On the Contribution of the Haredim – A Look at Some Foolish Arguments (Column 629)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
In recent weeks, the controversy over drafting the Haredim has flared up again (and not “drafting yeshiva students,” as Haredi demagogues try to sell us). Time and again we hear the preposterous claims about the Haredim’s marvelous contribution to security, society, and the economy, about their outstanding volunteering, and so on. Honestly, it’s hard to believe anyone needs arguments to see that this is demagogic nonsense—but it turns out there are quite a few fools who buy this tripe. To my astonishment, even among the Haredim who put forward these arguments there are some who truly believe them and don’t realize they’re being fed apologetic propaganda for distribution.
Drafting Haredim or Drafting Yeshiva Students
As noted, the Haredim insist on presenting this as a controversy about drafting yeshiva students rather than drafting Haredim. But that is, of course, a lie. First, all those who did not decide to devote themselves to Torah also do not enlist. True, some Haredi spokesmen repeat again and again that they should be drafted, but in practice these are empty words. There is strong opposition to the enlistment of any Haredi—both politically and via social pressure on those who enlist. I won’t even get into the fictitious registrations to avoid the draft and other well-known tricks.
By the way, the lie of Torah magena u’matzla (“Torah protects and saves”), which I already addressed in Column 609, even on their view, applies only to those who sit and learn—not to everyone who wears a suit. We’ve never heard that a suit “protects and saves.” On the contrary, the fear among suit-wearers of the army’s supposed negative influences suggests the suits don’t really protect. Beyond this, even if it’s only those who have genuinely accepted upon themselves the yoke of Torah—a very small minority—we must ensure their number does not exceed what is reasonable. Even they do not deserve a sweeping exemption.
I must say that one of the ugliest and most demagogic pamphlets I’ve seen lately is the following letter:
If this is the level of thinking, here’s more evidence of the disconnect between analytical ability in Talmudic analysis and basic common sense. Beyond the fiction that “Torah protects and saves,” he is essentially claiming that wearing a suit counts as combat support. The fact that there is shirking of service in the general public as well, and that the IDF does not operate at peak efficiency and effectiveness (to put it mildly)—a fact Haredi spokesmen gleefully repeat—is, of course, true. But there it is not organized, institutionalized, and ideological. In addition, I read a few years ago that the ratio of combat support to combat soldiers in the IDF is among the lowest in the world. One must remember that every combat soldier requires a certain number of combat-support personnel—even if not exactly the numbers we have—without whom soldiers cannot fight. “Combat support” is not a synonym for “draft-dodger.” Thus his argument collapses. These foolish comparisons are penny-ante demagoguery. It’s very easy to accuse others—sometimes with a measure of truth and sometimes not at all—and use that as the basis for your own shirking.
On the contrary: if you have an idea to improve the army’s effectiveness and efficiency, please, enlist and cooperate to improve the situation. Haredi armchair experts explain to us that we actually don’t need soldiers, and that the IDF is overstaffed anyway (they know this from an equidistant-letter study of the Gemara). Other Haredi experts recommend a professional army. Good for them—they examined both feasibility and the social, economic, and security implications thoroughly during the mashgiach’s Monday lunch-break talk (right before the mussar session—“Turn it and turn it, for everything is in it”).
In recent weeks all this chatter has been refuted by the leadership of this distorted public itself. The government they are part of decided to extend the duration of regular service and quadruple the length of reserve service. Naturally, without touching the enlistment of Haredim. They do this with brazen impudence as if there were no problem. There is no limit to the chutzpah and the desecration of God’s name. I doubt any Torah they study will protect them in the Heavenly Court, where they will receive their due as the worst offenders among Israel, great and small. I only hope Deri, Gafni, and Goldknopf won’t forget to announce that the talking points need updating (since, all of a sudden, we do lack soldiers).
The common claims directed at the national-religious public (including from not a few national-religious rabbis) that its members feel greater solidarity with secular Jews than with Haredim, or the claim that they feel solidarity with combat support in the army rather than with “support” in yeshivot—these too are shabby demagoguery. Of course I will feel solidarity with those who shoulder the burden—rather than with those who may be close to me in values but brazenly shirk carrying the burden and use the entire society as a cash cow. By the way, do the Haredim feel solidarity at least with that small percentage of combat soldiers? How many hours in the yeshiva are dedicated to fostering that sense of solidarity? Or perhaps the sticky slogan “your brother,” which appears here as in every Haredi propaganda pamphlet, does not actually reflect any sense of brotherhood.
On Volunteering and Fulfilling Obligations
There is one principled point that recurs in the shallow pamphleteering discourse of Haredi spokesmen. They supposedly volunteer in wondrous fashion, more than any other public, and thereby fully discharge their duty to society (they too, just like paroled prisoners, have “paid their debt to society”). There are charity enterprises, various gemachim, and of course Hatzalah and ZAKA, which have been in the headlines lately and made into heroes of the age. There is some recruitment of Haredim to dubious frameworks, mainly meant to integrate them into society and give them an economic base—but not always to benefit the army optimally (understatement alert). Beyond that, these frameworks comprise a minuscule percentage of Haredi draft-age men (a percentage that is not growing over the years, contrary to the misleading public image), and even this minority faces significant opposition and difficulties within Haredi society. Yet outwardly they are presented as social heroes and a symbol of sharing the burden. By the way, a significant portion of participants in these frameworks—whose numbers are tiny in any case—are not Haredim, but the media coverage is always framed as Haredi progress toward integration (see, for example, the critique here of a piece by Yair Cherki. Incidentally, Cherki himself has noted more than once that Haredi enlistment in recent years is a bluff).
Instead of wrestling with these silly claims, I’ll bring here an excellent post by Rabbi Ilay Ofran.[1] I couldn’t have put it better:
One day last week, a few students at the mechina (pre-military academy) didn’t wake up on time, and I found myself doing one of my least favorite things in education—a scolding talk. I tried to explain to them the difference between someone who accidentally oversleeps and someone who goes to bed knowing he’ll get up late tomorrow. Because slip-ups happen to everyone sometimes; usually that’s not terrible. The real problems begin not when someone breaks the rules, but when there’s someone in the group who assumes that the rules that apply to everyone simply don’t apply to him. Yes, there’s some general expectation, a law or regulation—but it doesn’t concern me. I’ll join when and how I feel like it. And that inner posture is what breaks a community. Therefore, the important question isn’t how many rules you keep or break, but whether you see yourself as part of the group at all. It may be one reason why many couples who have lived together for years still feel it’s important to marry before having children. Because that dramatic step—perhaps the most dramatic decision in a person’s life—is hard to take based only on the voluntary basis of love, friendship, and passion. The basis of that partnership is the agreement that some shared system of rules applies to us. In religious language, I think it’s called a “covenant”—a sharp and clear mutual commitment that doesn’t depend on some passing whim. This insight has become sharper for me recently around the issue of equality in bearing the burden, because I think we’re framing the issue incorrectly. The fault line in Israeli society is not between those who serve and those who don’t, but between those who think the rules apply to them and those who exempt themselves from the collective. Because it turns out there are those who didn’t serve and yet are part of the covenant, and there are those who fully serve but, in the depths of their soul, take themselves out of the collective. One who claims that a ZAKA volunteer contributes more to the state than a “sprinkler NCO” at the Kirya (IDF HQ) is right. And those who argue that National Service roles can be as significant and important as some roles in the army are also right. But the meaningful question is not “How much did you contribute?” but “Do you see yourself as part of the collective?”—or more precisely, “Do the obligations that apply to everyone also apply to you?” In Haredi and Hardali society, this method is very common—exempt yourself from the rules that apply to everyone, and then volunteer with great zeal. I have the utmost respect—very seriously—for all the volunteers, but I wouldn’t be willing to build a family, a community, or a state with you. A covenant is based first and foremost on obligation, and just as you can’t build a mechina with guys who get up in the morning only when it suits them, and you can’t build a family with someone who will function as a father only when he feels like it, so too you can’t build a state with someone whose contribution is based on volunteering—even if he is truly a devoted volunteer. That is the plain meaning of the sages’ teaching: “Greater is the one who is commanded and does than the one who is not commanded and does”—volunteering is nice, but a “covenant” exists only with those who see themselves as obligated. The moment a 12th-grader signs “Torato Omanuto” (Torah as his occupation) or when a 12th-grade girl declares [and receives an exemption], they remove themselves from the collective and proclaim: the rules that apply to all other citizens don’t concern me. Now that I’m exempt from any duty, I’ll decide whether, when, and how much to contribute. So, kudos to the young women who, despite the exemption, go and contribute through National Service—truly from the heart. And kudos to the young men in higher yeshivot and in some of the “line” mechinot who, after “Torato Omanuto,” sign a waiver and enlist in the army and risk their lives bravely. That is truly amazing. And kudos to the Haredi volunteers in MDA, Yad Sarah, ZAKA, and Yedidim. All these contributions are uplifting and heart-warming; their drawback is simply that they are not part of the covenant. It doesn’t matter how hard you worked, and it doesn’t even matter how many fallen you have. A covenant is the security and knowledge that you will always be there with us—and not only when it suits you. The sprinkler NCO at the Kirya may not be crawling under enemy fire, but in essence he sees himself as part of the covenant. He understands that the rules that apply to everyone apply to him as well. Therefore he is a true partner. He may contribute little, but you can truly rely on him. That’s how you build a family; that’s how you build a community. That’s how you build a mechina. That’s how you build a state. Passover is approaching. It’s worth recalling from time to time how the Haggadah refers to the son who takes himself out of the collective. |
Beyond the claim about bearing the burden of obligations rather than volunteering, it’s worth recalling what Rabbi Shai Piron said: no one returns from ZAKA in a coffin. That’s an important statement when we recall the sanctimonious criticism of the “Eretz Nehederet” sketch about the knock at the door (see for example here and dozens of other articles, posts, and interviews), as well as the sanctimonious criticism by various rabbis and journalists from the national-religious sector of the campaign that presented the number of fallen soldiers from the national-religious community to argue that the Haredim must enlist (see for example here a response by my former colleagues in Yeruham, among many others). Even Rabbi Sheinvald, head of the Hesder Yeshiva in Modi’in, who came out against this campaign, later repeated the same points in a sugar-coated, flattering language—true to the best tradition of the national-religious inferiority complex toward the Haredim.
These two critiques and similar ones are entirely substantive, presenting relevant facts and arguments (see the same arguments also here and here). I cannot grasp why anyone thinks they must not be presented—“Touch not Mine anointed.” You may be a parasite, but don’t you dare remind the parasite that he is one! It reminds me of what the rabbi of the community in Yeruham told me angrily when I criticized the conduct of the council head and the Haredim who joined him, and wrote that they are corrupt and mistreating the public in Yeruham. The rabbi rebuked me for lashon hara and desecration of God’s name. And I wondered aloud: Is it permitted to steal and behave corruptly, and only warning about it is lashon hara and a desecration of God’s name? Such selective sanctimony appears again and again in the discussion of the Haredim.
The Ailments of Volunteering
Beyond the malady inherent in volunteering instead of fulfilling one’s duty, volunteering poses another problem. The moment certain matters are done on a volunteer basis rather than within an orderly state framework, that opens the door to many ills—and they will not be slow to arrive. I recently read an investigative report about ZAKA, for example. If what’s written there is correct, then contrary to the heroic halo it received after the recent war, it’s not at all clear how necessary it was. Moreover, the claim is that its actions even caused harm. For PR reasons, it was important for them to act and be seen—since that justifies their existence. By heavy-handed means they secured deployment in places where there were dedicated army units that should have done the work more efficiently and professionally. Fundraising was an inseparable part of their activity throughout. But it turns out they were apparently right: the impression created in the public was exactly what they wanted to create. See also here another investigation about inflating headcount to obtain budgets. That unhealthy competition exists as well regarding MDA versus the various Hatzalah organizations (and MDA is hardly free of failures and problems).
In general, all these Haredi volunteer activities—like Hatzalah, ZAKA, and the like—strike me as very puzzling. Aren’t they supposed to be studying in the yeshiva all that time? If they have time to volunteer and they are not learning in kollel, why can’t they enlist? We are told again and again that learning justifies not enlisting and that it protects us. Yet at the same time all those who are not learning proudly boast that they volunteer. If they’re not learning—let them enlist. I assume the blessed activities of ZAKA and Hatzalah can be performed without them as well (exactly as they were before those organizations were formed). You can’t dance at all weddings: you can’t say that learning substitutes for everything else and at the same time explain that they are engaged in numerous other activities for the good of society. Oh, actually—you can.
Core Curriculum Studies
First of all, let it be known that Haredim who study Talmud from childhood do not need a core curriculum. They can make it up in seconds the moment they need it. Every schoolchild knows that someone accustomed to analyzing a Talmudic sugya—Einstein’s relativity and quantum theory are child’s play for him. Such absurd statements can be made only by those who live in the Haredi bubble—those who have never encountered a difficult subject they couldn’t manage or comprehend due to its challenges. In mathematics or physics, a paper by R. Akiva Eiger is supposedly the equivalent of a child’s exercise by comparison. Incidentally, most students never encounter a subject or lecture of that level (to my judgment, apart from physics and mathematics, there are very few subjects with such difficulty). Such people naturally do not see that there are almost no products of the Haredi world in professions that require real education (sciences, medicine, and the like). Beyond the late start, many of them simply cannot cope with these subjects. I won’t share my experiences from courses I taught in the Haredi track at Ono Academic College, where I directly observed the wondrous analytical and logical abilities of Talmud students. Of course there are excellent talents there too, but the claim that Talmud study substitutes for education is a bad joke.
I’ll just note what I said to a couple who visited my home a few weeks ago. I am repeatedly stunned by the gap between the lamdanut abilities and the intellectual abilities of Haredi avrechim (married scholars). People can present brilliant moves in Talmudic lamdanut and behave like complete calves when we need to define concepts and basic principles and think in an orderly way. They are so accustomed to vertlach and clever twists that their organized, systematic thinking is damaged almost beyond repair. This surprises me every time, since in my view Talmudic lamdanut should be one of the fields that most requires orderly and original thinking and the definition of concepts and basic principles. This dissonance is truly a puzzle, but that doesn’t stop Eichler from confidently explaining that core-curriculum studies are unnecessary even for a “heretic” who, against the will of all the great rabbis of the generation, chooses to go to work, heaven forbid.
The Economic Contribution
You won’t believe it, but some stubbornly argue that the Haredim’s contribution to the economy is great and immense. I first heard this brainwave from my study partner. His claim was that producers have no special contribution, since state revenues come from those who consume their products. Buyers pay taxes and VAT, and that’s the money that makes its way to the state treasury via the manufacturer and the seller. Haredim, who consume for their many children, thus pay taxes like everyone else. And even if someone is wealthy and spends more—does he deserve our gratitude for being a spendthrift? Is there an obligation to spend a lot of money? You must understand: the producer contributes nothing to the economy. The taxes (income tax and VAT) he transfers to the state treasury are passed on to the buyers (they’re baked into the price). Therefore, in the end, buyers are the ones who fund the state and put all the money in its coffers. I saw this “insight” again here from one of their great propagandists and brazen demagogues, Eichler shlita (see the interview here from 10:30 onward. The entire interview is a model of arrogance, malice, and infantile mendacity, as is customary in Eichler’s beit midrash).
This argument reminds me of a family joke that was common in our home. Whenever we saw a cost-saving device (like a water-saving toilet flush) or an economical product package, the kids told me to buy a large quantity so I would save tons of money and could stay home instead of going to work. The idea was that one could simply work by saving. That’s exactly what Eichler proposes for the State of Israel. The best thing is to “work by saving.” We should distribute money to anyone who wants it and then collect a percentage back in taxes. He’ll spend his money on purchases, and thus the state coffers will fill from tax revenues. The crucial question that all these wise guys find most convenient to ignore is: who brings something from the outside in so there is something flowing within that closed loop? That’s where production comes in. A producer’s contribution is not the taxes he pays (though that also reflects it), but the fact that he adds an external contribution to output. But that question apparently requires advanced core-curriculum studies—no wonder Eichler failed to notice it.
On second thought, it seems more akin to the known tale of Hershele, who entered a bakery and ordered rolls. Then he noticed there were doughnuts on the counter and asked to exchange his rolls for doughnuts. They exchanged them, he sat and ate, and when he finished he got up and left (without paying). The seller ran after him and demanded payment, and Hershele asked: “Payment for what?” “For the doughnuts,” the man replied. “But I gave you the rolls in exchange,” retorted Hershele-Eichler. The seller growled that he hadn’t paid for the rolls, but Hershele is not one to lose his composure in tough moments: “I didn’t eat the rolls—so why should I pay for them?!”
I refer you to a more sophisticated apologetic article that ostensibly cites data and blames the critics. In light of what I wrote here, you’ll easily spot its main flaws. Beyond the blurring of concepts—a well-known apologetic tool (“Define ‘Haredi’!”)—it brazenly ignores the question of production and focuses on the question of cost to the state treasury, subsidies, and purchasing power. Incidentally, even regarding those data, its reliance on official numbers is naïve (at best). It is impossible to ascertain the true figures in these matters, since a great deal of transfers to the Haredi world do not occur via regular budgetary line items that can be tracked, and much has already been written about this.
Conclusion: How Do Intelligent People End Up Saying Childish Nonsense with Deep Conviction?
We are dealing with a collection of ridiculous arguments, and you can hear them from any average Haredi mouth—from the greatest roshei yeshiva, through the fixers, down to rank-and-file avrechim. Intelligent people with razor-sharp analytical capacity spout absurd drivel like kindergarten children—and do so with deep, fervent self-conviction. You wonder where our wise and prudent nation has gone; where the Torah’s insight and far-seeing eyes have gone. The answer is that propaganda works—especially when it comes with pangs of conscience or with no conscience at all (see below). If you repeat a piece of nonsense enough times, even the person who invented it starts to believe it.
For many years now, whenever I hear a Haredi spokesperson in a media debate about the Haredim, I recall the joke about Nixon (later applied to Ariel Sharon). In Nixon’s merry days, people in America would ask: What’s the sign that tells us Nixon is lying? Answer: when he moves his lips. A Haredi spokesperson in the media is always an explainer, and as such he is a liar by definition. It’s hard to find a word of truth in what they say—and that’s exceptional even by the lax truth standards of the media. They can tell you with deep conviction that they are persecuted (sometimes that’s even true), that budgets owed to them by right are withheld, that they all enlist except for a handful who study in yeshiva (and if someone shirks, please enlist him and don’t generalize), that their budgets are the lowest of all sectors, and that their contribution to GDP is about that of Bill Gates. Of course they don’t oppose Zionism at all, and certainly don’t look down on anyone else. They constantly pray for IDF soldiers and for all of us. They “mark” Memorial Day in their own way (and anyway, why should we mark it if you don’t mark Tisha B’Av?!) and on and on. These spokesmen manufacture the foolish arguments that are then adopted by the Haredi masses “in the fields” (i.e., in the beit midrash—the Haredi translation of “field,” like David’s cistern of Bethlehem in Bava Kamma 60b).
Here we reach the question of conscience, and allow me to end with a psychological note. I have no doubt that any honest Haredi feels distress, since it is clear that as a community they behave parasitically, immorally, and perversely. Therefore any pretext, however flimsy, may help him make peace with his conscience (at least among those who still have one). In fact, I think the conscience-less (the spokesmen) are the ones who supply these foolish pretexts for the use of the conscientious, so that the latter can live with themselves and look in the mirror only through “the pure hashkafa,” i.e., the one-way mirror that filters what they see. The learned psychologists call this phenomenon “cognitive dissonance.” You see—even in psychology you can sometimes find words of wisdom.
Generally speaking, I strongly recommend not engaging in meet-and-greet “understanding” sessions between groups. They usually don’t help. But meetings with Haredim are a real waste of time. They come to deliver a message and are usually represented by professional spokesmen (try arranging a meeting with Haredi children or youth), and they recite the scripts that were put in their mouths (true, this is not unique to the Haredim, but it is especially conspicuous among them). Therefore, it’s not worth listening to their arguments, because you won’t hear anything straight or authentic. In my experience, these meetings are grinding already-ground flour. They may have some value if they manage to arouse pangs of conscience among those Haredim whose conscience still exists. But among Haredi spokesmen, that is a rather rare phenomenon. If you succeed in creating dialogue with ordinary folks from the street, that could indeed be useful. But fear not: if you do more of this—and especially if it turns out to be useful—it will immediately be forbidden, and bans will be issued against the participants. They’d be better off enlisting. In the army, at least, there is a cadre of political commissars whose job is to preserve Haredi identity from any foreign influence, heaven forbid. You know what? Maybe that’s the way to get them to enlist…
[1] See also his remarks here.
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As the wise man said,
Don't argue with a fool, he will bring you down to his level, and there he will beat you without difficulty.
Thus the Haredim drag the discussion into a whirlpool of nonsense and delusions, and now go and deal with the collection of nonsense and lies that they have managed to convince themselves of.
Words of truth are evident
The solution is that they will feel some suffering, on a descriptive level I would say to limit military protection to Haredi areas
May the Torah protect them – We will see what happens to them in 5 minutes without an army.
In any case – May God bless him if he cares about his name – Then he will act against the Haredi, because we have no power to do anything about it.
https://www.inn.co.il/news/627559
An exaggerated solution. It's best to simply stop budgeting for meetings, that's the only way they'll understand.
Yes, I saw it. I asked Oren to add it.
Inserted
I agree with every word, except for the contribution to the economy, which you rightly claimed is not from outside money, which is true for basic expenses. What about taxes on the purchase of an apartment, which the Haredi public purchases in quantities that I assume do not come from yeshiva budgets or foreign students, which is definitely outside money?
Who is wrong?
What do you think of the Haredi argument (which is not made public for obvious reasons) that wars and troubles are the result of the sins of the secular and religious, and if everyone were Haredi there would be peace and a good livelihood, then the real solution is not military service but Torah study?
To be honest, right after I posted the column, I remembered this gem, and I thought it was a shame I didn't present it too to complete the folly.
But unlike the other claims, the claim of sins has some basis in the Torah and the Sages.
Yes, it is known. That is why all the prohibitions are permitted for soldiers, such as forbidden foods and a beautiful woman, etc. I assume that if terrorists were to break into a kollel, you would stay there and die so as not to deteriorate outside. Crooked thinking has no basis in the Torah or the Sages.
In the song of praise to Solomon, the necessity of divine assistance in war is explained, for if God does not protect a city, it is in vain that a defender protects, and unfortunately we saw this on Simchat Torah: the guards and lookouts saw and warned, and the decision-making echelons were blinded. The huge and powerful army did not function for long hours, and the situation was saved by individuals who fought bravely with almost empty hands, and miracles.
The lone tank that appeared out of nowhere and saved Kibbutz Saad; the helicopter that made a forced landing with dozens of soldiers who saved Kfar Maimon; The Shlomit readiness squad went out to fight the nearby settlement of Peri-Gan, and their settlement, which was left without a defense force, was miraculously saved because the terrorists had forgotten it.
And already in the first war of the people of Israel, against the murderous attack of Amalek, the need for faith and fortitude in order to win was recognized. When the warriors' eyes were raised to Moses' hands raised in prayer, they would prevail!
First and foremost, God's help depends on the warriors' faith and on maintaining their holiness, which leads to the situation that the Lord your God walks among your camps to save you from your enemies, and from the warriors' commandments: And your camp shall be holy.
Warriors imbued with faith who fight with courage and holiness – must come from serious Torah training, after acquiring a solid Torah and faith base, and from a constant connection to the source of the Torah, to the yeshivots from which they left and to which they will return after the army.
And as the sages said, ‘Our feet were standing’ on the battlefield, by virtue of ‘Your gates, Jerusalem’ standing in Torah and prayer.
There is also a growing process among the Haredi community of careful and controlled integration into military life. See, for example, about ‘Haredi Seder Yeshivas’ in the article ‘Haredim for Their Future’ (On the Channel 7 website. As mutual trust is built, the process will intensify; on the other hand, coercive measures saturated with hatred and contempt will lead to retreat, like water on the face, a person's heart on a person.
With greetings, Fishel
In paragraph 4, line 2
… and from this it is commanded…
I would give them a separate tract of land in the Land of Israel, and after a year it would be possible to check the results... (I assume the disasters would be because the Lithuanians/Chassidics/Shasniks, etc. were not God-fearing or something like that. The gates of excuses were not closed.)
Women are often blamed for disasters, for not being modest.
Not because men haven't learned enough Torah
Only regarding the response of Rabbi Uri and Rabbi Chaim - in my understanding it is not related to the actual question under discussion but to the use of fallen soldiers for campaign purposes without permission from the families. It is insensitive and such things are simply not done and I agree with their response completely. The fact that the son was killed does not make him a public domain or the property of advertising agencies. Let people grieve and do not drag them by force into your wars, however justified they may be. There are enough ways and reasons to oppose the conscription law even without the bereaved parents seeing tomorrow morning that their fallen son's face is being used for the purpose of a political campaign (and when it comes to 9 fallen soldiers, it is more or less like using his face).
I don't see any reason why we need to ask for permission from the families. Does the data belong to them? The son is not public property, but the fact that he fell certainly is. Illusionary.
I heard a different argument: the yeshivots raise a lot of money from abroad, and therefore they are importing clean money.
Indeed. This is a small contribution to Israel's GDP. This appears in detail in the article I linked to. There are also businesses and initiatives by Haredim. Their contribution to the economy is not zero, and I did not claim that. My claim is that their contribution is significantly lower in relation to their percentage of the population.
“A producer's contribution is not in the taxes he pays (although this is also reflected in them), but in that he adds an external contribution to the product.”
That is, if someone, for example, grows a lot of oranges for a living and sells them without paying tax, is there still a contribution to the state? How exactly?
Someone who grows a lot of oranges without paying tax contributes to the economy the gross value of the oranges.
It may be hard to see this if oranges, imagine if someone were to build a house for free to anyone who wants it. Wouldn't that help the economy?
Basically, taxes don't contribute at all to the economy or public wealth (they probably slow it down) it's simply a house payment – a sad necessity.
With oranges*
And if he produces, say, software and sells it to people abroad without paying taxes, does that help the country?
It still helps, because it pays salaries in Israel. There are other indirect effects.
The very act of "selling abroad" is the introduction of foreign currency into the country, the shekels it converts in return the Bank of Israel can print for "free"
The company's seat is in Israel and therefore it pays tax in Israel, the argument itself is not correct.
It is possible that the company will be registered abroad and then it will indeed be dissolved abroad, but the salaries are taxed in Israel.
About half of the country's exports come from high-tech.
Even if they didn't pay taxes (and they do), the fact that they convert dollars into shekels gives value to the shekels that the state prints (the cost of printing the shekels is zero) and thanks to them the state can pay salaries with the colored paper it prints (as mentioned almost free of charge) and state employees and recipients of benefits can exchange the colored paper for cars, televisions, medicines, fuel, plane tickets, food, etc., all of which come from abroad.
Thanks for the column.
I would be happy to ask the rabbi
1. It is clear that the Haredi public is exploited, blackmailed and immoral
But all this was not done in vain.
The sevenfold frustrating thing is that the Israeli public is the same milking cow
Who has not stood up and said so far.
The war will end and Netanyahu's replacements from the left and right
Like all their predecessors, will give the Haredim up to half the kingdom.
What was is what will be, we will watch the Haredim in amazement
And they will continue to score goals into an empty net.
The country is raging over grammar in the reform yes-no Bibi, etc.
While in a decade without the Haredim in the army there will be no country here at all.
Or in other words: there will only be corpse identifiers left here without bodies
So what do we have to worry about them
At the political level, we are led like calves no less than the Haredi public.
Which also does not show independent and mature thinking.
And the only ones who allow this cheap show with an expensive ticket are us.
2. In all the Haredi arguments against the draft that you have put forward here on the site. I missed Rabbi Schach's argument:
Our method and our way would not have led to a state of hatred with the Arabs and we could have lived with them in peace, because we did not come to take anything from them, but to settle in the estate of our ancestors from our uncles and aunts. But
they [the Zionists], because they came to conquer, created a state of hatred with the Arabs by taking from them something that the Arabs rightly emphasized was theirs and therefore they had no choice but to deal with them in the usual political ways.
The Man of Views: Haredi Ideology According to Rabbi Schach”, p’ 126 .
1. You burst into an open door. I have said and written this countless times. The secularists are the main culprits in this. But that does not reduce the blame of the Haredim. Just as lazy police do not say that the robbers are not guilty.
2. I have now addressed this nonsense here above: https://mikyab.net/posts/85445/#comment-80541
The disgrace of organized Haredi evasion is indeed the source of the trouble, but the disgrace also belongs to all the public leaders who allowed this abomination to continue to this day.
After what has happened here in the past year and in light of the increased hatred for settlers in the media (as usual, the public representatives of the left dance to their tunes and their voters are loyal to them. The quiet Valeria in which the scandalous disqualification of the High Court passed) against the background of their sacrifice in the fighting makes me laugh that this discussion is still going on. After it was made clear that the country belongs to a collection of judicial officials who have no loyalty to the Jewish people, I don't understand at all why religious Zionism and the Mizrahi and traditional public are still enlisting at all. And to die to save the lives of Gazans who are "not involved".
I am quite convinced that if the haredim enlist, they will be hated even more than now, as is seen in relation to the settlers.
Besides, I heard from someone who was a soldier in the Air Force at dawn that this track was closed even though it would have been successful because the army decided to conscript two haredim soldiers who refused to be present during women's service. And even though it was submitted to the Supreme Court, the army decided that the orders were not above everything. Then the Haredim learned and did not enlist and this path was closed. You can't really trust the IDF commanders in these matters. And I don't trust them with anything personally.
Very interesting, but the entire (clearly justified) argument here against the ridiculous claims of the ultra-Orthodox fits one to one with all the left's claims in the past year against the reform. The level of the arguments is no less stupid. Somehow it turned out that democracy is a rule of officials who should not be elected by the people (who need to be replaced) but by themselves. And so the heads of academia and most of its members, the heads of the economy, the heads of the military, the Shin Bet and the Mossad for generations, the various jurists, all of them, lacking self-awareness, and all sorts of experts in their own eyes, argued with deep inner conviction.
And here you somehow managed to support their conclusion on the issue (in order to get around the inferiority complex (from the other side) of the religious Zionists towards the secularists and in particular the left). You have to refuse an order and harm the economy, the main thing is that the government falls. You somehow managed to find fault with all the coalition members. These are corrupt, these are parasites, and you even managed to find a flaw in religious Zionism and Ben Gvir who represents a public that is neither corrupt nor parasites - they are racists, thank goodness! (Never mind that you wrote an entire column that racism is something that doesn't really exist except for arrogance. And of course the rest of the opposition are great and vile in their own eyes.)
So this column has come to me again. It turns out that the Haredim were the smartest and understood who they were dealing with. And since the left - through its libel - has always been a champion at inventing super ridiculous and paradoxical arguments and believing them as absolute truth, it is clear that this is the only way to confront them. Stubborn people will twist. I learned this firsthand in all the crazy arguments I had with the creatures from the left. The best way to deal with them is if they go crazy against me.
There are Haredi speakers who are level-headed and honest, like Gershon Moskowitz from Tarbus. It is worth meeting with Haredi, but simply with the right Haredi, and also so that those who meet will not come to fight but to learn and understand both sides.
There is no one like him.
I read and hear the Haredi writers, and it is simply unbelievable. They dare to criticize day and night the protestors who threatened to stop volunteering if the reform continues.
It is not enough for these propagandists that they support the evasion of almost the entire public, they also criticize others who have given many years to the state.
Their audacity that exceeds all limits, and much more than in the past, requires fighting the phenomenon of evasion.
Either recruitment or a stop to budgeting!
https://news.walla.co.il/item/3646377
I didn't add anything.
Honorable Rabbi
What do you suggest the Haredi benefactor do after I read and was convinced?
On a personal level, everyone makes decisions based on their own circumstances. I don't have a suggestion that is right for everyone. But on the level of public discourse, sane voices need to be heard from within the Haredi public. They need to stop going like sheep to the slaughter and waiting for others to do the work for them.
The real reason that the elders and opinion leaders in the Haredi public do not support conscription into the army, *and rightly so*, is that in the IDF the percentage of those who do not do so experiences a huge spiritual decline during their time in the army.
Have you experienced a spiritual decline or a spiritual decline during your service?
You cannot use the excuse “so they can prepare their students for the religious/faith problems that arise during the army.”
It does not work well at all. Everyone is still too young and it is clear that a significant portion of 18-year-olds find it very difficult to build a serious level of faith that will protect them from doing so or all sorts of other sins that are abundant in the army (and I am not even mentioning the fact that there will be less actual Torah study among the Jewish people).
Besides, ask the national religious public, who still do a lot of preparation before conscription, and are still in complete interaction with the secular public even before conscription. And yet, a huge percentage of those who opt out of the question drop out (who might not have opted out if they were, for example, getting married or starting straight into the professional world, and certainly not if they chose to study Torah).
There is a solution, but it is not in sight in the foreseeable future, of establishing military units that would suit this public, without any problematic interaction for them. But beyond the fact that the implementation is problematic, it also harms the methodology of the “People's Army”.
So you choose, Mikhi, the price of true equality in the burden is that Israel is necessarily less Jewish, and to a considerable extent, interested?
I can only say that listers like you have conquered it. After you have abandoned the army, you come up with claims about how it looks. The duty is yours as it is for any other public and person. The need to defend yourself before any other need and rejects any other prohibition. No one would have had to prepare their students for military service if we had acted as we should have acted. And I am speaking from the beginning of Zionism.
The methodology of the “People's Army” that you are talking about, does not interest me as much as a peel of garlic. As long as every group takes part in the duty of defense and contribution to society, they will not integrate into the People's Army and do whatever nonsense they see fit. That is not the discussion. You claim that they do not enlist because if they enlist, there will be no People's Army here? It reminds me of a story about a kiosk that my wife asked him to employ an elderly acquaintance of ours who needed a living. To arrange for him to deliver newspapers, etc. He said that he did not like employing an elderly woman. And so, because of his righteousness, because he is great, he left her to starve. This is exactly your argument. It can be added to the arguments of foolishness mentioned in the column (there are several more that I did not touch on).
Beyond that, the distorted norms of Judaism that prevail in the Haredi world are indeed in danger with exposure to the world. These are norms that correspond to the world of ideas (the crooked) and not to this world. From their perspective, the Torah was given to the ministering angels (from the Sitra Akhara). The question is, what does this say about these norms? In short, are you right that following service you become less Jewish. You do indeed wear suits less and speak Yiddish, but I have already written that a suit does not condemn or punish. In my opinion (and probably also in the opinion of the Almighty) if you do not enlist, you become less Jewish (and more of a blasphemer). Don't forget that military veterans are permitted every prohibition, such as eating carrion. In the army, people are also killed and the Sabbath is desecrated (with permission). So it is true that the color of the suit will turn gray. If this is your Judaism, then it's probably better that it be harmed.
You asked what I choose. I wrote it quite clearly. I hope that reading comprehension is still a value even in the Haredi world.
Oh, and one more thing. Another foolish argument that the army is corrupt. This is only partially true. Usually, those who get there are already “corrupted,” otherwise, as an ultra-Orthodox person, they wouldn’t have joined the army. Therefore, corruption is a cause, not a result, of the draft. Just look and see how many of the students at the Rabbinical Center are corrupt in military service. When you declare that those who enlist are corrupt, don’t be surprised if you discover that those who enlist are “corrupted.”
This is also partially true in my opinion. If a person wants to contribute and is Haredi, why should that automatically make them "spoiled"? Your entire article talks about the fact that in the end they too need to contribute, and in the end it seems that a Haredi person comes out bald on both sides. When he doesn't enlist, he evades, and when he enlists, he deteriorates. Part of the solution, in my opinion, is mainly social, so that a person feels that he is perceived as "good" by both sides. Such statements can only weaken someone who also cares about his spirituality and, on the other hand, has a healthy head who understands the obligations of enlistment.
You are confusing what is true with what is useful. All your arguments talk about marketing and psychological effectiveness, but you started by saying that it is partially true.
I usually don't deal with marketing, but with what I think is true. Your argument also suffers from a logical fallacy: you are making up your mind from two different sides: what those who are not Haredi say and what the Haredi say. It's like saying that a secular person is in trouble, because if he becomes Haredi, his secular friends will say he is an idiot, and if he remains secular, the Haredi will say he will inherit hell.
In short, propaganda considerations, even if they are true, don't really interest me.
Well, first of all, a small correction, I'm a girl. Secondly, I think that this emotional aspect, you would call it psychological/marketing. Ultimately, it is a very important component in the decision. If we were to proceed only according to ideologies and the legality of what is right and what is wrong, the situation probably wouldn't be like this because I believe that many Haredim don't buy these arguments, those who look reality in the eye. Therefore, I think that the solution, at least in part, is not only in the intellectual and cold aspect, but also in evoking a different social sheikh here who encourages this ideology. And going back to what you said that those who enlist are supposedly already "spoiled"; this is probably part of the sheikh and in my opinion it doesn't contribute to change if it already makes people less likely to enlist. Even those who are ideologically inclined have already changed something in their perception, which is a shame. Of course, this is only part of the picture. I'm sure there are other aspects that make the situation more complex, but in my opinion, we need to give it more weight because again, the solution is not only ideological but also social.
Sorry for the gender mistake. As mentioned, I'm not in the business of marketing. I write my opinion and everyone will do with it what they think/feel.
Here is an interview with Rabbi David Bloch Shalit”a
https://youtu.be/EF2u-PdCFjE
This is a problem that can be solved, for example in separate and relatively sterile battalions, if there is goodwill on both sides.
Realistically, this is not true. Ask all the members who enlist as part of the Hesder (and I am among them) whether they have experienced a spiritual decline. When you enlist with 20 other members like you, who work together with you to maintain character and deal with problems here and there that arise, you do not spiritually decline so quickly, certainly not to such a degree that "the people of Israel will necessarily be less Jewish", especially since after the service everyone returns to the yeshiva and continues to study Torah for another two years, which closes the small spiritual gap that existed in the army. I can say that in our country everyone who was God-fearing before enlisting remains so after enlisting. It is true that you study less Torah when you are in the army, but that does not make you less of a Jew, but rather a Jew who fulfills his duties to his people. In addition, the army itself has boundaries and orders that it must obey, such as the orders of proper integration, kosher matters, and more, and I understand that they are attentive to complaints, especially when it comes from an entire platoon of religious people. If you wanted to take up the gauntlet and enlist in an organized framework of Haredi Seder yeshivas like those that exist in the national religious community, where good young men from good families come there and not from Avniks to begin with, you would be able to see that it is not as she screams.
Volunteering versus obligation – And if they impose a national service law on Zaka and all sorts of things, will it help? Of course not. The obligation is not the main point.
Regarding the economic burden, there is very interesting data that segments voting at the ballot box and economic cluster, in which it is clearly seen that the economy simply relies on opposition voters in a very clear way, when in reality this coalition is looting their taxes for corrupt purposes that will seriously harm the GDP.
https://www.davar1.co.il/407506/
I am writing this as a religious Zionist (more precisely, a graduate of religious Zionism). Even if we assume that you believe in selective data selection (almost certainly), the reality is much more complicated. If the economy still needs people who work for low wages and without them it cannot move, you cannot calculate taxes in relation to the economic burden. Without the Thais who work in agriculture (or anywhere else in the world), the high-techists in Tel Aviv cannot think of anything. If a machine is missing a screw and therefore does not work, then without it the other parts of which it is composed have no value. And without the periphery there is no settlement, no state, and no security. This attempt to separate security from the economy is part of the superficiality prevalent among journalists and their flocks of followers. In short, there is no such thing as "sharing the economic burden." There is a sharing in the burden. And the economy relies on the non-ultra-Orthodox opposition voters (and quite a few Haredim as well (half of Shas voters are working people). And besides, the extreme left voters mostly work in unproductive professions, not to mention anti-productive professions (producing fantasies and selling stories). Lawyers and legal professionals, artists, actors, advertisers, marketing and sales people, journalists, media and television people, academics in the humanities. The creatures who sit in the departments of gender “sciences”. Thousands of civil servants who create jobs for themselves, and many, many more progressive religious figures, engineers of consciousness of various kinds, who manage the rest of the stupid and self-aware opposition voters. In short, sell this nonsense to someone else. In short, the opposition voters are an economic bluff. Just because they have a lot of shekels in their bank accounts doesn’t mean they are really contributing to the advancement of the world. Especially when they are people who don’t have No idea why they exist and that's why they actually live like animals. You'll also come up with claims against farmers who plow with oxen and raise sheep that they are looting their cattle and sheep.
Father, it is clear that the great men of Israel know, they have the Holy Spirit.
The problem is that they are not even ashamed of it.
See here in the link: https://fb.watch/qs35b9TlE8/
There was a Haredi guru who claimed that truth is not some ‘objective’ truth, but that which serves the will of God is the truth. Therefore, Jacob did not deceive.
Therefore, everyone speaks the truth.
Rabbi Dessler wrote that if you lie for the sake of peace or for a just cause, it is not a lie but the truth. These word games never spoke to me. They are even morally harmful, and certainly not true.
And of course, these things are completely unfounded, because everyone is out for the mitzvah war of the municipal elections, from the shababnik to the silk avrab.
This is not entirely a play on words. In the Bible, the word truth indicates stability and something that lasts over time (probably its root עמן א.מן alternates with ע.מד). It seems that if you simply told someone a story of his imagination and not in order to obtain something from him by deception, they would not say about you that you ”lied” or did not tell the truth, but that you played or that you are a fool. Lies and truth are more in the context of promises to do something in the future or past or present claims that the person to whom they are said relies (stands) on in relation to important decisions – financial, etc.
Also in Chazal it is written that it is permissible to change three things or that it is permissible to change for the sake of peace. And it is not written that it is permissible to lie. And this is not because of a play on words but because that was their language. The word truth has undergone a certain evolution from the biblical period to the meaning it indicates in our time. I have no idea if this is what Rabbi Dessler meant, but since in his mind he lived in the Hebrew of the Rishonim and Aharonim periods (although he certainly spoke modern Hebrew as well. The question is, what Hebrew did he grow up with) – which is an intermediate stage between Mishnah Hebrew and modern Hebrew – this is where he came up with this thing that sounds ridiculous to a modern ear. In any case, I think that the intention is that which contributes to the stability of the world and society (meaning that after a long time if we were to ask him if we changed the truth when we told him, he would thank us for it and say that we did the right thing) that is, it is from the long-term truth. In contrast to a lie, which is simply not true for any period of time.
For example, even in our Hebrew, if a terrorist (or just a criminal) tries to break into your house and you tell him stories from the other side of the door to buy time until help arrives, no one will say that you ”lied to him”. This is not just a random term.
Over the years, I have come to understand that the story with Jacob is also complicated and we need to think about what happened there. After all, after the act of deceit was revealed to Isaac, he was supposed to curse Jacob, and on the contrary, he blessed him when he sent him to Laban's house. Maybe it's just because he said, "Your name is cursed and your name is blessed." It's strange. Jacob is also not so bothered by the act of deceit more than that it will be revealed by his father and he will be in his eyes a ”deceiver” and then he will receive a curse and not a blessing. And he calms down and is content when his mother tells him that the curse will come on her instead of on him. In their world, a curse or a blessing (especially from the mouth of a righteous man, but also from the mouth of an ordinary person) was something very real. And this is the same Jacob who is said by Laban to be the most honest man there is.
In short, you have to grow up after high school. That's why you have to study the Bible.
Why do you think we are children and you are an adult?
Guess why. I'm talking about maturity in understanding the Bible and its language.
In any case, it is better not to use expressions that nullify the person you are talking to.
Say that I understood the Bible, so this and that, and convince us.
If you convince, that's good, and if not, maybe you will be convinced.
Rabbi Michi
We would be happy to read your words and other opinions, but to fund Haaretz?
I didn't understand.
You referred to articles in Haaretz that are only open to subscribers. Not everyone is willing to finance Eitan Haaretz by purchasing a subscription.
As far as I remember, I only referred to open articles. I don't have a subscription either.
In the 19th century, the duty of an Israeli citizen to “bear the burden of the public” requires him not only to assist in security and the economy, but also to fulfill the spiritual destiny of the people of Israel to make the Torah known in the world.
Some fulfill their Torah duty by setting daily and weekly times for study and assisting the Zebulun in the observance of Torah, there are “reserve” servants on “holidays” and so on, and there are “permanent members” Those who study the Torah day and night, who reap the fruits of their labor and innovations in their Torah, are their brothers who do not have time for thorough and in-depth study.
Our duty as a people to make the Torah known in all spheres of life, including the army, the economy, medicine and science, creates a need for people who are full of Torah, whose Torah will leave its mark and breathe life into the lives of those in action.
Unfortunately, in the secular world, there is growing opposition to the "religionization" of the military, to the point where a well-known general speaks of the need to "re-educate" the Torah scholars in the army, and others wage illusory struggles to include women in combat units, while creating endless problems in the areas of modesty and modesty.
If someone wants to bring the Haredi public into military life, they should extinguish the flames of hatred and contempt for the Torah-observant public, and at the same time take steps to build trust so that every Haredi mother knows that she is entrusting her sons to good hands, hands that respect and honor their heritage and Torah. Trust is built through respect.
Best regards, Fishel
The relationship between performing a mitzvah and studying Torah is explained in the Responsorial Psalm of the Lord, 18: “Talmud Torah is equal to all the mitzvot.” Before him, performing a mitzvah was a matter of law: If the mitzvah can be performed by others, he should not cancel his study; if it cannot be performed by others, he should perform the mitzvah and return to his study.
A situation where “everyone goes out” is found mainly in times of war and not in normal times. Therefore, it can be a situation where a person studies for many years in a yeshiva, but prepares himself for several months of service ('stage B' or 'central arrangement', etc.), at the end of which he is integrated into the reserve system, and thus he is able to both study Torah and go on a 'mitzvah war'.
When relationships of trust are built between the military authorities and the Haredi Torah world, such frameworks can also be built in the Haredi public, with a real promise that after performing the mitzvah, he will 'return to the Talmud'.
With greetings, Fishel
Such frameworks (Shelb B or Hesder Merkaz, etc.), in addition to training for reserve service and emergencies without the need for a prolonged absence from the yeshiva, also contribute to the economic well-being of the Torah-observant public, as they pave the way for integration into gainful employment.
This is all the more true for frameworks such as Shechari, in which the army trains its servicemen for a profession required by the army that also has civilian employment prospects.
Such frameworks also provide a response to an internal need of Haredi society, which, by its very nature, also needs Zebulun.
And the more things are done wisely and patiently, and not with hatred and coercion that create antagonism, they have a good chance of succeeding in the long term. Israel's redemption is also coming ‘slowly’, and postponing the end is likely to further distance it.
With greetings, Fish”l
Let's not forget that some of the instigators of the ’equality of burden’ campaign are not really interested in the Haredim in the army, but rather want to build themselves politically from the public's agitation against ‘those who evade the public purse’. The Haredim will be accused of not being in the army and the religious-nationalists of bringing religious and nationalist ‘radicalization’ to the army’
About Haredi Seder yeshivas, see the article "Haredi for their future" on the "Channel 7" website.
And for the sake of the ‘principle of equality’ and to dissuade those who do not see Torah study as a national calling, it can be proposed that two or three years of Jewish studies, even outside of a religious framework – be considered a year of service in the army.
The logic is that knowing the heritage of one's people will enhance the soldier's motivation. The more a soldier believes in the righteousness of his path – the more strongly and fiercely he will fight to protect his people and country.
Enhancing knowledge of the people's heritage – is enhancing his confidence! Although there will be fewer soldiers in the regular army, on ’order day’ more will be called to the flag and fight with greater determination!
Best regards, Fish”
For information on training Haredim to work in the Shin Bet, see the article on “Maalot 6” on the “National Civil Service” website.
Best regards, Fishel
In the 2nd ed. in the 2nd ed.
On the contribution of the Haredim to the Israeli economy, see Leo Dee's article, "The Haredim: One of the Most Efficient Sectors for the Israeli Economy," on the Makor Rishon website.
Best regards, Fishel
Now, a plan conceived by Central Command Major General Yehuda Fox has been announced to replace some of the military forces dedicated to protecting Judea and Samaria with Haredi soldiers who will be recruited into a non-military security framework and trained to be “Kiryata guards,” while freeing up soldiers for more combative missions.
I have high hopes for this initiative, which comes from a senior military official who shows a genuine interest in utilizing the potential of Torah scholars to help defend the people and the country in a way that does not harm the Haredi way of life (and on the other hand does not oblige the military to “religion” and “exclusion of women”).
As a former yeshiva member, Major General Fox also understands the “head” of the The Haredi, and perhaps he will find ways to reach the hearts of Torah scholars to agree to his proposals. Even the ‘righteousness of his ancestors’ as the son of the great educator, Rabbi David Fox – will be of help to him.
With best wishes, Fish”l
Regarding the Maimonides' words about the Levites not waging war, see Rabbi Yigal Kaminetzky's article, "The Levites and those whose Torah is their art are exempt from military service," on the Torah Institute and the Asif website.
Among other things, Rabbi Kaminetzky cites the explanation of the Gerizim that the Levites go to war when there are not enough other warriors, the words of the Netziv that the Levites go to war to be "supporters of war," and the words of Rabbi Kanievsky that even though they are not obligated, the Levites are allowed to volunteer.
Yes, he brings the explanation of Rabbi Kook, who said, "They do not wage war"; meaning a war of one of the tribes to conquer its territory, but in a war of commandment of all Israel, such a war is the "work of God" that the Levites, who are set apart to "work God," should be at the head of!
With greetings, Fishel Halevi
As a former Haredi, the grandson of two grandfathers who served in the army and one was disabled in the IDF on Yom Kippur. I understand the anger/disgust towards the opaqueness and undisguised pride that exists in this public. I don't live in Israel, but I will educate my children to serve in the IDF.
But I don't know if I would lead the Haredi public to serve in the IDF due to several concerns:
1. There is a ruling junta in the army and only people from the right side are truly making progress there. Everyone else is pushed aside, see Ofer Winter and his ilk. From this I come to the conclusion/concern, does the IDF really serve the people of Israel with the ultimate goal or American interests? Then it's great that there is a force that is an anarchist Jew who will always preserve the Jewish identity even if the State of Israel is destroyed.
2. Do we want a Haredi IDF?
There will never be a shortage of excuses, there was always the fear of falling for a woman of good looks, and Ramban's words about the sanctity of the camp.
I'm not trying to make excuses, I think that maybe it's really an asset and a benefit that the people of Israel will have, a 'saving leg', on the one hand, the country in the hope that it will truly achieve independence, on the other hand if everything gets messed up, and as we see now, we are far from true independence. The Americans hold us very tightly, the State of Israel is committed to a Western moral system that does not necessarily serve the people of Israel. It may be good to have a society that is opaque and not part of the Jewish-Israeli discourse at all, we call them the Jewish sperm bank. But it can definitely be said that they do not actually practice their Judaism. And do not contribute to the people of Israel
Conspiracy theories are a dime a dozen. Just think about the promotion in yeshiva and ask yourself if it is always done in a businesslike manner. I think in the army it is much more businesslike, although we are all human.
The IDF is a reflection of those who serve in it. That is what will determine its character and that is how it should be.
In the army, you at least have to make an effort until you reach a senior rank, in human systems, sometimes it's enough to be born into the right family.
Well, really. This is a real denial. This is not a conspiracy theory. This is a simple truth. For decades they have only appointed people who are similar to them, regardless of the composition of the soldiers in the army. The IDF is, in a nutshell, not a reflection of those who serve in it. And that is also the heart of the matter. This is simply not the country of someone who is not from the left. Right-wingers will not fight against crazy Jews. They have no strength or motivation for that.
Rabbi Mordechai Neugerschel wriggles for 40 minutes to explain the “Torah protects etc.”. Despite his sharpness, he fails to convince. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjoQWNPamLo
Here in the last 2 minutes Yaron Yadan on the morality of the Haredim https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cITGJLBScM&list=PLzSV8q4a7WomKY07XQIpSfSvDrM2HMDpk&index=25&t=666s
In the 19th century, the Jewish people were divided into two parts:
To Rafi, greetings,
History teaches that the Torah is what sustains the people of Israel. Great empires with mighty armies have risen and fallen, while the people of Israel have endured for more than three thousand years, even though most of the time the Jewish people were without a kingdom and without an army, scattered, scattered, and persecuted. The Torah is what stood for us to maintain our existence.
A strong army helps fulfill the commandment of conquering the land and Israel's help is immediate, but "you need a plain": rebellion and military power without spiritual strength degenerates and disintegrates. Even kingdoms that began with great faith and devotion to the Torah, such as the kingdoms of David and Solomon and the Hasmonean kingdoms, declined and disintegrated after a few decades because spiritual strength was lost.
A state and an army maintain national existence and honor when they find a connection to the Torah. The body and soul must work together.
With greetings, Fishel
There is no one-generation medical great who would say that society has gone too far. We don't work, we don't serve, and yet we say that we are protecting the people of Israel.
Indeed, the Chazva said that anyone who does not study in a yeshiva is not allowed to register as a yeshiva student. The deferral from the army is intended only for those who truly “learn his Torah and his art.” He will study the pamphlet “The Ways of a Man,” the practices of the Chazva that his student R. Aharon Yeshaya Rotter (at the beginning of his book ‘Shaarei Aharon’ on O”H.
In the 1960s and 1970s, the ’Nachal Haredi’ was established with the blessing and encouragement of Torah luminaries to provide a solution for young Haredi men who enlist in the IDF. There was and still is a ‘Shelve B’ framework, in which young men who studied for years in yeshivahs are enlisted for a few months and are integrated into the reserve system. Today, there are already ‘Haredi Seder Yeshivahs’ (see the article ‘Haredim Le'Atid'am’, on the ‘Channel 7’ website).
A strong and well-established Torah world – can contribute its part Light up the army!
Best regards, Fish”l
The truth is that this is a response to an article. It is not possible to respond to an article, so it turns out I responded to you, anyway, thanks for replying.
I disagree with almost every paragraph of what you wrote, and if your answer is to go back to Hazon Ish to say that ”he who does not study will enlist”, then the situation of the Haredim is worse than I thought.
The positions of rabbis and poskim (not from the ’Haredi’ sector) on the matter of ‘deferral of military service for yeshiva students’, such as Herzl Kook and Rabbi Chaim David Halevi – in my responses on behalf of ‘Eye of the Reader’ to Rabbi Michael Avraham's article, ‘Elections for the Rabbinate and the Haredi Demonstration’, on the ‘Mosaf Shabbat – Makor Rishon’ website.
Best regards, Fish–
There is also the claim of “a thousand below” that every warrior needs 1000 yeshiva students or any other imaginary number of Torah students.
After all, Rabbi Akiva had 24 thousand students and according to Rav Sharira Gaon they died in the Bar Kochba War, in which Rabbi Akiva was his armor bearer. And if that is the case, where are 1000 students for every soldier of Rabbi Akiva.
Ostensibly, only 24 soldiers had to fight against 24,000 students, but I doubt if this actually happened in practice. And if we assume that this was indeed the case, perhaps this is a good reason for the failure of the war.
To paraphrase Churchill's words that the best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter, then the best argument against the myth that Gemara studies sharpen the mind is a five-minute conversation with the average Haredi.
But anyone familiar with Haredi society should not be surprised.
Although this lifestyle was developed and perfected mainly in the Lithuanian public, it has infiltrated other groups, even if it is not expressed there as blatantly.
From the dawn of his life, the average Lithuanian child is educated to a life of parasitism and reliance on others, and this has absolutely nothing to do with secularism. A large Haredi yeshiva is a washed-up name for a summer camp. If a Haredi boy wants to spend his election days in complete idleness, there is no factor that will prevent him from doing so.
Until a few years ago, Lithuanian ultra-Orthodox society educated 20-somethings who had never worked a day in their lives, and it is doubtful that they would have held a single shift at a phone booth in a mall in Nahariya to demand apartments in central Jerusalem and Bnei Brak as a condition for a meeting.
People died because of these things, not as a metaphor.
The average Lithuanian kollel avrech who speaks with pathos about the hacks in the army (of course, he was never in the army, but he is a regular reader of conspiracy pamphlets, next to which The Protocols of the Elders of Zion seems like a rather pleasant and coherent book) sends his wife without batting an eyelid to work at Microsoft or Google or some government office, a place infested with terrible and terrible secularists, but the main thing is that in the end she brings home a good salary and there, for some reason, there is no fear of spoiling the innocent and pure daughter of Jacob or of being rejected because of the salary at the end of the month.
The coronavirus has proven that this is not a recruitment drive and it is not a fear of being a starter, it is simply a mentality that will always find an excuse not to bear the burden with the rest of society. If this society had at least a little decency to give up the welfare budgets it takes, we could still live with it. But don't make fun of them, you idiots.
In the 2nd year of the Torah,
Layati – Shalom Rav,
A. I do not know the Lithuanian Torah world from the inside, but Lithuanian yeshivas and kollels have a good reputation as places where people invest and study Torah diligently, in depth and at a high level.
B. To the extent that there is a concern about secularization or a chilling influence in a secular workplace – this is not similar to the concerns that exist in the army. You arrive at a workplace at an older age and after investing and are there for a few hours, at the end of which you return home. The concern is much greater when you are in a 24/7 mandatory and stressful environment. A workplace can be left if you see that there are problems, while you cannot leave a military environment.
This is why the religious-national public agrees to ’national service’ but opposes the service of girls in a mandatory military environment. And even in the service of boys, there is an advantage in the ’order’ where one serves for a shorter period of time and in the company of Bnei Torah, and ’all of the island or maybe’.
With regards, Fish”l
In paragraph 2, line 2
… and after prior training, and are…
In the yeshiva, it is of the utmost importance that its students study Torah diligently and deepen their study. There are strict entrance exams, and there is a daily schedule that includes seders and lessons that cover all hours of the day, from morning until late at night. Unlike academic institutions, the educational staff has daily familiarity with and monitoring of their students' diligence and progress in studying, and the results committee.
Naturally, there are students who do not manage to achieve the required diligence. For them, there is a solution in the form of the ‘Ultra-Orthodox Nachal’ Founded in the 1950s by Torah scholars, and revived by Rabbi Yoel Schwartz, the late, about half a century ago.
Dana has a second-stage program that provides a solution for young men who have studied for many years in a yeshiva and want to enter the job market. They enlist for a few months and receive basic military training, after which they are integrated into the reserve force. This is what happened to the soldier who enlisted at the age of 29 for four months during which he underwent basic training and a combat medic course, and for 17 years he served in the reserve as a medic attached to armored and artillery units that operated in the army in Judea.
For the past nine years, ‘Haredi Heder Yeshivats’ have been renewed, with hundreds of students. See the Wikipedia entry ‘Derech Chaim – Haredi Heder Yeshivat’, in the article ‘Derech Chaim – Technological Haredi Heder Yeshivat’ on the Ministry of Defense website, and in the article ‘Haredim for Their Future’ on the Channel 7 website.
It is clear that trusting relations with the army would promote these processes, which also stem from an internal Haredi need to increase the number of ’Zevulunim’ in their society, but the attempts to change Haredi society by force and out of hatred and contempt.
When the Haredi sees the hatred and contempt poured out on the religious-nationalists who sacrifice their lives above and beyond to integrate into the army, and former champions speak of them as carriers of the virus of religiousization and radicalization, define them as "subhumans" and propose to provide them with a "re-education" in the army; "it is difficult for an "Urdu mother" to trust such officers.
With greetings, Fishl
Another possible direction for integrating Haredim was outlined for us by personal example by Mr. Yair Lapid. If a reporter in the "camp" is considered a servant of the nation, why should the share of someone who serves as a reporter in the "Haredi camp" be reduced? And similar? 🙂
Paragraph 5, line 3
… by force and out of hatred and contempt – lead to a retreat in the development of integration processes.
Fishel Habib,
A brief calculation shows that the total time that his honor served in the IDF is about half the minimum service time of a female soldier. And a female soldier who did not sign a permanent contract or "women are equal to men" where his honor is equal to a third or a quarter of a woman.
Now that the IDF is pressed for resources and has recruited 40,000 Hebrew women in the reserves to help Israel from the oppressor who oppresses it, there is a situation where all the service that his honor contributed will only amount to a fifth of the contribution made by a Hebrew girl.
The question arises: is it appropriate for his honor to go out in men's clothing or is it appropriate for him to go out in women's clothing and leave the pants and weapons of war to the women?
In the name of the Lord, the Lord
To Gabriel, Greetings,
The compulsory conscription of women is a very problematic thing. Beyond the modesty problems that exist in the joint presence of women and men 24/7 in stressful situations and away from home, this is even more problematic when the presence together is in a binding framework that cannot be left if it is seen that things are not being conducted properly.
In combat units, it is not possible to integrate girls in real time, both because of the health risks of excessive exertion and because of the fear of falling into enemy captivity and the possibility of death and injury.
But even in administrative, technical, intelligence, medical, and other positions, women's contribution would be much more effective if they were employed as civilian workers who gain experience and specialization. Although they would have to be paid a salary, the efficiency would be greater.
Maj. Gen. (res.) Yitzhak Brik has already warned about the inefficiency of the army in recent years, as the number of soldiers has been increasing while combat units have been being reduced.
Best regards, Fishel
No one claimed otherwise.
My claim is that in the yeshiva world there is no supervision or any mandatory agenda, tests or meeting targets, and therefore there is nothing to stop anyone who wants to get away with it. Young men can not set foot in the beit midrash for months or even years and no one will say anything to them.
B. So why don't the Haredim establish some kind of arrangement that in your opinion overcomes the problems? Why was an initiative to establish a readiness class in Kiryat Sefer, something that was absolutely necessary due to the city's proximity to hostile villages, rejected with contempt?
A married Haredi man in his thirties cannot learn to shoot a weapon and serve in an readiness class with Haredim like him, where he could also break down? To the residents of Kiryat Sefer, it seems completely normal that a battalion of soldiers sits for three months and guards them while they don't lift a finger. Why? Because they (cautious generalization) have lived like this since they were young. A yeshiva young man is not required to clear the plate he eats with or even tidy his room, what are there Sudanese for? He gets an apartment from the Shevar, a living from his wife, support and discounts from the state or from benefactors from America, and every increase in the price of a bottle of sweet drink makes him as anxious as if he were a resident of Kibbutz Be'eri fighting terrorists who invaded his home. And if you ask, is everything you described the property of the Lithuanian public, what about Hasidim and Sephardim? Well, the Lithuanian sector is very dominant and sweeps after it the other two sectors in many aspects and for years the army is a symbol of some secular place that Haredim do not approach, but is it a secular place more than a thousand and one ultra-secular places that Haredim hang out in. Probably not, but a symbol is a symbol. In the end, I stand by my opinion that this is a mentality that will always be hung up on other excuses, and the coronavirus has proven this.
I am Haredi and identify with the anger and frustration over the Haredi evasion. On the other hand, I identify with the Haredi fear of being integrated into a secular army. Part of the national religious public dismisses this fear because in their eyes the price of spiritual decline is not such a terrible price, and part of it does not dismiss the fear but believes that the goal of building the state and the country is so lofty that it is worth the heavy price. The Haredi view vigorously opposes the opinion of the first part, and there is no need to explain why; and it is divided on the opinion of the second part because in their eyes, building the state and the country is not at the top of the scale of values. If they are faced with the choice between spiritual decline for the sake of building the country and emigrating abroad, they will undoubtedly prefer the second option.
My criticism of the Haredi approach is that in the current situation, where there are tens of thousands of young Haredi men of military age, there is no reason to create an independent Haredi framework that will contribute to the defense without jeopardizing spirituality (I assume that many Haredi men would join such a venture). The Haredi are clearly not trying to find a solution to the issue because they are unable to get down from the tree they have climbed for 75 years of the state's existence, and as long as they do not pay a price for not creating a solution to the problem, they have no motive to solve it. (Of course, there is the lame excuse that the Torah condemns, etc., but that is also because they do not pay a price for it. After all, in elections they will pay a price if they do not vote, which is permissible to cancel the Torah).
And here I come to a great surprise at the general public who does not simply try to solve the problem, by creating a fundamental change in the system, in a way that will replace the current socialist reality with simple and healthy capitalist logic. Instead of every resident of the country automatically receiving protection, and then arguments and quarrels about whether they contribute enough or not, protection should be treated like any other service: those who pay receive it, those who don't pay don't. In such a situation, the ultra-Orthodox would have to decide among themselves whether they are interested in the service or not (and I assume with a fairly high degree of confidence that they are), and all the idle discussions would simply be irrelevant, just as they are irrelevant to grocery shopping.
How will this be reflected in reality? How can you not protect an ultra-Orthodox person living in Tel Aviv? If a terrorist comes to his house, won't you send forces? (Unlike ultra-Orthodox communities there, it's easier to implement such an idea.)
Most Haredim are concentrated in certain localities and neighborhoods, so this is easy to implement in practice. Those who do not live in such an area can be given the option of either moving to a Haredi area, or paying for defense with money (or waiving budgets).
The idea is that instead of treating conscription as an ideological value that is debated philosophically, it should be made into a consumer product like any other, that those who pay for it get it and those who don't don't. This is actually the core of the problem with socialism, which distributes resources to everyone without distinction and then causes complaints about unfairness and inequality, etc. If you charge a fee for the product or service, all complaints are avoided - those who want it pay and those who don't don't, and the order of the argument is eliminated.
Quote from the article
You have never encountered a difficult subject that you have not been able to deal with and understand because of its difficulty. A subject in mathematics or physics that Rabbi Akiva Eiger has set is something at a child's level of difficulty compared to it.
I heard from you many years ago (in one of the lessons on the origins of Maimonides) that you can see from your reading of Rabbi Akiva Eiger's systems that he is a much better mathematician than you, so I don't understand why you decided to bring him up as an unsuccessful example in this flogging.
I don't remember saying that, but it's possible. Anyway, that's not relevant here.
First, just because he's better than me doesn't mean he's better than Einstein.
Second, complexity is not depth.
And third, this isn't a slur but a description of reality. And it's an excellent parable.
This is also an unsuccessful example, as the same one we meet with the Hagutshove says: from the head of the Hagutshover, three Einsteins can be carved, and from the surplus, 100 more educated people will remain.
These stories from Jesus are very typical of those who have never met Einstein and have not studied his teachings. This is part of the thesis that I opposed, which is naturally created within a bubble that those who live within it do not understand that they are in a bubble.
This is what someone from the world you came from said, since he met with Einstein and his teachings, that you glorify him, and they only bring him up as a "bad angel who reluctantly answers Amen"; It is clear that neither he nor Einstein and his gang interest me on a daily basis (as human beings). I was actually thinking now as I sat in the bathroom, (between responding to your response) what changed between Akiva and the people of the land that he tells after he left the Bnei Akiva, and became Rabbi Akiva, who when he was still there in the dark days, said, "Who will give me the blessing of a Haredi scholar and we will bite like a donkey (because his bite breaks bones, and not like the bite of a dog that does not break bones)?" How did something like this happen that changed his view by one hundred and eighty degrees and after he was burned, of course, no less, no more, became one of those who hated them? What caused this fascinating phenomenon? Agree with me that this is no longer a boring story, if you manage to decipher it for me, I will explain to you the answers to your claims above one by one as a kind of material.
Forget it - our former teacher and rabbi does not consistently excel…
This is not a bad thing in itself – and there is even a virtue in that
But the more unfortunate thing is that the rabbi is sometimes stuck on basic assumptions that he has decided are an axiom, and no wind in the world will move him from them
What is called – puts his mind in the cellar and refuses to even hear other opinions, on certain issues
In other words – Regarding the glorified criticality that our teacher and rabbi has preached all these years, we can say that he is a good demander and not a good implementer
“On the contrary, if you have an idea to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of the army, be respectful, enlist and cooperate to improve the situation.” – It doesn't seem like a serious argument. The enlistment of the Haredi public will not give them a foothold in the management of the army. The national religious public is enlisting en masse and its influence on the level of conduct is zero.
“Haredi armchair experts explain to us that there is actually no need for soldiers, and in general the IDF has a surplus” – I don't know what the Haredi armchair experts say, but the recruitment data and Yitzhak Brik's reports certainly say that. From 2000 to the present, recruitment cycles have increased by 40% and dozens of combat battalions have been cut.
There is the old Haredi community in Israel, regardless of the Zionist movement (and some are descendants of Jews who lived in the country before it). They opposed the establishment of the state, tried to reach agreements with the Arabs (the murder of De Haan). Demanding that they serve in the army would be unjust. They opposed Zionism and foresaw the Jewish-Arab conflict that would arise, and whoever caused the conflict will now demand that they sacrifice their lives for it.
The old settlement also doesn't take budgets from the state, doesn't vote in elections, and isn't being discussed in the discussion here, and no one will require them to enlist. Although they may have National Insurance, and I honestly have no idea why they're given that.
The justification for the demand not to take budgets will be when they are also exempted from taxes. Today, most of the people of the old settlement work and pay taxes.
Military service is also a tax. They will receive budgets, but not those that are specific to the Haredi sector. And besides, the vast majority of them probably work illegally.
This is a tax they should get rid of, just like someone who didn't own a TV was exempt from paying a TV license.
Most of them work in the white-collar jobs today, from religious jobs as slaughterers and kosher supervisors to general jobs as cashiers and truck drivers.
In that case, they should be given budgets (including budgets that are not special for the Haredim) only according to the amount of tax they collect and nothing more. But I don't think they will have any objection to that. I actually have respect for the Haredi community, that is, for people who don't take budgets from the state for yeshivas, etc. In general, I have never had any problem with the people of the old settlement (assuming they aren't deceiving me somewhere and I don't know that). I don't care that they burn flags and fast on Independence Day, etc. Zionism and the state are neither a religion nor a holy thing. They are only devices for the benefit of the people of Israel.
Without going into our context, this response makes me very sad. The old settlement has never existed but is largely based on immigrants who preceded ”Zionism” but they wanted to establish a Jewish settlement here and in fact were Zionists (although there are differences of opinion between them and most of what is called Zionism today). How did the old settlement become a refuge for a perception that alienates us from the rest of the people living in the country and accuses us of hating our enemies? This is what the immigrants aimed for with their dedication to immigration for the sake of the entire Jewish people? It is clear that it is easier to get along ”diplomatically” and through lobbying with the Arabs when the settlement is small and does not threaten anyone, but it was not clear to everyone that once the settlement grew significantly (which was the dream of these immigrants) it would not be possible to get along in ways that are appropriate for a small community?
The old settlement loved Zion and therefore immigrated to the Holy Land, but it was and remains an exile. You speak from a modern worldview, but we must not forget that this was a colonialist world at the time. The land was ruled by foreign powers, and those who immigrated here immigrated to be under their control, so the question of the number was irrelevant.
There were no Zionists in practice. They lived on the money from the distribution and there were no producers. I don't think that's what the Baal Shem Tov and the Graça intended when their students immigrated to Israel.
Hello, I am from the old town (I live in Jerusalem, Mea Shearim neighborhood) and we have been in the country for 7 generations, and I agree with Yitzhak's words (at 19:49). And in my opinion, this is a valid argument!
All this crazy discussion about the old settlement is irrelevant to us. My words were about politically organized Haredim. What is called the old settlement is a negligible minority (I don't know if they are one percent of all Haredim) that no one talks about. Who cares what a few strange people do on the fringes of the country?!
Beyond that, as far as I know, the vast majority of this negligible minority also definitely benefits from state/municipal services, such as medicine, roads, garbage, social security, and the like. Therefore, they also have to bear debts like everyone else. Even at the level of private individuals, it is a law that descends to the field of their neighbor, even if the one who does not have the authority pays for what he enjoys.
If they want to remain ex-territory, this requires some kind of agreement with the state. Unorganized groups do not have group rights. An individual who is within a territory that has the sovereignty of a state is supposed to obey its laws. This is the case all over the world. An individual cannot prevent sovereignty or veto it.
Apparently, the base of the old settlement is 5% of the Haredi population (in 2008, there were an estimated 7,000-9,000 families https://web.archive.org/web/20160303213841/http://www.peopleil.org/details.aspx?itemID=7728)
The old settlement has wider circles, such as the Brisk Yeshiva, which today has thousands of students and community members (most of whom are also not citizens), who have always identified with the anti-Zionist ideology.
Most of the old settlement and the annexed communities do not abstain from state budgets (from the extremists who will not go to the health insurance fund to the open-minded who will not take them to institutions).
Most of them pay taxes like every citizen and therefore should receive services from the state like every citizen.
They have no gratitude to the army because they opposed and oppose the state and the entire Jewish-Arab conflict would have been avoided without Zionism, so the army Total Dealing with the Problems Made by the State
A parable that I once told was about Reuben and Shimon who stood at the top of a tower and Shimon wanted to make fun of them and threw a stone at the head of Shechem, the neighborhood bully. Even though Shechem would go up and beat them both, it would be completely unfair to ask Reuben to fight Shechem. It is right that Shimon should go down and fight his war on Shechem without involving Reuben in his war.
Correction of error
Most residents of the old settlement and the annexed communities abstain from state budgets
Hello Rabbi,
I would love to know what the Rabbi says about a 'compromise', perhaps also a Raylit one
that Dov Halbertal suggests
here at the end of the video in the link
meaning if we don't succeed in recruiting Haredim at least
who will give up citizenship to vote and be elected/separation of religion from the state, etc.
Or is this another one of the Haredim's foolish arguments?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q8LhyajUKnQ&pp=ygU316LXqNeRINei150g16nXmSDXqdeY16jXnyDXm9eQ158gMTEg15LXmdeV16Eg15fXqNeT15nXnQ%3D%3D
This is foolishness in the sense of practicality. Clearly impractical.
Why really not? Why is this different from taxes that cannot be waived unless you give up your citizenship?
Question for Rabbi Mikhi
Do you think that the most complex Talmudic issues are not comparable to the more complex mathematical issues or are they simply two separate issues? Just because you are talented in one of them doesn't mean you will also be talented in the other? (Because later I saw that you are surprised at Talmudic geniuses with analytical skills who talk nonsense on other issues)
In my understanding, it's not a question of complexity but of depth and difficulty. In my personal opinion, math and physics are much harder, but it's always possible that it's because of my specific skills (mine are easier in Talmud than there). At the same time, it's pretty clear to me that talent in one doesn't necessarily lead to talent in the other, in both directions.
You come complaining about the details that in an existing incentive system, they try to maximize personal benefit, which is the definition of rationality in economics.
True. I have a recommendation for over-maximization: a career as a hired killer by night and a robber by day. Although there is some fear of being caught, a sophisticated person will definitely maximize his utility more in this way. Certainly if he establishes a party whose goal is to exempt him from punishment (guaranteeing a portion of the revenue to every voter). That is truly the maximum utility. Don't you have a problem with such a rational person? I do.
Bad comparison
Talking about people who don't directly or aggressively harm anyone
Just exploiting loopholes
More like tax planning than tax evasion
The post is based on a basic premise that is not a self-evident belief in itself, and that is that state institutions are legitimate and act on behalf of the people, and not institutions that are the type of robbers who took power by force. The people, in our case, in the Tal Law, enacted a conscription law that exempts some of the ultra-Orthodox from conscription in certain years and obliges others. A robber named the military establishment heard the High Court of Justice, even though it is not within its authority, and the High Court of Justice ruled, contrary to the people's decision, that the law is nullified because it is clear to any reasonable person that a criminal organization that collects patronage fees is not subject to the law of the kingdom of God and fulfills all the rest. Those who mock the rule and exclude themselves from the rule, they do not begin.
From a practical point of view, anyone who was in the army like me who was drafted into the reserves on Simchat Torah knows that the inefficiency of the army stems from the feeling of a monopoly of no law, no justice. As soon as the budgets arrived, the commanders simply squandered both the human capital and the budgeted capital. Free is free, without criticism. Media and public without accepting responsibility in complete defiance (that's why the soldiers are returning in Ornot)
And therefore it makes the most sense to come to the claim of your brothers who went to war and you will sit here if you give a certain degree of expression to the fact that this is a separate tribe with a separate unity like the tribes in the days of Joshua who were recruited when there was a real military need and even then there was a maintenance of a social framework for each tribe on the unity
What is not true in the current situation but of the Israel Defense Forces is re-education like the Kantianists' sect from an ideological perspective and fusion in a melting pot and not a real need for fighters The goal is declared and was included in the IDF code and is called today statehood (or extreme communism when it was more popular to say that) in its name the exiles from Gush Katif and other righteous Jewish settlements who essentially prevented the establishment of the Palestinian Hamas state with their presence, whose declared goal in the Hamas and Fatah charter is the destruction of the State of Israel And
It makes more sense to establish an ultra-Orthodox army for Israel that would be separate from the IDF and would provide a response to what the IDF fails to provide security for. There is such an initiative https://netsach-israel.org/
In the S”d 24 B”d P”d
For the holidays – Shalom Rav,
With the criticism that has a place on the conduct of the army – it is also reasonable to say that when you are on the inside you contribute to improving the situation, and ’face to face’ trust builds trust.
With greetings, Fish”l
And perhaps the solution to the crisis of trust in the leadership of the state and the army from various sectors, justified or not – will come in transforming the army into an army of volunteers. The Israeli people have a natural tendency to volunteer, which the S”d of the army will not diminish but rather increase. However, I think that the quality will increase when the mutual trust between the soldiers and the system increases.
And the action called the Tal Law is not extortion. That is, what a qualified institution that suits you does is standard and valid, and what is not is extortion.
These and all the rest are really futile arguments that are simply unnecessary to address.
I don't know enough about the Tal Law and maybe it has a dimension of swindling in a metaphorical way. In any case, externally, it was enacted legally and religiously, and for the most part in the Knesset as a temporary order. This was a reason for an internal moral defect. The High Court ruled that it was necessary to enact it. Until then, there was a Minister of Defense who simply exempted the Haredim from conscription, and this, in the opinion of the court, was not within his authority.
In my opinion, the law is unnecessary and it is good that it was repealed because it is not within the authority of the Supreme Court to intervene in security matters, because not everything is final and conclusive, and the Mossad was not authorized and established for this purpose. This is the answer I would expect the Chief of Staff and the Minister of Defense to answer.
But the defense establishment prefers to join hands with the High Court so that its leaders can continue their corrupt acts without being held accountable for their actions.
And the solution of a national military service that would take away the monopoly on conscription from the IDF sounds more moral to me.
In any case, the defense that has become The IDF, which merged the Etzel with the Etzel, so that the Etzel commanders became ordinary soldiers despite their rich combat experience, and shot the Etzel men (most of whom were more religious, more ultra-Orthodox, and more traditional) to death with the holy cannon (the Altalena affair), and made Suzon and established the Shin Bet (the Jewish branch of the Shin Bet) in order to hand over the members of the party that did not advocate socialism to the British intelligence service, as well as the refusal of pilots to bomb Iran and other places by order of the Likud government, and the filtering of the pilot course so that only people from a very conservative party would be accepted, and the encroachment of almost the entire IDF budget on airplanes is an appropriation by the IDF as their private party property, the plots of the security establishment against settlers who are not interested in a Palestinian state. And the arrests they are conducting with the court's puzzling approval
And this seems to me, at least superficially, as a clear act of robbery of the people's army from the people, which was established to provide security, and because it has no effective supervision over the use of resources, it leads to results that bring us many coffins to cemeteries, unfortunately.
My claims are not about the High Court, which has no real power, and I do not think that replacing the judges will solve the problem as they thought. The problem is not this or that law or this or that ruling.
But rather the security establishment's compliance with High Court rulings in order to divert the media's attention from their shortcomings. For example, an investigation was published that the budget for building the border fence on the Gaza border, the Wall Administration, was given to some officer and he used the money for other needs, such as building a nicer dining room for the soldiers who requested it. And in real time, the fence did not function as expected because it had loopholes and various deficiencies, even though many billions were invested in it, even though it was published. In the media, I'm sure the officer and the Chief of Staff won't be prosecuted for this.
There is a populist claim that was presented in the series Shabbanikim, but in my opinion there is a lot of truth in it: in one scene a yeshiva student is asked why he doesn't enlist and he answers: “If the army were Haredi, would you send your son there?”…..
This comes to express one claim that I think is impossible to deny, and that is the disintegration of Haredi society. After all, in the religious sector, the turnout for the question ranges from 20 or so percent to 50 or so percent in the light sectors. There is no doubt that joining the IDF has a bearing on this. What preserves a community is mainly differentiation, and the IDF today is a place that promotes very specific values and very specific key figures (ask Ofer Winter and his ilk). Especially a society that is based entirely on obedience and differentiation and a society of learners and thousands of nuances of dress code and the like, of which no trace will remain in the long term, and perhaps even the medium term. Now one can come and claim that they are still obligated to enlist, but one must take into account that this is not evasion because simply “they don't think the rules apply to them” but rather there is concern and fear for the continued existence of this society.
The Haredim have had enormous political power for decades; they were easily able to organize the intra-IDF conduct required of them, up to the establishment of a Haredi division with a strict halakhic code of conduct. Did they take any action in this direction? Did they fight for it a thousandth of what they fought for budgets (and tailoring the entire welfare system and public services in Israel to their own standards)? Absolutely nothing. If there is a problem of concern and fear for the continued existence of this society, even if for the sake of the matter we accept that a society that is unable to support itself from a security and economic perspective in the minimum required way still has a right to exist, then it is possible to seek and find and fix solutions to this concern and fear. In practice, this concern and fear serve mainly as a shield against criticism and the continuation of an intolerable situation.
They tried to do it with the Nachal and the Shahar, projects that failed miserably not only because of the Haredi society (one of the greatest of the Haredi generation led it) but because the army broke every promise imaginable. It has no partner, especially not with the progressive values that lead today's army.
I am not familiar with what the army violated and whether the other side (= the ultra-Orthodox recruits) met expectations before. I do know without a doubt that the ultra-Orthodox parties had strong enough political power to straighten out the army on these matters if it violated, and also to demand twice as many demands from it as they wanted. They would have needed much less political effort to do this than they currently invest in maintaining the non-conscription and preserving the economic support system. My conclusion is that it simply does not interest them and is convenient and acceptable to them that the (extreme) situation will remain exactly as it is now.
In addition, a public detailing of their demands from the army and the detailing of the matters in which the army did not comply or is not complying would be very beneficial to the ultra-Orthodox society in terms of “hasbara” and as far as I know, this did not happen. Therefore, my default assumption is that there are no strong claims there that should be accepted to one degree or another by many outside of ultra-Orthodox society, because if they were, they would be known.
Yossi, some of these claims are themselves populist. Most secularization does not stem from the army, but from people deciding to abandon it. It is very easy to pin everything on instincts and a desire for an easy life. Usually, the army is the place where people put into practice what they have thought of in the first place. Certainly among the Haredi. Furthermore, the data you present are biased in two directions: secularization among the Haredi is very large, far beyond what you think (today there are already quite well-founded estimates), and secularization among the non-Haredi public is smaller than they say. The difference is not that great today.
Beyond that, I clearly wrote that this is the main reason. You are just repeating what I said but declaring that your 'innovation' cannot be ignored.
But what can be done about it, this is still evasiveness, because it is not a justified reason. If there was a fear for someone's life, would they not go to the doctor because there are secular people in his waiting room and he might break down? Pico rejects these considerations. But the Haredim choose to be parasites and build themselves on the sacrifice of others who will save them.
Listen, I didn't study the Bible, so maybe I'm having trouble reading, but I went back to the column and I don't see where you touched on this point.
I'll start from the end, regarding Pikuach Nefesh, I said myself that maybe it's not a reason not to enlist, but you quoted Ilai Ofran (“I couldn't have phrased it better than him”) who presents it as an escape, as an evasion, and overall I came to present a position (whether right or not) that this is not the way things are and this is a very biased presentation of things. If in another 50 years the army will be based on Haredim, with Haredim values, and the secularists on the other hand want to preserve the values of liberalism and feminism and whatnot, it is likely that they too will refuse to enlist for these reasons of influence and conversion in the army, etc., etc. Actually, you don't have to go that far, we saw the campaign of refusal because of a change in the legal system that really has nothing to do with service in the IDF.
I know your opinion about people's decision-making, but there is a bottom line here - with the army, they are more open to the question. Because of passions, because of a framework or because of any other reason, if we see value in preserving the Jewish ember (after all, observing Halacha is all of Judaism according to you) and the Haredi society does this in the best way, then there is value in preserving this society, everything else is pointless philosophizing.
I was exposed to the data from Itzik Crombie (one of the greatest critics of the Haredi sector) and it turned out that the gaps are actually much larger than I thought, he brings the numbers I brought here above. Regarding the Haredi sector, I would be happy if you could show me a figure that comes close to this.
One last thing. I knew until today that entire companies in the IDF are being closed down because of unnecessary human resources. October 7th showed us otherwise, but it's strange to me that the solution to this is mass conscription again, when it's very possible that a war of this magnitude won't happen for decades and hundreds of thousands of combat supporters will waste their time in vain. It's possible to train fighters in a process similar to basic training and continue service in the form of reserves, sounds like a much more appropriate and correct solution for the dynamic situation and unknown future of the country, than to dismantle an entire company because of concerns about perhaps protecting lives.
It's not about the core, it's about activating the eyes. As for the other things, they add up to what I talked about in this column.
Listen, all kidding aside, I really don't see where you're dealing with the secularism argument here. I've been going over it over and over again. Open your eyes, Doctor.
Doctor is overqualified.
I directed you to column 609. Did you read there? I don't know what I should point to, that's all there is to it. Just read. I hope that's what you guys are learning.
Apologies. Here I only wrote that I wrote this, but I did not explicitly refer to column 609, which is the column that deals with this. The reference there was in another thread, and I got the threads mixed up. I'm sorry.
Okay, I read it. I think there is still a lack of accuracy there. Because there is a big difference between if the Haredim were to one day resign and say, "That's it, we won't enlist anymore because it doesn't suit us" and a situation where you want to change the status quo of 75 years and integrate Haredim into the IDF, then the Haredim have the right to say, "Okay, that's acceptable, but let's adapt it to our lifestyle first."
It is clear that the leaders of the sector are too closed off to any possibility of integration (including of youth who drop out for whom there is no excuse of Torah study and "Yiddishness"), but the principle of this approach is understandable in light of the history that preceded the entire issue of conscription in Israel.
In addition, most importantly, as I mentioned, a huge group recently threatened to take active action and not enlist in the IDF (in fact, even after they re-enlisted, they admit that everything depends on the reform, if it continues, they will indeed stop serving). So I think that the parasitism attributed to the Haredi public is valid for any group in the country that would act in exactly the same way if they were to touch a bird of prey - and here, as mentioned, we are talking about active refusal, not a continuation of the status quo and also about an issue that is not at all related to enlistment, they are simply using this weapon (literally) to impose their opinion on the general public. (I didn't see that you talked about it. Although it is possible that you addressed this in another column:)
I think both sides of the argument are right.
The Haredim, for their part, are not interested in solving the problem of receiving protection services without giving anything in return. From their perspective, this is not a problem because they are providing spiritual compensation, but they ignore the fact that this compensation is not acceptable to the service providers.
The state, for its part, is not interested in solving the problem by creating independent Haredi frameworks. It is only interested in the Haredi integrating into a framework that operates according to a secular worldview. The frequently heard demand for Haredi integration into Israeli society is parallel to the Arab demand that Israelis integrate into Arab society under Palestinian rule.
In short, both sides are not really interested in solving the problem and are only insisting on entrenching their position. In my opinion, there is no solution to this except dividing the country into separate autonomies, which would put an end to each side's futile attempts to impose its position on the other.
The Messiah is coming. Until then, what to do?
Why go to the Messiah? There are many who think it is a good idea, and it is being implemented in many other countries (the United States, Switzerland, Canada, the United Kingdom, and more). Many times the path to peace is through separation. That way, each one does not impose on the other and can implement their desires in their own independent autonomy.
But the chances of achieving this goal are so low in the socio-political situation in Israel that setting this goal alone is practically equivalent to not setting any goal at all. Therefore, it is certainly possible to set this utopian goal, as I believe it should be separated into autonomies, but until the autonomies come down from the sky, we need to make a concerted effort and work towards achievable goals, and to that end, I propose: ______________ and _____________ or _______________.
I'm actually interested in the experiences of Ono. I've also experienced several times that yeshiva students and avrechims are unable to read texts in their entirety.
For those who want a well-organized work done on this whole subject of his Torah, his art, and the source of the saying that their Torah protects more than the fighting force, here is a link that addresses every angle on the subject, including the sayings of the greats of the generations, but also of the Mizrahi rabbis of their generations, starting of course with the accumulations of Rabbi Kook himself in his view of who contributes more to victory on the front: the learner or the fighter, or the fighter and learner https://www.toratemetfreeware.com/online/f_05107.html#HtmpReportNum0007_L2