On Divine Involvement Within the Framework of Nature and on Faith Declarations in General (Column 691)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
I have devoted quite a few columns in the past to the matter of divine involvement in the world. Among other things, I argued there for two claims: 1) A conceptual claim—there cannot be divine involvement within the framework of the laws of nature. Any divine involvement, by definition, deviates from those laws. 2) A scientific-empirical claim—there is no ongoing divine involvement in the world (not even as a deviation from the laws of nature), perhaps aside from sporadic cases. This past Shabbat (Parashat Bo) I spoke in the synagogue about the first claim in light of the Ramban’s well-known comments on the parashah, and I arrived at several new points I wished to present here.
“That we should believe concerning all our words and occurrences that they are all miracles; there is no [such thing as] nature or the customary order of the world.”
At the end of Parashat Bo there is a verse commanding the mitzvah of tefillin. In his commentary there, the Ramban elaborates on why the Torah finds it important to recount the miracles God performed in Egypt and in general, and why it is important that we remember them (among other ways, by donning tefillin):
“And now I shall tell you a general principle regarding the rationale for many mitzvot. From the time idolatry existed in the world, from the days of Enosh, opinions began to become confused regarding faith: some denied the basic principle and said that the world is primordial; they denied the Lord and said, ‘It is not He.’ Some denied His particular knowledge and said, ‘How does God know? Is there knowledge in the Most High?’ (Psalms 73:11). Some admitted His knowledge but denied providence, rendering man like the fish of the sea, over whom God does not watch and with whom there is neither punishment nor reward; they would say, ‘The Lord has abandoned the earth.’ And when God desires, regarding a community or an individual, and performs for them a sign that changes the customary order of the world and its nature, all of these opinions are nullified, for the wondrous sign indicates that the world has a God who created it, who knows and watches and is able. And when that sign was decreed beforehand by the mouth of a prophet, it further confirms the truth of prophecy—that God speaks to man and reveals His secret to His servants the prophets—and with this the entire Torah is upheld.”
The miracles (visible to all) teach us that the Holy One, blessed be He, is the Master who created the world and its laws, and the proof is that He can also deviate from those laws. At the end of his comments there, the Ramban broadens the discussion to concealed miracles and writes:
“And from the great and publicized miracles a person comes to acknowledge the concealed miracles, which are the foundation of the entire Torah—that a person has no share in the Torah of Moses our teacher until he believes that in all our words and occurrences, all are miracles: there is no nature and the customary order of the world, whether among the public or the individual; rather, if one performs the commandments, his reward will cause him to prosper, and if he transgresses them, his punishment will cut him off. All is by the decree of the Most High, as I have already mentioned (Genesis 17:1, and above 6:2). And the concealed miracles will be publicized in matters of the community, as will come in the Torah’s promises regarding the blessings and the curses, as Scripture says (Deuteronomy 29:23–24): ‘And all the nations shall say, Why has the Lord done thus to this land? … And they shall say, Because they forsook the covenant of the Lord, the God of their fathers,’ such that the matter will be publicized to all the nations that it is from the Lord in their punishment. And concerning the fulfillment [of the commandments], it is said, ‘And all the peoples of the earth shall see that the name of the Lord is called upon you, and they shall fear you.’ I shall further explain this with God’s help (Leviticus 26:11).”
In essence, according to him the core of faith is in concealed miracles. The visible miracles merely remind us that all our occurrences are nothing but miracles in which there is no nature and no customary order—that is, that everything that happens to us depends solely on performing the commandments and not on nature. The Ramban emphasizes that his words concern everything that happens to every individual or to the public at large (“whether in public or in private”); all of this results solely from their spiritual state and not from the laws of nature. He sees this as such a clear and fundamental principle that he declares that anyone who does not believe this has no share in the Torah of Moses our teacher.
As I have mentioned more than once, to my shame I have no share in this belief, and although perhaps I therefore have no share in the Torah of “Moses ben Nachman,” I hope I still have a share in the Torah of Moses (ben Amram) our teacher. Here I wish to clarify the picture and its ramifications, and why it seems utterly implausible to me. In the end I will also arrive, from here, at a prevalent phenomenon of claims I shall call “faith declarations.”
Involvement Within the Framework of Nature
On its face, the Ramban here writes that there are no laws of nature in the world at all. Everything proceeds miraculously. It is hard to believe that this is truly his intent. The Ramban was a physician who treated the ill, and in various places in his commentaries it is clear that he was a rational person who accepted the existence of natural laws. If we are precise in his language, he speaks about “our occurrences,” namely what happens to human beings, and not necessarily about everything that happens in the world. So perhaps he indeed accepts natural law, but specifically regarding human beings he claims that what happens to them is a result of their deeds. But that too is implausible, for as a physician he treated human beings’ illnesses. If his intent were that all human occurrences are miracles and not dependent on nature at all, he ought to have sent his patients to pray or repent instead of prescribing medications or medical procedures. In other words, his function as a physician would have been superfluous; he could have done the same as a rabbi or a good friend.
If indeed the Ramban accepts the existence of natural laws, it raises the possibility that perhaps he intends to identify the actions of nature with the action of God. This claim can be read in two different ways:
- One could say that nature operates regularly according to its laws, but the One who operates them is God. That is, there is in fact no force of gravity, only a law of gravity. The law of gravity describes the manner in which God operates, and the One who brings about the phenomena is God and not natural forces (such as the force of gravity). Still, God acts according to fixed rules, and the laws of nature describe them. This picture seems to assume a correlation between our physiological state and our spiritual state: what is supposed to occur given our spiritual state in fact occurs via the laws of physiology as well.
- Alternatively, one could say that God created the laws of nature and through them He Himself acts. That is, everything takes place exactly as the atheist conceives it (attraction between masses is caused by gravitational force), except that the laws (and the forces) themselves are the work of God’s hands; therefore it is considered that He is the One who brings about all that happens in our world.
It is very hard to read either of these formulations into his wording. As for the second formulation, the Ramban says there is no nature—not merely that God created natural law. But even the first is implausible. The first formulation also says that there is nature and that everything happens in a natural and regular way—only that God is the One operating it. That is, my recovery is a function of physiology, not of my prayers or good and bad deeds. Under this picture, one can predict whether I will recover or not, even if the ultimate mover is God. The Ramban explicitly writes that events in the world do not occur with natural regularity and are not dependent on the natural state but on our commandments and deeds. The description I suggested says that the laws of nature indeed describe what happens to us, but that is not what he wrote. Even if we say that the laws of nature themselves take into account our spiritual state, this is still implausible. The natural laws we know do not depend on spiritual state; if so, it follows that at least they are incorrect. Is it reasonable that he really thought this?
It therefore seems that the Ramban’s intention was to say that the world indeed operates according to the laws of nature, and the healing of the sick is also governed by those laws. But he claims that this does not contradict the belief that everything that happens to us is in God’s hands according to our deeds and spiritual level. The assumption here is that God can be involved in the world even within the framework of the laws of nature, without violating them. In essence, he claims that not all divine involvement is a miracle, for there are “gaps” within natural law that allow for divine involvement. Thus, what happens to human beings does not contradict natural law. Within the possibilities that nature presents, God succeeds in inserting His policy, healing those who are worthy of healing and the reverse.
Why This Cannot Be Correct
In column 280 I explained why this cannot be correct. I shall present it here in two ways (the distinction between them will be important later).
The first formulation is that there is no freedom or “gaps” within natural law. The laws are deterministic (I will get to quantum theory below), meaning they determine that given a particular natural state (assuming it includes all relevant data, even if unknown to us) the outcome must be X and nothing else. Therefore, if God decides to change that and do Y, He has deviated from the laws of nature. The laws of nature establish causal relations in which the cause is at least a sufficient condition for the effect. This means that given a particular (complete) state of affairs—namely, all the data in the world are fixed—the outcome according to the laws of nature is unique and necessary. Any change in that outcome constitutes a deviation from natural law.
I emphasize that I do not mean to claim that God cannot do this. Certainly He can, for He created the laws of nature and He can suspend them or deviate from them (“the mouth that forbade is the mouth that permits”). I am only claiming that if He chooses to intervene, that necessarily deviates from natural law—that is, it is a miracle. My claim is that there is no divine involvement within the laws of nature (claim 1 above), not that there is no involvement at all (claim 2 above, which I am not addressing here).
The second formulation is as follows. Suppose I am ill and pray to God to heal me, and He answers my prayer. If by nature I would have recovered anyway, then there is no divine involvement here; God simply let nature operate, and the “answer” to my prayer is meaningless. Conversely, if without the prayer I would not have recovered and only thanks to God’s intervention did I recover, then that intervention necessarily constitutes a deviation from natural law. Something occurred that was not supposed to occur according to the laws. Again: there is no situation in which both possibilities fit natural law.
To understand why this confuses people so much, we must consider the topic of the concealed miracle.
Between a Concealed Miracle and Involvement Within Nature
Think of a person who is ill with a disease from which we know the chance of recovery is 10%, while the rest die. Now I learn I have that disease, and I pray to God to heal me. He answers my prayer, intervenes, and heals me. Can we say that this is involvement within the framework of natural law? After all, 10% recover, so there is no deviation from natural law. These are statistical laws, so it seems that there really are “gaps” in nature, i.e., situations in which the very same circumstances can yield two different outcomes.
But at least according to the accepted scientific view, this is a mistake. The statistics of recovery concern all people who suffer from that disease. Among them, 10% recover and 90% die. But for any given individual patient, the outcome is deterministic. If we knew all the relevant medical information about him precisely, and we knew all the theoretical medical information about such a disease, we could predict with certainty whether he would recover or die. Our inability to do so does not stem from the fact that truly, from the same state two different results can come forth; rather, it stems from our lack of information (both about the patient and about the theoretical information concerning the disease). Therefore some people will recover and some will not (for each person the result follows deterministically from his condition).
According to the information we have today, curing disease is part of the natural sciences and is entirely deterministic. The use of probability and statistics here stems from a lack of information—that is, it is an epistemic and not an ontic matter. Just as our use of probability to describe the outcome of a coin toss or a die roll does not mean that there is something truly random there. The coin toss or die roll is entirely deterministic, and our resort to probability is only due to partial information and computational difficulty, not because there is a real “gap” in nature itself. It is epistemic rather than ontic (see the series of columns 322–327). It is important to understand that our lack of information changes nothing regarding whether nature is deterministic. Nature itself is deterministic; we simply do not know the laws or the data in full.
Let us return to our patient. Suppose he was supposed to die of this illness (he belongs to those 90% who die), and God intervened and saved him. Now he becomes part of those 10% who survive this disease. Did a miracle occur here? Was there a deviation from natural law? Most certainly. If that person was supposed to die (even though we cannot know that), then God intervened and altered the natural course and healed him. Therefore, here too we are dealing with involvement that deviates from natural law. Of course, if that person was supposed to be among the 10% who survive, then God did not intervene at all. We will naturally never know which of the two possibilities is correct: whether God intervened and deviated from natural law, or whether the person recovered naturally. In any case, if God intervened, it is a miracle that deviates from nature. It is, however, a concealed miracle, since we have no way to perceive that a miracle occurred. Even so, that miracle deviates from natural law; it is simply done without our knowing it.
It is important to understand that “involvement within nature” and “concealed miracle” are not synonymous expressions. A concealed miracle is an act that deviates from nature, but we are unable to notice it (an epistemic rather than an ontic issue). Involvement within the framework of nature is divine involvement that does not deviate from natural law at all (which, as we saw, is impossible). A concealed miracle is certainly an option God can employ, but involvement within the laws of nature is not. A conceptual analysis shows that any involvement on His part constitutes a deviation.
Back to the Ramban
What, then, did the Ramban mean? One might say that his intention is that God intervenes in what happens to us, but as we have seen, in doing so He necessarily deviates from natural law. This is of course possible in itself, and perhaps this is what the Ramban means when he says that all our occurrences are miracles. But this possibility exists in his words only if, in his view, this happens from time to time and not always. Otherwise there is no nature at all and everything is miraculous. Yet it seems clear that he did not mean that, for he writes that “all our words and occurrences are all miracles; there is no nature and the customary order of the world, whether in private or in public.” That is, he claims this about every single thing that happens to each of us. Could it be that everything that happens to us is not the result of natural law but of divine involvement? If that were the case, there would be no physiology regarding human beings. Acetaminophen would reduce fever only for those who “deserve” it; antibiotics would work only for those whose spiritual level warrants healing; surgeries would fail for wicked people, and so forth. A physician (of human beings—excluding veterinarians), like the Ramban himself, would have no role, and his knowledge would have no significance.
In short, I have no share in the Torah of Moses ben Nachman, for his words are not acceptable to reason and contradict the scientific knowledge we possess. I hope nonetheless to have a share in the Torah of Moses ben Amram. I take comfort that I am in good company, for as I showed in column 659 (and many others), it appears that even the Ra’ah (and indeed the Gemara itself) has no share in the Torah of Moses (ben Nachman), for in Chagigah 5a he explains the Gemara’s statement “there are those who perish without justice” as referring to cases in which a person kills his fellow. That is, in his view (and in the Gemara itself), a person can die without deserving to die—so too, certainly, become ill or be injured. True, the Ra’ah there discusses an act that is the choice of another person (Reuven who murders Shimon), and perhaps natural death, in his view, is not possible without justice (so it seems from his words, since he explains that “there are those who perish without justice” as in the case of one who kills his fellow—apparently coming to exclude natural death). Still, this smells like some distance from the Torah of Moses ben Nachman. And of course there is also “everything is in the hands of Heaven except for cold and heat.” But even if there were no sources supporting my view, it would not change anything. Scientific and logical analysis compel the conclusion that the Ramban is mistaken here.
Gaps in Nature
It seems the Ramban assumed that there really are gaps in nature. In other words, in his view, given a particular state of affairs two different outcomes are possible; therefore divine involvement does not contradict the existence of natural law. Moreover, it seems that, in his view, this is essentially the case with regard to human beings, and thus he can say that all our occurrences are nothing but miracles and contain no nature whatsoever. As for the role of a physician according to him—I truly do not know how to answer. But this appears to be the assumption in his words here.
We saw a similar assumption in column 280 regarding the issue of praying about the past. We saw there that the distinction between a fetus under forty days (for whose change of sex one may pray) and one older than that (for whose change of sex one may not pray) does not fit the assumption that it is forbidden to pray for an open miracle but permissible to pray for a concealed miracle, since changing the sex of a hundred-day-old fetus is also a concealed miracle (in a world without ultrasound). Why, then, is it forbidden to pray for that? Moreover, in such a case there is, in fact, no miracle at all, for God could intervene and perform gender-affirming surgery in the mother’s womb. This is a medical act that, in principle, a human surgeon either already can do or will be able to do shortly; therefore one can view this as a request for intervention that is not a miracle at all. I explained there that the distinction between the ages of the fetus must be based on the assumption that before forty days the fetus’s sex is an open question, and therefore even if God intervenes and changes the sex, this is done within the laws of nature. Not so in later stages, when the fetus’s sex has already been determined; then the request is for a miracle—i.e., a deviation from natural law—and that is forbidden. The conclusion that emerges is that it is forbidden to pray for a miracle, whether concealed or open. It is permitted to pray only regarding open situations (“gaps” in natural law) in which divine involvement is not a miracle at all. Behold, then, that in the past the Sages thought that natural law is not deterministic, and there could be cases of divine involvement that are not miracles—that is, that are not deviations from natural law. So, it seems, the Ramban also assumed.
A Note About Our Time
In that column I noted that today we know this is not the case. The sex of the fetus is fixed in the very first days of pregnancy (and in my estimation, there is nothing truly random in the differentiation process; there is simply a mechanism we do not yet fully understand). This, of course, raises a serious question regarding the conclusions that would follow from that sugya. One possibility is that we must reject the Talmud’s mistaken factual assumption and understand that there are no gaps in nature; therefore today we are forbidden to pray for anything at all (not even for changing the sex of a one-week-old fetus), for any involvement is a deviation from natural law, that is, a miracle. A second possibility is to reject the halachic ruling that forbids praying and requesting a miracle, for every request is a request for a miracle; therefore it would be permissible to pray for a change in the fetus’s sex at any age (at least when ultrasound is absent).
The view of sages in those generations is certainly understandable. Scientific knowledge at the time was not what ours is, so they assumed that nature is not deterministic. They were not angels; contrary to popular belief, they had no scientific knowledge beyond what existed in their days. What is harder to accept is that later sages keep repeating this nonsense of involvement within the laws of nature, as though their scientific knowledge remained stuck in the Middle Ages. Their commitment to the views of the early sages (and fear that they might not have a share in the Torah of Moses) forces them to hold either to logically absurd claims (that divine involvement could occur within deterministic natural law) or to scientifically absurd claims (that natural law is not deterministic). This is a conservatism deserving of censure. Critical thinking must also be applied to basic beliefs. As we learned: “Plato is beloved and Socrates is beloved, but truth is most beloved of all” (see column 215 and many more).
Further Puzzles
In the last sentence I hinted that my critique of the Ramban’s position rests on two pillars: science, which posits that the laws are deterministic; and logic, which says there is no divine involvement that can take place within deterministic laws. Logic is not up for debate. It turns out that the weak point that must be examined is the scientific one: are the laws of nature really deterministic? The Ramban—like several Talmudic sugyot—apparently thought so, but our scientific knowledge today says otherwise.
This can be questioned on at least two planes:
- How confident can we be that natural law is truly deterministic? Take recovery from disease as an example, as discussed above. The fact is that patients sometimes do recover from almost every disease. That is, in this area outcomes are not dictated deterministically by the current state. In standard scientific thinking, this is attributed to lack of information (theoretical or about the particular patient) and is considered merely an epistemic problem; but who says that’s right? Perhaps there is truly an ontic gap here and not merely an epistemic one? The reductionism of medicine and the life sciences to chemistry and physics is a standard scientific assumption, but there is no necessity to adopt it. Let me already note here that the Ramban’s claim is that all our occurrences are miracles—meaning there are no natural laws regarding human beings. This is an extremely far-reaching conjecture, and I think the facts quite clearly say otherwise.
- Quantum theory (in the standard interpretation) teaches us that there are non-deterministic processes in nature. Given one state, two different outcomes are possible, and quantum theory even gives us the probability for each of them. If so, there is room to argue that in some situations God can take either of two courses, neither of which would deviate from natural law.
I shall begin with the second question.
Quantum Theory and Its Significance for Our Topic
In principle, quantum theory should not play a role in the discussion, since it deals with very small scales and very low temperatures. The events that happen to us are at large scales and very high temperatures; therefore quantum effects are not supposed to be present. Certainly, to claim that every single one of our events is governed by quantum theory is far-fetched. Beyond that, quantum theory specifies a distribution over the possible outcomes. Divine involvement in those outcomes would still violate natural law; it would change the distribution (assuming that when God heals me, He does not leave someone else—who should have recovered—ill in my place. If that were so, it is hard to accept that it is permissible to pray such a prayer). In effect, it can be said that God changed the laws of quantum theory, which are the relevant natural laws for our case: quantum theory dictates a particular distribution, and God imposed a different one.
This answers the quantum-based question. Still, the question remains regarding the determinism of natural law itself. We raised the possibility that this assumption may be mistaken even if science adopts it. Assumptions are assumptions; they carry no necessity. If so, perhaps divine involvement within the framework of natural law is indeed possible. The answer I shall give to this question will also address the difficulty posed by quantum theory. Before that, a methodological note.
A Methodological Note
Suppose we could find a possible explanation for the Ramban’s view—whether this requires saying that our scientific picture is wrong or some other explanation. Perhaps it would be a forced explanation, perhaps even a spacious one. My question is entirely different: why assume from the outset that there must be an explanation? Why look for one? Why is there a difficulty here that compels us to re-examine our scientific (and other) worldview and seek explanations? Does the Ramban have alternative sources of information regarding science or thought that we can assume are not mistaken? On the face of it, the simple avenue is that the Ramban erred because he drew on ancient and outdated scientific knowledge—and thus there is no need to be troubled by this question.
I claim that the very search for some explanation of his words—even if we find one—is based on the assumption that they are supposed to be compatible with the modern scientific picture (or, more precisely, with the truth). This assumption itself is misguided; therefore the search as a whole seems unnecessary and based on a methodological error. I nonetheless engage in it here mainly because many people do not share my methodological understanding, and I wish to clarify it.
What Would Have Happened Without the Involvement?
Above I presented two formulations of the claim against involvement within the framework of natural law. One was based on the determinism of those laws; the other examined what would have happened without divine intervention. Now I wish to argue that the second formulation topples the Ramban’s words even if we assume that natural law is not deterministic (whether due to quantum theory or simply because the existing scientific conclusion regarding determinism is mistaken).
Let us assume, for the sake of discussion, that in a given patient with a given disease two outcomes are indeed possible—i.e., in his state natural law does not dictate whether he will recover or not. The distribution of 10% recovery versus 90% death reflects ontic indeterminacy in reality itself and not merely partial knowledge (epistemic uncertainty). At first glance, in such a case divine involvement does not contradict natural law.
Even so, one can raise an argument similar to what I raised above regarding quantum theory. If we assume that the distribution of the chances of recovery is X (only this time it is not due to our ignorance but to indeterminacy in reality itself—note that this is also the accepted view in quantum theory), God’s involvement changes that distribution. A statistical law is still a law; changing the distribution is a change in natural law. From another angle: the distribution of chances of recovery itself stems from some structure of the world. The structure is not deterministic but statistical, so it does not dictate one outcome but a certain distribution; still, divine involvement changes that distribution. After the involvement, the situation is that the only possible outcome is recovery, with probability 1. If so, here too we have a change in natural law. This is very similar to what we saw above regarding the implications of quantum theory for our discussion.
Here I wish to argue something even more far-reaching. Suppose, for the sake of discussion, that there is no natural law here at all, not even a statistical law—that is, we assume that nature says nothing about the chance of recovery and anything can happen. The matter is truly open, with not even an average distribution. Still, it is clear that if we waited and God did not intervene, something would in fact have happened. What would have happened? One of two possible outcomes: either the patient would have recovered, or he would not have. If we assume he would have recovered, then there is no need for divine intervention. If he would not have recovered, then God’s intervention changed what would have occurred in the natural course. Is that not a deviation from nature (even if not from natural law)? Nature itself would have gone in direction A, and God caused it to go in direction B. My claim here is that even if there are gaps in nature and its laws are not deterministic—and even if there are no laws at all, neither deterministic nor statistical—divine involvement still constitutes a deviation from the natural course.
This is, of course, a matter of definition. One can claim that indeed there is a deviation from the natural course that would have happened, but not a deviation from natural law (for there are no laws). Thus, for example, one may claim that it is permissible to pray for a deviation from the natural course so long as there is no deviation from natural law (deterministic or statistical). If there is a law, then perhaps God wants the world to operate that way; therefore His involvement that violates those laws is problematic (and perhaps we are forbidden to pray that it occur). But when there is no law at all, this is not truly a deviation from nature, even though it is still a different course than what would have happened without the involvement.
To my mind, this too is involvement. In any case, nothing in this offers a way to reconcile the Ramban’s words. To claim that, we would have to assert that there are no natural laws—even statistical ones—regarding human beings. Physiology would not exist as a scientific discipline. As noted, even the Ramban himself (who was a physician) likely did not think so.
Faith Declarations and Making It Up As We Go
Bottom line: not only is the Ramban incorrect, I do not even have a possible explanation of what he could have meant. If we adopt the final model above—that regarding human beings there are no laws, neither deterministic nor statistical—then his words imply there is no physiology at all. It is not reasonable that he meant to say that.
But beyond the Ramban’s intent, we can wonder what those who quote him with such enthusiasm to this day mean. Before asking whether the Ramban is correct, and even before asking whether they themselves believe it, the first question is: what are they even saying? Do they themselves understand what they are saying? Do they mean there is no physiology? That there are statistical laws and that involvement does not deviate from them? That there are deterministic laws and divine involvement does not deviate from them? None of these options is plausible; some are not even possible. I think none of the speakers truly knows which of these he intends with such statements.
In my impression, people make such declarations only because they exude the aroma of deep piety, and that alone suffices to wave around these sentences—even if they are absurd, and even if they have no meaning at all. Well, we can always call it “learning Chassidut,” and then we are exempt from giving any coherent meaning to the sentences under discussion. The feeling of depth covers the substantive vacuum. One can leap into the “empty space” and grasp the twelfth hair of the dikna kadisha (“holy beard”), and thereby resolve all the difficulties of Dawkins and the rest of the skeptics (see, for example, my lecture here).
Think about claims concerning bitachon (trust in God) and hishtadlut (human effort), about divine providence over His world, claims that everything is found in the Torah, claims about the special virtue of Israel, claims about tzimtzum not to be taken literally, claims that anyone killed for his Judaism is a saint (what is sometimes called “Kiddushei Ta’ut” [sanctifications by mistake]; see column 215), and many more of the sort. Many such claims merited chapters in my book Ein Adam Shalit BaRuach, and they are all declarations without real basis. Some of them have no coherent substantive meaning whatsoever—but that does not prevent many believers from asserting them emphatically as though they descended directly from Sinai, simply because they exude the aroma of piety. I call these “faith declarations,” namely, claims that have no logic and/or source, and in many cases even the proponent does not truly believe them; but through them he broadcasts his unqualified faith in our holy Torah, and therefore they are exempt from critical thought (see column 52 on the difference between derash and pilpul and on the rule “one does not object to a derash”).
Example: The Sabbatical-Year Promises
A wonderful example of this kind of absurd discourse I found in a pleasant podcast someone sent me a few days ago, in Yoav Rabinovich’s series “The Rhinoceros.” I highly recommend listening. Note that in this example we are dealing with a principle that actually has a clear source, and yet I still regard such claims as “faith declarations.”
His topic is the proposal by Shas ministers to establish a training fund for farmers who observe the Sabbatical year (as far as I know, the law has meanwhile passed a preliminary reading). Yoav Rabinovich presents explanations from Shas MKs for the bill. They explain, quite nicely, that it is incumbent upon us to ease the burden on those righteous people who let their fields lie fallow in the Sabbatical year. Rabinovich notes there that they also have the options of heter mechirah or otzar beit din, but they chose to be righteous; if so, why not at the public’s expense?! After all, the state treasury currently has a surplus. There hasn’t been a war in the past year and a half (a fact—none of their neighbors in Bnei Brak was harmed; what are they even talking about?!), no regions of the country have been devastated (the holy city of Bnei Brak stands intact, thanks to the promise of the righteous R. Chaim Kanievsky), and of course the Haredi sector’s contribution to the GDP covers any deficit that could arise even if there had been a war (thankfully there was not), so there is no problem with funding sources. But the morality of this band of robbers is well-known and is not our topic here. Here is the point relevant to us.
Immediately afterward, Yoav Rabinovich brings a series of fervent quotes from Shas MKs explaining that observing the Sabbatical year actually benefits the economy. How so? Because we have a promise and a blessing of double and triple yield for those who observe Shemitah. And, of course, there are innumerable stories (who has not heard of miraculous rescues from locusts and the like) that prove this clearly and absolutely. True, some halachic authorities have already written that nowadays Shemitah is rabbinic, and such a divine promise does not apply; but the honorable MKs apparently have not heard of this—and besides, the facts prove them right. Fortunate are we who have merited.
But then Rabinovich rightly points out that these statements do not quite fit the earlier explanations for the bill. If we are truly promised by the Almighty Himself triple yield to those who let their fields lie fallow, turning them into wealthy men, why does such a farmer need a publicly funded training fund to help with his difficulties? He is not in distress—on the contrary, thanks to Shemitah his situation will only improve. Perhaps their intent is only a loan until the enormous yield arrives (which, as we know, is already supposed to sprout in the sixth year)?
It seems many of us would pass over such statements and the like without batting an eye. We have become so accustomed to these “faith declarations” that, as noted, their aroma of piety obviates any examination of content (recall, “one does not object to a derash”). If the one saying it is a righteous man, then surely he is right, no? He is above logic and reason, and one can demand human effort while simultaneously preaching trust in God—and many more wondrous contradictions along the way.
On the margins, I wonder what this collection of liars (and robbers) actually believes. In my estimation none of them truly believes this promise, and none would stake a single coin of his own on the divine promise in whose name he swears. Well, he prefers to stake our coins on it. Perhaps that itself is the fulfillment of the divine promise, like the well-known story of Moshke and the squire. Likewise, I think those who quote the Ramban with such enthusiasm about all our occurrences being miraculous do not believe it and would not bet a worn-out coin on it. But piety requires declaring these holy declarations and not examining them.
Not for nothing are scientific experiments on the effectiveness of prayer conducted only by Christians. They actually believe their beliefs; we merely declare “faith declarations” without truly believing them. On the contrary, anyone who would actually act upon them would be labeled even by the religious as “messianic” and “delusional.” But the declarations we must maintain.
Oops, how did I forget that it is forbidden to test God—except with tithes (“Test Me now in this,” see Ta’anit 9a)?! If so, fear not—theories like these are unfalsifiable. Oh, there’s more: God is above logic—did you forget?! By the way, has anyone here ever checked the matter of tithing? That one we are indeed permitted to test! I assume not. And what do you think about long life for those who honor parents and send away the mother bird? It would be interesting to see what would come out of (forbidden) tests of these as well—and even more interesting why none of the fervent faith-declarers conducts them in an orderly, systematic, statistically significant way (aside from grandma tales about miracles and wonders for those who tithe and honor parents). Why don’t the Shas MKs conduct a proper survey of the state of the Shemitah observers (before receiving the unnecessary money from the training fund)? That way they could bring facts and persuade us (of what? To make or not make the fund?).
If you ask me, even regarding promises that have a source—such as “Test Me now in this” (at least a source in Hazal) or long life for those who honor parents and send away the mother bird, and the wealth in store for those who let their fields lie fallow in the seventh year—no one here truly believes. It’s good for agenda-driven radio interviews, but not a single one of our coins would we invest in it…
So why is it written? And what do the verses mean? There are several possibilities, and the question is an excellent one. But a question is no substitute for factual examination, and if someone does not believe this, then he does not believe it—even if it is written, even if he is wrong, and even if he declares it with boundless enthusiasm.
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By the way, the Ramban himself, in his commentary on Job,
Chapter 10, verse 7, writes that providence is only for the righteous and that most of the world is condemned to accidents and lives according to nature and all the Torah commands to go to war.
There are many contradictions in his writings on this matter, and so is the Rambam.
Where are there contradictions in the Rambam on this matter?
The Ramban's words are full of contradictions from place to place.
The conceptual claim is correct according to the information we have *today* about nature (and that's just the opinion of those who believe that quantum mechanics has no effect on the macro.).
Your empirical claim is as reasoned as any average secular person who asks me on the street, "So where do you see your God?" “ – Beyond "I don't see it", I haven't seen any innovative argument from you that God doesn't intervene.
Let me ask a question –
Suppose I win the lottery a million times in a row (not by cheating), which is far beyond a statistical miracle, but on the other hand something that can completely be explained within the framework of the laws of nature.
Was there a miracle here, i.e. divine intervention, or not?
Before we enter into this fascinating discussion, it is worth clarifying: I did not claim in this column that there is no divine involvement. There are columns devoted to this and your question is discussed there tirelessly. Here I only claimed that if there is involvement, it necessarily deviates from the natural course.
Due to the lack of time, I don't know if I can search for and read the above columns.
Therefore, I would appreciate it if you could summarize – How can one show that God does not interfere with the statistics of things that happen within the framework of the laws of nature?
So the lottery example is not good, because such things do not happen in practice. But on the other hand, there are a lot of testimonies from people about natural events that cannot be explained only as a “statistical miracle”. Yes, although it is sometimes difficult to define a sample and distribution for the reported events, it sounds amazing (assuming that these people are not making up their stories).
By the way, one of these things could perhaps be the events of – 7.10, or as a military commentator defined it “it is as if all the stars aligned precisely in favor of Hamas and precisely against Israel”. For example, the fact that Hamas broke through from dozens of locations into the country, and in all of them (so I read) they had the upper hand (at least at the beginning of the war). Also the company in the General Staff who held two conversations that night, and did not see fit to raise even the most basic level of alertness in the outposts.
Or the fact that there was a major Hamas training exercise just three-four days before 7.10, and they still did not see fit to reinforce forces in the sector, the Air Force failed, the Navy failed. . .
So no supernatural things were observed on 7.10 (there are no such arguments either), but the coincidences are simply something amazing.
With all due respect to your lack of time, due to my lack of time I will refer you back to those columns.
The Ramban himself, in the introduction to Job and in the sermon on the Torah of Hashem Temima, refers to some of these precedents.
In his introduction to Job, he writes: “…For if we say in nature that He is the sustainer of all, that neither man nor beast dies because of a right or a duty, and then we believe that this God of the veil has not yet come to his day in nature, behold, the hand of the Lord performed a miracle, and changed nature by veiling the sea before His people and drowning our enemies in it, there is no difference between the one and the other, only from the hidden to the known. And if we insist on saying that the person who eats the food that you mentioned will not die, as you said, by changing nature, only if God invites him to the foods that give rise to illness, or if he falls in war and perishes as is customary, then his fortune changes through his sin for the worse, or through his merit for the better, and nature is not the leader. And if God changes His mind through his sin to eat the bad foods that he would not have eaten if he had not sinned, it is easier than if the outcome of the good food changes for the worse for him, and it is written that if he is stricken with plague, his day will come and he will die, or if he falls in war and perishes, and the plague is a change of nature to a plague, and the war will kill him by the decree of the Most High. And the matter of “I will give you your rains in their season.”
The Ramban himself explains that there cannot be any advantages in nature, and therefore in order to say that there is reward and punishment, he must say that there is a (hidden) miracle. And it is precisely on this point that he attacks the Ramban in the discourse on the pure Torah of God.
In my opinion, the difficulty you present is simply because he exaggerated his language. To those who do not believe in providence and deny miracles, then he says that man has no part… that all our words and events are all miracles, but he does not mean ‘all’ but ‘many’ things that happen to us are miracles because otherwise there would be no reward and punishment. And ’everything that happens around you has the hand of God involved in it. (I feel like I may not have phrased it well enough here).
This is the conclusion I came to after a long study of the Ramban”at the end of Parashat Ba, the introduction to Job, and the sermon on the pure Torah of God, and other places in his writings. I would love to hear your opinion.
Maybe. I didn't check all the sources and wrote that there were apparent contradictions in his words.
It is unfair that you embark on a campaign of attack on the Ramban without seeing and comparing his words in the Makkah. If you write that there is no point in even trying to reconcile his words because in the past they thought that there are intervals in nature and there is no reason why the Ramban would not think so, and the Ramban in the Makkah clearly writes that there are no intervals in nature, then there is certainly a point in reconciling (and certainly not dismissing it out of hand).
Where did you see a campaign of attack on the Ramban? What I am writing assumes a reading comprehension above the third grade.
Incidentally, it is also not true that the Ramban quoted above says that there are no intervals in nature. On the contrary, he brings the claim that there is involvement in the framework of nature and does not argue against it that it is impossible because there are no intervals. He only claims that it would have been better for God to change the nature of the foods and not to summon others. This is an example of a contradiction.
All human affairs. All human affairs.
And perhaps this is what the Ramban meant. The Ramban's cell
Thanks. Fixed.
The rabbi asked why money 💸 is needed from the state for farmers who strike once every 7 years because maybe this is the year of the bed.
After all, there is a promise that they will have 💸?
This is a good question about the money that all kinds of seventh-day organizations collect from the public that promise and I commanded my blessing to the donors
Why does I commanded my blessing not go straight to the farmers and they will not have to collect?
Someone told me that this is a promise to the farmers
But not to the businessmen who organize them who organize the seven-day funds for their own benefit and the public must finance them and the businessmen have no promise of and I commanded my blessing.
What does the rabbi think about this?
Why do we need businessmen? God doesn't know how to give His blessing without their kind help?
The fund is intended for farmers, not businessmen.
Can't we say that both are integrated together, that is, that God intervenes in the world and determines according to considerations of reward and punishment and other considerations, and one of His significant and important considerations is not to deviate from clear natural laws (except in rare cases such as the parting of the Red Sea), but to deviate from natural laws that are not clear, but even in this, the intervention (usually) is in disguise so that it does not contradict statistics?
Therefore, the Ramban was a physician and it is important to make efforts in any field, because otherwise God probably will not help him, because one of the important considerations of God is that He does not deviate from the laws He has established when it requires intervention and a change from clear natural laws, and He also does not deviate from statistics, and therefore prayer can be useful at least in deviating from natural laws that are not clear, because there is a large margin even within the statistics (if a few more people live, it is not Will it break the statistics?
Anything can be said. I don't know what are the obvious and not obvious laws of nature.
Obvious means the laws of nature are clear to everyone, such as the sea not splitting in two. Unobvious means laws of nature that are not clear to us, such as whether a certain patient will die.
Why is this not a reasonable explanation in the Ramban (and in general to understand the concept of vigilance and prayer)?
There are few clear examples. You are simply talking about a hidden miracle. In the column I already showed why this is not possible.
What is the real explanation for promises that are written right in the Torah, such as tithing and sending the nest - honoring parents? Things that once existed and no longer happen today?
To be sure - I agree with the Rabbi that even if we haven't found an answer yet, it doesn't prevent him from drawing conclusions from reality itself, and we certainly won't work ourselves up because of it.
But in any case - what does the Rabbi think the explanation is?
I don't know. Maybe longevity is for a world that is entirely long, as Chazal sometimes demands. Maybe it was different in the past. Maybe there is a different interpretation. Regarding Shmita, they have already said that the seventh of the rabbis is not blessed. The tithe is a statement of Chazal, not of the Torah, and this could simply be a mistake.
And yet it smacks of a certain distance from the Torah of Moshe ben Nachman. In my opinion, you should correct ’Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman’.
When you say Torah of Moses, you don't add Torah of our Master Moses. It's a play on words.
This is not the reason, but because Moshe is greater than his name.
If I won the lottery twice – the second time thanks to the blessing of the Rebbe”
Did that change the distribution?
Since the distribution represents an infinite number of events – then there is room for any outcome –
without the distribution changing.
And the naive question: After all, we learned from the philosopher Kant that the human mind cannot perceive a lack of causality –
And here quantum theory assumes pure randomness – something that happens for no reason at all – but
in a distribution. So if “gravity” forces every object to fall to the ground – what forces the electron
to the distribution?
Yes. I explained this in the column. Nothing to do with the number of events.
The question of Kant was complicated by many, both from the theory of relativity and from quantum mechanics. The distribution is a result of the quantum structure of the universe. I wrote several times that this is a different kind of causality (not direct).
What is another kind of causality? My mind, probably like Kant's,
understands only a cause that preceded the event.
And how would you discover in reality that the distribution has changed?
If quantum theory states that there is a probability of P for a certain event
within a certain time, then P is determined based on repeated experiments, a small change here and there
wouldn't change the determination?
The question of the teacher – I couldn't understand from the article why the distribution changed.
Causality here is not an event that causes another event, but the structure of the world that dictates a form of behavior. This is a different kind of causal relationship. The random quantum event has no physical cause in the conventional sense, since it is random. But it does have an indirect cause, which is that our world is quantum in nature and therefore such events can occur in it.
I will not reveal. Why do you think I should reveal? It is a hidden miracle.
I did not understand the question of ignorance, mostly in my ignorance.
You determine what the distribution is based on experience - if you get the bell shape, you determine that it is a normal distribution and also its mean and variance. But this mean and variance will not change even if you change an infinite number of values. If you cannot detect that the distribution has changed, you cannot claim that it has changed.
Regarding praying for a miracle and the sex of the fetus, I think it might be possible to explain it differently.
If we assume that there are 2 criteria for which it is forbidden to pray: A. Something that is visible to the eye (according to the Gemara in Taanit 8), and therefore it would be permissible to pray as long as I do not know the sex of the fetus (even up to 9 months).
B. An event that has occurred. It is true that our nature is deterministic, but the timeline plays an important part in it. Even if there is an event whose outcome is determined (for example, when I throw an apple, the speed at which it will hit the ground is determined at the moment of the throw), the result has not yet occurred. The prohibition to pray for the sex of the fetus actually reveals to us that there is an additional criterion for ”hidden from the eye”, and this is “an event that has not yet occurred”. It seems according to Chazal that after forty days the “child is created”, and its sex is also created. Even though 40 days before the creation of the child (perhaps at the union of the sperm and the egg?) its gender and other things have already been determined (according to the Gemara in Sota 2).
In conclusion, prayer is permitted and not defined as vain only if it is about an event that has not yet happened (even though it has been determined) and is something that is hidden from view. Therefore, if we perform a DNA test on a 10-day-old fetus and find out what its gender is, a prayer to change its gender will be in vain.
This explanation leaves the laws of Chazal regarding vain prayer relevant also to a deterministic view of nature.
I don't see a difference. Then the reason for gender was already created and it was canceled. After all, you can pray for a gender change even after it was created like a surgeon. It's also not clear why there would be a prohibition on praying for a miracle only when it has already been created.
Why is there no difference? Of course, in both there is divine intervention in nature, it must be, you proved it in your column. The difference is in the timeline. It is permissible to pray about an event that has not yet happened and not about one that has already occurred, even though both were predetermined.
Why would it be forbidden? I have some hypotheses of my own, but it doesn't really matter. Is it clear to you why one should not pray about something that is visible to the eye? Again, I have hypotheses for this too, and it also seems puzzling, but here it seems that you do not disagree that this is the halakhic rule…
I see no logic in such a prohibition, any more than the prohibition of praying for something that begins with the letter M and onwards. There are plenty of artificial ad hoc explanations. Furthermore, I also don't think that this distinction between what has come true and what has not come true is correct. The fetus has not yet been born, and therefore it is possible to perform a miracle (or sex change surgery) to be born male even though it is already female in the womb. Has this already happened or not? How is this different from praying for a fetus less than forty days old that already has the characteristics that will develop into a female and become male?
The prohibition of praying for a miracle is logical. If God wants the world to be governed by laws, we should not pray to Him to change His policies. That is not what He wants. The prohibition of praying for a miracle is obvious, even though it is somewhat understandable to me. It is too blatant interference (and perhaps takes away my rights in the world). But why is it forbidden to pray for something that has already happened? Where did the sages derive this strange principle from? And all of this also assumes that something can be defined as having already happened, which I do not agree with.
Regarding the Ramban's statement (although I also apparently have no part in the teachings of Moshe ben Nachman and I also see no need to reconcile every philosophical position of this or that medieval scholar):
It can be said that the Ramban believed that there are gaps in nature, and God directs nature according to the righteousness of each person to the appropriate statistics. The reason for practicing medicine is a kind of "intercession". A kind of religious ritual that has no causal connection to human medicine. By the same token, instead of giving a patient antibiotics, one could sacrifice a chicken for him. But this is part of the work of God in order to be healed, in addition to charity and repentance, etc.
I assume you will dismiss the idea as soon as you read the concept of “intercession”, which in most discourses about providence and knowledge of God is completely meaningless. But here I think it makes sense.
I don't think this is a reasonable explanation, but since we're talking about the Ramban's view, it's better to put it in an explanation that can be coherent. Well, the principle of grace and such…
You can always explain that there is an obligation to perform a casual ceremony and that's it. You can also say that we eat to strive and not to survive. What am I supposed to do with such an explanation? Voodoo ceremonies are obligatory.
Not that I think you care about my opinion, but I would love for you to respond to me.
I do believe and think that the Ramban is right, if I understand him correctly.
First, a dictionary:
"Overt miracle" – an event that goes against the laws of nature, so that we see that God acted in the world.
"Hidden miracle" – an event that happens in a way that is consistent with the laws of nature, but it happened through divine intervention.
I understand that the Ramban's intention is that the events that happen to us are directed by God and have a spiritual reason.
It is true that a natural chain of events caused them to happen, but there was divine intervention for them to happen.
God can certainly intervene in nature all the time and perform hidden miracles, but in a way that is not obvious to humans that there is a violation of the laws of nature.
The easiest way to realize this is in the statistical world, where as long as there is a chance that something else will happen, then it is possible that even though it is not supposed to happen in physics, God intervenes and causes it to happen, but it is not apparent to us and therefore it is hidden.
This can also be expressed in coincidences for which God is responsible, creating desires in different people (not deciding what they will decide) such as Hamas members or Babylonians, rare timing of a chain of events so that a person manages to get out of a sinking ship, etc. etc.
I think this for several reasons,
1. The Bible is full of the message that although it seems that nature just happened that way, it is God's intention (Joseph and his brothers, the destruction of the Temple, the Book of Esther, etc.).
2. All people have an intuition that not everything is understood, and there is a lot of "luck", as far as I am concerned, this is where God is, in statistics and in luck.
3. Logic, the very understanding that God can break nature, so I have no reason to say that He doesn't break it all the time.
PS
In my understanding, "false prayer" is a prayer about a situation that requires breaking the laws of nature in a way that is obvious to us.
Why do you think your opinion is not interesting? Arguments interest me, and I really don't care who makes them.
But you write as if you didn't read the column. Is a hidden miracle compatible with the laws of nature? How does that happen? Why is it still considered a miracle?
Involvement in people's choices has been raised here many times as a possibility, but such involvement is also not within the framework of nature. In nature we have choice. I see no advantage in assuming such involvement over involvement that violates the laws of nature. Just as we see that there are laws of nature, we see that people have a choice. And I am certainly not willing to accept such involvement in all our cases (and after all, I am willing to accept sporadic involvement in nature as well).
Side note: Regarding Shemitah, already in the Sages (Sanhedrin 12) they did not go through the Shemitah year so as not to create a problem for the economy. I don't think there is a contradiction here. As you once wrote in another context, these promises are one element that is weighed with others, and not something exclusive, and in any case, one does not count on a miracle.
No problem. This also happens with every scientific law, as I wrote in the article on validity. But still the question of whether this law is true in itself is one, and the question I asked is whether people believe in it. I also asked why they don't test it statistically (when the other effects are neutralized, as with every scientific law). And in our case, those Shas people explained that it would be good for the economy. If they don't trust the miracle, then they wouldn't declare that we will benefit from it, and I would also expect them not to harvest their fields (there is a treasury in the Bible and the rest is for sale).
And by the way, in Shemita, we do trust in the miracle. There is a promise in the Torah. It is a fact that we are required to harvest fields.
Since in Parashat Vayra and in the Book of Job the Ramban writes completely opposite things, it is inevitable that his intention is different from what it seems at first glance, and therefore the problem lies in the terminological confusion of the terms “nature” and “miracle”, because there are two interpretations of these terms:
“Nature”
1. A blind (non-rational) force that governs the world.
2. An intelligent force that governs the world in a (perceived as) fixed format.
“Miracles” -
1. The conduct of the world by directing an intelligent force to a specific goal, in accordance with human behavior.
2. Conduct that (perceived as) deviates from the fixed format.
When the Ramban in Parashat Ba speaks of “nature” he means Nature 1, while in Boira and Ayyub he means Nature 2. “Hidden miracle” is Miracle 1, while “Revealed miracle” is Miracle 2.
That is: in Parashat Ba he says that the Torah denies the conduct of the world according to Nature (1) of a blind force, but the truth is that it is conducted according to an intelligent force in a fixed format (Nature 2) and directed to specific goals according to the behavior of humans (Miracles 1). Therefore, there is no essential difference between “Miracles 1″ Miracle 2, since both are based on the management of the world by the intelligent force, and the only difference is in frequency: Miracle 1 happens all the time, while Miracle 2 only rarely.
In Parashat Va'ara he explains that Nature 2 and Miracle 1 do not contradict each other because He often arranges the result in a way that is not understood as deviating from the fixed format. In Parashat Va'ara and Ayyub he notes that the difference between the conduct of Nature 2 and Miracle 1 depends on the level of the individual and the nation in general (it should be added: also in different periods in history).
To the best of my knowledge, the reality that is visible to us and the science known to us does not contradict any of the above assumptions; What is more, the more we know about the fixed pattern in which the world operates, the fewer the possibilities of “miracle 1” are, since it is more common for us to perceive an exception to the pattern, and therefore you are right that today there are far fewer miracles of this type, but it seems to me that there is still a lot of room for them (more than you claim) since we are still far from perfect information.
P.S. In Parashat Vayyar “The knowledge of God, which is His providence in the lower world, is to keep the rules, and even humans are placed in it for cases until the time of their command comes”. And in Job 30:7: “And he who is far from God in his thoughts and deeds, and even if he does not commit death for his sin which he has sinned, will be sent away and abandoned to cases… And because most of the world is from this middle sect, the Torah commanded the rescue of those who fight… Because we should behave in the way of nature and chance.
Following column 689, I think you have laid out all the tools to solve the situation using quantum theory, and especially the possibility of a superposition state. (And I apologize in advance if I missed or misunderstood).
If we think about a situation in which a sick person with the distribution of 10% to be cured versus 90% to die, as long as there is no certainty about the state of the disease's progression (the measurement), instead of seeing the probability as something future that someday there will be a coin toss and his fate will be determined, we can see the situation as a superposition state (being in ontic doubt about the state of his illness) in which the person lives *both realities simultaneously*, he contains the two realities in which he is both terminal and recovered. This, until a measurement (collecting physical indicators of the disease to fish) causes the collapse of one of the realities.
If you look at God's involvement as a player who plays by the laws of nature that he himself has established, but with one significant difference: He is able to measure any given superposition situation and cause the collapse of the other possibilities - then He can cause each of the possibilities to materialize in reality without affecting the specific distribution percentages related to the disease. Therefore, it is possible that prayer helps cause the collapse of one of the possibilities by asking God to measure (and thereby decide) which is the true reality among the many realities in the superposition.
And regarding the effect on statistics - you yourself have written several times that if one side of the coin comes up in a number of tosses, there is no indication here about the other coins in the world. And in a metaphorical sense - According to the Ramban, providence is valid only in Israel, and Israel's relationship with the nations of the world is statistically null, so even if there is divine involvement in the people of Israel, there will not necessarily be a statistically significant effect that can be measured.
And if I return to the Ramban in this view, we can try to interpret him according to your second interpretation. That God created the laws of nature and through them He Himself acts. However, the laws of the world include the possibility of superposition - that is, they can behave in more than one way - and until there is an exact measurement, the one who can play with the switches and decide in which state each law behaves is God, and this is in accordance with the state of fulfillment of the commandments of the people of Israel.
(One can imagine that the moment humanity began to measure and pay attention to the laws of nature, we caused the collapse of the world's ability to perform visible miracles by drastically changing the laws of nature, and therefore we have not seen evidence of such)
As a side note, I am not a physicist and do not understand the theory in depth, and therefore I do not understand why this is absurd, but it is possible that today we are aware of a significant number of forces operating in the world and are able to measure them, and therefore the forces behave in a <1,0] manner, in contrast to particle behavior where we no longer understand what causes, for example, electrons to be in a dual state in the first place, and therefore they can still be in a permanent state of superposition.
I explained why quantum theory is not useful here. I didn't understand what you were suggesting beyond that. It seems to me that you don't understand my arguments about statistics (distribution) and quantum.
and
And perhaps the Ramban means that everything a person does is not according to the laws of nature because they cannot determine what he will do? Then “all our circumstances” are not the nature of a person’s intention, nor is it what happens to him.
That is not his intention. He says that everything is determined by commandments and transgressions. That is, he is talking about what happens to him.
Is there a place for the blessing of Baruch, who performed a miracle for me, etc., if there is no divine involvement? Or is it simply an admission to God that the person was saved even though statistically he was not supposed to be saved and he is one of the one percent who are saved?
When I dealt with divine intervention in the world, I also explained the implications regarding requests, confessions, and praise.
Although “Blessed is He who performed a miracle for me” raises a problem also because of the wording (because it was probably a statistic and not a miracle). There I would really not bless except for a clear miracle (the parting of the sea).
To say that people aren't willing to put 10 bucks on "I'm a nerd about this too" is quite ironic. In fact, people put a tenth of their money on it because they truly and sincerely trust that promise.
Absolutely not. They tithe because they believe there is a mitzvah or interest in it. These promises are not the motivation, and none of them would have given a single penny on this promise. How many of them would have bet a significant amount on what the results of a study would be to see whether they actually get rich from tithing or not? In my opinion, none.
I have the impression that this is definitely the motivation. Many disregard much more important commandments but keep tithes. Research is not really possible, after all, every person is in a completely different situation in life than their peers. It will always be possible to argue that if that person had not contributed tithes, they would have lost more and if that person had contributed they would have gained more…
This is the type of escape that is common among believers. For this there are statistics and big numbers and regression techniques. This escape itself teaches about the believer's attitude towards these statements.
Allow me to respond to these:
My basic premise:
The laws of physics, as we know them, are nothing more than an expression of our limited knowledge. We define the “laws of nature” based on what we can measure and describe, but we have no certainty that this is a complete description of reality. The universe is rich and complex far beyond what we are able to investigate, and there is no reason to think that everything that is inaccessible to us does not exist or does not work.
Some would say that if God were to operate within the laws of nature, we would recognize His intervention. Since we do not see any blatant violations of the laws of physics, the conclusion is that He does not intervene. After all, if He did intervene, it would be evident in the results of the measurements.
But this argument assumes that God, with His infinite power, is unable to act in a way that would not be revealed to the human eye. Why think that the Creator, who created the laws of physics, does not know how to use them better than we do? After all, we ourselves know how to perform subtle manipulations within a complex system without breaking its rules – much less the Creator, who knows all levels of the system, from the largest to the smallest particle.
This can be likened to a casino owner who knows how to control the results of a game without changing the statistical average. This is not an ordinary casino, but an owner who can control each of the parameters. He is able to make a particular player win without this changing the general distribution of the game. So is the Creator: He can choose, from the possibilities that already exist within the framework of the laws of nature, the outcome that will lead to his goal – without violating the measured probability.
Anyone who claims that the laws of physics cannot be changed is in fact saying that human knowledge – which is limited and partial – is the one that dictates reality, and not the will of God. This is a problematic approach, since it places human understanding above the sovereignty of the Creator. Is it possible to say that the world “behaves” according to what humans have defined as laws, and the Creator is prevented from intervening because that is how we see reality? This is an absurd claim.
It can be argued that God Himself has determined that nature will operate according to certain laws, and He does not change them – for if He had, this would have been revealed.
But this is an artificial assumption: Who said that the Creator has completely limited Himself? How can this be determined? In fact, there is no reason to assume that God does not intervene – unless someone wants to believe in it in advance. Anyone who believes that God does not act in the world simply holds a different belief – a belief that denies the power of God. But why prefer such an interpretation? Why believe in the Creator’s self-limitation, when one can believe in His ability to act within the laws of nature? If there are two possible interpretations – one in which God acts and one in which He is supposedly “limited” – why prefer the one that diminishes the Creator’s power?
Doesn’t it make more sense to assume that God, who created the laws of physics, knows how to act within them without us noticing? It is a fact that we too, in our human creativity, manage to act within natural frameworks and steer them as we wish. It is even easier for the Creator to do this to a much greater extent.
The Creator can intervene in the world in a subtle way, within the framework of the laws of physics themselves, without this being considered an overt violation of the laws. Divine intervention is not an overt “miracle” that shatters what is familiar to us, but rather an action within the existing system.
One could argue: So, why don’t we see this intervention? If God is at work, we should be able to detect it in our measurements.
The answer is simple: Who said we could detect it? After all, there are clearly processes that occur in nature that we do not fully understand. Take genetic mutations, for example. Any change in DNA can cause a particular mutation, but we have no way of knowing why this particular mutation occurred and not another. If God wants to cause a pandemic, all he has to do is change a few letters in the DNA of a particular virus – and from the scientific point of view, it will look like a random process. There is no way to prove that there was no deliberate hand here.
So how can we claim that it is impossible? What is the source of absolute certainty that the Creator does not do this? There is no proof of this – only faith. This is an assumption without a scientific basis. On the contrary, it is always better to choose an interpretation that gives power to the Sovereign of the universe, rather than an interpretation that limits him.
In conclusion:
1. Assuming that the laws of physics are immutable is faith, not science. There is no scientific way to prove that the laws are exactly the same everywhere and at all times, and whoever determined that this lawfulness is complete, there may be laws that we simply do not recognize and may never recognize in our own limitations.
2. The belief that God does not intervene in the world assumes that human understanding dictates reality, rather than recognizing that the Creator acts as He wills.
3. Divine intervention can occur at levels that cannot be detected by direct measurement. Just as a clever casino owner can skew results without changing the average winnings, and just as mutations occur in a way that cannot be determined with certainty what motivated them.
Therefore, anyone who claims that God does not intervene because “otherwise we would see it” is essentially imposing limitations on the Creator that he himself did not set. This is a belief for everything, and it is problematic – because if you have to choose a belief, it is better to choose one that recognizes the greatness of the Creator and not one that diminishes His power.
There is a fairly new field of quantum biology, you can read about it on Wikipedia. According to this school of thought, there is a not insignificant influence of quantum effects in biology, because sometimes the activity of a gene/virus/protein/cell is also affected by the state of a single atom, and there are situations where such a quantum effect affects the entire body.
Perhaps in the probability of healing there are not only initial conditions but also quantum effects in which God can intervene without violating the laws of nature
I know the matter and I think I commented on it. But I explained that quantum theory, even if relevant, does not help engagement within the framework of nature.
I would be happy if you refer to an article on quantum biology. According to what you explained in the article (and in the past) quantum theory is not relevant to what happens in the ”macro world” of many atoms at high temperatures, but it turns out that it is relevant to biological processes.
Regarding the fact that statistically the quantum distribution will be uniform – this does not affect the health status of an individual person when there is anyway a 10% probability that he will recover.
My point is that even given all the initial conditions it is impossible to predict in advance whether a specific person will recover due to quantum effects, so what is the “problem” of introducing God into quantum randomness?
I don't have an article on quantum biology. I also explained in a column here why quantum effects don't change the picture.
https://youtu.be/_qgSz1UmcBM?si=drFMMIIKida7hIHw
Shalom Rabbi,
Have you ever accompanied a wounded/dangerous patient on the verge of death during prolonged treatment/hospitalization?
Those who deal with such a situation realize that the number of open nodes or ”gaps” in the healing process is endless, at every step and at every given moment. From the strength of the body and mind! of the patient himself, to the exhausted nurse who changed or did not change gloves at night when she moved between the last two beds on shift. From the perception and diagnostic abilities, diligence or laziness, greatness or smallness of the treating professor, to the accuracy of the medical measuring instruments that led to one decision or another.
If you stand, for example, in front of a young and strong man, a soldier with a head injury from the war, you will realize that from the point of view of medicine and science, the human brain is still a huge, dark and unknown gap. No one really has any idea how an injured brain will behave, and where things will flow.
After such a long experience of accompaniment, the very question of whether the Ramban is right or not, at least managed to make me laugh healthily. Who can really know? What do we know or not know about the laws of nature and possible gaps?
(The human soul, its character, its immunity - which are fixed within its brain cells, are they part of the laws of nature or not? And after all, their influence on the healing process can be critical even according to science and medicine, and after all, they can change at any given moment).
The vast majority of the revealed, and although science can draw laws of reality based on the knowledge it has, we will never be able to know if gaps or tiny fractions of gaps exist, where and to what extent.
To summarize my overly long words, I of course cannot deny your perception with evidence, but, the example of the patient, and the prayers for him, feels to me to be the most irrelevant example to use.
Hello Rabbi.
I have been reading your articles for a long time, and usually really enjoy them, Yeshak.
The truth is that this time it felt a bit like a “fall” to me.
Writing about the Ramban’s method on this subject without referring to other sources of his own in his many books, felt a bit like shooting an arrow and then drawing a target around it…
With blessings
If another source in the Ramban's many books seems significant to you, perhaps you should bring it up?
If you thought there was a study here on the Ramban's method, you were wrong. I am referring to his words here in their own right, as they are quoted quite a bit. There are major contradictions in his words on this matter, and I have already written about this. The Ramban's method itself does not really interest me, as I am not concerned with thought and certainly not with the study of the thought of the Rishonim.
A question for the rabbi, I wanted to ask following the article the rabbi showed regarding natural spaces and hidden miracles that are actually a miracle and intervention,
And the rabbi also brought an example from the quantum realm, where there is a dimension of randomness
But what about human thoughts or more accurately the dimension of randomness and free choice there?
It seems that in this realm one can find similarity in accepting a new idea into a space in nature?
Did I think of 4 ideas or another new idea, etc.
And then introduce the divine intervention in the ideas without changing the laws of nature and then in fact a space is created for us here?
This question has come up here many times before. In short, I don't see what you gain from it. So instead of involvement in the laws of nature, you will get involvement in human choice (which is also part of nature). God can do both, but apparently He doesn't want to, certainly not on an ongoing basis.
Hey, the difference is that in nature there is no space, and in human ideas there is free choice, and the mere idea of putting an idea, without forcing the person to choose it, but only the idea, can have an effect.
Do you think there is no difference?
Because in fact the great innovation is that there is no space in nature, and here in this field of thoughts, etc. it seems that there is?
No, and I explained why. In the supplement, planting an idea that would not have arisen otherwise is an intervention in nature and not just in selection.
Perhaps it can be explained that the Ramban's intention is the opposite: prayers and private care are part of nature in the sense that those who pray statistically improve their condition. That is, for him it is like a law of nature, that those who are closer to Him, He cares for them more.
Another thing. I have read studies on prayers that also included Jews and not necessarily Christians or Buddhists. Here is one for example
https://www.ima.org.il/MedicineSite/Article.aspx?NewspaperArticleId=1708
1. The Cursed Water – Its physical effect, for illness and death or for health and fertility, depends on the woman's actions.
God created for us a miraculous loophole in the laws of nature, and commanded us to use it in the legal system. Why assume that beyond that He does not intervene?
2. Following the bitter waters, a command was given to generations by Moses (ben Amram): “If you will diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God and do what is right in His sight, and give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will not put any of the diseases that I have put on Egypt on this day, for I am the Lord who heals you’ (this week's portion in Shelah). So why say no?
–
In the opening sentences I wrote that this is not the topic of the column, and I have spelled it out well in the past. Seek divine involvement in the world.
Thanks for the wonderful article.
Two comments:
1. For the sake of argument, the dispute between the Ramban and the Maimonides (although the Rabbi has already noted that there are contradictions in their statements) is semantic. According to the Maimonides, everything is inherent in nature, miracles are just timing (which here too must be discussed whether it is deterministic, it seems that the Maimonides writes this in the Avot regarding things that were created in the name of God between the suns). According to the Ramban, there is no concept of determinism and inherent nature at all, because nothing is predetermined, although God leads the world in a systematic way, and therefore any deviation from this is an obvious miracle and we do not need to fear deviations in everyday life (therefore the sun will rise in the morning and paracetamol will help with a headache).
2. Regarding the understanding that divine intervention is a contradiction to nature and determinism, perhaps we can explain to the ear that what is not known is not necessarily considered to have happened. Like the philosophical question if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, did it make a sound? Or can what we do not recognize even exist? That is, even though the world is deterministic, we cannot know what will happen because we lack knowledge, this knowledge is considered non-existent.
And a question for the rabbi, if possible, is it worth praying for the healing of the sick in general?
1. I raised this possibility in the Ramban and rejected it (if everything is conducted systematically, then the result does not depend on the commandments and transgressions).
2. I am not concerned with what is considered and what is not. The question is what happens, not what is considered.
It is possible when there is no natural way out, and I would not count on it.
1. True, but it leaves room for change and also explains why the Ramban as a physician did not prefer to pray.
2. The question is whether it is a question of what is considered, or what exists.
Thank you very much
Regarding the words of the Ramban, the Ramban himself states, “As I have already mentioned,” and his intention is to be explicit in Genesis 35:1 and Exodus 6:2 regarding the meaning of the name S-D-Y. In these two places, his words are much more moderate and understandable. And since he himself refers to these places, it is likely that his words here should be interpreted according to what he wrote there, even though his language is a bit harsh.
And this is its language:
[1] “And the reason for mentioning this name now is that in it the hidden miracles will be performed for the righteous to save them from the death of their souls and to keep them alive in famine and to redeem them in war from the hand of the sword, like all the miracles performed for Abraham and the fathers and all that comes in the Torah in the parshah of my laws and in the parshah and it will come with blessings and curses, which are all miracles, because it is not from nature that the rains will come in their time for our servant God, nor will the heavens be like iron when we sow in the seventh year, and so are all the appointments in the Torah, but they are all miracles, and in all of them the system of the zodiac will prevail, but there is no change in them from the custom of the world of conventions performed by Moses our Lord in the ten plagues and the splitting of the sea and the manna and the well and their scarcity, which are miracles that change nature in publicity, and they will be performed in the special name that He told him”
(Genesis 35:1)
[2] “And the meaning of the scripture is that it appeared to the fathers in this name that he would conquer the heavenly hosts and perform great miracles with them, from which the custom of the world would not be abolished, in famine he would redeem them from death and in war from the hands of the sword, and to give them wealth and honor and every good thing, and they are like all the appointments in the Torah in blessings and curses, because no good will come upon a person as a reward for a mitzvah or evil as a punishment for a transgression only in the act of a miracle, and if a person is left to his nature or his luck, his deeds will not add anything to him or detract from him. But the reward and punishment of all the Torah in this world are all miracles and they are hidden, it will be considered by those who see them that it is the custom of the world, and they are in man a punishment and reward in truth. And for this reason, the Torah is dated in the purposes of this world, and does not explain the purposes of the soul in the world of souls, because these are signs that are contrary to the outcome, and the existence of the soul and its adherence to God is a fitting thing in its outcome, that it return to the God who gave it. (Exodus 6:2)
A- With your permission, if you would kindly answer the question of Omria Halevi Weil above from 4/2 I don't know why you didn't address it, it sounds logical,
especially when we see how sweet the power of choice is to Him that He only created the world for that reason,
and that is why He is limited from knowing the future,
so again I would be happy if you would address his words above
B- In one of the places on the site you answered someone who asked about the cruelty of the Creator in the Holocaust that He did not prevent, and you answered him, like these things, that the Creator has long been not involved in His world,
so I wanted to understand what you mean by not being involved?
Is it that He does not know what is happening? Because if He does, then what is the answer to His response to that man about the Holocaust, about that himself he asked why He does not intervene since He knows.
Or do you mean that He also does not know? So this is more than what we talked about choice and knowing that He only does not know the future, so He also does not know what is happening? It doesn't seem like that's what you mean, even if so, how will he give reward and punishment? Only at death will a person suddenly know everything?
Thank you
I've explained it dozens of times. Look for the problem of evil.
A- Again, I would be happy if you answered A.
B- I read what you wrote about the problem of evil and understood that if you want a system of laws that will provide everything that the current system provides but without the bad results, you need to prove that such a system of laws exists.
But that's not what I asked, I didn't ask about the problem of evil, the one I asked about the Holocaust because you didn't answer him as above, but you answered him that it was because he stopped interfering a long time ago.
So let's leave the Holocaust and the problem of evil (perhaps you accidentally answered him that instead of the usual answer that there is no other system of laws, etc., which I quoted above).
I ask what you mean by not being involved?
Do you mean that he also doesn't know? So it's more than what we talked about choice and knowing that he only doesn't know the future, so he also doesn't know what is happening? It doesn't seem like that's what you mean, even if so, how will he give reward and punishment? Only at death did a person suddenly know everything?
He doesn't know what was chosen. He does know what happens deterministically. And by the way, even if he did know, it doesn't interfere with reward and punishment in any way.
A-?- “And I beg you not….”, it will be important to you as if I begged as Minyan and I beg you + 1 (as mentioned in the Midrash that if one more person had prayed, it would have been answered), and do not send me away empty-handed.
In what is meant deterministically
And I did not say that if he knew, it would interfere with reward and punishment
But on the contrary, I ask in order to give reward and punishment in grammar and precision
He is indeed supposed to be involved in the world for everything that happens, at least in knowledge, in order to know about the choice according to what conditions and trials, etc.’ it was. ?
I've already answered everything. I don't have time to spoil it by repeating it over and over again. He does know everything that's happening, but not what will happen. I've completely exhausted myself.
Sorry to interfere in this interesting debate
but I'm also interested
(and it seems to me that my knowledge is more interested in the beginning)
Why don't you really answer
To Omria Halevi Weil from 04/02/2025 at 09:10
And so he said above
My basic premise:
The laws of physics, as we know them, are nothing more than an expression of our limited knowledge. We define the “laws of nature” based on what we manage to measure and describe, but we have no certainty that this is a complete description of reality. The universe is rich and complex far beyond what we are able to investigate, and there is no reason to think that everything that is not accessible to us does not exist or does not work.
Some would say that if God were to act within the framework of the laws of nature, we would recognize His intervention. Since we do not see any glaring violations of the laws of physics, the conclusion is that He does not intervene. If He had intervened, this would have been evident in the results of the measurements.
But this claim assumes that God, with His infinite power, is unable to act in a way that would not be detected by the human eye. Why think that the Creator, who created the laws of physics, does not know how to use them better than we do? After all, we ourselves know how to perform subtle manipulations within a complex system without breaking its rules – much less the Creator, who knows all the levels of the system, from the largest to the smallest particle.
We can liken this to a casino owner who knows how to control the results of a game without changing the statistical average. This is not an ordinary casino, but an owner who can control each of the parameters. He is able to make a particular player win without this changing the general distribution of the game. So is the Creator: He can choose, from the possibilities that already exist within the framework of the laws of nature, the outcome that will lead to his goal – without violating the measured probability.
Those who claim that the laws of physics are immutable are essentially saying that human knowledge – which is limited and partial – dictates reality, and not the will of God. This is a problematic approach, as it places human understanding above the sovereignty of the Creator. Is it possible to say that the world “behaves” according to what humans have defined as laws, and the Creator is prevented from intervening because that is how we see reality? This is an absurd claim.
It can be argued that God Himself has determined that nature will operate according to certain laws, and He does not change them – for if He did, it would be revealed.
But this is an artificial assumption: Who said that the Creator has limited Himself completely? How can this be determined? In fact, there is no reason to assume that God does not intervene – unless someone wants to believe it in advance. Anyone who believes that God does not act in the world simply holds a different belief – a belief that denies God’s power. But why prefer such an interpretation? Why believe in the Creator’s self-limitation, when one can believe in His ability to act within the laws of nature? If there are two possible interpretations – one in which God acts and one in which He is supposedly “limited” – why prefer the one that diminishes the Creator’s power?
Doesn’t it make more sense to assume that God, who created the laws of physics, knows how to act within them without us noticing? It is a fact that we too, in our human creativity, manage to act within natural frameworks and navigate them as we wish. It is even easier for the Creator to do this to a much greater extent.
The Creator can intervene in the world in a subtle way, within the framework of the laws of physics themselves, without this being considered an overt violation of the laws. Divine intervention is not an obvious “miracle” that shatters what is familiar to us, but rather an action within the existing system.
One could argue: So why don’t we see this intervention? If God is at work, we should be able to detect it in our measurements.
The answer is simple: Who said we could detect it? After all, there are clearly processes that occur in nature that we don’t fully understand. Take genetic mutations, for example. Any change in DNA can cause a particular mutation, but we have no way of knowing why this particular mutation occurred and not another. If God wants to cause a pandemic, all he has to do is change a few letters in the DNA of a particular virus – and from a scientific perspective, it will look like a random process. There is no way to prove that there was no deliberate hand here.
So how can we claim that it is impossible? What is the source of absolute certainty that the Creator does not do this? There is no proof for this – only faith. This is an assumption without scientific basis. On the contrary, it is always better to choose an interpretation that gives power to the Sovereign of the Universe, rather than an interpretation that limits Him.
In conclusion:
1. Assuming that the laws of physics are unchangeable is a belief, not a science. There is no scientific way to prove that the laws exist in exactly the same way everywhere and at all times, and whoever determined that this lawfulness is complete, there may be laws that we simply do not know and may never know with our limitations.
2. The belief that God does not intervene in the world assumes that human understanding dictates reality, rather than recognizing that the Creator acts as He wills.
3. Divine intervention can occur at levels that cannot be detected by direct measurement. Just as a clever casino owner can skew results without changing the average winnings, and just as mutations occur in a way that cannot be determined with certainty what motivated them.
Therefore, anyone who claims that God does not intervene because “otherwise we would see it” is essentially imposing limitations on the Creator that He Himself did not set. This is a belief in every way, and it is problematic – because if one is to choose a belief, it is better to choose one that recognizes the greatness of the Creator rather than one that diminishes His power.
Forgive me
If you could answer my questions, I would be happy
Thank you
You wrote: “By the way, has anyone here ever looked into the tithe issue? It is indeed permissible to look into that! I assume not” PS. This is a tithe of crops, which no one currently sets aside for Levi, for your information. Applying it to tithes of money is worse than the blessing and I commanded my blessing at this time, which the rabbis omitted. (And even though the Rabbi Yod Remez 4:10 is similar to this. See also: Open a reply in the name of the Grieves and the Shal, and it is clear, as they say, that even if they understood that it does apply, the moment you check and see that it does not, their opinion is refuted (if you see that it does not), and you cannot draw a conclusion that the entire blessing does not exist.)
Furthermore: “And what is your opinion regarding the longevity of those who honor their parents and send nests? I wonder what would come out of these (forbidden) tests” PS. Really a gemara cap! Rabbi Yaakov already predicted in Kiddushin 32.
A bill and a receipt next to it in your words. It is clear that no one intends to check this, with or without the excuses. This is also quoted regarding the tithe of money, but none of the quoting parties will check. And the excuses that the rabbis do not have the blessing, or that it only exists if they give it to Levi, are part of the same approach to avoid any possibility of refutation. And regarding Rabbi Yaakov in Kiddushin there, this is part of the same process. Of course, we all rule like him, but only for the purpose of checking and not for the purpose of the quotations and promises. This is also the same matter.
And of course, everyone also rules because אברמה אמרדה אמרדה ספרדה אברמה אברד
Since you were asked twice why you don't address and respond to Weil's claims?
Regarding the matter itself, I will tell you a secret that after reading all of your previous posts on this subject, including the responses below of all kinds and types, I once happened to study the beginning of the Book of Job with the commentary of the Malbim, and I saw firsthand how he interprets Job's arguments with his friends on this very subject (did God leave the earth as you say, and as Job claims to his friends, or does He oversee with a private and active providence as the Ramban says, etc.) in a philosophical way and process that continues to expand throughout the book, as he dresses your arguments in Job's argument to his friends, and returns, God forbid, in the answers of his friends to Job, and so on. And if I thought that in his long posts and responses, we had outlined the possibilities, I was wrong and it turned out that you had burst into an open door, so that more or less after a few chapters he finishes dealing with In your claims (which, as stated, are made by Job, in response to the answers of his friends, but they continue to deepen the process, so that in every ping-pong between them it becomes more and more complex, and without shifting the subject, but on this very subject) you are invited to read there from the same place where your claims were answered and onward to areas that you have not yet reached, (you may also receive from this the benefit of “distortion of authority” (Bela”z) and in our language “if we are first as humans, we are like donkeys” which leads to humility that if a last as the Malbim covered all sides of the matter in a few verses and continues and continues, how much more so a first as the Ramban”) and in this way it continues to branch out and deepen, until God in His glory answers him (may God bless you) for all his philosophical claims, more precisely His mistakes (and it is interesting that the common camp of examples that God shows Job that He actually does watch over and act in our world in the past, present and future, are examples in nature that on the one hand a third grader would understand, and on the other hand even Mickey as a philosopher would admit to their experimentality and proof of God's providence in His world in detail, a lake that is constant and supposedly in nature, (and not as sporadic outbursts here and there as you like to say) Due to lack of space and time I will only give two examples from what God proves to Job (and Mickey)
One: When a doe has to give birth and her womb is narrow, a snake comes and bites her and her womb dilates and she gives birth, and the second: When a she-goat, in the pain of giving birth, throws her children off a high cliff, God, blessed be He, perfectly timed the eagle to receive them on its wings, and returns them to her (and we return and extend His mercy upon them) Ayyash and Tarva Satisfied
Regarding the studies you sent us to do, I will refer you to a study (real and serious, not cynical) that your friends from the Third Path, Dr. Eliezer Heun, did in cooperation with the Commissioner for Civil Service and more, on dozens of families, and claims that he even managed to introduce God's intervention in our days “to Excel” all in his new book “Sustenance from Heaven”
But there is something not right about your cynicism, since every time you are shown examples from our day that contradict this pretentious thesis, you either ignore it, or you deny it, or you are stupid, as you recently wrote to someone who asked you about the sensational miracle that God performed by Hinoka recently for the Abraha, which is equivalent to winning the lottery several times in a row, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emoUX2lvZMM
You solved it with language Lafa rolled her eyes, "I don't know!" Instead of sending us to fruitless studies and mocking, would you take up the gauntlet and answer seriously and analyze the case? Why doesn't this contradict your entire theory on this matter? And that's much easier to clarify (and even firsthand, especially since it's backed up by documents) than sending us to studies that you know in advance won't be done, not even by you.
Since you've read all the posts and comments of all kinds and genres, you've probably also seen this comment https://mikyab.net/posts/80003/#comment-71055
All the best, Donkey Rider (by the way, between you and me, don't write out loud so that Mickey doesn't get it, if you are smart and understand one thing from another, just as "Donkey Rider" is a pseudonym, so Hector, and he is actually a rider under a pseudonym and is expected of a smart person like you to at least understand it) In any case, you noticed there that he did not relate in his answer at all to the main topic for which we gathered here and there, which is the matter of "Job according to the interpretation of the Melbim" and forget it.
I hinted to you that Samuel the Seer knew where the donkeys that were lost to Saul were, but you, Samuel, testified that you read everything, including the responses of all kinds and species, and you came up with a new discovery, the interpretation of the Malbim in Job, and not only is there no discovery here in a matter that was lost because it already appeared there (and was of no use), but you also did not bring any real argument from his words as an answer to the arguments that were raised in those columns, you only distanced yourself from your testimony, as if there were new answers and interesting arguments there, like the act of Hector that he did there. After promising to bring two examples, you tried to bring one small thing from the Malbim's words about the deer and the eagle, and here is news. I tell you that this thing is found in the book called the Babylonian Talmud, which is very important, besides not being true in reality. Therefore, there was nothing to answer Hector there about regarding the reference to the Malbim's words, and your later words, all the more so. But I ride the donkey, that is, I use the lost thing that you supposedly found and I inform you that you have not gained anything with your words, you have only increased the matter to a high degree. And since you were not burned with lukewarm things, may you be burned with hot ones.
I thought you understood everything, but I was wrong. I hinted to you that Hector there is a pseudonym and the person who wrote the message there is Hector who rides Samuel (and not on donkeys). In any case, just as he did not respond there, so I did not respond here.
You do not expect me to copy the Book of Job here with the commentary of the Melbim. This is one step that is involved throughout the entire book. Look there and you will find peace.
I always like the instigator of those who write without minimal knowledge, "This is not true in reality." When they do not know reality and have not checked it out, just like that, "And He opened the mouth of the donkeys." As "A rider on a donkey from the mouth of a hero." (Just for your general intelligence, Rabbi Aaron Poifer, the rabbi of South Africa, casually tells that he once went out into the field with his students and they happened to see this phenomenon of the deer, but I deliberately do not want to fall into this trap of entering into even reliable testimonies of rabbis or National Geographic researchers, because there is no end to the matter and after I make an effort to prove it, Michai will come with all his genius and write to me, even if there is nothing more here than one story of a sporadic exception that I agreed to and nothing more. Therefore, I brought this only as two representative examples out of many others that God shows to Job (according to Michai) as something routine and natural and not as some one-time intervention. But in the meantime, you have caused by your intervention that now Michai will see himself as exempt from answering the response out of reliance on the donkey rider, and I have already written about this there (in my literary name Hector) “What is the birth of a woman among us”?
Hector the Kiln, how will you transcribe the entire Book of Job with the commentary of the Malbim here if your mouth answers you there that you only learned a quarter of the book and here that you only learned the beginning of the book? But you copy with closed eyes everything you find written and say, "My brother-in-law, I have seen light." And Mai David, a scholar of the Shul, in the tractate, we were asking him if he knew, but that he would jump up and sleep on his own, we have not heard. There is no doubt that you have great and amazing knowledge about the reality of doe and goat, and it is good that you have come back to insist that we know your nature. Instead of sending here and there and relying on realistic claims that you have no power to substantiate, I would advise you to try to make one theoretical claim on the merits of the matter. Go back to studying the Malbim and when you find a good theoretical claim there, write it here. I am assured by the grace of God that your answer will be found in the columns and in the responses that you read, or that you will receive one answer here for your sake, and you will know and be wise from the source of the matter.
Friends, it seems to me that this scholarly debate has been completely exhausted. You are welcome to clash among yourselves directly, but not here.
I will respond to the substance of the matter one last time and from now on, out of respect for the “horse and rider” I will give you the right to respond last and the readers will judge “who is smarter” Agam, it is now quite clear that you are the support of Michi, for whom we gathered, and we have already missed out due to the entry of a new woman among us. When I bother to write to you in all three responses, there is one long course from beginning to end that addresses Michi's claims and closes all the corners, and continues from there on to branch out and deepen, until God Himself comes when He gives Job the final finishing touch that makes Job admit his mistake. So expecting me to write a claim from there is a misspelling since it is one course that was built and you have to study the book from the beginning, at least to where Michi's claims reached, and just as you wouldn't expect me to let you write half a formula in nuclear physics that reconciles quantum theory with Einstein's theory of relativity, and if I finally brought all this within the framework of what is possible to bring on such a platform, two examples (out of many) that God Himself gave to Job Himself, which I defined as understandable on the one hand even to a third-grade child, And answer the demands of Micah the philosopher (although he is not close to Job, but still a philosopher) who prove God's involvement in nature, and what I received from that woman-born is “Don't confuse me with facts” It is interesting that Job did not think to say this wise argument in his argument with God when he slammed him for changing his (God's) son Job into an enemy?? Bring a blessing to your labor and be honored in the last response
I would like to present another angle that occurred to me. I will try to explain things at length and clearly, in an attempt to address the claims you made in the column itself:
First, the view you present is based on the simple and familiar methodological assumption of “Occum's razor”, according to which it is always better to choose the simplest explanation, one that requires fewer assumptions and fewer entities. Your main argument is that the simple and direct “natural” explanation – according to which there is currently no systematic divine intervention in nature – is the preferred explanation from a philosophical and scientific perspective, because it saves us from adding unnecessary assumptions about miracles and hidden divine actions.
But this assumption, for all its power and quality, is not a law of nature or an absolute truth, but only a rule of thumb. In scientific and historical reality, we often see that the seemingly “simple” explanation is not the correct one. Quantum theory, for example, is a theory that completely contradicts basic human intuition about the nature of the world. An electron being in two places at once, or the “ghostly action” of quantum entanglement from vast distances, seem almost impossible from an intuitive perspective. And yet, countless experiments show that this complex and “illogical” theory is actually correct, while the simpler and more intuitive classical explanation is clearly wrong.
The same is true of Einstein’s general theory of relativity. Compared to Newtonian mechanics, general relativity is more complicated and harder to understand. And yet, it has been verified in precise experiments over and over again, despite its mathematical and philosophical complexity. Simplicity is not an absolute value, but a methodological tool. Sometimes it is precisely a complex, or at least less intuitive, explanation that correctly fits the totality of observations and facts on the ground.
Now let's return to the subject of prayer and divine intervention: The explanation I propose is, although less “simple” methodologically, it is certainly possible and can fit with the reality we see around us, and even solve the problems you raised. The basic assumption is that the entire world belongs to the Creator, and He is the one who governs it absolutely. In this framework, He decided – as explicitly stated in the prophecy “And I will hide My face in that day” – to apply a policy of concealment. The meaning of this concealment of the face is that man will have no way of discovering Him by empirical means, since any empirical revelation would nullify the concealment of the face, that is, would cause God to reveal Himself openly and clearly. Such a revelation, if it occurs, will not be through a small deviation in statistical measurements, some Excel sheet, but through a complete and unambiguous revelation (as in the case of Mount Sinai).
It follows that any experiment we try to conduct to test the effect of prayer will be bound to fail. Why? Because the experiment is an attempt to discover God through statistics, while God has determined in advance that He will not be revealed in such a way. As the owner of the world, God is able to ensure that the sample of the experiment will be biased or unrepresentative. For example, if we choose a large sample of worshipers, God is able to ensure that the worshipers we put into the experiment will be precisely those whose prayers should not be answered (for hidden reasons, such as sins, various cosmic reasons, or considerations known only to Him). Or alternatively, He will ensure that the results will be misinterpreted. There is no technical way for a person to deal with such divine planning, since he is not a “spectator” but rather manages and shapes reality at any given moment. In other words, if there is a clear positive result that prayers are indeed answered statistically, at that moment the divine policy of concealing one's face will be broken and God will be clearly revealed to the world. And since this is exactly what God has decided not to happen, He will ensure that every empirical experiment will fail in advance.
Furthermore, as you mentioned, there is an explicit halakhic prohibition of “Thou shalt not test the Lord your God’, which prohibits subjecting the Lord to such an experimental test or empirical statistical examination. Whoever conducts such an experiment, apart from the methodological problem, violates a clear prohibition of the Torah. Such a person is expected to be punished, and the punishment can be expressed precisely in the fact that the results of his experiment will be distorted and invalid. Regarding tithes, the extension to the issue of charity in our generation – is not correct because the prophet is talking about the Temple and actual tithes. Also, we are talking about concealment of the face. Even concealment should not be in one field but in a certain majority – Can such an experiment really be planned in our generation?
Therefore, the argument according to which the burden of proof falls on those who believe in divine intervention (and therefore have an obligation to present empirical evidence) is not correct in this case. When it comes to a supreme being who has predetermined concealment of the face, and controls all the details of nature and every possible empirical result, there is no way to apply the usual rational-scientific principle of the “burden of proof” here. There is simply no empirical or statistical possibility of measuring, because it was determined in advance that there would be no such possibility. In fact, every trial of ineffective prayers confirms the claim of concealment just as much as it confirms the claim of the failure of prayer. And then we return to Occum's blunt razor.
Does this mean that there is no point in praying? On the contrary. Just as a person who has a just request from his boss – a request that he is not sure whether he deserves or not – will always prefer to ask for it rather than give up in advance, so the religious person continues to pray. It is a commandment, the action costs nothing, and under the right conditions (when there is a spiritual barrier that only prayer can remove), it will also have an impact and be beneficial. Someone who does not pray can miss a spiritual opportunity, just like someone who refuses to take a lottery ticket that is offered to him for free. There is no reason to pay a single shekel for a lottery ticket, but there is no reason to refuse to receive a free ticket. Especially since there is no “probability” here in the usual scientific sense, but rather a spiritual channel that can be beneficial or blocked, depending on the state of the person and the world at a given moment.
The conclusion is that the world of faith, in which prayer operates, must be separated from the world of science and statistics. The attempt to impose scientific tools on the reality of faith leads to an internal contradiction, in which the measurement itself contradicts the preconditions established by the Creator. Therefore, the attempt to prove or disprove the effect of prayer in a scientific way is doomed to failure, and conclusions should not be drawn from it regarding the true validity of prayer.
PS I saw that you wrote that you are not responding because you have already responded to the argument in the past. This means that you expect the reader to be familiar with your various writings, including your answers, with impressive familiarity. This is an irrational demand – you could easily copy and paste repeated answers or provide a reference to where you think the answer is found. This is minimal respect for someone who bothered to respond to a response that is not even trivial in your opinion, after all, you have answered it in the past, according to you.