The Question of Knowledge and Choice 4 (Column 303)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5.1 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
(Sherlock Holmes, The Sign of Four)
In the three previous columns I examined four possibilities regarding divine foreknowledge of free choices. I reached the conclusion that the only possibility that exists is the fourth: God does not know. The motto of that column, which appears here as well, is meant to address the feeling that many experience upon hearing this conclusion. In this column I shall continue with the same motto and once again examine the question of whether the first three possibilities are indeed impossible. In fact, I shall focus here on the third and present some doubtful reflections about it.
Another Look at the Third Possibility
As I remarked at the end of the previous column, if one of the first three possibilities seems to someone correct in itself (that is, he does not see it merely as a forced escape route so as to avoid the fourth possibility), then of course one may adopt it. In my view they are implausible, and therefore I tend to think that the fourth is the correct one.
To round off the whole discussion, in this column I wanted nevertheless to examine the viability of the third-type possibility (the “movie theory”). In short, I still do not entirely rule out the possibility that there is no contradiction between knowledge and choice. This is a very delicate and confusing business, and for years I have been hesitant about whether the third possibility is indeed refuted or not (already at the end of Two Carts I raised doubts about this). Let me recall that at the beginning of the previous column, where I dealt with this possibility, I prefaced and wrote:
In this column I shall discuss the third possibility, which is the trickiest of them all. I shall already say in advance that I tend not to accept it, but I am always accompanied by a shadow of doubt with regard to the arguments against it.
In this column I shall try to explain that “shadow of doubt”, namely why I am not fully at peace with rejecting this possibility. In short, I indeed tend to think that it is not correct, but I am not certain of that.
Some of the arguments I shall present here were raised in the talkbacks to Column 301 (in various formulations). There were several discussions there that I had to cut off because the load on the site in those days was beyond my strength,[1] and therefore I could not continue to enter into details and subtleties in several parallel discussions. I apologize to the readers whose discussions were interrupted. I wrote to some of them that in the last column I would qualify my words, and indeed in what I say here you can find some of the counter-arguments that appeared in those talkbacks, which definitely helped me sharpen that shadow I mentioned. Here too the discussion will not be complete, and I shall merely describe the doubts without discussing them in detail (one of them alone requires philosophical and logical twists that are hard for me to carry out fully here).
Between Logical Contradiction and A Priori Contradiction
In the previous columns I distinguished between two kinds of impossibilities or contradictions: logical and physical. An impossibility is a claim that cannot obtain (logically or physically). A contradiction denotes a concept that is undefined (logically) or impossible (physically). A physical impossibility is a statement whose content contradicts the laws of physics, such as: the stone remained suspended in the air, the sea split in two, and the like. Correspondingly, a physical contradiction is a contradiction within a concept, for example the concept of ‘a stone that can remain suspended in the air’ (as opposed to the previous example, which was a statement; this is not a statement but a concept). A logical impossibility is a statement such as the triangle is round, this bachelor is married, or the diagonal of this square is shorter than its side. And correspondingly, a logical contradiction exists in concepts such as ‘round triangle’, ‘married bachelor’, and the like. I argued there that an expression that contains a logical contradiction is meaningless, and correspondingly a statement that contains such an expression or concept does not state anything (nonsense). However, this dichotomy is too rough. There is another category between these two types of contradictions, the logical and the physical, and it is important to pay attention to it: a priori contradiction.
At the end of my book Two Carts I distinguished between two kinds of non-physical contradictions/impossibilities (this is elaborated further in an unpublished article, here): logical contradiction and a priori contradiction.[2] A logical contradiction is a clash between two concepts or principles that directly contradict one another in terms of their very meaning, such as a round triangle. A circle is not a triangle and a triangle is not a circle, and therefore this combination is colorless and meaningless. By contrast, let us consider a concept such as ‘event without a cause’. David Hume taught us that the principle of causality is an a priori assumption and not the result of observation, and therefore asserting the existence of a causeless event is not a physical contradiction. But it is also quite clear that this is not a logical contradiction, since there is no principled bar to thinking about an event without a cause. It probably does not occur in our physical world, but in principle there is no logical impossibility here. An analysis of the concept ‘event’ does not reveal that it must occur by virtue of some cause. Thus, the expression ‘event without a cause’ contradicts a principle that we believe in a priori, but the conceptual combination ‘event without a cause’ is not meaningless. The question of whether such an event exists or not is a different question.[3] Contradictions or impossibilities of this sort I called there a priori contradictions/impossibilities.[4]
Thus there are two kinds of non-physical contradictions: logical contradiction and a priori contradiction. Why is this distinction important? Because I showed in the previous column that a physical contradiction does not bind God, whereas a logical contradiction does, but with respect to an a priori contradiction the situation is more complex. In the case of an a priori contradiction, the conceptual combination in question has meaning. It is not lack of meaning but lack of feasibility of actual realization. Regarding a concept that contains such a contradiction, one can perhaps claim that an omnipotent being can realize it. A concept or statement that contains an a priori contradiction has a well-defined meaning, but we have an inherent (a priori) inability to accept it, and therefore there may be room to speak of God being able to overcome such a contradiction. For example, it is quite clear that He can create an event without a cause (apparently even a human being can do that, at least when he chooses, according to the libertarian view). The creation of the world was probably such an event (regarding other miracles, there may be room to speak of the existence of non-physical causes).[5]
The Nature of the Contradiction between Divine Knowledge and Free Choice
In the previous column I quoted Maimonides in the Guide of the Perplexed, where he describes a situation in which one may hesitate as to whether some expression or statement constitutes a logical contradiction/impossibility or not. Eliezer raised the possibility that this is precisely the situation in our issue. Let us consider the concept of ‘divine knowledge of a future free act’, or the claim that God can know a future free act. Clearly these are not physical contradictions or impossibilities. The problem here is not the result of observation or of any scientific finding. The question is whether this is a logical or an a priori contradiction/impossibility. If I am correct in the conclusion of the previous column, then this is a logical impossibility, since it is a matter of ‘knowing information that does not exist’. How is that different from ‘a stone that the omnipotent cannot lift’, or from a ‘married bachelor’? But this is not necessarily accurate, because here the time axis may be important. The information does exist, for it will be generated at some point in the future and then it will exist. It does not exist now. Some would argue that if God can look at future information, then from His perspective the information does exist and there is no logical contradiction here. But one can formulate it differently: “God now knows information that does not now exist.” Here the problem is more severe, in two senses: first, if the information does not now exist, how can it be known now? And beyond that, once God knows it, it turns out that it does exist now (and we shall spare ourselves, for the sake of brevity, the predictable responses that His knowledge is not like ours and that He knows in a different way. I hope that by now it is clear that this is nonsense). In this formulation, is it not obvious that we are dealing with a logical contradiction?
One may raise the possibility that indeed God knows and the information really does exist now, but this does not contradict our free choice. That is, the information about a future choice does exist now (in the first column I already clarified that it is not very important whether someone knows it). This leads us to the claims in the second column that rejected the third possibility: that there is no contradiction between His knowledge and our freedom to choose. There I advanced several arguments in order to show that there is a contradiction, and now I shall present some doubts that I have regarding them.
Doubts Regarding Yehudit Ronen’s Formalization
Yehudit Ronen’s argument sought to show that there is no contradiction between these two assumptions. In brief, she argued that God’s knowledge entails that I shall do X, but not that I shall do it necessarily. She distinguished there between the claim: “It is necessary that if God knows that I shall do X then I shall do X”, which is true, and the claim “If God knows that I shall do X then necessarily I shall do X”, which is not true. She explained that determinism is equivalent to the second claim and not to the first.
My main objection to her argument was based on the possible-worlds interpretation. According to this interpretation, the term ‘necessary’ means “true in every possible world”. If something is necessary, one cannot imagine a world in which it does not occur. Hence, in every possible world it is true that if God knows that I shall do X, then I indeed do X.
In the talkbacks (see for example with Ariel here) the following claim was raised against me: even if in every such world I indeed do X, the important question is whether I do it necessarily. It is not enough to say that I do something in order to say that I necessarily do it. The whole point of Ronen’s formalization is precisely the distinction between these two situations. They argued that in such a situation there is no necessity in my actions, and therefore my challenge to her is mistaken. I replied that in order to clarify this we must apply the modal interpretation (of possible worlds) also to this very claim. To see whether, when I do something, I do it necessarily, we must examine the truth of the matter in all possible worlds. And indeed, assuming that God knows that I shall do X, then there is no possible world in which I do not do X. If so, it seems that the second claim is also true: if God knows that I shall do X, then necessarily I shall do it. And from here the deterministic conclusion does follow from God’s knowledge. Therefore, if we wish to preserve the assumption of our free choice, there is no escape from relinquishing the assumption that God knows in advance what we shall do in the future.
My shadow of doubt is that indeed there is a sense that even if in all possible worlds a person does X, there is room for the claim that the possible-worlds interpretation does not adequately capture the notion of necessity. According to what I have described here, there is in fact no difference between the two aforementioned claims, even though their formalization is different. Or, in different words: even if God knows that I shall do X, it is still possible that I would do Y, and then, of course, He would also know that I shall do Y. His knowing that I shall do X is not necessary, and therefore there may be a situation in which He knows that I shall do Y. In short, this whole business is confusing and seems somewhat dubious to me, although I am unable to put my finger on the precise flaw in my arguments. Asaf put it nicely and succinctly:
Perhaps I am not understanding or am missing something, but if He knows that I shall travel to Tel Aviv, does that not mean that He knows that I have freely chosen to travel to Tel Aviv? That is, He knows in advance what I shall choose freely, and although I could have chosen to travel to Haifa, I did not. Is there a problem with this way of thinking?
As I replied to him, this is precisely the movie theory that was discussed in the second column (he made this comment after the first column), but this formulation greatly sharpens the shadow of doubt that I am describing here. I cannot dispel the feeling that perhaps I have missed something here.
After the column was posted, Phil sent a talkback that convinced me that I was mistaken. I therefore added this passage to the column and updated it (I hope the site will not enter a loop of redirects). Phil wrote as follows:
According to your view, it seems that God does not even know what I chose in the past. For if He does indeed know, then according to the possible-worlds interpretation it follows that I had to choose that way. The argument is the same argument:
- Today God knows that I chose X.
- There is no possible world in which God knows that I chose X but in fact I did not choose X.
- Conclusion: I had to choose X.
Although he himself suggested there a possible distinction between forward and backward causality, and I also answered him that this is the distinction, on second thought this is not correct. If the possible-worlds interpretation is applied to the claim that I did X yesterday, then he is indeed right: I did it necessarily. This is a good proof that this interpretation does not adequately capture the notion of necessity. This is a novelty in modal logic and is worth asking mathematicians and logicians about, but I am convinced.
What, then, is our situation now? Indeed, in the sense of possible worlds, it seems that God’s knowledge does not dictate my action. The question is whether the notion of necessity as defined here is really the relevant notion. It actually seems that I really do X of my own will, even though I did not, in fact, have the possibility of doing otherwise. This somewhat resembles the approach called compatibilism, that is, the claim that a person can be considered to act freely even though he has no other option. This is akin to the Talmudic discussion of compulsion and will (in footnote 6 in the second column I brought as an example the Talmudic passage in Berakhot 9 about “and they despoiled Egypt”). As long as this is what he himself wants and decides to do, he is considered free, even though he truly had no other option. I think that such a situation still does not deserve to be called free choice, but at this point I am really not sure of anything here.
Thus far I have discussed Yehudit Ronen’s argument, which shows that apparently there is no contradiction between knowledge and choice, and I suggested various ways to reject it (as stated, I am not sure what the conclusion is). By contrast, Newcomb’s paradox comes to prove that there must be a contradiction between God’s knowledge and our freedom to choose, and here we must examine the counter-arguments that were raised against me.
Newcomb’s Paradox
The paradox shows that if one assumes that the information exists, a contradiction arises, since there are two valid arguments regarding the chooser’s strategy, each of which leads to a conclusion opposite that of the other (either take only the closed box, or take both). In a follow-up challenge (here, at the end) Ariel also raised against this argument a claim similar to the one we saw above: it is indeed true that there cannot be a situation in which the prophet knew in advance that I would do X and yet I do something else, but the causal relation is not from the prophet’s knowledge to my action, but the opposite: from my action to the prophet’s knowledge. He argued that one should not rule out the possibility that the prophet knows in advance what I shall do and also takes into account my final deliberation, and therefore in the end there will indeed be a match.
I told him that he is presupposing here reverse causality, from future to past, and in my view this is unacceptable. Let me recall the distinction I presented in the second column between reverse causality with respect to information, which is impossible, and reverse causality with respect to logic, which is possible. Here we are dealing with reverse causality regarding information, and therefore it seems to me that it is impossible (see more on this below). Beyond that, as long as the prophet knows the information, regardless of the causal direction, I can still point to two contradictory strategies that stand before the chooser, and therefore his knowledge leads to a contradiction.
Phil too raised an argument of reverse causality, and he supported it with an argument similar to the one Ariel raised above, except that this time he applied it to Newcomb’s paradox: he wondered why the possible-worlds interpretation captures the notion of necessity. It may be that the chooser indeed does what the prophet predicted, but does not do it necessarily. To this I shall again say that I think this is impossible, because the possible-worlds interpretation is the correct interpretation of the term ‘necessity’, but the aforementioned shadow of doubt remains here as well. Beyond that, even if the chooser does not do it necessarily, I am not asking what he will do but what he ought to do. The question is what strategy he should adopt, not what he will actually do. In this sense there is a difference between Newcomb’s argument and Yehudit Ronen’s formalization.
Against Ariel and Phil I also raised the question of what they would say about the transparent-box experiment. There the chooser knows what the prophet has decided, and therefore he can decide to act contrary to the prophet’s prediction and turn it into a lie with his own hands. Abstention on the part of the prophet (which Ariel proposed) is not an option, for he is supposed to look at the future and say what he sees. After all, something will happen in the future, and he is supposed to see it. It was indeed argued that this is a situation in which the prophet’s own action influences the chooser’s decision, and therefore there is no room here to speak of a prophet who knows the future. I again argued that if the prophet simply observes the future and sees what will happen, this argument is not relevant to him. He will see what he himself will do and how the chooser will respond.[6] Therefore I do not see such involvement as a problem for my argument.[7]
Ariel Vinograd argued against me that one can formulate this very paradox also with respect to deterministic machines (this will apparently send them into a non-terminating loop). He concluded from this that there is nothing in this paradox that relates specifically to a being endowed with free choice. The very existence of such a prophet influences the future and therefore does not allow prediction or does not allow a winning strategy, even if the chooser does not possess free choice. If so, the root of the difficulty is not the contradiction between free will and the existence of the prophet. Such a prophet cannot exist regardless of the question of free will.
Now I think that if this is so, then my position is even better. If so, it is impossible that God knows what will happen in the future, regardless of the question whether we have free will. This is precisely my claim, and he only reinforces it.
But there I answered him that if we are dealing with a mechanical chooser, there is no problem whatsoever with the prophet’s knowing what this chooser will do. He need only examine the chooser’s software and see what it tells him to choose (and in the transparent-box case he must see what it tells him to do in each situation of the transparent box). Admittedly, one can also put this prophet into an impossible loop by instructing the mechanical chooser to act against the prophet’s prediction (in the transparent-box case, of course). And indeed, after some back-and-forth between us, Ariel Vinograd formulated the final difficulty as follows:
Or, more simply, in the version with the glass box. I instruct the software that if the glass box is empty, it is to take only it, and if the glass box contains a million dollars, it is to take both boxes. Thus in any case the software will foil the prophet’s scheme. We have reached the same paradox, and free choice will not help here (since a computer does not have it).
And to this I answered him:
I think you are making assumptions about the software that pull the rug out from under the question.
The chooser’s software knows that the prophet knows in advance what it itself will do. Therefore it will take what it is expected to take, unless it has the choice to do otherwise. That is what will happen, unless you introduce here a programmer who instructs it to do the opposite, but then you have already indirectly introduced either an assumption of choice [on the part of the mechanical chooser or of the programmer who created it] and/or the assumption that there is no software that knows in advance what I shall do. In any case, in my view the difficulty does not arise.
In other words, you have indirectly introduced here the assumption that the software itself is endowed with free choice or that the programmer has chosen the mode of operation for it. In either case, either no agent with choice is involved here, or such an agent is involved, and then the conclusion is that there is no such prophet. I think the problem cannot be formulated when dealing with a mechanical chooser.
And still, here too I have some sort of shadow of doubt. And I can only conclude with what I wrote to him there at the end of my message:
But I truly am not completely sure, and the whole thing somewhat confuses me (I apologize that I do not have time to deal with this seriously now; the pressure here is terrible). In any case, I shall qualify this argument at the end of the next column.
There is something elusive here that is playing tricks on me, and I am not entirely sure that my conclusion is really correct.
And again, a later addition to the column. After two days Ariel returned and argued against the transparent-box experiment with an argument that convinced me that I was mistaken here as well:
In the case of the deterministic prophet [in my view one can ignore the fact that this is a deterministic prophet. M.A.] and the transparent box – if from now on the opaque box is made transparent, there will be a very clear influence of the prophet on the chooser’s choice, and therefore the prophecy will fail. One must note that the prophet will still know exactly what will happen, but he simply will not be able to put into the box any amount that will come out right. The flaw is not in his knowledge, but in his ability to put money into the box or not to put money into the box, since he surely knows that if he puts the million into the box it will be chosen, and if he does not put it in, it will not be chosen.
As stated, I was convinced that the transparent-box experiment does not prove the impossibility of knowing. It is an experiment that cannot be carried out, which further strengthens the shadow of doubt that accompanies me with regard to the third possibility.
A Note on Reverse Causality and Time Travel
By way of a side remark, my entire discussion assumes that reverse causality is impossible,[8] and therefore that there cannot be information in the present about something that will be done freely in the future.[9] One can add here Yossi Potter’s claim from general relativity, where he proposed a physical possibility of reverse causality or at least of obtaining information from the future without influencing it. I argued against him that this information cannot be transmitted to the prophet (without fixing the future), and therefore we are still trapped in some inability on God’s part. If so, we have not gained much from this proposal. But of course, if he is right, then it is possible that God really does know the future (though even then there is some inability on His part). The fact that we have gained nothing does not mean that his proposal is wrong. The conclusion from his words is that the claim that God does not know is not necessary, even if as a result this information cannot be transmitted to human beings (and in fact cannot be transmitted to any point in time on our side that is located before the time of the act’s performance).
Perhaps I shall add another claim here. I wish to suggest that the theory of relativity deals with physical events. I am not sure that one may use it with regard to choice events. It may be that in a situation in which the information is generated in the future in a non-deterministic way (by a human choice) one is not allowed to apply the theory of relativity to it. Physics assumes determinism, and it may be that this enters in one way or another as a hidden assumption in the theory of relativity. I shall now bring some indication for this claim.
In Column 33 I discussed the deceptive nature of the concept of ‘travelling back in time’. I showed that it involves conceptual and logical difficulties and not only physical ones, and I proposed there a way to solve them (by assuming two time axes). Time travel gives rise to several paradoxes, and one of the best known among them is the ‘killing the grandfather’ paradox. Suppose that in some way one can travel back fifty years in time. I return to my father’s birthplace and a year before my father is born I kill my grandfather. Now my father cannot be born, and of course neither can I. But then, if we continue along the time axis another fifty years, I cannot exist. So who was it that travelled back in time? Seemingly this paradox proves that time travel is impossible. Time travel leads to paradoxes and is therefore impossible.
But note that this paradox is based on the assumption that I have free choice, and therefore I can decide to kill my grandfather. In a deterministic world I shall do what I am dictated to do, and therefore, by definition, I shall not kill him, and in such a situation the paradox, of course, will not arise. Perhaps this can be seen as a hint that the theory of relativity, and in particular time travel within it, cannot deal with beings endowed with free will (assuming there are such beings).[10]
Summary
I still tend to think that the most reasonable conclusion is that God does not know what a being with choice will do in the future (unless He removes its choice and determines the future Himself). Even if the adoption of far-fetched hypotheses of reverse causality in time or interpretations of the logical formalization and Newcomb’s paradox can in some way solve the problem (in light of the comments I have received, I am no longer at all sure that they cannot), it seems to me that the strain involved in them far exceeds the strain involved in the hypothesis that God does not know the future. As I showed in the third column, there is no principled problem with this claim. It does not in any way contradict the assumption of God’s omnipotence.
We must note that every proposal in this area leaves us with some inability on God’s part. In the worst case, we must all agree that even if He knows what will happen in the future, He certainly cannot both determine what will happen in the future and also grant us free choice. That is, our free choice deprives Him of control/ability at some level, at least practical control, even if not control in the sense of information. Therefore, the recoil from the thesis I have proposed here, as though it damages God’s omnipotence, has no substance. Logic will always “limit” His abilities (we saw in the third column that these are not really limitations).
Similarly, the silencing arguments raised against me, as if I am relying on my own gut feelings and on their basis coming out against positions accepted in the tradition for generations, have no substance for several reasons. First, in our tradition there are deterministic views, just as there are views that relinquish God’s knowledge (I have brought here only some of them). Second, just as all the sages who shape our tradition used their reason to propose positions and arguments on this issue, I see no reason why I, or anyone else, should not do the same. If everyone were to say only what accords with the tradition, different views would never have arisen. Third, it is completely unreasonable to tell me that even if my mind tells me something, I must subordinate it to tradition. First, because in my opinion there is no such tradition. There is a tradition that He is omnipotent, but regarding His knowledge of the future this depends on the question of whether it can indeed be derived from His omnipotence. In my view it cannot. But even if there were such a tradition, if this is what I think, then I must say it and propose it for discussion, and everyone will decide what to do with it. In particular, as I have written more than once, the claim of formal authority with regard to matters of fact (and the question of whether God knows or not is a factual question) is an oxymoron. If this is what I think, then this is what I think. And fourth and finally, the discussion of this question is far from being cardinal and consequential. On the assumption that we agree that a person has free choice, the question of whether God knows or does not know in advance what we shall do is marginal. Why should it be important at all? It is a theological question that is nice to play with, but the recoil from uttering “heretical” statements with regard to it seems very strange to me. In my eyes it is far more problematic to rule in the laws of Shabbat in a way that deviates from the accepted opinion, something that most great halakhic decisors do not hesitate to do.
In short, each person must think what seems to him most reasonable, regardless of whether it accords with the tradition. I have laid out the arguments and considerations (as well as the reservations) before you, and now everyone is invited to formulate his own position. Whoever has substantive arguments is invited to raise them in the discussion, but claims to the effect that one is forbidden to draw conclusions or forbidden to state them in public are cowardly nonsense. When substantive arguments and reasons run out, people move on to silencing techniques (“this is heresy”, “how can one reject the view accepted by all the great sages of Israel on the basis of gut feelings?”, “this shows lack of fear of Heaven”, and so on). Because such claims were raised against me in the previous columns, I decided to devote the next column to further discussion of the question of intellectual autonomy.
Thank you to all the intelligent commenters who helped me clarify this issue. I have learned from your words here, and it seems to me that now I am indeed exhausted but understand a little better what is going on here.
[1] That week I wrote four columns, all of which were packed with talkbacks to which I had to respond, in parallel to other questions that arose on the site, by email and by phone (there were several hundreds of them in those days), in addition to quite a few classes that I was giving every day. I am spelling all this out because I am uncomfortable about having cut off some interesting discussions. I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to the writers.
[2] This distinction was mentioned in footnote 2 of the second column.
[3] For example, an event of free choice is without a cause (in my book The Science of Freedom I argued that according to libertarianism its basis lies in teleological reason and not in cause).
[4] Strictly speaking, this is the synthetic-a priori, since if it were analytic then the a priori would be identical with the logical. My claim is that within the a priori there are two categories: the logical and the synthetic-a priori. I tried to see in these contradictions an indication of Kant’s thesis regarding the existence of an intermediate category between the physical and the logical (the synthetic-a priori).
[5] Incidentally, in the commentary attributed to Nahmanides on the Song of Songs (in the collected writings of Nahmanides, Schavel edition, vol. 2) he interprets the midrash in Pirkei de-Rabbi Eliezer, “From where were the heavens created? From the snow beneath His Throne of Glory…” as speaking of creation ex materia, for in his view creation ex nihilo is a logical impossibility. As is known, Maimonides in the Guide of the Perplexed apparently understood this midrash in the same way, and therefore wrote that he had never encountered a midrash so strange. I remarked on this in my article on Torah and science (see there around footnote 14. In the printed edition in Tzohar there is also a note by the editor and my response on the matter).
[6] This is not a prophet who calculates what will happen in the future, about whom one could claim that he gets into a loop in his calculation. It is a prophet who observes what will actually happen. Something will happen, and he is supposed to see it.
[7] This reminds me of an article by the economist Ariel Rubinstein, who argued that there cannot be an economic theory that accurately predicts everything that will happen in the future, since the very existence of the theory itself influences the decisions people will make. On this I wrote (to myself; it was not published) two claims: 1. One can speak of an economic theory that is not publicized. 2. One should not rule out the possibility of a theory that also takes into account its own influence on the market. In mathematics one defines the notion of a ‘fixed point’ of a function, where the value of the function equals the value of its argument: f(x=a)=a. If we define the ultimate economic theory T as a function G that takes into account all economic variables, including the effects of the theory T itself, then one should not rule out the possibility that it will still give the correct result: T=G(x,y,z,T). T is a ‘fixed point’ of the function G.
[8] I have already noted that Yehudit Ronen (in her doctoral dissertation) argued that there is no principled problem with such causality.
[9] Note that in this sentence I assumed a connection between the question of whether information about the future can be obtained and the question of whether, when such information exists now, it is still possible that I have freedom to choose. In the first column I explained that these are two different questions, and therefore the claims that God is above time and can obtain future information answer the first question but do not solve our question (which is the second). Now, after the conclusion of the third column, the two questions can once again be linked. If we have free choice, then it is impossible that God obtains in the present the information about the future. If He were to obtain it, we would not have choice. The conclusion from rejecting the third possibility (the movie theory) is that the second possibility as well (that God is above time) falls.
[10] Perhaps one can even say more than this. If I travel back in time, then my very presence there contradicts the reality that obtained then (for I did not yet exist at that time). Thus, regardless of killing the grandfather, such a situation itself is impossible. Seemingly, all that is possible, if at all, is merely to roll the time axis back to the same reality that existed then. But it is not clear in what sense this is time travel. Who is it that travelled in time? But this already takes us back in time to Column 33 and I shall not go into it here.
Discover more from הרב מיכאל אברהם
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
Regarding note 5, we see in the Ramban in several places (including in the introduction to his commentary on the Torah) that he believes that first God created only the material world, and then all the rest of creation is from Him.
I commented there on the apparent contradiction with the Ramban in Genesis.
I think one of the confusing things about the “film hypothesis” is that we need to distinguish between “choice” as an action that determines a particular future out of several possible futures (not necessarily) and “choice” as a psychological experience. It is easy to imagine a situation in which in all possible worlds I choose the same thing, but my experience in each and every one of them is an experience of choice, and therefore it is confusing. In such a case, the question would be whether the “experience of choice” is a mere illusion or whether there is a real action here that can be identified as real, and which happens to occur in all possible worlds. I think that in such a situation the first option (illusion) is the correct one, and it has to do with how the claim “all possible worlds” should be treated: In my opinion, a distinction should be made here between the multiverse theory that talks about parallel worlds and the more heuristic claim here, which talks about “is such a world possible on a theoretical level?” According to the first option, it is possible that from a physical point of view, even if there are an infinite number of parallel worlds, there is no universe in which I chose Y, but that still does not mean that I could not have chosen Y. This simply did not happen in any universe in the multiverse for technical reasons, or because making a choice requires violating the laws of physics within which the multiverse exists, or because in every possible parallel universe I actually chose Y without having to because in every possible universe I am the kind of person who chooses Y during a test. But the second version speaks of a situation in which “it is impossible to imagine under any circumstances a world in which I chose Y”, and the description “all possible worlds” is just a mental tool for refining the matter, which here actually creates confusion instead of refinement. In such a situation in which “it is impossible under any circumstances a world in which I chose Y”, even if my experience is an “choice experience” I see no choice but to treat it as an illusion of choice and not as a real choice – because if it is a real choice then a world in which I chose Y is necessarily possible.
(I apologize if what I wrote has already been said in one version or another, if so, it is perfectly fine to ignore it or refer me to the relevant column and I will find it myself).
I completely agree with your description. I'm just not sure that's what's confusing.
There is another option. And it is the correct one.
There is no future - and therefore there is no knowledge of the future. https://mikyab.net/posts/66771#comment-35492
There is no free choice - man's desires, choices and actions are results like all things.
What is there in the present - God plays dice. There are possibilities by force. And in an unclear way, certain dice are drawn and something specific is realized.
What does man have - speech. Understanding in the mind. Fear of God.
And the Torah comes to correct man so that he may choose correctly. And the choice is not free. And the will is not free. And therefore they strive in education.
And those who want and run and rush and search and invent and find how and how and in what way man in general and they in particular have a choice that is free, are nothing but captives of the instinct of pride.
And the preoccupation with the knowledge of God comes from the root of the serpent.
And prophecy is not about knowing the future at all. But the correction of man and what is right to do and what is right to be. And a warning of the consequences that will come otherwise. (And if you do not respond, know that death is death.)
This is not an "other possibility", it is to say in other words that God does not know the future (because He does not exist, so there is nothing to know).
Answer at the level of the question.
The word “future” God certainly knows. The concept “future” God certainly knows. And the imagination of “the future” created in the imagination of the imaginer He must have heard.
True answer:
Who are you to talk about God
And regarding the other option that is correct.
It is a possibility that there is neither a future nor a choice nor a determinism.
Is this an option that has been raised?
In your second view of the existence of God, you take the position that if we have two positions that we tend to accept, it is better to qualify one of them than to assume that one of them is incorrect (where you qualify the principle of causality for things that are observable and experienced by us). Here you prefer to drop one of them.
I constantly feel that here too there is some kind of loophole in the formulation through which it would be possible to assume both positions together.
I would say something like (you are better at this…) – With God there is no problem of lack of knowledge. Not that he actually knows, because then we encounter the definition of knowledge that necessarily leads to the conclusion that he knows everything before I choose, etc.’, but everything that I know, that he has no lack of knowledge, I do not know what is.
And I do not see this as an escape from the question, since it is only natural to assume that God is beyond our understanding in certain concepts.
I still tend to assume that the key to the answer lies in the definition of knowledge (or the lack of knowledge) and not in such a fundamental change. Because there is a problem of argument here. You said again and again, "It is impossible to answer the concept of 'different knowledge' because there is no argument here." Doesn't the solution simply lie in a different definition of the argument?
I explained that I didn't think so.
The assertion that God is subject to the laws of logic only shows the extent to which the serpent leads to distortions.
A triangle that is a circle can certainly exist. A superposition of a triangle and a circle. Which will sometimes be perceived as a triangle and sometimes as a circle.
The fact that in dry logical language such a situation is problematic is a problem of the thinker and the perceiver.
Ordinary investigation will immediately lead to the conclusion that the human mental reality is full of contradictory concepts. Such as one image that contains both a circle and a triangle. Or different colors. Etc. All are contradictory concepts that are transmitted in one subordination that the human cunningly separates between them and thus seems to have solved the problem.
The ruling judge, you continue to write your messages with wonderful decisiveness. Therefore, I tell you again that decisiveness is no substitute for reasoning, and certainly not when you talk nonsense, as is found quite a bit among you.
What about superposition and contradiction? I am talking about a three-circle and not about the object “breathing”, that is, an object that is sometimes perceived this way and sometimes perceived that way.
Nonsense = Torah and science
Superposition describes a situation in which two or more situations coexist, that is, behave as one thing. In reality.
That is, reality tolerates contradictory situations. Contrary to logic.
And it is even easier to learn that if reality is not subject to the laws of human logic, it is even easier that God is not.
The problem with you is that you are still dealing with a God who listens to your advice in matters of logic and what is permitted and what is prohibited, and as your logic expands or sharpens, so does the room for maneuver and the limitations of this God you invented. We are talking about a God who is a creation of your imagination who seems to be quite made in your image and likeness.
The God you created has no connection to the God mentioned in the Torah who brought Israel out of Egypt and gave them the Torah.
It would be a good idea to arrange the links of the good ones so that they will reach the aforementioned talkback and not the column, it will be very easy, thanks in advance.
Done.
The links were indeed arranged into posts and not into columns.
It seems that the matter has not yet been resolved, or does it work on the computer and not on the tablet?.. ?♂️
I think that in general the links to Talkbacks only work from the computer. Even from the ’Recent Comments’ page – clicking from the computer takes you to Talkback itself (in columns), and from the phone you go to the top of the column.
Cardigan, apparently the Rabbi against smartphones of all kinds… ??
Apparently, just as Rambam believes that creation from nothing is not an impossibility, so it can be said that his knowledge of what does not yet exist is not an impossibility, and I will explain.
In relation to the Creator himself, we have knowledge from negation alone. In fact, every limited virtue that we know is negated because, although the Creator does not lack it, He is ‘excess’ over it because we are not limited by its limits. Therefore, in my understanding, there is value according to Rambam in presenting a positive virtue and its negation in relation to the Creator, because in this way we do understand in a hidden way the matter of virtue in relation to Him, but without involving it together with its limitations. But the point is that when we seek to observe the Creator's ability and actions in relation to created reality, Rambam understands that it is bound to a certain legality in that it is prevented from being impossibility. We have faith in what we do know, and therefore the encounter between the unknown and the known must be accompanied at least by the avoidance of irrationality.
However, the Rambam stated that there is no avoidance in the creation of something that is from nothing. Although our knowledge is in nothing, and at the boundary where the transition from nothing to being is, we have no perception and knowledge, in any case we do not find this transition to be avoided.
In the same way, the Creator’s knowledge of something that does not yet exist occurs above the boundary of being, and although we have no knowledge of it (or because it is so) we do not find it to be avoided. The depiction of being avoided in relation to this reality is due to the perception that the moment there is knowledge in relation to the occurrence/choice of a creature, then a connection is created between the knowledge and the creature in a way that requires a decision between knowledge and choice. But the truth is that knowledge is in relation to what is not yet, and therefore we have no attainment of it and we do not find any impediment in relation to it.
And in this, His knowledge is truly not like our knowledge. The previous one is his knowledge, and the previous one is our knowledge.
His knowledge is special in that it is eternal, prior, and independent of space and time.
I didn't understand. Creation from nothing is not a contradiction but just something incomprehensible (at most an a priori contradiction but certainly not logical). What's the point here? There are arguments here and they need to be addressed. Statements are not enough.
By the way, also regarding Maimonides' theory of negative adjectives, in my opinion it is very problematic (it actually doesn't say anything, at least if you interpret it literally).
I also claim that there is no logical contradiction between the Creator's knowledge and our choice. His knowledge is in relation to something that is not, in any case we do not have the intellectual tools to grasp it in a way that makes it difficult if it is known how it is only a possibility of choice. There are no two ‘beings’ that contradict each other, knowledge is in relation to nothing, and in any case we do not understand, but we also do not find a contradiction, or something is avoided.
My explanation at length above actually comes to explain why the mind tends to draw this picture based on the Rambam's reference to obtaining the bones from the proofs of negation. The proofs of negation are the Rambam's way of pointing to the absolute and complete positive in all kinds of perfections (as..), the tendency to answer ‘they’ Every possibility of virtue and ability to know in relation to the Creator is founded on this approach (and that of the Kabbalists), as long as it does not have a side of limitation and as long as it is not unavoidable. And as mentioned, knowing something that in itself is not, does not contradict the fact that its realization is only a possibility in the world of being. Although it is not perceived in our mind, it is not avoided. (In the same way that there is from nothing is not avoided and we tend to it by virtue of tradition, in our case the perception and intuition that passed down among Israel in tradition. Perhaps even more than that..)
Rabbi Moshe Rat – Knowing to Believe, What Do You Think? https://www.knowingfaith.co.il/יסודות-האמונה/ידיעה-וביהר
I don't have time to read.
I'm still struggling in Basic with Yehudit Ronen's argument. I understand that she says that only a logical argument is necessary and not any claim. For example, it is necessary that A entails A. But it is not true that A entails that it is necessary that A.
If that is not what she says, please give me an example of a claim (not an argument. Something generated by a single variable) that is necessary according to Yehudit Ronen. And if that is true, then there is no connection to God's knowledge here. In the same way, one could say that it is true that: It is necessary that if I am a deterministic robot then I am a deterministic robot, but it is not true that: If I am a deterministic robot then it is necessary that I am a deterministic robot.
Well, it is indeed not necessary that I am a deterministic robot, but I am indeed a deterministic robot. And that is all that is required to prove. I am probably missing something completely trivial here, but I would be happy to explain.
Our Cardigan Rabbi, you are wrong here, both in substance and in terminology. A deductive argument is a claim for everything. The claim “If A then B” is a claim and not an argument. Therefore, it is judged in terms of truth or falsehood. An argument is a derivation of a claim (conclusion) from other claims (premises), and it is judged in terms of valid or invalid (and not true or false).
Your mistake stems from the fact that it is possible to construct a deductive argument equivalent to any argument. For example, if the argument from premises A and B yields the conclusion C, then the equivalent deductive argument “If A and B then C” (which is a claim and not an argument) is true (and not valid).
You probably meant to say that a deductive argument can be necessary but not an atomic argument. But you are wrong here too. A deductive argument of the type “If A then B” cannot be necessarily true, except for certain of its contents (i.e. not formal correctness, tautology). But if you consider the contents then even an atomic proposition can perhaps be necessarily true. For example, there is a being whose necessary existence exists (although of course it can also be formulated as a corollary: if its existence is necessary then it exists). Or the proposition “either P or not P”, which is also not a corollary but a necessary truth.
Absolutely right. But I still ask what divine knowledge is doing here. Is the claim I presented regarding a deterministic robot actually correct? In other words, does the assumption that I am a deterministic robot also mean that it is not necessary that I am a deterministic robot? Therefore, is it possible to hold the opinion that I am a deterministic robot but my actions are not done ”necessarily”? This seems to me to be completely equivalent to Ronen's argument.
I didn't understand the claim. You describe a formally valid inference (if A then A), while she talks about a programmatically valid inference. Her claim is that while the claim "divine knowledge necessarily entails the doing of the act" is necessarily true, the claim "divine knowledge necessarily entails the doing of the act" is not true.
Exactly what I didn't understand. Where in her argument does the content come into play? In the second column, you put A=knowledge and B=choice. I can put A=no choice and B=no choice, and everything is still fine. In other words, we get: no choice, but it's not necessary that there is no choice. The truth is, I'm quite embarrassed to ask such simple questions, which is why I ordered the book, but if there are private lessons here, who is stupid and won't listen?
She just wanted to show that even if we came to the conclusion that it is necessary that if A then B, it does not mean that if A then it is necessary that B. Therefore, even if it is necessary that knowledge of the ’ entails the choice (this is arrived at philosophically, not logically, because it has to do with content), it should not be confused with the conclusion about determinism.
May Mr. and I forgive him, but only this time. In the same way, even if it is necessary that determinism entails determinism, it does not mean that if determinism then it is necessary that determinism (and so what?). My confusion is doubled, and if I continue not to understand, I will wait patiently until the book arrives, because it is clear to me that I did not understand the argument.
I'll come back to that.
The claim that if there is knowledge there is necessarily choice is a philosophical claim. It has nothing to do with Yehudit Ronen's argument. What she tried to show was only the following: that the philosophical argument leads to the claim "it is necessary that if there is knowledge there is choice", and not to the claim "if there is knowledge there is necessarily choice". She only showed logically that these two are not equivalent. That's all.
Desperate icon. What you wrote here I also understood from the previous explanations. I will think about it more and come back here for a while now, alive.
Lust got the better of me and I just ordered the book.
Hope you went somewhere far away and wore black.
It is to my credit that since I published it here publicly (there is no good explanation why), I was exempt from a distant place and was duly granted a blessing.
If it is still not understood, Yehudit Ronen's explanation is the same as that of Mahara Plattinga, which is presented in detail in Rabbi Moshe Rat's detailed article on the subject on his website. The delay was due to a malfunction in the time machine.
Cardigno,
RS”G explained that man's actions ‘dictate’ God's knowledge. If man chooses to remain silent then God already knows that he will remain silent. And if he chooses to speak then it is impossible for God to know anything else.
Necessarily, if God knew that Yossi would remain silent then Yossi would remain silent.
There, I didn't understand why this message was directed at me. By presenting your opinion of the rabbinical court, are you explaining Ronen's argument to me? If so, then I didn't understand. Before we talk about knowledge and choice, I'm puzzled by Ronen's argument. From what I understand from her, even an explicit assumption that there is no free choice does not imply that there is no free choice (because it does not follow from the assumption that it is "necessary" that there is no free choice). Unfortunately, I don't have the book to see her complete argument. Maybe I'll really try to get it.
You can philosophize with words as much as you want, I think it's very confusing and unnecessary. In the end, the question is what the timeline looks like. According to those who say that the ’ knows the future and that there is still a choice, it looks like this:
_______________(future)
(past)___________(present)_
/_______________(future)
In the present, there is a split into 2 future timelines because each choice leads to a different future.
In their opinion, the ’ knows the future, and we will mark it like this:
_____{Knowing the ’}___(future)
(past)___________(present)_
/_______________(future)
And now the question is what happens to the lower timeline, can it exist or not?
If it can exist, then after the choice the timeline will look like this:
{Knowledge of the ’}
(Past)________________
/(Present)___________(Future)
That is, the knowledge of the ’ does not correspond to reality and therefore it is a contradiction. And if you say that his knowledge changes after the choice, that is:
(Past)________________
/(Present)_{Knowledge of the ’}___(Future)
So in fact the choice changed the ’'s mind and he did not really know the future.
We have come to the conclusion that if the ’ knows the future the timeline must look like this:
(Past)________________(Present)_{Knowledge of the ’}___(Future)
Notice that there is no forking of paths in the present, meaning there is no possibility of choice. Because if there is a split then either it will be meaningless (God's knowledge will change) or it will never be able to happen (a contradiction will arise between knowledge and reality).
The conclusion – God's knowledge of the future leaves no room for free choice. It creates a deterministic world with a single timeline, where everything is fixed from beginning to end.
Prov.
(The spaces were deleted for some reason, so here's a correction)
You can philosophize with words as much as you want, in the end the question is what the timeline looks like, according to those who say that the ’ knows the future and that there is still a choice, it looks like this:
. _______________(future)
(past)___________(present)_
. /_______________(future)
In the present there is a split into 2 future timelines because each choice leads to a different future.
In their opinion, the ’ knows the future, and we will mark it like this:
. _____{Knowledge of the ’}___(future)
(past)____________(present)_
. /_______________(future)
And now the question is what happens to the lower timeline, can it exist or not?
If it can exist, then after the choice the timeline will look like this:
. {Knowledge of the ’}
(past)________________
. /(present)___________(future)
That is, the knowledge of the ’ does not correspond to reality and therefore it is a contradiction. And if you say that his knowledge changes after the choice, that is:
(past)________________
. /(present)_{knowledge of the ’}___(future)
So in fact the choice changed the ’'s mind and he did not really know the future.
We have come to the conclusion that if the ’ knows the future, the timeline must look like this:
(past)________________(present)_{knowledge of the ’}___(future)
Notice that there is no forking of paths in the present, that is, there is no possibility of choice. Because if there is a forking then either it will be meaningless (the ’'s knowledge will change) or it will never be able to happen (a contradiction will be created between the knowledge and reality).
The conclusion – God’s knowledge of the future leaves no room for free choice. It creates a deterministic world with a single timeline, where everything is fixed from beginning to end.
Prov.
(The site doesn't like double spaces, apparently)
You can philosophize with words as much as you want, in the end the question is what the timeline looks like, according to those who say that God knows the future and that there is still a choice, it looks like this:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _______________(future)
(past)___________(present)_
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ./_______________(future)
In the present there is a split into 2 future timelines because each choice leads to a different future.
In their opinion, God knows the future, and we will mark it like this:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _____{Knowledge of the Universe}___(Future)
(Past)___________(Present)_
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ./_______________(Future)
Now the question is what happens to the lower timeline, can it exist or not?
If it can exist, then after the choice the timeline will look like this:
. /(present)___________(future)
That is, the knowledge of the ’ does not correspond to reality and therefore it is a contradiction. And if you say that his knowledge changes after the choice, that is:
(past)________________
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . /(present)_{knowledge of the ’}___(future)
So in fact the choice changed the ’'s mind and he did not really know the future.
We have come to the conclusion that if the ’ knows the future, the timeline must look like this:
(past)________________(present)_{knowledge of the ’}___(future)
Notice that there is no forking of paths in the present, meaning there is no possibility of choice. Because if there is a split then either it will be meaningless (God's knowledge will change) or it will never be able to happen (a contradiction will arise between knowledge and reality).
The conclusion – God's knowledge of the future leaves no room for free choice. It creates a deterministic world with a single timeline, where everything is fixed from beginning to end.
Prov.
As I wrote, I tend to accept the conclusion, but I think you reached it because you presented it in your own way.
You place the knowledge on the branch that you know, but the argument of those who disagree is that the knowledge is located in the past before this branch.
Of course, this is just the way it is presented.
The knowledge itself is present throughout the entire span of time. Its presence on the branch symbolizes what it is, not where it is.
I understand that it is present in both the present and the past, but that is irrelevant to our purposes.
Instead of dealing with the specific question of whether it is possible to choose a time when there is knowledge of the future, I looked at it in a broader sense and showed that knowledge of the future entails the formation of a deterministic timeline, and from this we can understand the answer to this specific question.
I don't understand what the problem is with my argument.
I don't see a problem, but I don't see any added value either. This is the same argument I brought. It doesn't solve any problems that have arisen against it.
I think the following argument has been raised here before, but I still don't understand your answer.
According to you, it seems that God doesn't know what I chose in the past either.
Because if he does, then according to the meaning of possible worlds it follows that I was forced to choose this way.
The argument is the same:
1. Today God knows that I chose x.
2. There is no possible world in which God knows that I chose x but in fact I chose not x.
Conclusion: I was forced to choose x.
It is clear to me that here causality is not reversed, and therefore this is possible. But I think the argument I raised is enough to show that the meaning of possible worlds regarding the question of choice is wrong. In other words, even if in every possible world (which is similar in other details to our world) my choice is the same, this still does not show that I was forced to choose.
You answered yourself. Indeed, there is no possible world where it could have happened differently because it is in the past. But as I wrote in the column, it confuses me too.
I repeat myself. On second thought, you're right. I'm updating the column. Thank you very much.
Your Honor.
If Phil is right, and there is no influence from God's knowledge on the choice, then I am not a coercive, not even a coercive with will, and if it does have an effect that brings him to a state of coercion, then he is necessary.
Therefore, it seems to me that there is no way to escape the question according to Yehudit Ronen's formula, because in the end, even if we do not see causality in his knowledge, but something else that is not clear to define, we have not escaped the ability to choose, no matter what we call it, there is no way to change the knowledge that already exists.
As a yeshiva student, I heard many times the wonderful story of Rabbi Schach, who, following a question from one of the students, announced the next day that the general lesson he had given the previous night was based on a mistake.
I will admit and not be ashamed that I doubted the credibility of the story, and now I have been privileged to see eye to eye an example of that wonderful act of that time.
I am blessed to have been privileged
Phil.
Is your argument only about the Rabbi's conclusion about Ronen, or also about the implication on free choice?
Because in my opinion it is still difficult even if we do not see the causality in the end, another result is not possible.
Phil, I heard he came down in the middle of the lesson itself. I really had to grab the hem of his robe.
With apologies, I would like to return this discussion to its beginning. (What a snob, I think you could spend a lot of money suing Ahithophel for advising you to introduce full freedom of expression on your website…).
It is said that the Austrian emperor once asked Rabbi Jonathan Eybshitz: “Your words are good, your wisdom is good, here I am going on a hunting trip - which gate will I enter the city when I return”?
“That is an unfair question”, Rabbi Jonathan replied. “I do not say which gate, you will enter by another gate”.
“That is right”, the emperor replied. “Then write your answer on a piece of paper, fold it and put it in an envelope that will be sealed with the royal seal and placed in the treasury until I return from the hunt”.
Rabbi Jonathan agreed (and did he have a choice?), the sealed envelope was placed in the king's treasury and the emperor went hunting. On his way back, he wondered which gate to enter, and a brilliant idea occurred to him – to break through a new gate in the city wall and enter through it. “The Jewish rabbi certainly did not think of that”, he reflected with satisfaction.
After returning to his palace from the hunting trip, the emperor called all his ministers and advisors, including Rabbi Jonathan, and ordered the envelope to be brought and the rabbi's answer read aloud. To everyone's astonishment, it turned out that there was a single sentence written on the page: “The king … and broke through to make a way for him, and there was no one to show him” (Mishnah, Sanhedrin 1924).
Let's leave aside the question of the historical reliability of the story. What is important is not whether it happened, but whether it could have happened, and I think that there will be no dispute about its very possibility. If so, there could be information in the king's treasury regarding the gate through which the emperor would return from the hunt, even before the emperor mounted his horse, and yet, apparently the emperor acted out of completely free choice.
You will certainly argue that Rabbi Jonathan did not know what the emperor would do, but rather made a successful guess, and he could equally well have been wrong (or there was divine intervention here to prevent the rabbi from being disgraced). In other words, R’ Yehonatan chose from all possible futures the most likely one in his opinion, similar to an ideal chess program that knows how to draw all possible board states as a result of each move and chooses the most likely response move. (Such perfect software is not currently available to humanity, but there is no reason to assume that God has such software).
However, a guess is also a type of information, albeit uncertain, and successful guesses are pieces of information that exist today and predict the future. There are also “scientific” guesses (they are called by the explosive name “forecasts”) and you will be surprised, contrary to what many think, most professional economic forecasts (as opposed to the gibberish of studio journalists and the popular press), are quite accurate. Economic forecasting, unlike weather forecasting, predicts the behavior of markets operated by humans with free choice. The advanced models can also predict irrational behaviors, etc., and this is precisely what is impressive, and it is getting better without contradicting anyone's free choice.
Assuming that God's abilities are no less than those of Rabbi Yonatan Eybshitz and that He has at His disposal more advanced models than even those known to me (such as: that ultimate "chess program"), He is apparently able to know even the future that depends on free choice with such great accuracy that errors are negligible and their probability is zero. (Perhaps we can burden the matter with the words of the Rabbi and the Shelah? and so on.)
And with all that, I'm not at all sure that the logical contradiction is important. As I mentioned, I have great respect for logic, but I don't give it absolute trust. We'll discuss why and how on another occasion.
You answered it yourself. It was a good guess. By the way, I know the story about R”T in the Crusades. And I did hear it about R”I Eybshitz, too, but that's not wise because all the stories are about him.
Indeed, I wrote that it may have been nothing more than a successful guess, but I added two claims:
(a) Even a guess, and in particular an intelligent guess, is a type of information (albeit uncertain).
(b) God can make guesses no less successful than Mr. Jonathan's and with an infinitely high level of accuracy, since He is able to "calculate" the entire "game tree" of this world, and choose from it the most probable "game" (path, in the language of game theorists). (Or in the language of chess players, He is able to draw the entire game tree of chess and "guess" the specific game that will be played from now on.)
Therefore, from a practical point of view, it can be said that God “knows” even the future that depends on choice with a level of certainty that is reasonable, even if not 100% certain. If the very belief in His existence cannot be proven with absolute certainty (and you wrote an entire book about this), then for me the level of divine certainty in “guessing” the future is enough for me to consider God as knowing the future of choice as well. I will not belittle Him about Epsilon (and thanks to this, He will also “slip” me over some Pauls I will).
And I still wonder if it is possible to burden things with the languages of the Rav and the Shelah, etc.
All of this, of course, if we accept your logical conclusion that God cannot know the future of His chosen ones with certainty. (I repeat and note this for the sake of fairness, but, as I mentioned, I am not 100% convinced but prefer not to enter into this debate in these troubling days).
PS, as it seems to me that the story in the Crusades is about Rashi and not about R. T. The Austrian branch of my Austro-Hungarian family insisted that the story I brought is about R. Eybsitz and the Austro-Hungarian Emperor, and it is dangerous to argue with Austrians.
On the 15th of Iyar 5771
To Rabbi Mordechai, Shalom Rav,
There is historical information about Rabbi Yonatan Eybshitz about his conversations with Christian scholars. In his books, he mentions things he asked from the scholars of the Prague Academy. Such connections also existed in Prague with Rabbi Yonatan's predecessors, and the connections of the Maharal of Prague with Tycho Brahe are known.
It must be assumed that in the generations after the Renaissance there was more openness to this type of academic connections than in France during the Crusades. At that time, there were more debates between Christians who tried to prove to the scholars of Israel the truth of Christianity from the Holy Scriptures. Debates that contributed to the great work of the French sages, Rashi and his disciples, in a simple explanation of the Bible, much of which confronts the arguments of Christians.
With greetings, Sh”tsl
By the way, Mahar”l and Tycho Brahe – In Netzach Yisrael’ Mahar’l explains why sin is more prevalent among the chosen people of Israel, through the idea that when a force is applied in one direction, an opposing force is applied against it. An idea that Newton (a student of Kepler, a student of Brahe) would later turn into one of the fundamental laws of physics.
Indeed, I was wrong. It's really about Rashi.
I don't think that foreknowledge with a high level of certainty leads to determinism. The philosophical question is not a practical question. It deals with the question of whether we have a choice. As long as it's not 100% round, there is a choice. A good psychological forecast does not contradict a choice.
Sh”„l, I mentioned in the column that Yossi Potter raised this possibility here. And I answered him.
Is it possible that we are getting closer to an agreement on something? (Did God foresee this?)
That is, do we agree that in your opinion, too, the conclusion that God “does not know” the future of the elect is too hasty. He may not know with 100% certainty, but 100% less epsilon do you “allow” him? (And he will surely thank you).
As mentioned, it is in your opinion that I am not convinced of it as I mentioned, but now it sounds much less radical and provocative. Ostensibly, this intention can be loaded with the language of the Rav, regarding the Shelha it is less clear, and so on.
And by association, about two years ago (I think) someone proposed a "quantum" electrical switch to Shabbat. (The idea was that pressing the switch activates the electrical device with a probability less than 1 based on a quantum mechanism. I'm not familiar with the details since I'm not a physicist, maybe you're familiar with that idea). Rabbi Asher Weiss firmly rejected the idea, and his main argument was that even a certainty "very close" to 1 is enough to consider the activation of the switch a "revolutionary switch" for everything.
This is of course possible, but in my opinion not true.
I never claimed anything about the chance that he will be right in predicting his future. On the contrary, I have consistently claimed that it is not important at all, and I claim this now as well. As I claimed in my book on free will, even if in the Libet experiment you predict the future action with a probability of 99%, it does not say anything about the question of free will.
To the same extent, people are confused and think that if the future cannot be predicted due to technical difficulties (chaos) it is related to free choice, which it is not.
At most, we can say that we have never had an argument on this subject. We both agree that God does not know the future but only estimates what it is likely to be.
Regarding the quantum switch, I have not heard of it, but I disagree with Rabbi Weiss. The question is not a question of probability, but of the probabilistic mechanism. A distinction must be made between a classical action with a probability of 90% and a quantum action with a probability of 90%. It seems to me that this is related to the well-known dispute between the Taz and Reka regarding the doubt of the Risha ruling. In any case, one way or another, it does not concern the subject under discussion.
As far as I am concerned, if the Almighty were to grill answers about what will happen in the future, and would come out of it as always right, it still would not be called knowing. To expect is not to know. To know is to expect, but not vice versa. And certainly not when the expectation is not one hundred percent (and it does not matter how much less).
Do you think such a quantum switch would be permissible? That's strange, how can an action that aims to violate Shabbat be permissible because it won't necessarily happen? A quantum switch is a rule about something *that is not intended*, but in our case, if it does intend to turn on the light, it is clear that it would be prohibited even if the probability is 0.0001 percent.
You are of course right. From Rabbi Weiss' reasoning, I understood that this is a situation of unintentionality, and that is why I said that a distinction should be made between quantum and classical chance. If this is a deliberate action, then it does not belong at all to unintentionality. Perhaps this can be seen as grama (there are opinions that certainty in the result is included in the definition of grama. One of the opinions of the Ramban in the pamphlet Dina Degrami and more)
On the 17th of Iyar 5722
There is a fundamental difference between the explanation of Rabbi Yitzhak ben Sheshet in the barn (the Rivash) and the discussions of Yehudit Ronen and Newcomb. They try to understand a situation in which an observer who is within the natural system can naturally observe the future without affecting it, such as a parapsychologist (discussed by Yehudit Ronen) – and on the face of it there is a built-in fallacy, for if someone who is in the present can observe this information now – the present means that the cause of the future change already exists now.
In contrast, the Rivash speaks only of the divine observer, who is not limited by the limitations of time and place, who alone can observe the future without turning it into the present. No prophet can, by his natural power, see the future in the present, unless he has received a message about it from the Creator, and therefore the prophet's ability to say the word "Adad" proves that he has received a message about it from the Creator that only he can foresee the future.
And through Tzachot it is said,
Just as the creature limited by the boundaries of nature cannot create Perpetum Mobile – so the creature cannot reach the consciousness of Perpetum Mobile 🙂
With blessings, Sh”t
Perhaps according to the ‘Theory of Relativity’ there is a situation where two people can be at the same time at different times, as described in the ’Twin Paradox’, where a few years pass for the twin flying in space, while decades pass for his ’slowly moving’ brother on Earth.
Ostensibly, the brother in space can observe his brother on Earth and see his future, without this affecting the decisions of the brother on Earth.. If I understood correctly, Yossi Puter commented on this in his response to one of the previous posts., so perhaps in humans too there can be a reality of foreseeing the future that does not affect him..
In any case, in discussing the abilities of God, there is no need to find parallels in humans, since it is clear that the Creator is not limited by the vagaries of space and time..
With blessings, Sh”t
You don't need the theory of relativity for this.
There is no reason to put consciousness at the beginning of time or at the end of time or at any other time. But that's only if it holds that consciousness is the end of causes. The final result. And that it is not a cause of anything.
And regarding the theory of relativity. It is much easier to imagine a situation where a person is near a black hole and there he also sees the entire future passing at high speed. But this has no causal consequence from the future to the past. And it is not clear what you are trying to conclude from this. (You might ask when one should put on tefillin in such a situation)
If God does not know what will happen in the future, what is the place of the prayer of petition?
I didn't understand the question. You ask and he will do it. What does this have to do with predicting your own actions (the choices)?
I think there may be a division between two types of prophets that I suggested last time and will try to elaborate here, which in my opinion both on the one hand rejects the apparent contradiction in the deterministic explanation of the Newcomb paradox, and on the other hand, rejects the apparent contradiction between foreknowledge and choice:
1. The deterministic prophet who knows only the present – This prophet is not endowed with any shred of ability to ”draw” information from the future into the present – All the information he has is only the information in the present. But in the present he knows everything – He also knows all the laws of physics (and therefore also psychology) and he also knows the exact state of affairs in the world at the moment of the prediction.
Such a prophet can know exactly what the voter in the Newcomb paradox will choose, and all his considerations, and therefore will always be able to put or not put the money in the sealed box. Since everything is causal, and he knows the current reasons, and all the laws, he can derive the voter's decision from them.
2. The omniscient prophet who also knows the future – This prophet does not rely on knowledge of the present, but is able to extract information from the future. This prophet will also succeed in the case of freedom of choice to know the future, because even though the reasons for the choice do not exist at the prediction stage, he can extract the information from the future. When the ”reason” for his knowledge is the future choice and not vice versa.
In both cases, everything works as it should when the prophet does not influence the voter in any way. As soon as the prophet influences the voter, the choice will be affected. In the case of the omniscient prophet, if he hints at something about the future choice, the choice may be negated (whether the voter actually acts like the choice, or if he does “exactly” and chooses against it). But as long as he keeps the choice to himself, there is no causal chain that will lead from his knowledge to the choice, and therefore the choice will be completely free.
In the case of the deterministic prophet and the transparent box – If the sealed box is now transparent, the prophet will have a very clear influence on the voter's choice, and therefore the prophecy will fail. It should be noted that the prophet will still know exactly what will happen, but he is simply unable to put any amount in the box that will come out right. The disadvantage is not in his knowledge, but in his ability to put in the box or not to put in the box. For he certainly knows that if he puts the million in the box she will choose and if he does not, she will not choose.
I'm no longer holding my head. Are you talking about a deterministic voter? If the voter is not deterministic, how will the deterministic prophet know what he will choose?
And regarding the all-knowing prophet, I ask what is the correct strategy for the voter in such a situation? There are two correct answers here that contradict each other.
I hoped that I wrote in an orderly and concise manner that would be clear. To the best of my judgment, I addressed all the reservations you wrote, and it seems to me that my approach is coherent, but I understand that there is a load and therefore it is difficult to get into depth here.
I am not sure that I understand the questions, but I will answer:
When I wrote the deterministic prophet, I meant a prophet in a deterministic worldview with a deterministic voter.
Regarding the voter's strategy in such a situation, it is clear that he has no way of receiving both sums and therefore it is certainly better for him to choose the sealed box, because he cannot defeat the prophet who knows how to penetrate the depths of his psychology and make his considerations better than him.
So we're back to the beginning. Why wouldn't he take the second box? What's in the first one is already there. We're going around ourselves, although as I wrote, I'm not sure myself here.
Yes, I answered that – the deterministic prophet knows all the intricacies of a person's thoughts and will be able to predict every type of consideration he will make.
I also think that I completely dropped the ground from under the transparent box problem, when I argued that the disadvantage is not in the prophet's knowledge but in his ability to put or not put the money in the box. Because in any case he will know what the voter will do even if it is impossible for him to express it by the act of putting the money in.
Regarding the deterministic selector, I think I answered. It is also viewable by me (you don't need to be a prophet for that).
Regarding the transparent box, I understand. I think you are right. I am adding another correction to the column. I am already exhausted from all this, but thanks to all the commenters who helped me clarify this exhausting and confusing issue. 🙂
Regarding note [5], a short Torah comment: It is common practice everywhere to cite the words of Rabbi Eliezer as an explanation for the creation of the world from a being, even though this has always puzzled me, since the plain meaning of the Bible indicates creation from a being, and not from nothing as is the common interpretation. If you notice, in the Creation (all of Chapter 1), the word “earth” appears several times, in three different meanings. One meaning: “earth” – in the sense of dry land only, such as in verse 10: “And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas.” Second meaning: ‘Earth’, in the sense of dry land and sea together, meaning everything under the sky, such as verse 17: “And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth”. Third meaning: ‘Earth’ – in the sense of the entire universe, such as in verse 2: “And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep”. According to these meanings, it can be seen that in the first verse the word ‘Earth’ comes in the second meaning, since heaven and earth are mentioned together in the verse. Therefore, the first verse serves as a kind of title or opening to the entire chapter, and does not necessarily deal with the actual process of creation. That is, the first verse declares and declares to the reader that the one responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth as they are before us today is God. The actual order of creation actually begins in detail only from verse 2. And this verse itself indicates that the “earth” (in the third sense, meaning the entire universe) already existed, only the “earth” (the entire primordial universe) was in one big mess, and God made order in it. And this is really what God actually did: He separated, distinguished, arranged, and introduced organization into all the primordial mess. Some claim that the word creation (in Genesis 1:1) literally means "to come into being out of nothing," and the word "creation" means "to come into being out of nothing," but this is not true, because in verse 21 it says: "And God created the great crocodiles," and in verse 27: "And God created man...", and they became "to come into being out of nothing." In fact, there is not the slightest hint in the entire first chapter that the world was created out of nothing. The Bible simply states that the universe is ancient. There is no hint of material coming into being out of nothing, the Bible simply assumes that this material (the "earth" in verse 2) already existed. It is interesting to finally understand that the writers of the Bible simply believed that the world was created from nothing, that is the simplicity of the text. Admittedly, the interpretation that the world was created from nothing has gained ground (unjustly) as the correct interpretation, because the idea of "there is nothing" is more appropriate to the idea of the abstract and necessary monotheistic God. This does not fit so well with God that the universe is ancient. In short, the words of Rabbi Eliezer are more in line with the opinion of the writers of the biblical text. And this is a very common error in biblical interpretation, to change the interpretation according to the changing times, so that it reflects the current approach of the interpreter, when in most cases these interpretations are mistaken. The Maimonides' well-known puzzlement over the words of Rabbi Eliezer also suffers from this shortcoming. It is difficult for the Maimonides to "swallow" The fact that the writers of the Bible simply believed that the world was ancient. If there are any philosophical contradictions in this, well, never mind, they simply didn't notice it... Many commentators are constantly interpreting the text in a way that doesn't contradict their modern views, which is why the interpretation of the Bible changes so much.
The first guru who addressed the issue was not mentioned and I see a need to cite his words that clarify the issue.
Ras”G claims that if divine knowledge were a reason for the existence of things, this would indeed be a great difficulty, but if it is not - God's knowledge is only a sign that the thing will happen, and therefore the problem is more solvable.
The rest of his words excuse the problem of knowledge as a sign that a person will choose in a certain way: He says that if a person were to ultimately choose the opposite - we would later say that God knew that he would do the opposite. And it seems to me that what he means is that in reality in the world there is no God's knowledge of what a person will choose, except only after the thing happens - and only then do we say that God He knew it retroactively, and therefore it is impossible to say that there is knowledge in the world that is a sign that man is not truly free.
(Of course, when something is said to a prophet, it is obligatory to justify why it does not negate choice - like the Rambam and HaRavd's justifications for knowledge that was not revealed, but it is not that difficult)
Rambam, on the other hand, says in the Mūn explicitly that God's knowledge of the world is the cause of its reality, and therefore this whole direction does not fit into his method.
In light of what is said here, the conclusion is not necessarily that he does not know. He does know, and yet it does not force the choice. This is the film's theory. According to this, one can also tell the prophet without violating the freedom to choose.
And by the way, Phil's words that convinced you - we can also give the credit to Riya - "because the knowledge of what will be is not a reason for its existence, while the knowledge of what has been is not a reason for its existence, but rather evidence of it" (evidence - what I read as a sign. The Khazari continues with the Rasag method)
Indeed. But such credits are a delicate matter. People often make a correct argument without being aware of all the folds within it and all the arguments and counterarguments that it itself resolves.
And regarding the concept of necessity in the face of ” all possible worlds “: Necessity is created because there is a causal relationship - if because He knows that I will do a mitzvah then in every possible world I will do a mitzvah – then we can say that in every possible world it is equal to necessity because the knowledge caused this not logically but in practice (it is what prevented a world that is incompatible). But if we only have evidence that this will be the case, there is no factor here that contradicts the possibility that this was done by choice - as in relation to the past (the other worlds were not ruled out by the knowledge)
Again, this is the argument that was raised here. See my addition in red.
I want to emphasize the paradox in the new argument (in red), and I quote it for this purpose –
“According to you, it seems that God does not know what I chose in the past either. Because if He does, then by the definition of possible worlds it follows that I had to choose that way. The argument is the same argument:
A. Today God knows that I chose X.
B. There is no possible world in which God knows that I chose x but in fact I chose not X.
C. Conclusion: I had to choose X.”
I think the inference here is problematic, and I will illustrate it by formulating it differently –
A. Today God knows that the world is round
B. There is no possible world in which God knows that it is round, but in fact it is flat
C. Conclusion – It is necessary that the world is round
That is certainly not true….So I think that when referring to the past, the necessity is actually – God knows X if and only if X is true. That is, line b basically just says that there is no possible world in which God is wrong.
But with respect to the future, if we assume a choice, there is simply no truth and error (because the information does not exist). And if he did know – that would indeed contradict the choice.
I don't see the argument. It's true, the argument about the world being round is parallel to Phil's argument, and this is indeed proof that the concept of possible worlds does not capture the issue of necessity. You're just repeating Phil's argument.
Line A makes an empirical claim – reality is X
Line B makes an a priori claim – God knows X, it follows that X is true.
It does not follow that reality is X “necessarily”. If line A were different, line B would also be different. The combination of the assumptions only teaches us that reality “right now” is necessarily X – because it is simply an existing fact.
But in knowledge and choice this does not work – because in this situation line B (the assertion that X is true) precedes line A (the empirical existence of it), and in any case line A cannot be different, and becomes necessary.
I apologize if I'm being rude, I admit and am ashamed that I didn't read the entire food chain here…
And a simple comment for site maintenance will appear – Given the nature of the comments here, which sometimes extend beyond the average talkback, perhaps it would be appropriate to allow highlighting/italics/underlining, and other effects.
Private Providence found me, at a very interesting timing, the above video in which Ramada's opinion is mentioned, and the failures of his position.
Let the judge judge.
https://youtu.be/yReFDbf6TLU
In the 2017 G.L. BaOmer
The lectures of Rabbi Dr. Doron Ledvin:
A. ‘Free Choice in Light of Brain Research’ (to which he linked ‘Tam’)
B. ‘The Brain as a Quantum Computer’ (in the Department of ‘Science and Consciousness’ of Bar-Ilan University)
And a concise review:’Physicist Doron Ledvin: Free Choice at the Quantum Level’
are available on the ‘Ratio’ website.
Best regards, Gal Quentin [aka: Shtsl = Two Sides of Reality]
1. I read the columns with pure pleasure, your words are a feast for the eyes. I have been striving in this direction since the beginning, and I am happy about the sources you have collected. Especially the words of the Shel”. I would explain the Maimonides as coming to excuse the imperfection of the ’ that stems from His lack of knowledge, and therefore he explains that human and earthly knowledge is not at all one of His attributes, and therefore a defect in it does not impair the perfection of the ’ attributes. While the heavenly knowledge is His very being and all creation is a result of it, and therefore He knows all possible scenarios although He does not know which of them will come to pass.
2. What is your method regarding the choice of animals? The Shel”, for example, can argue that only with regard to a person for whom we have a necessity from the reward system – is the knowledge of the ’ lacking regarding his choice. But regarding animals that are not punished or rewarded - God knows the future because they have no choice. If we do accept this, it is clear that God knows more about the leaf that will fall and cast a shadow on the worm in a hundred years than He knows about my situation tomorrow, because God's abilities in analyzing the data from which various situations in the future necessarily arise are not in doubt. After all, even though the Rishonim's method is that providence exists only with regard to man and not with regard to benefit and the leaf - future knowledge is stronger there, while providence is a constantly living maneuver with man. (In the past, however, in your opinion?)
3. I would be happy if you could give me some logical explanation according to the principle of kindness in Maimonides' words in Chapter 8 of his chapters, where he claims that although the individual is not necessarily at all, God can To expect sins of the whole, because it is inevitable that some of the whole will sin. I think this is a mistake, but too blatant for Maimonides. If every individual can choose not to sin, how can the whole sin for sure?
With greetings
1. Thank you.
2. I don't know. But it is clear that if they have no choice, there is no reason to know what will happen to them in the future (except for what the person decides to do to them).
3. This is similar to what he said in the reply to the question. I explained the matter in my book The Sciences of Freedom that it is possible for a public to sin even though each individual is not obligated to. Your question is what the Rabbi made difficult for him there, but the law of large numbers says that it is possible to predict what the public will do with a very high probability (almost 1) even though each individual acts freely. Just as when rolling a die, each roll is random, but when you roll it many times, the results will be distributed 1/6 to each side.
All my life I have been settling the question as the Rabbis said and as the third option you presented with Yehudit Ronen and others of the commenters here. Newcomb's paradox was not difficult for me, I understood the matter this way. The axis of time and the axis of causality are not necessarily the same thing (yes in the physical world, but not necessarily). The choice is what circled the divine knowledge and therefore is free. Newcomb's paradox stems from the fact that the axis of causality has become a loop (He knows what I choose, but I choose because He knows) and causality has no beginning. In literature, this paradox is explored in Robert Heinlein's excellent story "Ye Living Dead" or in the film based on it (also excellent) "Foreordained Fate".
Some time ago I came across the litmus test for this method. The first verse in the parshah of Beshalach. “And it came to pass, when Pharaoh sent the people away, that God did not comfort them by the way of the land of the Philistines, for it was near, for God said, Lest the people should be comforted when they see war, and return from Egypt”. The lion cub asks instead how it is said of the Holy One, “lest” that He does not know. According to this method, this is of course a pishta. The Holy One knows the choice in advance because it was chosen and it surrounded His knowledge. He has no way of knowing according to this a hypothetical choice, what would I choose if I did so and so. Such knowledge is truly something that contradicts the choice, because it requires that there be something essential that makes it possible to know the choice, and therefore it is not a choice.
Ostensibly, this is confirmation of this method from an explicit verse, and there is no need for the lion cub to elaborate. What is more, the verse opens the Nicomedian paradox to God Himself. When did He choose not to take the children of Israel by the way of the Philistines? He must have always known that this would be his choice because he knows that he does not know what the Israelites would do if he took them through the land of the Philistines. If he knows that he does not know, then he already knows in advance what he chose. It could be said that his choice and his advice come together, and there is no problem here because we are discussing the cause of causes. A causal loop in itself, and therefore it is less about him. Still, the verse is a bit puzzling, because the verse presents a process of decision-making. I do X because Y, and this is a bit problematic in the literal sense of the verse. Here it means at least pointing to a direction of ignorance, or at least the Torah revelation of it
In the book of Morah Nevuchim 3:20, the solution to the above question is explained. And it is indeed a solution.
The meaning of “knowledge” in G‑d is that He is the Creator, sustainer, and ruler of the world, and therefore everything that is done is by His power. He created the laws of nature and psychology, and therefore all the billions of possible combinations of human actions were foreseen in advance (everything is predictable), and the response to them was planned in advance and is built into the world. In this respect, they are in His knowledge.
The discussion about G‑d assumes that we have a priori knowledge of a divine being, and we inquire into its details. And it is not. The starting point for the human perception of the being is an aggregation of the laws of physics, chemistry, biology, psychology, sociology, and religion, and leads to a unified perception of a supreme being transcendent to the world. In our case, it is clear that this entity has knowledge.
Newcomb's paradox with the transparent boxes and what Ariel commented about it reminded me of the halting problem in computation (Computer Science https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%99%D7%AA_%D7%94%D7%A2%D7%A6%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%94 )
Is there a program that can tell any other program in the world whether it will ever halt? The answer is no, and the proof is very simple and similar to the case here.
In the proof, we try to see what will happen if a program that does the opposite of its input receives itself as its input (it will do the opposite of itself? How is that possible?)
Similarly here, the prophet actually has to do the “opposite” From the voter (if the voter chooses both boxes then put 0, if he chooses one, put a million) but the voter does the opposite of the prophet, it turns out that the prophet has to do the opposite of himself, which is impossible, so the prophecy will fail.
I didn't understand Ariel's words saying that the prophet knew what would happen (but the prophecy failed, right?). And of course he won't be able to put the correct amount in the box, because he doesn't know the future because the prophecy failed.
What am I missing?
Who is Ariel? Do you expect me to now go through this entire thread and find out who you are talking about and what you mean?
If you have a question please state it fully here and then maybe we can discuss it.
Ariel, you edited the post in blue.
I'm sorry, but this is too much for me right now. It's hard for me to get into all this complicated negotiation right now.
In general, I would say that it does indeed seem that the halting problem definitely plays a role here in the background, if only in relation to the prophet's ability to know what the voter will do. The prophet is supposed to calculate the result of the voter's calculation and know what it will be. But note that if the prophet sees the future, this is not related to the halting problem, because the prophet does not check the voter's software, which may not be possible for a prophet who is a Turing machine, but directly observes what he will do in the future.
Regarding Phil's contradiction:
Today God knows that I chose (in the past) X.
There is no possible world in which God knows that I chose (in the past) x but in fact I chose something else.
Conclusion: I had to choose X.
This reminds me of logical determinism. For example, a person has 2 options to act from, to do action X. Or action Y. Now we replace “God knows that I chose X” with ”God knows that the value of the statement I chose X is true”. The following statement will be created:
Today God knows that the value of the statement I chose X (in the past) is true.
There is no possible world in which God knows that the value of the statement I chose X (in the past) is true but in fact the value of the statement I chose X is false.
Conclusion: The value of the statement I chose X (in the past) must be true, meaning I had to choose X. This is of course the well-known logical determinism argument that you have refuted in several columns.
In conclusion, the mere knowledge of an action that was done in the past does not change anything because it is actually an argument similar to logical determinism. On the other hand, knowledge of an action that occurred in the future is different because here the information about the future action does not exist, and this still makes me accept the claim that God cannot know our future actions (and not accept the claim that there is no contradiction between foreknowledge of the action and free will).
(The issue is complicated and I am not sure how accurate I am, so if anyone has any comments, they are welcome to write).
The paradox of knowledge and choice stems from the assumption that He is omnipotent, which then supposedly means He is omniscient, and if not, then He is not called omnipotent. And here you have concluded that He does not know the choice, and in fact, it is a kind of violation of all His abilities, from a certain perspective. And so it is with the ”paradox” of the very creation of the world, which shows that He is supposedly not omnipotent, that He needed/had a certain need to create the world, a need that without the creation of the world He would not have achieved. That seemingly the obvious conclusion from this situation is the same conclusion that you concluded from the paradox of knowledge and choice, that He does not know the choice. And even though I knew that you would say that it is not related because God's submission to the laws of logic does not violate all His abilities, or any other explanation you might give.
So I say that this very thing of God's submission to the laws of logic is a kind of “paradox”
And in the words of Rubin in his book “What God Cannot Do”.
“It is clear that the problem is far from trivial, and both possibilities raise serious philosophical and theological problems, as woe to the creators woe to the Egyptians. On the one hand, God's submission to the laws of logic and mathematics means that something was already there before God, and exists even without him – a nightmare for any monotheistic theologian. Furthermore, the pretension of a limited human mind to determine what the infinite God can and cannot do raises immediate reservations, and this is especially acute in the modern era, when it is increasingly becoming clear that even the most basic laws of thought are nothing more than categories of subjective human cognition. How can one accept in such a situation that God is subject to the laws of logic and mathematics in the human mind, which He Himself created? We may therefore be tempted to the other side, but upon examination, it also seems quite problematic. If God is not subject to mathematics, what is the meaning of the fundamental belief of monotheism – the unity of God? After all, from the point of view of God, 1=2 can also be a true statement, and why the insistence on one God in particular? Furthermore: if God is not subject to logic, then PA-P may also be accepted as a true statement with regard to him, and if so there is no point in insisting even on the very existence of God, who from his point of view does not exist even when he exists, and exists even when he does not exist. In general, the more we exempt any superior object from logic, the sooner we will discover that we cannot say anything meaningful about it. Throughout the entire book, we therefore move between these two impossible possibilities”.
Correct me if I am wrong, or if you disagree.
Thank you
I have explained this countless times. The fact that Rubin states that there is a problem with this does not change the fact that there is no problem with this. The laws of logic are not laws and therefore God is not “subject”to them. This is just misleading wording.
Okay
In any case, I didn't understand how it is possible to say that the Creator does know the future while He does not know the choice of man.
After all, he is a liar, He can be mistaken, because the future can change, depending on the choice of billions of people with choice.
Maybe you meant that He decides the future, we mean a certain future, we say that the Messiah will come whenever He wants, well that is clear, because He can do everything, including cancel the choice. But apparently saying that He knows the future even though He does not know what billions of people with choice will choose is not clear.
If you disagree, I would be happy to explain this.
He knows everything that does not depend on human choice. He can also know what the law of large numbers will dictate, that is, the collective behavior of a large group of people, while each individual has the freedom to choose. This is what the Maimonides and the Rabbis discussed in the P'ho Mahal Teshuva, and I have elaborated on it.
Everything that can be deduced from statistical mathematics is something we also know, so doesn't God have an advantage over us here?
Good luck. If you could keep me informed about impending disasters and plans to harm me, I would be very grateful.
Wait a minute, I don't understand. Do you believe that through statistical mathematics/the law of large numbers the Creator knew the future, knew from the beginning of creation that there would be such a thing called a pelphon? What kind of statistics can predict this?
And what will happen to Ba in a million years?
Maybe. Everything related to the law of large numbers.
Okay
So if I understood correctly (and correct me if not)
that the Creator does not know the future that can be known by the law of large numbers.
And from your answer I understand that no one knows what can be known by the law of large numbers, so that in the end we know which futures he knows and which he does not.
indeed
Where did you extend this, I would be happy to refer you
Because in this response there is no contradiction/answer to what I wrote
Because it is not yet called knowing the future
Because it can be mistaken
Because it is a future that ultimately depends on the choices of billions of people
We say, can he know what will happen to a certain tree that does not have a choice? Not exactly, because a person with a choice can decide to cut it down or not. And how could he know that.
Did the Creator know that people would reach the moon, since it is their choice?
Did he know that there would be a Holocaust or October 7, since it depends on the people's choice.
So what did he know
If a certain ant died? He doesn't monitor that at all
He knew that Bibi would have so many terms, it depends on the choice (literally) of B.A.
If we have already concluded that there is a choice and he doesn't know, then what's the problem with saying that he doesn't know anything about the future, after all, what's the fear that if Russia decides to destroy his world, he knows the present at a given moment, he can at that moment either stop pulling the trigger or catch the missile in the air. And even if it's a lot of missiles and from several countries, he is omnipotent, he has no physical limitations, what is his or our pressure to know the future, in any case, as stated, he cannot.
B - Second point In the end, you and we all admit in the light of life that it is only his desire not to know the future, because he can cancel the choice and know the future anyway, do you disagree with that?
A. Everything has been explained. There is no point in repeating it.
B. No. I also wrote this in the columns about knowledge and choice.
Another question
I didn't see this simple claim made about the method that claims that the Creator knows the choice in advance
If the Creator already knows the choice in advance then why did He create this whole game and all the chaos that will put us straight in the pit of hell
I don't think this claim necessarily rules out such a possibility
Isn't that so? If not I would be happy to explain
Of course I can argue against this that so that we don't suspect Him and so on, because He can also manage to plant in our minds this understanding, this feeling or not think about it at all, especially since the Creator has no limitations for this method, certainly not such a one
I am not engaged in defenses of positions with which I disagree. There are theses here about events that are reversed in time (you do the deed and then He knows in advance retroactively (from here and in the future retroactively) what you will do. But as I said, I am not engaged in that.
Again, regarding your assertion that time always exists and that the Creator is not above time,
But if we believe in judgment and accountability after death, and a huge number of people die in the world at any moment (and, of course, even animals have an accounting)? And this is in addition to other things that must be given their "time," and how can someone who is not above time, or in any case has a different concept of time, do this? Can they judge the truth?
If possible, a Hebrew translation. I am not sure that time has always existed, nor that the Creator is not above time (I do not understand this sentence at all).
I mean, how do we discuss the problem of knowledge and choice, which is a problem that is actually related to ”time” (knowing the future already in the past), and certainly if we decide as a result that we can indeed know the future, if we actually do not understand how ”time” works for him, if at all (of course, as you mentioned, a concept that is not understandable), such as the example I mentioned, that someone who is subject to time cannot accomplish what is supposed to be accomplished by someone who is supposed to give reward and punishment after death, because at every moment of time there is a huge amount of dead people.
And after all, we believe in reward and punishment, so we necessarily believe that they are not concepts of time like ours (what is called “above time”), so the same goes for the problem of choice and knowledge?
Thank you
I don't understand what the question is here. What does it mean how time works for him? Time does not work, neither for us nor for him. Time is a category through which we think, and also when we think about God. Therefore, it is absolutely irrelevant to discuss how time works for him (whatever the interpretation of this sentence may be).
Well, leave these definitions aside
What is clear is that we have some misunderstanding about time, how does he manage to do all of the above within the framework of the time category known to us, right?
(If not, I would be happy to explain)
So also in the matter of knowing and choosing the answer, we have no understanding of how time goes by in a way that does not contradict our choice
If I understood correctly (even though you said you are not involved in defending them, I feel obliged to clarify this point for me, so please forgive me)
You mean that they mean that he needs it to actually happen so that he knows it before it happens?
We would also believe that he is above time
And that he can also have logical contradictions
(If I understand correctly that it is himself who is above time or that there is such a thing above time, it is against logic, because you believe that just as logic is not laws that he created, so is time?)
This is exactly why I do not engage in explaining opinions that I do not agree with. After I explain, you make it difficult for them what I myself make difficult. So what is the point of this? A ceramic gebra?!
See Rambam, in the same book, Giroshin, chapter 19, verse 11, where the words are explained there. The M.M. insisted on this (i.e. chapter 8, verse 22), his words were quoted in the life of Rabbi Yehuda HaCohen, a copy of the booklet on the Tannaim printed at the end of his Chiddushei Gitin. See the explanation of his words there and be very pleased.
A- Please, not Rami Gabra Agbra. I'm just asking Tamiyahu, Matuniyahu, and Didahu, and I can't ask them either because I'll probably get an infantile answer.
In any case, the ”Nachat” I only heard this from your knowledge of the M.M. and Rabbi Shekap, but it seems to me that you are only joking (or satiating) the Japanese name because it has nothing to do with the fact that conditional laws can stipulate that after it happens, it will apply retroactively before it happens, and the woman will be considered divorced since then, that there is no mixing of times, but rather a total clarification or decision retroactively of what her law was then, but no one knew then what her law was only retroactively. We apply or decide on her all kinds of halachic laws for what she did then, and it is not like the Creator will have knowledge before it actually happens, only after she actually reads
B- Following your words that you answered me elsewhere a few days ago
https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%A7%D7%93%D7%9E
%D7%95%D7%AA/
So basically if time had always existed And the Creator has also always existed (in time) Is this a concept that we can understand? Were there time without a beginning?
And you said in the articles on knowledge and choice that it doesn't matter that on his part it is not a contradiction (for example), on our part it is not possible to believe in contradictory things or in things that are not understood logically
So how is it appropriate for us to believe in a Creator who always exists in time (something that is not logically understandable to us) and in fact we also cannot grasp what this frightening thing is, a Creator that no one created (it is essentially the same thing as time without a beginning and a Creator that always exists in which we would have created no one) It is not grasped logically so how can we believe in such a Creator?
And of course, creation without a Creator is also not grasped,
So it follows that ”faith” is in something that is not grasped by reason, not understood logically?
So if we are expected to believe in something that is not logically perceived (a creator without a creator, a creator who is always present in time without a starting point in time), then is it also possible to believe that He knows in advance what you will choose with your free will without any external factor? Is this acceptable to reason and faith just as acceptable to a creator without a creator or time without a beginning?
It is possible that the immense pleasure of my extraordinary knowledge has hidden from you that the above statement has a direct reference to our discussion: something must actually happen for the application to take place, even though it is already completely clear that it will happen. Read again.
There is no such thing as 'not perceived logically'. There is a logical contradiction and there is something that is not perceived in our knowledge. A logical contradiction does not exist either in God Almighty or in general, and something that is not perceived can certainly exist. God Almighty is also not perceived and He exists to the best of my understanding.
If I understand correctly, you could also say that something that is not perceived by our consciousness does not exist for us
such as time without a beginning and a creator without a creator
Just because a material world without a creator is not perceived by our consciousness, do you prefer the less improbable possibility?
And as Sherlock Holmes (The Seal of the Four) said, after you have eliminated the impossible, what remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
I could say everything, but I won't. The question is not what I can say, but what I say and why.
Wait, I'm really trying to understand, please help me,
So really why do you say that what is not perceived by our consciousness does exist? Do you have proof of this? So what is it?
Or again just because of what I said that it is more likely? So I didn't understand what I did wrong?
I'm not saying that what is not perceived exists. I'm saying that the fact that it is not perceived doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Each thing in its own right.
Okay, each to its own
So why do you decide here that even though it is not perceived, it does exist? Because it is improbable that there is a world without a creator?
So that's what I said, you choose what seems least improbable to you (according to Mr. Sherlock), so again, where did I go wrong?
Forgiveness is not just a philosophical dig, it's about the origin of the world.
I suggest we don't look for general criteria. It's impossible to answer that. If you have a concrete question about something I've adopted that seems illogical or incomprehensible to you, ask about it.
A- Okay, and I thought I asked this explicitly above,
So again I agree that it is illogical and inconceivable that a world without a creator exists, so you have accepted that there is a creator (who created the world) without a creator, but it is also illogical and inconceivable, a “creator without a creator” (also for some reason a little scary, what is this thing that stuns the brain), and time without a beginning (as well)
So where did you come from, Deborah, a creator without a creator, a blushing Teffi, from a world without a creator? Is it only because of our teacher Sherlock? So you feel that a world without a creator is less logical than a creator without a creator and time without a beginning?
In D.A., due to the intensity of the lack of comprehension and logic in a Creator without a Creator and time without a beginning, I have difficulty understanding talk about such a Creator as being subject to logic, after all, this is something that breaks logic and perception at the most stupid level possible, so I don't understand those who say that he can make a square triangle (nonsense) but also those who confidently say that he can't, like, a little modesty, in front of a Creator that you believe is without a Creator, this is the peak of the ability that the brain is capable of thinking before exploding, so honestly is it possible to understand something in the capabilities of such a frightening thing? (The same goes for discussing it if you know the future and the choice).
Isn't the most correct answer for someone who believes in a Creator like the above, it is simply to say after all the raising of possibilities in all sorts of discussions of this and that, that all of this is only in our minds, but let's not forget that we are talking about a Creator who is not at all perceived by our minds?
I'm asking you specifically after I've gone through many who claim to answer such questions, but they're all tainted with justifying the Creator or justifying perceptions they grew up with, or fearing some unpleasant conclusion, while you see that you're not afraid of slaughtering sacred cows, and also of slaughtering the Holy Creator, if that's how it turned out for you (I've been slaughtered and squeezed for a long time now)
You ask why I think the Creator exists? I dedicated a book to this, the first one published. There are excellent arguments in favor of the matter, and that's it.
Apparently, the Rabbis on the celebration of the “Vish perished without justice” and the solution is “Vish perished without justice” such as a man who killed his friend”,
A teacher who believes that the Creator does not know the future, is this without justice? The Creator knew this in advance and certainly included it in the law?
I don't see any evidence here. What's the connection? Even if he knows the future, he still doesn't intervene or prevent the murder.
That's right, I didn't talk about that at all.
A- I said it wouldn't be called ”not a trial”, otherwise you'd have to assume something crazy, even though the Creator knew the future that someone would murder Reuven at the age of 30, he still decreed that he would live 80 years, if the Creator foresaw this in advance and due to a certain constraint he couldn't prevent it, then what is his decree that he would live 80 years, it's not reasonable, it makes sense that after seeing it this way, anyway “mishna”, more accurately, he doesn't predetermine him 80 years, his rationale in this section seemed,
But it's clear that when he gives a life sentence on Reuven how long he will live, he perfects it by considering in his sentence everything he sees, and according to this he gives him a trial, meaning now these 30 years will be better as compensation, or compensation in another world and so on, .
This saying, "And there is one who perishes without trial," doesn't mean anything, at least not anything reasonable.