is no serious information about this, and even if there is – it is not very important.
Let's assume that there are ways to do this, and even if they are scientifically valid (they have been tested, including the consequences, does it work on all types of trans people, etc.), this is still one of two options facing such a girl. You assume that if both ways exist, then the first is preferable, but there may be those who prefer the second. The question is whether it is problematic and what should be done about it. I claimed that it is not particularly problematic. This is beyond the question of whether such a way really exists (I did not see evidence of this in your words). But if there is evidence of this, we can certainly discuss it.
2. In relation to this comment, I will tell you a story. When I lived in a haredi society, I was constantly told that I had to change my clothing to haredi, because when my children reached their bar mitzvah, the situation would be very confusing for them. I didn't do this, and it turned out that children live peacefully with all kinds of abnormalities. This fear of confusing children is very excessive. If you explain to children that this is a boy and this is a girl and this is how the relationship should be, and at the same time explain that there is an abnormal girl who needs to be taken into account and treated differently - in my opinion, nothing will happen. A child with attention problems doesn't do homework. Should this bother the other children who are raised to do it? Not necessarily. If there is a boy who has a problem and is forbidden to wear tefillin, but of course they don't reveal the situation to others. Should this confuse everyone? They tell them that he has a special problem and therefore he behaves differently. In my opinion, nothing will happen. Children, precisely because of their young age and mental flexibility, can accommodate almost anything.
I wrote that there could be problems that I didn't think of, and it is even very likely that there are. Addressing a girl in the masculine gender is an example of this. It may be problematic (although I'm not sure). So what? The question is not what the solution is, but what kind of solution they are looking for, and whether they are willing to think about it in a balanced way and not hysterically. Is there a problem with using those services? I am not at all sure. But even if there is, a local solution can be found for that too. And so with the form of the appeal. My goal is to change the paradigm and the principled direction, not to propose a concrete solution.
Hello Rabbi,
Regarding the facts you have raised, as far as I understand, they are not accurate.
I spoke to the mother of a student from the same class at school, with whom I am closely acquainted.
According to her, the child has been dressing up since the age of 3! She has been presenting herself as a boy for years, and not since the age of 7 as you understand.
It is very difficult to understand that a child at the age of 3 feels a conflicting gender identity, and therefore, according to the perception of the environment, those who 'turned' the child into a boy are the parents, who preferred that she be a boy. They are the ones who turned her into a boy since she was a toddler.
So even if we accept the needs of the child in a situation where she is mature enough and ripe enough to understand what gender change is, it is more difficult to accept a situation in which the parents are the initiators of the gender change. They confused her from a young age, and now it is not clear what is in the child's best interest. The initiative for change comes from outside, would she have wanted to change without the ongoing parental influence? Who knows?
The question that arises in such a situation is whether such a child is suitable for the setting, because of the education she receives at home that is not compatible with the religious education at school.
For comparison, at the same school a child cannot bring a cake baked at home, due to concerns about kosher. At any event (birthday, party), only products packaged with a kosher seal can be brought. So if non-kosher food is prohibited, why is transgender education allowed to be brought from home? Again, the child is not bringing her own personal problem or need, but parental influence. Does such parental influence have a place in a religious school?
According to the same mother, parents of classmates asked to transfer their sons to another setting, to spare them the confusion that the event creates. Initially, the authorities agreed, but when they saw that the requests were multiplying and there was a fear that the child would be left alone, they relented and did not allow the transfer.
I would be happy if you would address the specific question I am raising, in accordance with the description of the case as I learned from investigating the matter. Should parents in a religious school agree to such behavior, when in their understanding it is the result of non-religious education and not a personal problem of the child?
Haim Zeilig in Berger
Hello.
1. I'll start with a story. When I was in the army, one of our guys shot himself in the doorway of my tent and committed suicide. After that, journalists came and all the guys said that we were being abused because we were yeshiva members, and they told hair-raising stories about what was happening to us. It got to the press, literally “from the horse's mouth”. The soldiers who were abused were witnesses. But I knew that it was all fabricated, from the beginning to the end. People were sure that this was the case, and not that they were lying. But this is a picture that was painted retrospectively after the incident happened. There was abuse, as in all basic training, and nothing to do with us being yeshiva members.
What I mean is that after an incident happens that causes a stir and shakes us, people have a tendency to paint the past in colors that suit their agenda. That's why I highly doubt that mother's story. She may have seen herself disguised as a boy once, and that's legitimate. And even if it's not legitimate - then it was a mistake on the part of the parents. From here to the conclusion that the parents wanted a boy and therefore turned her into one with their own hands, it borders on science fiction. Because I know such human dynamics, and I know how myths are created that people are convinced of as if they have personal and direct information, I'm not inclined to believe it.
2. But even if so, you assume that there is a problematic situation here and that the parents are to blame. But if the situation is not so problematic, as I explained, then we can also accept that the parents did it. Moreover, even if the parents did it, now there is a child with a problem. Should we ignore it? If there are heavy prices - absolutely. But if the prices are not heavy, as I claim, then the problem should be taken into account even if the parents are to blame for it.
3. You make assumptions about a three-year-old girl. Neither you nor I know her, and we probably haven't studied the phenomenon. How do you know that in a three-year-old girl it's just confusion. It could be confusion, but it could also be not. Let's assume that the case was examined and it became clear to the psychologist and the parents that it wasn't just confusion, or that it was confusion that there was no good way to deal with. What should they do?
4. The comparison to a different kosher cake is absurd. It's clear to everyone that there are kosher standards that must be met. I'm not against rules. I'm against disregarding exceptional situations, even if they contradict the rules, and especially when it involves a problem and distress. If there was a child who was in distress if we ate fancy kosher, I think the school really should have allowed a lower level of kosher in his case. Indeed, it did.
5. Regarding the question of the transition, my opinion is that regardless of this case, limiting the transitions is a scandal. It's part of the centralism of the Ministry of Education, and in my opinion it's problematic in itself. Regardless of this case.
I'm going back to the facts again.
You are tempted to think that the gender change only happened at age 7, and you doubt the story because of your familiarity with human dynamics.
But from reading the articles you cited, it appears that things happened at an early age. The third paragraph in the Channel 7 article states that the child's sexuality was already visible from the first grade to only a limited number of school staff members. A simple understanding of what was said suggests that the parents registered the girl as a boy from the time of registration at the age of at least 5.5, and that the girl cooperated and presented herself as a boy (spoke about herself in the masculine) from the moment she entered school. This is from a simple reading, not "from the horse's mouth."
If the girl lived in the neighborhood (and did not emigrate from another place), the presentation probably began at an earlier age. After all, it is not possible to send her as a girl to a kindergarten and a pre-school in the neighborhood, and immediately register her as a boy in a school in the same place, because this would be discovered, and this is kept secret. So assuming they didn't immigrate right at the time of entering the school (or that they still live in a remote place today), simple math says that the show is from infancy. I'm surprised you understood otherwise (I'd be happy to explain).
Regarding what you wrote about there being room to consider waiving 'mehadrin' kosher in order not to harm the person, the comparison is exaggerated. I don't know the Jewish community and the level of religiosity in that school very well, but the school doesn't require the cake to be mehadrin, but rather kosher in a basic way. For comparison, among the mothers, many wear pants and don't cover their heads (like the one I spoke to), and there are also those who live in lesbian relationships, and no one has a problem with that, no one is trying to frighten the families.
The argument here is that the girl's parents initiated the matter, thus introducing a difficult religious struggle into the school, without any need or prior consent from the girl.
Where did I write that I understood differently? I don't understand your argument, and in any case I answered all the arguments in your words.
Again you insist unnecessarily. I brought an example from Mehadrin training not because that is the situation at school. But in a school where that was the norm, it was appropriate to give up. I demonstrated a point, and that's all. And by the way, a child of two lesbians does not interfere less with education at school, but you are probably already used to that.
Ramada”a – Hello,
There is a difference between a child of two lesbians and a child who behaves like a boy, as the first does not behave in the school setting that is not according to the Torah, while the second violates the laws of the Torah within the school and her parents demand that the religious school recognize their requirements, allow her to dress as a boy and address her as masculine.
They can send their daughter to the religious school, but instruct her to behave in the school setting in accordance with the code of conduct required there according to the Torah.
Best regards, Ofer Bedan Mellav-Moskroner
In paragraph 1, lines 3-4
… They demand that the religious school recognize their demands…
In paragraph 1, lines 3-4
… They demand that the religious school recognize their demands…
If the root of the problem lies with the parents, then the welfare authorities should intervene and remove the girl from the parents' custody on charges of abuse.
On the 27th of Elul, February 2nd, 2019
I have no intimate knowledge of what is happening at the school, but from what has been published in the media, it appears that the parents of the children in the class who were horrified by their children's exposure to transgenderism were suggested to send their children for supportive psychological treatment. And here I really understand what 'makes them jump'.
It must be said that in any case, children are exposed to situations in which one of their friends behaves differently from those around them, and this often causes them to reject him or mock him. And it is worth noting that part of the religious education that parents want to instill in their children is not to whitewash their friend in public, even if he behaves strangely, and even if he violates Torah prohibitions.
If the school is called "Moreshet Neriah", you can tell the children about Rabbi Neriah who joined the Bnei Akiva movement when there were mixed dances there, and he patiently improved the religious situation there beyond recognition and inspired the Bnei Akiva boys and girls to love the Torah. If before the founding of Bnei Akiva, the situation was that most graduates of Mizrahi education left religion, then the religious youth movement, with all its flaws, changed the situation and led to the creation of a generation of Torah lovers who are proud of their faith and observance of the commandments.
You can explain to the children that the girl's parents are wrong and are drawn to distorted opinions, but it is forbidden to harm the girl herself and shame her. And yet continue to fight the school and the education system and firmly demand that the girl dress in girls' clothing, as the Torah requires. I don't think a psychologist is needed for that. When parents explain – children understand.
Best regards, Ofer Bedan Mellav-Moskroner
Hello and thank you for the analysis. Although I think the problem with ’moderate queerness’ is that it contradicts feminism (at least extreme feminism) which holds that there is no significant difference between a man and a woman, and a girl does not have to play with dolls, be delicate, wear dresses and put on makeup, and can love soccer and admire athletes, be strong in exact sciences and do reverse. According to feminism, there is no reason for such a girl to declare that she is a boy, and such a declaration is really completely empty. There is only sex and there is no such thing as a gender animal.
Such feminism does seem delusional to me, but it is quite common today and it only gets along with extreme queerness and not with moderate queerness.
I didn't understand the argument. Let's say it doesn't fit with some shade of feminism. So what? This shade of feminism came from Sinai and everything has to fit it? By the way, as I noted, less radical feminism also opposes trans people precisely because they challenge the definition of femininity. There are fifty shades of feminism, and this whole issue is quite exhausting and uninteresting to me.
The argument is that 'moderate queerness' will not really help resolve this conflict, because it does not fit with the progressive view prevalent today. So it is better to stick with the simple definition of gender, which is exactly the same as sex. In short, inventing a new definition of gender does not contribute anything.
In reality, there is gender dysphoria. It has nothing to do with any particular feminist ideology. It is about reality, not ideals. Now, you can bury your head in the sand and close your eyes (you can do both), or you can look reality in the eye and offer tools for coping. Moderate queerness is a code name for containing and dealing with difficult cases, as opposed to the abolition of the sexual and gender divisions of extreme progressivism.
I'm not sure there's a real debate between us. I'm also in favor of including the difficult cases and dealing with them. There are certainly men (in either sex) who have traits that appear more in women and vice versa, and we should be sympathetic to them (not condescendingly). But that doesn't mean we need to invent new definitions for man and woman (or give up definitions altogether), and in my opinion, such inventions don't contribute anything.
It's better to simply find a way to tell a man that he can do almost anything he wants to do, even as a man (and also as a woman as a woman). Of course, in cases where there are halachic problems with this, it will be necessary to think of an appropriate solution, and there won't always be a perfect solution, but ”cisgender’ people have such problems too.
The feeling when reading the post is that you are not at all informed about what the debate is about.
You portray Matt Walsh as if he is dealing with an extreme phenomenon and ignores the moderate and accepted opinion, but the opinion you present as extreme is indeed delusional, but not extreme at all.
Hollywood is all caught up in this delusional confide, with which most of the media in the US, not to mention Western Europe.
The moderate opinion you present here would be burned at the stake there, look at J.K. Rowling, who is by the way a progressive herself and agrees with them on 99% of the delusions, for the one percent they burned her completely, she is singled out because of disgust and no one thinks of working with her.
In addition, you are at length in order to claim that the phenomenon exists, I do not know a conservative who fights the phenomenon and does not admit that there are men who feel like they are women, what is the question here? Of course they exist, it is a fact, no one argues with that. Matt Walsh would certainly admit this, as would Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson, there is no debate about that.
Regarding your claim about illness, even according to your wording, both sides, the progressive and the conservative, were supposed to admit that it is an illness, the progressives in most cases resort to surgery, the conservatives would refer for psychiatric treatment, in other words, everyone admits that it requires treatment, in other words, it is an illness. Here too, you will not find a single person on the progressive wing who would be willing to say this, but they will not say it, in their opinion I am not allowed to say it either, that is the point, this is the war.
Accounts are being blocked today on social media because people say that a man is a man, a really violent statement.
You present the conservatives as if this is not an ideology, I do not understand this claim, people are fighting for the truth.
Also, the approach you present as moderate, in my opinion is not moderate at all, why would I change my way of speaking because a human being decided this morning that he is a woman? And if he feels dog-like? And if he feels like a demon? I'm not just taking it to the extreme, it exists, there are a lot of people who want to be treated like dogs, demons, elves, their majesty and other things that make them look bad, should we take their word for it?
And if you do take it to the extreme, if LeBron James were to say tomorrow that he was a woman, would you also take his statement? Because there is no shortage of thugs who claim to be a woman.
There are also many who think that they have the right to change their gender every day according to how they feel in the morning, and of course anyone who addresses them incorrectly hurts them. I hope you stay informed every morning so that God forbid you don't hurt them, it's clear that their gender really changes every day, it's lucky that they update us with this absolute truth.
In addition, you pretty much accept here that surgery can help the situation but psychological therapy can't help, a strange assumption that is not supported by any research.
Another point that you don't pay attention to (probably because you don't understand the magnitude of the phenomenon) is how much this attitude itself creates these distortions and mental illnesses, many girls go through a tomboy phase in their childhood. Once they would let it pass, today they fix it and confuse them, giving them the feeling that this is their identity, it's part of them, it's what they are, and thus temporary curiosity becomes fixed and creates suffering for years to come because of the confusion and internal contradiction.
In the end, the war is more than anything about freedom of speech, which the so-called progressive side for some reason strongly opposes. They won't decide for me what to say and what not to say, and certainly not what is true and what is false.
Rani Shalom. This is the most demagogic and delusional message I've seen in a long time, and I'm not exaggerating. I'm quite shocked, and it's especially surprising when it comes from you. You repeat things I wrote in the column itself and explain that I didn't notice them and that I'm not aware of them. You miss my main point, and then attack another point that I agreed with. You repeat over and over again about the important war on extremists when I'm talking about the attitude towards moderates. This message of yours is the most important illustration of why this column is necessary (and why it's probably not helpful, unfortunately). Is it possible that here too, as in your previous message, anger has gotten the better of you?! So I suggest you take a breath and calm down (really, this is not a letdown at your expense), and now read the details calmly:
1. Not only do I know what the war is about, but it's even written in my column. I really don't understand what you wrote. This extremist opinion is indeed worthy of the fight and is indeed harmful, and that's how I wrote it. But it is not right to attack those with a more moderate position because of the fight against extremists. So far, I think we both agree, and that is the only thing I wrote. So what are you commenting on? Do you think that in Givat Shmuel it is about the extremist position? Where do you get that from? All the evidence shows that it is absolutely not. The daughter did not just want to be considered a boy, but because of her gender feelings. This is absolutely the moderate position.
2. It is clear to me that Matt Walsh is not denying the factual phenomenon. Where did I write that it is? On the contrary, I said that every reasonable person accepts it.
3. The question of how many extremists and how many moderates there are is not at all important to the principled debate. Fight the extremists and leave the moderates aside. If there are many of them, then fight the few against the many and we will write a broad epic in your memory and also say Hallel.
4. Beyond that, I think you are also factually wrong. The fact that all kinds of radicals are circulating in the media and academia does not mean that they are the majority. Absolutely not. These are the loud and annoying ones, and by the way, that's why they get a lot of attention in the media and in your consciousness. This is definitely not the majority position. But as mentioned, this discussion is not at all important to our issue.
5. Beyond all of this, because people don't make this distinction, many of those who want to support the moderate version find themselves supporting the extremist. And the same thing happens to opponents who want to oppose the extremists and oppose everyone (like you). The war against everyone as you suggest only encourages this confusion. That's exactly why I extended my words, because people really don't distinguish, even though it's a simple distinction. I'm surprised you don't understand that this is exactly the problem the column is intended to address. So why not extend it?! Your words are the best proof why the column is important and why I'm completely right.
6. The question of what a disease is also causes a lot of confusion, even though it's completely simple and should be agreed upon by all sides. That's exactly where all the idiotic insults and insults you mentioned in your words come from. That's exactly why it's important to clarify this.
7. I wrote about changing the way of speaking myself. The demand is indeed problematic on both sides, but on the other hand it's not really important (unless it's a fight against the extreme position). Here again your demagogy returns, which blames it on someone waking up in the morning and deciding they're a man or changing their gender every day. Again you've added the extreme position here, even though we're talking about the moderate one. And after that I said not to prolong it?!
8. The fact that treatment (I'm talking about conversion therapy) cannot help and in many cases also causes serious damage is supported by a lot of research. Regarding trans people, it's clear that it's helpful in many cases, but I don't know if it's helpful in all of them (probably not). So this is your demagogy again. It's true that I also suspect such studies of being biased, at least some of them, but suspicion is not equivalent to a contrary scientific conclusion. I certainly don't think it's right to dismiss them all without basis. On the other hand, I don't know any facts about gender conversion. I would be happy if you would enlighten me, and if it exists, I am completely in favor. As a reminder, this is one of the options I raised.
9. The question of fleeting childhood confusions, I am aware of it just as much as you are, and for some reason I even wrote about it in the column. Again you make an argument and explain to me that I am unaware of it when I myself raised it here in this column itself and addressed it. You of course ignore my references. Well, it is as usual.
10. It has nothing to do with the war on freedom of speech. This is again the same demagogy that injects extremism here. By the way, the wars without discrimination that you propose to wage will only increase the frustration that leads to LGBT violence. It stems from frustration with indiscriminate treatment like yours.
Demagoguery.. Demagoguery.. Oh, I remember, demagoguery is, for example, saying in a discussion: “No wonder you talk such nonsense, we already know that anger drives you crazy”? Or is it a logical fallacy, I'm confused.
Anyway, in my opinion, admitting a mistake should add points, certainly not subtract points. (In addition, in the post you are referring to, anger did not “drive me crazy”, I just admitted that I got carried away with the wording).
As for the substance of the matter, I will just point out that in the column itself you write up to this point on the ethical level and move on to the halakhic level, the halakhic discussion did not interest me, so I skipped it and indeed I missed that you returned to the ethical level later, so some of your claims that I ignore your words are for this reason.
In general, you attack me for ignoring your words in the column, I disagree with that, my argument is not that you didn't mention something but that you didn't address it properly, you simply frame everything incorrectly in my opinion.
You treat progressives as an extremist opinion that can be ignored when it comes to the dominant approach in the Western world, I really think you don't understand to what extent and therefore continue to call it extremist even in response, it is a delusional but not extremist opinion, held by most heads of state in the Western world, including the US (Biden is already without an opinion, but his vice president and the majority of the Democratic Party) and including our learned prime minister. In addition, all 5 of the largest corporations in the world hold this opinion, as well as all the major social networks.
In addition, you move aside the conservative opinion as if it simply refers to this small phenomenon called progressivism. The very fact that you think that a conference on the subject should not address progressivism shows in my opinion that you do not understand the magnitude of the phenomenon, on the contrary, not talking about progressivism at such a conference is funny.
I will address two points:
1. Even if the moderate opinion you present were correct (and in my opinion it is wrong) in my opinion, it is very problematic to accept it since there is a war here on our freedom of speech, there is a side here that silence is a legitimate tool for, if they had read Animal Farm they would be happy that the animals won and see no further problem.
In addition, you speak as if it is possible to accept the moderate approach and fight progressivism, this is simply not true, the damage that has already been caused today to many children because of the progressive opinion will only increase if suddenly everyone (= the conservatives, the progressives will not moderate, they do not even know what a debate is) accepts the moderate opinion you present.
2. With respect to the moderate opinion, where does it stop? Where she feels moderate, stop, because she is moderate? What about people who feel demons, elves, dogs, Your Majesty? All of these things are defined things with characteristics, in addition, all of these things have factual people in the world who feel that this is what they are, so we can take their word that this is what they are?
In addition, even if there was a reason to stop at male and female, if there is indeed truth and we are left here with a decision problem, why would we take the word of any random person to answer questions about the world? When has this proven itself to be a good method for answering questions about the world? In my opinion, if I make decisions based solely on vision, I will reach higher success rates. And similarly, in the expectation of the entire population, deciding by eye will be better.
In general, I do not understand why you treat it as if there is a separation between people from the moderate opinion and people from the progressive wing, in the end what I encounter is a person who says that he is a woman, he may have decided this this morning, he may change every day and it may be a process that has lasted for years, how do I know? This is exactly why I claim that taking the word of a random person is funny, if everything is already a lot of nonsense and we are talking about a person confused by Hollywood and social networks.
Just a final note, I strongly disagree with your view on “my indiscriminate war” I am simply asking for freedom to say the reality as I see it, a man is a man, a woman is a woman, calling it an indiscriminate war is demagogy. And every surrender to the progressives to this day has only strengthened them, certainly not reduced the frustration and cooled the war, look how much they have received and it will never satisfy them until everyone agrees with them 100%, different opinions are illegal in their opinion.
PS I do not refer to Givat Shmuel at all because none of us really know what the story is there.
That's also what I'm saying. This whole invention of gender is a bluff. There is a biological sex and that's it. If it was something, why should there even be a female and male gender? And why is there a mismatch according to their method? It's like saying that there should be a match between the political right and left for male or female. And if there is a mismatch, it means there is a problem (it's a disease. It means "mismatch", it's a judgment for evil). If there is feminine or masculine behavior, it means that masculine behavior should belong to the biological sex of a man, and feminine behavior to a woman, but the "man" or "woman" is the biological part. And even if there is no psychological treatment for dysphoria, it doesn't mean that one should mutilate. After all, this surgery (sex change surgery) really doesn't solve anything. It doesn't really change the person's biological sex and the dysphoria remains. It is not clear why Rabbi Michi is trying to adapt himself to the mood of this pseudo-science.
Rani,
Regarding the first part of your statement, I can only repeat what I already wrote because you are ignoring it.
As I wrote, I also completely disagree with your factual assessment, that the extremists are the majority. But I also wrote that it doesn't matter. You put forward an argument that I didn't make, that the extremists can be ignored. Where did I write that? I said that it is appropriate to fight the extremists but not to bring the moderates into this war. You repeat it again and again despite my corrections.
I didn't even write that the extremists are a small phenomenon. You are putting words in my mouth again. I just distinguished between the two phenomena. I have not heard of any head of state who holds this opinion, and in my opinion you are again confusing the extremists with the moderates.
I also wrote that the indiscriminate war (like yours) that does not distinguish between the extremists and the moderates only contributes to the confusion of people, and that is why even those who intend to support the moderate opinion join the extremists. This is what I call an indiscriminate war, and this is exactly what you see with you.
In the second part of your statement, you made a new claim:
1. Because of the war on freedom of speech, we must also persecute those who do not threaten our freedom of speech, and because of the war against extremists, we must not give in to moderates either.
I do not agree with this tactic. On the contrary, in my opinion, an indiscriminate war will not be beneficial, but will only radicalize opposing views and contribute to confusion, as I wrote. Beyond the question of whether it is appropriate to harm innocent people in a justified war. Simply put, it is forbidden.
In addition, my goal is not to make progressives accept the moderate opinion. You are putting words in my mouth again. My goal is to make moderates not switch to supporting extremists (progressives) and to dispel the confusion that causes this, and that you are also a partner in and actually create.
2. The moderate opinion does not stop anywhere. The question is whether the feelings are real or not. If they are real, they are entitled to appropriate treatment. Everything on its own merits. That's why the apocalyptic demagogy you're using here really doesn't impress me. I've had enough of slippery slope arguments. By the way, some of your opponents probably think like you. They are moderates, but if they give in to you, it will be a slippery slope, and that's why they join the extremists.
The diagnosis argument can also go very far. Why treat a person who says they're in pain? You don't know if they really are or if they're just confusing the mind. This level of argument is quite disappointing.
Regarding the freedom to say what you want, I'm completely in favor. For everyone. That's not what the discussion is about, even though you keep coming back to it.
You keep presenting my words as persecution and hurting innocent people.
Who am I persecuting and what innocent people am I hurting? A bunch of delusional people asked me to change the way I have always spoken, I said thank you but I'm not interested, Rabbi Michi came and said but there are the moderates, respect them and don't hurt their feelings, to which I replied no thanks I have already decided for my own reasons not to change, I'm sorry that they are offended, that they should learn not to be offended by any nonsense.
Let me understand, I am persecuting and offensive and unrestrained in that I continue to speak as they have always spoken, referring to a female human as a woman and a male human as a man, if so then I'm sorry, you can present your opinion as moderate, but it is not moderate at all.
By the way, this attitude of treating all those who are offended is not typical of you, I'm pretty sure that a few hundred columns ago you wrote with less respect for the serially offended.
Regarding the point that the moderate approach does not stop anywhere, I really don't understand your arguments anymore:
The progressive approach: If a person says he is a woman/demon/dog/eleph, respect him and treat him as he asks so that he doesn't get offended.
The moderate approach: If a person says he is a woman/demon/dog/eleph, treat him like that, apparently this is the absolute truth in the world.
Yes, I see the moderation, how did I not see it before.
In my opinion, of all the opinions presented, the conservative opinion is the most moderate and the most true.
By the way, your argument that we believe in the sick doesn't hold water, would you say the same about the mentally ill? That's mainly what we're dealing with, after all, that's what I claimed that most people who claim such things are confused by Hollywood and Co. Therefore, their testimony is meaningless to me. And even in the case of a physical illness, no doctor will rush to perform serious treatment based solely on the patient's testimony, especially if he thinks the patient is not 100% for one reason or another, which is the case here, as I explained.
I'm really at a loss. I wrote explicitly that the form of the address is a problematic demand (or not problematic for both sides), and I didn't express any position on it throughout the column and the comments. And you decided to put the demand in my mouth that you address them in the way they want. I only wrote that it makes sense because it is possible to argue that the address will be made according to gender and not according to sex, but to the same extent it makes sense to say that the address will be made according to sex. Therefore, it's a draw.
To remind you, the discussion was about whether to allow a girl to dress up as a boy, and in relation to the address to which I wrote explicitly that I have no position and that we need to reach an agreement on the matter. Not allowing a girl to dress up is indeed an insult to her, because it shouldn't bother anyone. The address is the matter of the addresser as much as the addressee.
Therefore, it should not be concluded from my words that if a person feels like a dog, I will address him like a dog. What I wrote is that I would consider his illness (if his feeling seems sincere to me) just as I consider dysphoria. I want to believe that you would also act this way, otherwise you have a problem with moderation.
As for moderation, you are mixing things up again. I am the world champion in intemperance, and I have never claimed otherwise. The question is intemperance towards what. I show intemperance towards problematic opinions and problematic behaviors (in my opinion). But I definitely try to show moderation towards people who suffer. It has nothing to do with moderation but with reasonable moderation. I am also a murderer and not a robber, although I am not a moderate person. Does that seem contradictory to you?
I must tell you again that the logic of the arguments you raise again and again is so problematic, and the gap with your talent, which I know well, is so great that I recommend that you examine yourself on this matter (I know that this is not stupidity, and therefore it is clear that there are serious biases here). This discussion is really delusional. Not a single word of yours holds water, and every sentence you put into my mouth is a distortion.
It's time to conclude, I think, I completely agree with you that people with gender dysphoria should be considered, like any person with a mental health problem.
I have no doubt that the treatment, certainly for confused children, should not be to look for them to be girls or vice versa and send them to a life of lies and fear of discovery, let alone surgery that is as effective in my opinion as gastric bypass surgery to treat anorexia.
Here is an example of a review by the Swedish Ministry of Health (not suspected of conservatism) that makes the preferred treatment for young people psychological/psychiatric.
https://segm.org/segm-summary-sweden-prioritizes-therapy-curbs-hormones-for-gender-dysphoric-youth
They also raise the question of why the number of children with gender dysphoria has increased so much in recent years? Truly a puzzle, I wish I had an idea.
I would like to take this opportunity to wish you and your family a happy and sweet new year and thank you for your columns throughout the year.
If so, what remains is just to test the effectiveness of treatment. This is already a scientific and not a value-based debate, and I said nothing about that. I will only comment that I do not see how you apply a general statistical claim to every individual case. After all, neither of us know the girl in Givat Shmuel and cannot recommend a treatment/coping method for her. They were in contact with professionals and came to the conclusion that this is the way for her. Are you sure they were wrong? Does every child or person with dysphoria have an effective “conversion treatment” and is every disguise or trans a clinical error? This is a very far-reaching claim, and I doubt (an understatement) whether you have a solid basis for making this claim.
Happy New Year to you too, and with joy.
A girl cannot become a boy even if she is castrated and given a boy's costume (including plastic testicles and tendons). All we will get is a sterilized girl, but we will not get a boy. Therefore, your halakhic argument is simply strange. And if I define myself as a woman, will I be allowed to shave my beard with a razor or remove my wigs?? And if she defines herself as a boy, will she be obligated to the mitzvot of procreation (with the genitals she does not have)?? What kind of strange argument is this? If I received the body of a boy, then the mitzvot of ovaries that apply to boys apply to me. If the girl received the body of a girl, then the mitzvot of girls apply to her and she is exempt from the mitzvot of boys. Castration or sterilization will not change anything (and in my youth I thought to myself that phenomena such as castration and sterilization belong to the Middle Ages and disappeared in the modern period; oh holy innocence).
All that can be learned from the story of the girl in Givat Shmuel is that she should not say, "I cannot wear boys' clothes," but "I cannot wear boys' clothes," and "I cannot wear boys' clothes," and the Lord of the universe forbade it. The Torah recognizes moderate queerness and prohibits it.
The only way to accept your argument is only if you assume that the girl is foolish and therefore exempt from all the commandments. The gap between the state of consciousness and the actual state is so great that it is impossible to assume sanity and therefore she is exempt from all the commandments, including the prohibition on wearing male clothing. It is similar to a person walking on a cliff and saying that he is walking on a level ground. The physical damage from the crash is no greater than the physical damage from sex reassignment surgery. But the flip side of this argument is that if the girl is foolish, there is no reason for a school to accept her. She should go to special settings. This argument is true for this entire reality. Trans men should not use women's restrooms but disabled restrooms and disabled showers. Such a distorted reality should be recognized as a cliff and not as a level ground.
You can accept the argument of gender dysphoria, but as I wrote, it has its flip side. These people should be recognized as foolish and the social attitude should be accordingly.
(And I'm not going into the cultural aspect here that has encouraged the phenomenon in recent years)
Statements are a beautiful thing, but they also deserve to be justified. The moderate queer argument is that the definition of a girl or a boy is not only a matter of sex but also of gender. You may agree or not, but this is the argument you are supposed to deal with. In itself, it seems absolutely reasonable (i.e., acceptable no less than its opposite) and it is difficult for me to see good arguments against it. You decide that this is a distorted reality without reasoning (I said that I have no problem defining it as a disease, because it is an empty phrase), but others think that this is a different reality, and it is no more distorted than the normal one (like a height that is different from the average). Note that their argument is that at least there is freedom to define, and they do not deny those who want to define a girl or a boy through physiology. In this sense, the burden of proof is on you. Firmness is no substitute for reasoning.
I think there is a difference between whether gender is a cause or a sign. If it is a sign of a person's sex, then it should be treated like any sign. This is statistically true, but there are exceptions to every rule. One might ask why they are the exception? Is there a physiological issue here or another (cultural) factor? And yet, an exception does not automatically transfer you to the other side. You need good reasons to decide that the ends of a bell actually belong to a different bell. If it is a cause, then you are exposed to the progressive attack. If gender is not anchored in sex and the physical interests of the body, then it is actually a social construction and becomes relativistic.
In my opinion, gender is a sign. In general, it reflects the interests of the sex and the body. Girls play with dolls to practice being mothers. Boys prefer soccer to practice being hunters. And yet, if a boy plays with dolls, it does not make him a girl. He just enjoys playing with dolls. From an evolutionary perspective, there is no single correct strategy. There is a range of strategies and a male can be a very successful male in terms of fertility and gene transfer by adopting strategies that are perceived as feminine. So now we castrate him because he is not suitable for the usual strategies? What is this bed of Sodom that children are put into?
Personally, I think the whole story stems from too early mixing between boys and girls and the intrasexual competition that places a heavy burden on children at an early stage that they cannot yet withstand. In this competition, boys must adopt extreme boyish strategies in order to be identified as boys (and thus win female partners) and girls must adopt extreme girlish strategies in order to be identified as girls and thus attract female partners. And of course both sexes must adopt heavy strategies such as drinking alcohol and smoking to mark themselves as quality individuals. And what about those who mature slowly? Who do not work on strength but on brains? Who thinks that, with all due respect to football, in the long run a programmer will be a much more successful and attractive partner? What kind of stupid stereotypical world is American culture creating? And I have to embrace this madness?
Here is a link to Gil Greengross's blog on the principle of respect:
https://greengross.wordpress.com/category/%d7%a2%d7%99%d7%a7%d7%a8%d7%95%d7%9f-%d7%94%d7%94%d7%9b%d7%91%d7%93%d7%94/
As I wrote here for someone else in the comments:
If a human were to wake up tomorrow and adopt the behavior of a cat. Walk on all fours and howl, etc. (and eventually demand that you address him as a cat), would you define him as having the gender of a cat? Would you say that he is a human species (Homo sapiens) biologically but has a feline gender (belongs to the cat family – scientific name: Felidae)? Where does the line cross?
To Emmanuel – Greetings,
Those who define themselves as a cat create a problem for those who define themselves as a chicken or a mouse, who are afraid of the cat eating them. Even those who define themselves as a dog – may find themselves driven to bite the cat, especially when they see their self-definition as a cat as a ’thing that’ actually’ 🙂
Therefore, public safety requires that we refrain from defining ourselves as a cat! There are more than enough objects of definition that are not predators!
Best regards, Martin Hindick, ‘Who’ Institute for Autotaxonomy
And another reason to forbid a person from defining themselves as a cat is that cats tend to dig holes in their fur to cover their hooves, and one must assume that someone who defines themselves as a cat will dig holes on Shabbat as well, and therefore Bar Yisrael should be prohibited from choosing the feline gender, because ‘for the gender of a noun’ 🙂
With blessings, Shunra Halevi Katzinger
In the end, the audience made the people laugh
However, although our identity should not be converted to a feline identity, there is room to learn from them some valuable lessons, such as being careful about cleanliness.
Cats also have a nice custom for those they love: when someone they love enters the house, they run to the door to greet him immediately upon entering.
Couples would do well to adopt this nice custom, and when their partner enters the house, they will leave everything for a moment and rush to greet him affectionately as soon as he enters. How much strength there is for a relationship in this.
With best wishes, Shek
Right. Now you have to discuss whether it is a sign or a cause. That is exactly what the debate is about. I understand that you think it is a sign, but what are you arguing against someone who thinks differently, and what do you care if they think differently? Who cares? (I am talking about mild queerness.)
I argue that if this is the reason, then it is difficult to explain why there are only two genders and not an infinite number of genders as progressives claim. That is, if the reason for the existence of boys and girls stems from gender and not from sex, then why do we stop at only two genders and not an infinite number of genders? And if there is no connection between sex and gender but only a circumstantial neighborhood created as a result of social construction, then why do we have to obey this social construction instead of dismantling it as we did with the infinite number of previous social constructions?
In my opinion, progressivism emerges from the internal difficulties of the moderate queer position. The internal difficulties lead to the adoption of a progressive position that claims that there is really no such thing as gender or to a retreat from the queer position in favor of a traditional position. It is not really possible to adopt the original queer position because it has internal difficulties. And if the rabbi nevertheless manages to resolve the internal difficulties of the moderate queer position, then he will earn respect even if not agreement on the achievement. In the meantime, I think it is impossible to adopt the moderate queer position in light of its internal difficulties.
There is no problem with there being an infinity, as long as there are people who really feel that way. It has nothing to do with progressiveness, since progressives do not claim that there is an infinity of genders, but rather that there is no such thing as gender, but rather that a person's statement is in a constitutive position.
I did not understand what difficulties you see in the moderate queer position. I do not see any difficulty in it.
What is the difference between “people who really feel” and “a statement of the person? Apparently it's the same thing. And if there is a possibility of infinite genders, then the concept of gender is not well defined, which is the argument of the progressives.
From what I understood from you in the article, you do not claim that there are infinite genders, but only 2 genders, the division between which is made by all sorts of characteristics that seem arbitrary (playing with dolls, gentleness). You admit that it is arbitrary, but you claim that if it exists, it should be accepted. In the same way, 200 years ago in Europe there were people who considered themselves open and enlightened who claimed this: We agree that the feudal division between nobles and commoners is arbitrary, but it exists and therefore it should be accepted. The list of characteristics of nobles is physical courage, honor, etc. The list of characteristics of commoners is utilitarianism, physical cowardice, etc. Then came the revolutions and it turned out that everything was a lie. If division is arbitrary, it is anyway discriminatory and oppressive and will eventually fall.
On the other hand, I argue that division is not arbitrary but rather expresses the essential interests of the different species, and just as the communist revolution fell because it did not correctly assess the importance of the interests expressed by the market, so too will this revolution fall in due time.
The difference is very big. A large part of the column is devoted to this difference. Does a person define themselves arbitrarily just because they feel like it, or do they report to us the feelings and tendencies they really have (since we have no way of knowing what is in a person's heart).
I did not talk about the question of how many genders there are, but about the question of how and whether they are defined.
And the claim of moderate queerness is precisely that the division is not arbitrary. I feel like I am repeating what I wrote in the column, and I do not understand where the debate is. Whether it will fall or not is the one that has come up for futurists and is not really interesting to me. The question of how I should relate to this today and what the truth is. This is the important question for the discussion.
Well, I don't see a difference. But as you wrote, the discussion seems to have been exhausted.22
Rabbi, thank you very much for the post. It put me in order and greatly complemented the previous post about what a woman is. Thank you for that!
Do you have time to read posts now? I'll tell you thanks. 🙂
Isn't the meaning of the prohibition of "a man's instrument on a woman" a prohibition on transgenderism?
I don't see how else they could have phrased this in biblical times, when there were no surgeries or hormones and the transformation of a man into a woman (or vice versa) was done through clothing alone.
I addressed this in a column. Simply put, yes, although there is room to interpret that the prohibition applies to those whose gender is male or female, and not to those who are designated as such.
According to the sage interpretation of the reason for the prohibition, the prohibition mainly refers to attempting to commit adultery by impersonating the opposite sex.
Perhaps in their minds they foresaw the rape cases in "mixed bathrooms" that we hear about from time to time from the land of Uncle Sam.
Apparently there is some kind of blunder that necessarily involves mixing up ‘debate’ and ‘dispute’ (for your distinction) and I will present it – Let's say I, according to the ”conservative method” (or Whatabar) believe that a person is a man or a woman purely according to their gender even if their gender (in the sensory form and all of the above) is different from their gender. My friend, according to the ”moderate queer method” believes otherwise as stated. What will happen when I do feel my gender differently than my sex? From my perspective, it is likely to hurt me if they approach me according to my gender orientation (although what you are saying means that it is a little harder to believe in this business than the other way around. Who knows, maybe queers are more vulnerable) but according to his method he does indeed have to address me according to my gender orientation purely and not my sexual orientation. A bit of a complicated case, I hope that's understandable. In any case, beyond the debate over definitions, there is also a disagreement between people here in terms of ongoing behavior if each person sticks to their definition. (So anyway, this will probably lead to a refinement of the moderate queer definition to the point of being fishy.)
In addition, I would suggest that it be possible to respond directly after the article and there would be no need to scroll to the end of all the responses. Thank you.
I didn't understand the chatter. First, I haven't established a position on the proper form of address and on the proper consideration of other approaches to the matter. Second, in the case you described, he doesn't have to address you this way, but at most wants to do so. And in general, how is this babbler different from all the usual babblers on the matter?
Forgive me, I did not formulate myself properly, Rabbi, because in cases like these there is a spillover between "argument" and "dispute" and it is not certain that the debate can continue to exist only in a theoretical sense. In the end, we must reach "gabra agbra ka ramit", since each side believes that a person's identity is determined by different things. However, in order to clarify the truth, I will ask Rabbi Tor for a halakhic discussion based on Torah and Sage sources, in which reinforcements and difficulties will be presented, etc., to the point that we need to determine whether the Torah has a view on this issue. Of course, whether the prohibition of not wearing a man's clothing applies to a person who identifies as male even if he feels otherwise, or whether in such a case the prohibition does not apply to him. (Obvious sources to use include Androgynous and Tomtom (isn't it enough to be considered a sin, right?)) I'm just curious whether moderate queerness is halachically legitimate or not. Thank you! Shabbat Shalom.
First, a dispute is a polemic between people that is already disconnected from its value root, that is, from the positions themselves. Not every polemic between people is a dispute in my definition.
I don't think I have anything to write about that. This is an interpretive question, whether it is possible to define a man and a woman in a queer way and not through physiological signs. It is unlikely that evidence can be provided for this one way or the other. It is clear that with Chazal what he determined was the physical signs, but it can be said that this is only due to their perception in their time, when they were not aware of queer phenomena.
Regarding androgynous and tomtom, I don't remember a source that talks about their gender tendencies. It is about the physical signs, and that's it.
Hello
Why do you believe Ms. Negr that they consulted with Rabbi Ariel on this question and not the other way around, Rabbi Ariel claiming that there is no place in halacha for such a thing. Although it must be admitted that neither of their publications makes any explicit claim as to what happened in this specific case.
Why shouldn't I believe her? As I explained, Rabbi Ariel did not deny this, and his words do not contradict the matter. What's more, we've already heard of retrospective denials of this kind.
What I find lacking in the halakhic and factual discussion here (or anywhere else) is the consideration of the fact that, in light of the very high suicide rate among transgender people, there may be an aspect of the law of souls that should influence the way it is addressed.
I would love to hear your opinion both in the specific context and in broader contexts of using the law of souls argument.
In the name of God, the Father
No, no
I don't have data, but from my impression, the data that is distributed in the public domain doesn't have much meaning (and it's no wonder that everyone, as usual, does with it what they feel comfortable with). In order to reach a factual conclusion (even before the ethical implications), one must compare the suicide rate with the rate among people with such tendencies who have not changed their gender. Beyond that, one must take into account the effect of the environment's attitude towards a person, because if suicides are due to the environment's attitude, then the solution is not to make the change but to change the attitude.
But even if you were factually correct, that doesn't mean that such a change shouldn't be allowed. If a person wants to do something that could harm them, it's their right to do it, and whatever happens, it will happen. The same goes for smoking cigarettes, unhealthy eating, and so on. At most, they should be presented with the full factual picture when they make decisions. I assume that this is usually taken into account as well.
What this actually means is that if you hold, as most rabbis probably do, that this is a matter of choice or a compromise between the parents and the girl, the consideration of personal law will only make you intensify the protest against the school and the concealment of the matter, etc. And if you hold, as Rabbi Michi does, that this is a given situation that the girl did not choose, you will probably prefer to accept the girl and her choices as they are. We will see and see as simple as possible…
In response to the question,
No, no, hello,
Apparently, those who see gender dysphoria as a phenomenon without the possibility of change are supposed to support full disclosure of the fact, also so that parents of children who suffer from gender dysphoria, which is probably an incurable disease, can choose whether to integrate their children with children who do not have gender dysphoria or prefer to send their children to special education settings, whose method is supportive care for the dysphoric child 🙂
In contrast, those who see gender dysphoria as a treatable problem There is a situation where it would be preferable to encourage the child's exit from the 'dysphoria', specifically through discreet treatment, as is customary with mental problems whose public disclosure can also be harmful.
Sometimes even a temporary 'flow' with the 'dysphoria' can be a way to release it. This is how the doctor resorted to in the well-known story of Rabbi Nachman about the king's son who thought he was a turkey, that the doctor flowed with the prince and accepted his 'identity', but slowly led him to develop behaviors that correspond to society's expectations.
The problem is when it comes to a 'religious state' school Where creating a precedent of even temporary and even concealed recognition of ’gender dysphoria’, could lead to the imposition of ’regressive progressive’ values on the religious education system, hence the outcry from parents and public figures.
The position of the rabbis in the letters published after the revelation of the affair sounds less outspoken. They did not say that the girl should be removed from the framework, but rather that she should be required to wear girl's clothing and be in a girls' class. Perhaps this is like Rabbi Nachman's advice, to work on developing appropriate behavior before explicitly fighting against consciousness.
Best regards, Martin Hindick
Gender dysphoria is not currently defined as a disease. It is a feeling of distress due to a feeling of gender incongruence. Not everyone who has a gender feeling that does not match the definition according to the definition of the sex at birth (trans) will necessarily feel distress. This distinction was left to allow people to receive assistance from insurance companies and health authorities – It is not a mental health problem.
Anyone who feels like a rooster suffers from a mental health problem, they are imagining a different situation.
A person cannot be a rooster, our genetic distance is too great. On the other hand, there are people who are born with gills or with six fingers or albinos, etc.’ – That is, a deviation from the norm regarding one of their organs. There are people who are born sterile or without a hand or without a uterus. It is not a disease.
All of these situations are not impossible (unlike a person born with a rooster's brain), and albinos, for example, do not imagine that they have a pigment deficiency. Similarly, most trans people do not imagine their situation. It is certainly physically possible that during fetal development the brain undergoes male differentiation but the genitals undergo female differentiation.
In the Wikipedia article on trans people, I provided data from several studies on suicide rates and other aspects such as depression among trans people, and what affects it. There are also recommendations from psychological organizations from the United States. The general recommendation is that if it is a consistent feeling to support the child and not the ”sex assigned to him with his child” (i.e. according to gender, or according to the ”sex” of the brain and not of the genitals). The bad feeling is due to several things – both the attitude of the environment and the feeling of “being stuck in the wrong body” – similarly to how each of us will wake up in the morning and discover that we have characteristics of the other gender – even if everyone tells you it's great, you will still likely feel uncomfortable.
This is the opposite of smoking or eating unhealthy – At least in most cases - it is precisely the insistence on determining gender by genitals and not by the brain that creates harm to a person. Even when there are all the best intentions. You simply need to approach without prejudice and emotions, while taking into account that not every boy or girl who thinks they are trans is necessarily so, so you should also consult with professionals.
This issue is being pushed by the extreme leftist media. They hate religion.
Because they are pushing this issue on television and in the movies, we have been encountering this phenomenon recently, and a lot.
By the way, an interesting point from Judaism is about Amalek, the cruel people from the Bible.
There was a rabbi who said that Amalek in gematria is "doubt." And these are the postmodernists and agenda pushers of our time who want to cast doubt on absolute truth and the Torah of God.
That's it, all the propaganda is just inventing topics, that we in the court, which is of course devoid of any agenda, have long known (within the framework of the absolute truth that is only found here straight from Sinai) that there is no such thing at all. Extreme leftists like them. Burn them all.
Oh, and there was also a rabbi who said that the left nutricon is “not there”, which proves that Amalek with the kollel is a lie, and doubt without the kollel is also a lie. Proverbs
Hello Rabbi,
I can generally accept your position regarding the approach to transgenderism, but still in the specific case it seems to me that you are making assumptions about reality, without any basis.
This is what you wrote: “I will add here the assumption that the parents there probably hold the moderate approach. It is likely that they are not demanding a fundamental right for the girl to define herself just because she feels like it, but are making a factual claim: her feelings and inclinations appear masculine even though on the sexual level she is a girl. It is very unlikely in my opinion that without significant reasons reasonable religious parents (from Givat Shmuel) would enter into such an adventure, just to promote a progressive agenda”.
I am not ruling out this possibility, I am suggesting another possibility, and I would like to know why the second possibility seems less appealing to you.
Maybe the story is different: maybe the daughter does not really identify with the male gender. This is a very young girl, who changed her external characteristics before entering school, at kindergarten age. Perhaps as a toddler she blurted out some sentence or played some game, which implied to her parents that she was not closed about her gender. The parents, who are influenced by liberal education and sanctify freedom, were alarmed by her words and gave her freedom of action and even encouragement to open her cards, and ”choose a gender as she pleases”.
The educational staff involved in the secret of the matter also believes in these values, or is simply afraid and afraid of paying a heavy price (public and personal) if it is discovered that they did not support the girl's free will, and therefore supported the parents' choice. In such a situation, things rolled like a snowball, until a joint decision was made that the girl would become a boy.
I do not understand why the first option is preferable. You wrote that these were ’reasonable religious parents from Givat Shmuel’, but you did not mention that you know them personally. This is not a guarantee, of course, that their conduct is reasonable and logical in every situation.
I am not saying that the second option I suggested is necessary, but it is possible.
Given that there is such an option, the opposition of the other parents is very understandable. They think that such decisions are made by the parents without discretion, and are supported by the educational staff because of concern and fear of the values of the liberal elite (as you yourself noted that both sides are full of emotions and prejudices). This leads to a feeling of a value vacuum, which you insisted on. They fear that the progressive atmosphere leads to wrong decision-making and poor education.
Why does my description sound less to you?
I would be happy to comment!!!
It could also be that these were not the parents but two demons impersonating them. And in general, it is possible that everything is a journalistic fake. I am surprised at you, there are many other possibilities that you did not bring up.
Beyond all the sarcasm, the Givat Shmuel case is not the issue. The question is what to do and how to treat such cases.
By the way, even if the parents acted irrationally, most of my arguments are valid.
If the parents acted illogically, what are the arguments? Why, why?
This is a precedent that every time a similar case occurs, the system will go crazy and act illogically!!!
Rabbi, I don't understand why students or friends who would love you and even your opinions let their hearts join in celebrating their arguments whenever it goes against their views as if you had personally hurt them. I testify on earth (heaven I am not 100% wrong) that even when you wrote about Haredim, of whom I am one of the most extreme (a Lithuanian of the breed of Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky zt”l), the most difficult things were never in my heart. I try to write my opinion with the addition of cynicism and nothing else.
And as an introduction to the matter, I will begin with a story (possibly true) that is told about a secular woman from the common people who asked two lecturers at different times why it is forbidden to use a plate on Shabbat. Isn't that starting a fire? The first lecturer, hey, is Rabbi Mordechai Neugerschel, who explained the halakhic and scientific matter to her with the greatest skill and in terms that explode foreign Hebrew. A true, halakhic, reasoned answer, as they say, is the truth of the Torah. The problem is that the woman did not understand, on the other hand, when she asked the Rabbi Amnon Yitzhak answered her, "Haha My suggestion? (And maybe there is a connection between the two parts of my response here. These are two sides of the same coin, and it is possible that I am a commoner as a woman who, above all, has an understanding of such complex concepts.)
Heating can occur due to fire (which is a chemical process involving oxygen) or due to other processes such as – friction, microwave radiation, sunlight radiation, resistance of a material to electrical flow (as in a light bulb, an electric hotplate). The fact that something is hot (its molecules move faster) does not mean that it is fire. So Amnon Yitzhak's explanation is incorrect, it only seems that way because it is intuitive.
The Rabbi may not agree, but I think there are things where anger and lack of communication should be allowed to run wild. There is a reason they exist among us, man is not a robot, and there is a place for that too, and if not in delusional and contrary to human nature things like these then I don't know what is.
Rabbi, there is a battle going on here, whether the Rabbi wants it or not, and between the side that will try to understand the side against which he will lose in the end.
I don't understand how the Rabbi can stand indifferently against such things, and I don't need to explain how WRONG it is.
This requires a long and complex response. Some of it is answered in the Wikipedia entries “Transgender’ and ”Human Embryonic Development” to both of which I have contributed extensively.
Throughout history, people's definition of what a “woman” is has changed, as the film asks. At first, they said – it's simple – anyone born with female genitalia. But even in ancient times, they came to the conclusion that it's not so simple because there are rare cases in which people are born without genitalia or with double genitalia, etc. In modern times, they began to refer to things like XX or XY chromosomes, but even this does not constitute a binary division because of cases of XXY and XYY, etc.
There may be several explanations for the transness, but it seems that the first explanations that came up – Such as the one that speaks of a sinner, possessed by a demon or simply gone crazy – are not true at all. In the past, most psychologists and doctors believed in the explanation of a psychological disorder, the more findings were discovered, the more this idea declined – among other things because of the lack of success “treating” this ”disorder” – and even vice versa – failure to recognize the person's ”claim” usually led to psychological problems of depression, mental distress, suicide, etc. ’.
The most logical explanation for transness is that most of the women we meet actually have several characteristics – They have XX chromosomes, while they are in their mother's womb they develop genitals, gonads, brain accordingly, while men develop differently during pregnancy and grow gonads, genitals and changes in the brain as well. Usually there is a complete match between all these characteristics – between the brain, the gonads, the glands, the genetic load – and this is because usually the instructions written in the genetic code are implemented by the body of the fetus and the body of the woman giving birth to create a new creature – similar to the way construction workers implement the instructions given to them by the builder
But sometimes it is not so – The building instructions are not always implemented by the builders as given – A common example of this is malformations in children due to teratogenic substances. Another example is cases of abnormal development of genitals. The most logical explanation for trans people is that the development of the male/female brain is determined by the development of the rest of the body's organs, but this is not always the case. Sometimes a female brain organ is formed when the rest of the body's organs are male or vice versa.
The brain is a complex organ, so it is not always possible to talk about a completely binary division between males and females - the most likely thing is that there is a kind of continuum in which there are, say, 300 different traits, of which it is likely to find that most have one trait and most men have the opposite trait. Usually, a woman is expected to have, say, 290 distinctly female traits, with, say, 10 that are closer to men, while among men the situation is the opposite. Not all differences are psychological and functional. There are also differences in the average size of the brain and in substructures within the brain between men and women.
The findings of several studies have found that trans people do not just imagine that they are women, a review of the physiological structure of their brains has shown that they have a “female” brain. It is not possible to change the physiological structure of the brain, and there is no evidence that psychological or conscious training or any kind of mental trauma can change the physiological structure of the brain.
The fact that there is not necessarily a binary division explains why there are also differences between trans people – Some trans people are “women born in a man's body” – that is, more precisely – her brain is a “male” body part, while the rest of her body parts are “female” While among other transsexuals, it is about fluidity (sometimes feeling like a man and sometimes like a woman) or a kind of mix of femininity and masculinity without the desire or ability to necessarily identify with a man or a woman.
This explanation (changes during pregnancy) explains, for example, why no social explanation (such as abusive parents, progressive parents, child education, media, etc.) or genetic explanation for transness has been found – It is neither one nor the other – although there may be genetic conditions that allow a greater possibility of a fetus developing that will eventually be trans. This explanation also corresponds with another issue that is ignored by most camps – The problem of many teratogenic factors that are in our environment – Even if we have not taken medication – Originating from persistent organic pollutants due to exposure to trace combustion substances, PCBs, and other substances that reach us through water, food, air pollution and can accumulate in the human body or in the bodies of animals that people eat (bioaccumulation)
Today there is more awareness of trans people, their percentage stands at about 0.3% to 0.6% in society – It is difficult to know because many of them are “in the closet”. It is difficult to know the exact number because even today there are cases where people, especially from conservative backgrounds – will reach states of depression and suicide or addiction to hard substances – provided that they do not come out of the closet. The increase in the rate of trans people observed in society could be due to the fact that society accepts them more. If there is an increase in the rate of trans people – which is not at all clear – It may be due to increased exposure to teratogenic substances or other aspects (for example, giving birth at an older age).
I will not go into all the refutations of the claims about “education” causing transsexualism, but I will mention cases in which trans people “discovered” their identity at the age of 3 (the age at which even cisgender people – the majority of the population – express their gender identity), cases of trans people in a closed Haredi society and among closed Christian sects (i.e. they never knew such a thing existed) and trans people who grow up in conservative Christian families, etc.’ – that is, without anyone “encouraging” them to be trans.
The term sex change surgery is not accurate. In terms of a certain definition, we do not change the sex of a person, if we stick to the terms of genetics, it is still a person with XY. In another sense, the definition is also not accurate, since they defined the person as “male” based on the fact that at birth we saw that he had male genitals – while no one performs such a test on his brain. Therefore, “gender adjustment” is a more acceptable and logical term. We adjust the rest of the body parts – or at least some of them or their appearance (not all trans people undergo all the surgeries) to the identity that the brain perceives – because the opposite attempts – to adjust the structure of the brain organ and the structure of the genitals – have led to very bad results.
Trans people are persecuted for no wrongdoing. There are places where they are in danger of being ostracized by their family or society, experiencing violence (even today, even in Israel) because of ostracization from their family and discrimination by employers, and many in society have difficulty finding work, and many are pushed to the margins, for example to work in prostitution. This is reminiscent of phenomena such as the ostracization of people with mental problems centuries ago or phenomena of persecution, sometimes to the point of death, of albinos in Africa. We do not blame albinos because they were born with white skin, but many in our society accuse trans people of being crazy or evil or of being part of a hidden agenda to undermine conservative theses
Two final notes.
The progressive movement is a very interesting movement, its foundations in the early 20th century in the United States, and then it changed both parties there. The fundamental claim of this movement is that science can and should serve humanity in order to achieve a better life. And it has passed many social reforms, most of which are with us to this day – Such as the mandatory labeling of food products, the Food and Drug Administration, the Antitrust Authority, and more. This is because another idea of the progressive movement emerged against the backdrop of a backlash against the era of the “robber barons”, and this idea was that the state should intervene in the market from time to time in order to maintain freedom and economic competition. Of course, there is no identity between the fundamental idea of the progressive movement and postmodernism. These are almost opposite movements, at least in their origins. Today, there are various and strange “progressives” who have taken it to all sorts of places, but the core of the movement is not there, just as there is no point in discussing Judaism according to a religious Haredi who murdered a girl in the Pride parade.
The second comment is that this entire discussion shows how science can indeed be relevant to moral questions. People who say “a man cannot become a woman” are simply not accurate – They assumed from the outset that everyone who appears to us at birth as male necessarily has a complete match between the brain and the genitals. And that there is necessarily a binary division between men and women.
For further expansion – seesee also ” Teratogenic substances” in Eco Wiki, the book “Our Stolen Future” , and entries on substances like PCBs. There is also an entry on “The Progressive Movement” there.
Citizen Dror, two questions.
First question: If I understood correctly, and if what you are saying here is accepted by the mainstream of researchers (and I am not at all sure of this), then even then it is a little more than half a percent of the population. And in fact much less because within this 0.6 you can play with the definition according to the agenda and methodology of the scientist.
Did I do justice to what you said?
Second question: I am not sure what moral value your innovation has, assuming it is accurate.
Can you give me an example of a policy change that could be made in society that would do more justice to trans people? I mean a change that is not at the expense of those who are not trans.
The data in various surveys is between 0.3 and 0.6 percent. I haven't seen other surveys. What is the scientist's "agenda and methodology?" What does a scientist have to "prove" by saying that there are 0.3 or 0.6? What does it matter if there are 0.003% trans people? Or 0.3%? How many albinos are there in Africa? How many Jews are there in China? Does it make a difference in the way you expect them to be treated?
This is not "my" innovation; I am simply trying to debunk common prejudices, such as the claim that "this is a man who thinks he is a woman" - when the speakers think they know for sure who is born a man. There is also not much innovation in the moral realm.
What is the moral value of "this is a man who thinks he is a woman"? Do not assume that it is imagination madness sin. Treat your biological knowledge with tolerance and humility (since what seems to people “natural” and ”obvious” is not so in many cases) – according to the simple rule – and love your neighbor as yourself and ”the way of the land preceded the Torah”
Examples of change that would do justice to trans people:
– Do not force someone to dress / name / pronoun according to their genitals. Identity is not determined by these genitals in the brain.
– Listen to trans people just as you would listen to another person, talk to them instead of about them.
– Do not mock someone for their gender difference.
– Help trans people integrate into society (not discriminate in employment, transactions and any other social interaction just as we do not think it is right to discriminate against a disabled person, say, or an albino person)
– Help them if they need psychological assistance / gender adjustment (even without any cruelty on the part of society, being trans can be a difficult experience, it should not be made even more difficult, on the contrary)
“A change that is not at the expense of those who are not trans.” – I do not think this is a universally reasonable demand.. For example, when I drive politely around someone else, it is clear that I pay a price – Let's say I am forced not to pick my nose near other people. When I drive on the road, I am forced to drive more slowly near pedestrians. Etc. ’. It is clear that I pay a price for this. Society pays a price when it installs Braille buttons for the blind or makes crosswalks accessible to the disabled. We stand up for the elderly on the bus – There is always a price for moral behavior, the question is not whether we pay a price but whether the price is proportionate. For example, is insulting something so that you can maintain prejudices proportionate even at the cost of risking your life? In my opinion, not.
On the other hand, it is possible that the ”high” price that we will have to pay for the absorption of trans people – that is, to act according to the rule ” and love your neighbor as yourself” also in relation to them – may be worth it to us – For example, one day we will be old, and maybe we will also be happy that they will not pick our noses. It is possible that your child or your sister's child will be born trans and then you will be happy that society is not cruel to him. Another way in which we can benefit is by having a more tolerant society with more points of view – a more diverse society and therefore also a more interesting one.
First of all, I would like to point out, although in my opinion it is not that relevant to the discussion, that I am a teacher and educator in special education and this year I have 3 trans students. So I also have a practical, albeit marginal, interest in this discussion
The second point is the importance of the data. You yourself bothered to bring them up and therefore I thought you understood their relevance. I am no longer sure of this. In addition, you insisted that science is indeed relevant to morality. Science, as you know, is based on data. If these are not important to you, perhaps you should reconsider whether you are interested in dragging it into morality. If so, my opinion is that the data is indeed relevant in certain contexts, and this is despite the fact that I am a moral deontologist (emphasizing intentions rather than actions or results). And yet a deontologist does not have to be naive and the facts and the benefit expected from relying on them have great moral value. Therefore, if there is a minority within a minority for a certain group in relation to others (Jews, Arabs, redheads or trans people), this should be taken into account in relation to any social and moral decision and considered on the merits of the matter whether a certain concession to that group is not too great. For example, the demand of radical transgenderism to allow someone who was born a man to compete against women in professional sports is outrageous in my opinion. This demand is often raised on behalf of that radical trans wing, and among their other arguments is your argument, that even though they are a minority among “women” and despite their innate physical advantages, “they deserve to define themselves” according to this and therefore compete with women from birth. To compete with what some call real women.
Third, I don't have a problem with what you called "examples of change that would do justice to trans people." As I said, I apply this (or at least try to) in my daily life. These are self-evident norms to me, even if they are applied too little.
Fourth, I asked a clinical criminologist who deals with sexuality about the theory you put forward here about "sexual zones" in the brain in the context of trans identity. He had never heard of such a thing. Interesting.
Fifth, you conclude by saying that you want a more "diverse and interesting" society here. That's even more interesting. Personally, I think life is too interesting and I would be happy to reduce the dosage. As for diversity, well, I would prefer a more just society and compromise in favor of a little more homogeneity. But that's me.
The data matters – but only in context, that is, what question are you trying to answer.
One of the questions is, for example, whether this is a non-existent phenomenon or how rare it is. This is important for these questions. One of the problems with measurement is that in the past, trans people were only considered as something binary (a woman born with a female brain and the rest of her organs are male), but today the definitions also refer to the spectrum. And another problem is conservatism in the closet, etc. So it will take time until there are reliable enough measurements of the percentage of the population. In any case, another indicator is how many people say they know trans people personally. And it rose from 17% to 35%, so I assume it is an increase in the willingness to admit the identity and also in the willingness of the families to admit it.
In my opinion, requiring trans women to participate in women's sports competitions seems unfair to me too. For obvious reasons – apart from the brain, their muscles and height are generally better adapted to the genitals. I think a framework like the pre-Olympic competitions is more appropriate.
Thank you. Unfortunately, this is a rather rare thing, for example, even secular society still does not understand trans people and discriminates against them, not to mention more conservative societies like religious Jews or Muslims. There are also quite a few politicians and organizations who are happy to say that trans people are because of liberals progressives cartoons or any other strange reason. And a tendency to blame them (as if they choose it) or justify cruel behavior.
Example of explanation
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-are-some-people-transgender/
Example of research
https://ceres-prod.literatumonline.com/doi/abs/10.4158/EP14351.RA
The main thing for me is maintaining the correct value of “Love your neighbor as yourself” Even in relation to people who are "different", as we apply it in relation to the disabled/albinos or pregnant women (who are not sick but in a different state of health and therefore their needs are taken into account). Along with another aspect that is important to me, which is that justice is usually related to truth.
I will just comment that the impression you get from your words, correct me if I'm wrong, is that the transgender identity people choose for themselves is not influenced by their social and cultural environment. If that is your claim, it is inconsistent with the rate of trans people coming out of the closet in recent decades in light of the sexual permissiveness of our time. The claim that transgenderism is a "natural" or innate fact distorts reality because it is clear that the growing legitimacy of the phenomenon can affect (albeit in different directions) its gender expression. If that is the case, the moral debate should take place around this, not around the crazy agendas of the dark conservatives and the equally dark progressives. I personally do not have enough experience with the trans people I work with. With them to present a relevant impression, especially when it comes to young people. But the gut feeling that I get from the way they and their friends (most of them straight) talk at school is that there is too much radical and confused "anti-judgmental" ideology. In the philosophy classes I teach, for example, any "critical" statement against trans people will receive the stupid title of "racism."
As an expert in philosophy, you jump to conclusions.
There have been more trans people in recent years. But no one knows why – Is it because of more courage to come out (before that, such people might have lived a lie, committed suicide, gone crazy, and got addicted to drugs)
Is it because of “social contagion” (So far, they have not been able to reproduce the claims of this theory in studies, and contrary to the claims of some conservatives – it is also seen among older people – surveys by the PEW Institute)
Is it because of changes in the environment (for example, a report published in April 2019 indicates that PFAS substances can be found in the breast milk of women!! from a wide range of countries. The concentrations measured are much higher than the concentration considered safe by various government agencies around the world)
A 2021 study published in the journal Environmental Science & Technology found toxic chemicals in 100% of breast milk samples tested. Scientists from Toxic-Free Future, Indiana University, the University of Washington, and the Seattle Children's Research Institute led the study. The study claims that toxic PFAS (per- and polyfluorinated substances) – including new-generation compounds currently in use – accumulate in human bodies. Despite assurances from the chemical industry that PFAS in current use do not accumulate in people, the study finds that detections of these chemicals in breast milk are on the rise worldwide and are doubling every four years.
The problem is that there are hundreds of thousands of such chemicals and some of them bioaccumulate (meaning their concentration in the environment is zero, their concentration in plants is slightly higher and their concentration increases as animals eat them) accumulate in the body and can affect pregnancy. This is precisely the main direction that – But it is very difficult to study and is less “sexy” compared to the conservative theory of “social contagion”
https://rotter.net/forum/scoops1/773071.shtml
It's worth reading everything to the end.
Even those who want to contain moderate queerness need to understand that in the end, as a social phenomenon, it ends up here.
The situation in the US is catastrophic even among Jewish populations - children, youth, young people, students... and within Jewish institutions.
Very soon we will reach this point in Israel as well.
We live in one of the most despicable and false periods in history.
With our stupidity and our helplessness, we are amplifying terrible suffering.
I'm giving a huge thumbs up here, but I believe that a great deal of the religious public, even the most conservative of them (perhaps even some of the ultra-Orthodox), understand (in terms of emotional intelligence) the need to be attentive to situations of gender dysphoria, with a moderate queer approach as you defined so perfectly in the article. But here's the thing, on the other hand, today it's really hard to attribute such queerness to criticism of extremism. For example, the recent affair with the launch of the book "Irreversible", which turned into an "all-out war" between the religious-rights, etc. and LGBT organizations, even though the book itself, in my opinion, expresses a moderate and completely sane queer statement (for example, according to what emerges from the entirety of the writing there - a situation like in Geva is completely acceptable, this is part of the proposed maneuvering room (which, by the way, publicists on the subject, like the author of the book, and like Dalit Suter (=Gali Bat Horin) - preach it, and surprisingly find a listening ear even in the Haredi public (something a thousand LGBT organizations in the world would not have been able to achieve, not even in terms of awareness and vigilance on the matter)). So if today's discourse (on the social, media level, but not necessarily on the therapeutic level, but after all, society has an enormous influence after all the learned explanations) pushes involuntarily towards extremism, What will the dos do and not sin by going to the other side?
(By the way, in connection with what you commented about the materialists - some time ago I met with a Haredi "Kabbal" (in the theoretical definition of the word, not a person who distributes amulets), and somehow I also asked him about the LGBT issue (we got to this through a question about the "flaw of the covenant", etc.), and as I suspected - it was from him that I received a compassionate answer, this is only natural for someone who looks at things through a spiritual-internal prism (including regarding reincarnation, etc.) more than at their materiality, so that a supposedly "primitive" perception can produce not-uninteresting phenomena).
In 2021, Dr. Christopher Ferguson, a professor of psychology at Stetson University and a member of the American Psychological Association, published a critique of the book. He argues that, contrary to the view presented in the book, it is possible that both of the following could be true: A. Most people who identify as trans, including teenagers, are indeed trans and will benefit from gender-affirming treatments. B. There may be a subset of individuals who, as young adults, identify as trans but have other mental health conditions such as borderline personality disorder or autism spectrum disorder that cause identity confusion, and these individuals may benefit less from medical procedures.
Ferguson criticized several of the book's implicit assumptions, claiming that the author is obsessed with Internet exposure as a cause of transness, and calling her understanding of the science "superficial." He also criticizes the book's assumption that gender identity is socially constructed, when in his opinion most of the evidence points to a biological phenomenon related to the hypothalamus and exposure to the presence of androgen in the uterine environment, and that it is not something that is easy to change.
Despite the criticism, he does not think that all the claims in the book are completely wrong. Among other things, he argues that there is little information on boys and girls in the field, so it is difficult to even know whether there is an increase in the proportions of trans women compared to trans men. He also shares the concern that sometimes people rush to seek gender-affirming medical treatment when it is a different psychological condition.
One of the problems of the conservative camp is that it clings to ideas of social contagion in transness – Something for which they have not yet been able to find good evidence (details about “rapid onset of gender dysphoria”). On the other hand, the conservative camp continues to ignore the main explanation – possible effects of hormone-disrupting substances.
More evidence against “social contagion” is that conversion therapy for trans people does not help at all (on the contrary – like conversion therapy for gay people causes an increase in suicide) – If the whole thing was social / trend then therapeutic conversations or other methods would help. (details about lack of help – about Wikipedia on the subject)
You burst into an open door. I have written more than once about how the crazy radicalization of the "liberals" is one of the causes of the opposite radicalization.
Obviously, the illiberal camp has no other choice – it must ignore studies, opinions and testimonies. It must continue to spread the position that trans people are mentally ill. It is the liberals' fault.
Anyone who says there is “radicalization” is invited to adopt a trans or trans family and see reality a little from their perspective – among other things – despite many studies on the subject, other people simply hate them based on prejudice. (Including discrimination in employment that still exists almost everywhere, violence and more).
Sir, have you noticed that there is some gap between what they say and reality?
A person walks on a cliff and tells me that he is walking on a plain and in a moment he will fall and crash, is he mentally ill?
This is not a mental illness on the motivational level, like depression or attention deficit disorder, which can lead to debate about whether it is a mental problem or a moral problem. It is a cognitive problem. There is a discrepancy between reality and what that poor man says about reality. If it is not a mental illness, I do not know what a mental illness is. And in terms of the damage to the body caused as a result of those surgeries, it is not that far from the damage to the body from falling from the cliff onto the rocks.
So you can offer all kinds of explanations, starting from Humphreys or a social epidemic or whatever, but the claim that it is not a mental illness is in itself crazy.
“Discrepancy between reality and what the poor guy says about reality.” The claim is that there are cases in which a person is born with a mismatch between his organs – genitals of type A but other organs – brain – of type Y. These organs develop at different times during pregnancy. How do you know what the person's brain is?
“This is a cognitive problem” – That's your assertion. What is it based on? On the (circular) assumption that a person is always born with his brain exactly matching his genitals. According to this assumption, the genitals are also always matching each other (something that is known not to be the case from cases like Tomtom and Androgynous)
“If this is not mental illness, I don't know what mental illness is” – Maybe you should ask the APA for example
“The damage to the body caused by those surgeries ” – Not all trans people even have surgeries. On the other hand, one of the claims of supporters of gender-affirming treatments is that it reduces the risk of suicide.
It's much easier to talk about such things when you don't have to pay a price. When it's not your child or your family's who may pay a price as a result of things that seem “very logical” (opinions I hear from people who have never bothered to study biology, for example). Before you go against the positions of the APA – it's advisable to read what they say. You would understand this if you assumed you should be reluctant to pay if your suggestions would cause more harm than good.
I alluded to this when I wrote about homperidot (two embryos that have developed into one embryo in the womb), but how many homperidots are there in reality?
This problem is mainly a problem of a mixed society. Somehow in separate societies no one has any question about their gender identity. Boys are boys and girls are girls. In these societies one can really wonder about extreme cases. In a mixed society where there is a heavy cost to individuals as a result of the endless intra-sexual competition for attention from the opposite sex, it is no wonder that there are individuals who feel that this cost is too heavy for them and use this argument to drop out of the competition. Separate the sexes and you will immediately see a drop in gender confusion to zero levels, as there were for most of history.
1 There is no connection between two embryos that developed into one embryo.
2 Even in separate and traditional societies such as Haredim, religious, Arabs, etc., there are trans children. Most of them did not even know that there was such a thing. The argument “no one has a question about their gender identity” is a false argument.
3 Intra-sexual competition also exists in tribal societies in the Amazon, Africa and Asia from thousands of years ago.
4. Dropping out of the competition – what’s the connection? Some trans people are still looking for partners, and if anything, it makes this search much more challenging. Some are not interested in sex at all – sexual attraction and gender identity are different things and not always related.
5. For most of history, some went crazy, became addicted to drugs, committed suicide, etc., so you really “see” fewer of them. As seen by fewer gays
Why not?
When a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there, is there noise or no noise?
There it is limited and very disciplined in the system of marriage (which is also broken with the help of adultery and murder, but there it is already a violation of social order).
Just my hypothesis. Those whose maturation process is physiologically slower and who are less popular with the opposite sex are at a disadvantage, sometimes it is more convenient to simply run away from the competition itself.
If it bothered them at all. Again, the prevalence was very low. And it is difficult to decide whether the phenomenon exists when there are no people around to perceive it (see point number 2), and therefore people did not always think that their feelings were unusual. They lived with what they had and that was it.
The numbering of the points is gone. The question about the tree in the forest is point number 2.
This thread is over..
2. You assume that all trans people just lived in their own societies, and ignore other possibilities like going crazy or committing suicide.
3. As you said – That's just your assumption. People who are trans don't necessarily drop out of the race to find a partner. So this whole argument is based on a false assumption.
Even today they are crazy or suicidal. We can play their game as if they were something else but nature does not play their game. Their nature is fundamentally different from what they claim to be their nature. There is not much we can do about it.
For most of history in most cultures the message was this is your nature and that is what is, this is your class and that is what is, this is your religion and that is what is. That is how people lived. In modern times some of those categories have turned out to be fluid. Class has turned out to be of no importance and has disappeared. Religion has also turned out to be less significant. Other categories have emerged like nationality which have turned out to be significant. The category of the body is hard to eliminate. The cost of surgery is much higher than any other cost. Surgery breaks your body and destroys it. So try to convince me that the cost is not high. I don't think so. There is a limit to our ability to play with our data and in this case we are close to that limit.
On the contrary, as in many other cases, people in conservative societies talk about “nature” but do not study biology or insist on inserting the study of biology into ideas from several thousand years ago.
Your body is not a single unit and insisting on defining it by a certain organ (genitals) instead of by another organ (brain) is just insistence – In the end, there are more significant indicators such as a person's health. Not that of belly fat or that of what is convenient for religion, these are what doctors and biologists really determine.
“This is how people lived” – Until the end of the 19th century, a large part of people died in childhood. Not everything that used to be is necessarily better.
The claim that transgender people committed suicide cannot be true because in countries like Saudi Arabia, where transgender people are not legitimized, suicide rates are lower than in the Western world. You can say that they went crazy, but for that you have to bring data that used to be relatively crazier.
I did not determine who is right, the mind or the body. I only claimed that the trans person's argument is not against me or you, but against his body. He believes he is a woman. The man on the street sees a man in front of him, the mirror in the room shows him a man, the fat percentage and the angle of the shoulders show him a man. The easy argument is the argument in front of the public. The difficult argument is in front of the mirror in the closet.
The trans person can force us all to treat him as a woman, break his body and destroy it, undergo endless psychological and psychiatric treatments, but in the end, deep down, he knows that his problem is not external but internal. His body does not agree with his claims. Take it wherever you want.
You are making too many assumptions. I wasn't talking about consciousness, I was talking about the brain. The brain is also an organ in the body - you can't say the body is like this and the consciousness is like this, just as you can't say the car is like this but the engine is like this. The engine is part of the car. Similarly, the brain is part of the body.
Dror, I can't understand your move. The assumption is that the human biological structure has not changed for thousands of years. From a purely biological perspective, most humans have a sexual (biological) identity whose center of gravity is clear: they are either a woman or a man (even if they have a "little" of hormones of the opposite sex), their sexual identity matches their basic anatomy, physiology, and chromosomes (and therefore they feel they were born the right sex for them), and their basic sexual orientation/attraction is to the opposite sex. So far, that's just biology. Do you disbelieve in any of these assertions?