Norton’s Dome (Column 687)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
A brief look at determinism
I have often discussed here the question of determinism: a view according to which the present state fixes the future uniquely—i.e., it cannot be that the same history yields two different futures. This touches on the human being and our relation to the rest of nature: it is commonly thought that “nature” (inanimate, vegetative, animal) is determinist; the open question is only the human being—does a person have free will?
From the early 20th century, quantum theory developed and exhibited non-deterministic domains (at least according to the common interpretations). Chaos theory came later and is often (mistakenly) presented as undermining determinism; but I have written more than once that chaos does not deny determinism. What it presents is a computational difficulty in predicting the future; the future itself, given complete data, is uniquely determined. By contrast, in quantum theory—again, at least in the common interpretations—it appears there really is a departure from determinism.
As for classical physics—once one sets chaos aside—there is wall-to-wall agreement that it is entirely determinist.
Determinism and reversibility in Newtonian mechanics
The laws of physics—and in particular Newtonian mechanics—are described by differential equations that determine the next state from the present one. In effect, given complete knowledge of the present (and sufficient computational power), one can fix the future categorically.
For those unfamiliar with the derivative, here is a brief reminder. Suppose X(t)X(t) records, say, the position of a body as a function of time. We may ask about the rate of change of XX with time: how fast it changes, and in which direction. The derivative quantifies this:
(1)
If during seconds the position changes by
meters, the average rate is
m/s. Passing to ever smaller
gives the instantaneous rate. Differentiating once more gives the acceleration (
)—the rate of change of velocity.
Newton’s second law ties this to force:
(2)
Here is mass,
is position, and
is the force (which may depend on position and on time). Solving such an equation means finding the function
—the full trajectory. To do so uniquely one must add initial conditions: the position and velocity at some initial time. With those specified, the mechanics is (classically) fully deterministic.
A further feature is time reversibility: if we film a Newtonian process and run the film backwards, we get another legitimate Newtonian process. The equations are second-order in time; replacing by
leaves the structure intact.
Norton’s Dome
Now to the “dome.” Consider a perfectly symmetric dome whose radial cross-section is given (in cylindrical coordinates) by
(3)
Here is the horizontal distance from the apex along the surface,
is the vertical height (measured downward from the apex),
is the gravitational acceleration, and
is a positive constant.
Place a frictionless point-mass (“a tiny bead”) at rest exactly at the apex. By symmetry, the tangential component of gravity along the surface turns out to be proportional to , so the radial equation of motion (again, idealizing: no friction, only gravity) is:
(4)
Impose the natural initial conditions of “rest on the top”:
It turns out there are two kinds of solutions:
(5a) (the bead stays forever at the apex);
(5b)
for any arbitrary .
Interpretation: the bead can wait atop the dome for an arbitrary duration and then, with no external trigger and from zero velocity, spontaneously begin to slide down. Because of the dome’s rotational symmetry it may do so in any horizontal direction. Thus there are infinitely many solutions: for every choice of
and every direction.
By time-reversal, one also gets the mirror family: a bead that comes up the dome from some direction, slows down exactly at the apex, sits there for an arbitrary time, and (run backwards) “came from” a spontaneous start at some earlier .
Why doesn’t this happen on a spherical dome? On a true sphere, to arrive at rest exactly at the top requires an ascent that takes infinite time; conversely, to start from exact rest on top would require rewinding from an infinite past—there is no finite-time “takeoff.” Norton’s special profile (3) avoids that and permits finite-time departure.
Why this is a paradox
This looks like a direct contradiction of Newtonian determinism. We supplied perfectly good initial data (), yet multiple futures are possible: the bead may remain forever, or depart at any time
in any direction. Nothing in the system “chooses”
or the direction; it is as if there is spontaneous motion “for no reason.”
How to respond to a paradox? In general, we have a few options:
-
Find a mistake in the reasoning.
-
Reject one of the assumptions.
-
Give up the contested conclusion.
-
Or admit tzarich iyyun (“needs investigation”) and suspend judgment.
Here, the mathematics looks correct; and even if one were to reject Newton’s laws as a true description of nature, the paradox arises from the equations themselves, not from experiment. So the third path—abandoning determinism derived from Newton—is the one the dome seems to force: perhaps Newton’s laws (despite being differential equations) are not always determinist.
For discussion of background and related issues (Hebrew), see the Q&A here:
Is determinism really just a corollary of Newton?
What makes Norton’s example so unsettling is that determinism is not merely a reading of Newton’s equations—it is also tied to causality: nothing happens without a cause. If Newton’s laws sometimes fail to be determinist, then even if they are a decent approximation, they cannot be the correct description of the physical world, which (at least classically) we expect to be causal and determinist. Events should not occur without causes; the time and direction of the bead’s motion should be the result of some cause, not arbitrary.
Yes, quantum theory suggests there may be genuinely non-causal phenomena (depending on interpretation—hidden variables, non-local causality, etc.). But our classical intuition about causality remains powerful. If we don’t give it up quickly for quantum mechanics, all the more so we should not abandon it for classical mechanics.
Common “resolutions”
One often-noted point (see the literature) is that at the force law embodied in (4) is not Lipschitz/“nice” enough; uniqueness theorems for ODEs fail, and the non-uniqueness of solutions is mathematically allowed. But that observation alone does not solve the physical problem; at most it says: Newton’s equations, taken with such potentials/shapes, need not be determinist—and thus cannot be a faithful representation of nature in such cases.
A different line (raised in the discussion I saw) is to rewrite Newton’s second law as: “When no force acts, there is no acceleration; when a force acts, there is.” Up to the bead is stationary at the apex and the tangential component vanishes, so
there; past
, the force becomes nonzero and motion begins. But this does not explain how the system passes from the apex (where the tangential component is zero) to any neighboring point where it is nonzero, without something that causes that departure. The step where the law “turns on” remains opaque.
“There is no square since the Six Days of Creation”: a quick fix?
My initial thought was that the issue lies in the shape: the function defining the dome has a cusp at the apex so that second derivatives (curvatures) misbehave there. Perhaps such a shape cannot exist in the physical world: nature, so to speak, does not produce true cusps and second-derivative discontinuities.
Said differently: to speak of an object with perfect, cusp-like features requires arbitrarily fine spatial resolution; but at sufficiently fine scales, the classical continuum picture breaks down and quantum/atomic granularity rules. In that regime, classical mechanics does not apply; the analysis is simply not about the physical world. In a “rounded” reality without perfect cusps, the paradoxical behavior would not arise.
An old rabbinic quip captures the intuition: “Since the Six Days of Creation, there is no (perfect) square”—i.e., nature yields rounded, differentiable forms; sharp corners are the work of intentional craftsmanship, not spontaneous nature (cf. Tosefta Ma’aserot ch. 3; Yerushalmi Ma’aserot 5:3). Even where nature seems to make peaks, on closer inspection the second derivative exists and behaves—our choice of variables may create apparent non-smoothness, but nature itself “likes” continuity and differentiability. See also the mathematical notion of density in number theory for an analogy of “no nearest point” on a continuum: https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A6%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%AA_(%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%AA_%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A1%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D)
Bottom line
It seems we can retain: (a) the causal–determinist intuition for classical physics; and (b) Newton’s laws as an excellent description of classical reality—provided we exclude idealized shapes/conditions that cannot occur in the physical world (true cusps, perfect non-Lipschitz features, etc.). That is already a substantial conclusion, but a digestible one.
For a related earlier column, see here:
https://mikyab.net/en/posts/83362/
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Regarding the continuity of nature, there is also the hairstyle theorem, which is a derivative of Baror's Sabbath point:
https://www.hamichlol.org.il/%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A4%D7%98_%D7%94%D7%9B%D7%93%D7%95%D7%A8_%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%A8
I don't have the tools to understand the mathematical calculations (due to my sins and my disdain for the field when I was young), but I really enjoyed the laughs that the Rabbi inserted every second and the various and incessant references that are priceless. Maybe the Rabbi will write a book of nonsense at times that are neither day nor night. And if I only came to the column for a laugh, that's enough. Thanks to the Rabbi
I was surprised – when they said it was possible to reduce – after all, the ball sitting on the edge of the dome sits on a
point – zero area – and therefore exerts infinite pressure on it. This pressure will change the shape of the dome
it will create a cavity in which the ball will sit for sure. And it is not to say that the ball has no mass – because then the force of gravity will not act.
And more – from reading on Wikipedia I understood – the size r in the formula is the distance between the vertex and the ball –
on the surface – and this distance creates a circle on the surface – the ball has to decide where and when it
starts to move – and also in which direction?
Perhaps writing the formulas taking into account the three-dimensionality of the model will give a single answer?
Interesting note. If the contact is at a mathematical point then the pressure is not defined at all. The area of a point is not 0. A point has no area. It's like I wrote here before about the difference between a point (which has no length) and an infinitesimal (a line with 0 length).
I didn't understand the second part. That's what I wrote, that the ball chooses the direction and time.
You could also say that there is a mass point here and there is no such thing in reality (the presentation of a sphere on a dome is just an illustration and if you have to calculate for a real sphere it becomes more complicated). You could also say that the gravitational field is uniform and homogeneous and there is none in reality (on Earth gravity is approximately radial) and so on and so forth, but in my opinion all of this is irrelevant. It is similar to friction found in the real world but not in the thought experiment that simplifies things in order to convey its message. This message goes through even after these difficulties because it touches on the foundations of physics, and if there is a problem with the foundations, the problem will not disappear because of the details.
In other words, it is probably possible to find a trio of shapes (planet + dome + mass) that even after the deformation due to gravity, and even after there is a contact surface with a distributed and not point force, still results in a force field that produces the apparent anomaly.
This could also be the answer to Mikhi who claimed that in the real world all shapes are cut infinitely many times, or at least twice (a claim that I am really not sure about).
Perhaps in this case it would be appropriate to present the problem of the stability of the sphere on the vertex as a rhetorical question and solution given by Thomas Aquinas.
I didn't understand anything.
I don't understand how this case is different from many cases in physics where a differential equation is solved for a particular case and some of the solutions are rejected because they are not "physical". For example, the case of an electric manipulator whose charge oscillates sinusoidally in time. In such a case, there are two solutions: one that goes forward in time - electromagnetic radiation that propagates from the particle and onwards in a sinusoidal manner (a spherical wavefront) and one that goes backward in time (a spherical wavefront of radiation that comes from infinity and contracts to the point where the charge is located, and when it reaches it, the charge springs into existence and its value begins to increase), which essentially expresses the description that the field generates the charge instead of the other way around. We know that the equations of mechanics and electromagnetism are mathematical and you have already written in your book on the science of freedom that mathematics cannot express the concept of causality in which there is a forward in time because the equations are symmetric to time reversal. There are also cases where a solution explodes at a certain point in space and its value reaches infinity and we also reject that out of the understanding that there are no infinite quantities at a certain point in a dispute in physics.
So the same thing here. There are infinite non-physical solutions since they are not deterministic. In short, the ruling is that mathematics, which is the latter only an auxiliary tool in the hands of the physicist for understanding reality but does not replace his direct intuition and direct understanding. Just as causality cannot be pushed into the equations of physics and it does not derive from them (because symmetry to time reversal is usually considered a necessary requirement), so the same is true of determinism.
The difference is that here there are complete initial conditions and yet the solution is not unique. This does not happen in a wave that travels back and forth. Furthermore, here all the solutions are physical and none can be ruled out.
B ”E
What do you think about the following idea: Every segment of the ball's trajectory on the dome is actually a multiple of pi.
And pi cannot be created exactly
in a discrete material world, so such a reality is not possible
[It is similar to the fact that there is no “spike” in the style of the solution]
(In a sidebar, a dome is actually just a “technical” solution, but conceptually it can be applied to a circle)
There is nothing special about pi as a length. Furthermore, a part of pi can also be a whole number. It also depends on what pi is? (Pi meters, centimeters or piones) Incidentally, there is no pi here. In short, irrelevant.
I didn't understand the math, just the general idea. From what I did understand, the conclusion is that the dome in question does not belong to classical reality, but perhaps to quantum reality. But in any case, there is apparently proof here that at least in quantum reality there is no determinism, unlike the various explanations that try to maintain determinism even at the quantum level. Did I understand this point correctly?
No. The conclusion is that there is no such dome. It has nothing to do with quantum theory and its determinism.
Maybe more of an engineering question - isn't it possible to make a magnetic field that would be in the shape of a perfect geodesic dome?
I didn't understand.
If I understand correctly – The problem with implementing Norton's experiment is that at the atomic level it is impossible to create a discontinuous surface with a spike at its tip.
If this is indeed the problem – Is it technically possible to create a magnetic field with a “spike” on which we place a metal ball and be able to implement the beacon in a real experiment?
Not specifically related to the atom. Nature is finite. Therefore, it is probably not possible in a magnetic field either. Beyond that, the equations of motion in a magnetic field are different.