“Have We Truly Lost the Spirit?” – A Response to Rabbi Inbal’s Critique (Column 568)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
A few days ago, the website posted a response featuring Rabbi Inbal’s critique of my book, No One Rules the Spirit, under the title “Have We Truly Lost Control of the Spirit?” He has since suffered the loss of his wife, of blessed memory; I felt it would be inappropriate to respond in real time. I begin with condolences and the hope that he know sorrow no more.
Now I would like nevertheless to present my comments on his critique. I must say that I have read quite a few beautiful and insightful things he has written, and I greatly appreciate his talents and his extensive knowledge in Torah and beyond. I therefore approached his critique of my book with considerable curiosity. At times, however, I have sensed in the past that apologetics tends to deflect him from a straight path of reasoning, and in my view that is also what happens in this critique. Rabbi Inbal writes at the outset that he has not read other relevant materials and thus qualifies his review, but from several of his arguments it seems that relevant parts of the very book under review escaped him.
Preliminary Background
First, let me note that the book in question—the subject of his critique—is the second in a trilogy whose aim is to present a “lean” Judaism, that is, stripped of the (in my view) unreasonable accretions appended to it over the generations.
In the trilogy’s second book I carry out the main “diet” in Jewish theology. My core claim there is that there is no such animal as “Machshevet Yisrael” (“Jewish Thought”) as a binding field. There are reflections by various thinkers whose mothers happened to be Jewish; usually it’s a collection of their own speculations lacking clear sources, and thus there is no obligation to place trust in them (see for example here the question whether the Messiah can be a period rather than a person—how can anyone answer that seriously?! From where does he know?!). Underpinning the claim is the assumption that philosophies and ideas are to be judged by whether they are true or not; it is quite irrelevant whether their origin is Jewish or whether the person who said them carries any authority.
To clarify, I will devote the first part of this column to briefly laying out my positions on these points. In the column’s second part I will discuss Inbal’s criticisms. There, in the course of that discussion, I will complete further parts of the picture described in the first part. I will usually avoid links and references here, since everything is presented in my book in detail and systematically. My aim here is only to clarify matters and explain why the book addresses most of the difficulties raised in the critique.
Two Kinds of Authority
I distinguish between two kinds of authority: formal authority and substantive authority. Formal authority is granted to a person or institution simply by virtue of what it is. For example, the Knesset possesses legal authority and therefore one must obey its directives. This obligation is not based on the great wisdom of its members, nor on their always being correct. One must obey simply because they are members of the Knesset. That is, the institution’s authority arises from what it is.
Substantive authority is altogether different. A doctor instructs me to take a certain pill. I have no obligation to take it, but because I trust his knowledge I will likely take it. A physician has no formal authority by virtue of being a physician; there is no duty to obey doctors. But he does have substantive (expert) authority, for he is a professional who knows more than I do. That means I heed him because he is likely correct—unlike compliance with the Knesset’s laws, which is a formal duty unrelated to the correctness of what is said. To heed the doctor, unlike the legal example, I must be persuaded that he is right; that is not formal authority.
The Realm of Thought Usually Concerns Facts
We can now see why notions of authority in the realm of “Jewish Thought” are problematic, both formally and substantively. To explain this, a further preface: questions and principles in this realm generally concern facts. Consider questions like: Will the Messiah come or not? Is there providence—over whom and how? Is there a special “segulah” in the people of Israel? Was the entire Torah given from Heaven? Does God exist? Was Moses a prophet? Was he the greatest of them? And so on. All these are factual questions, even if the answers are not necessarily based on observation. A fact is either true or it is not; it is not a matter of opinions or perspectives.
This has two implications for our discussion: (A) Formal authority with respect to matters of thought (facts) is not even logically definable. (B) A person claiming in the realm of thought is usually offering mere conjectures (at least where the facts are not based on observation; the sources and their interpretation here are highly dubious). I will elaborate briefly.
Formal Authority About the Realm of Thought
Regarding formal authority, it is easy to see that with respect to facts it cannot exist. A simple logical-conceptual analysis shows that it cannot even be defined: formal authority about facts is an oxymoron.
We saw that formal authority means I must obey a directive regardless of what I think about its correctness. Such a demand can be raised about a halakhic directive: even if you think sorting is permitted on Shabbat, you must refrain because the Sanhedrin ruled it forbidden. Here I am not required to think it is permissible; I must carry out the Sanhedrin’s directive. There is no conceptual problem here—even if someone rejects this authority, that is a substantive dispute but not a conceptual problem in its definition. By contrast, regarding facts this cannot be conceptually defined. Consider a person who has concluded he does not believe the Messiah will come. How can one demand of him to believe this merely because some authoritative person or body said the Messiah will come? What is expected of him—that he recite it without believing it in his heart? That is of course possible, but that is not belief in the coming of the Messiah; it is lip movement, mumbling “I believe in the coming of the Messiah.” At most one can try to persuade him he is mistaken; if persuaded, he will of course accept that conclusion. One can even rely on the wisdom or supposed hidden sources of certain people or institutions to convince me they likely know what they are saying. But this is still acceptance by persuasion—and thus not formal authority. A formal-authority demand expects a person to accept even without being persuaded, and that is impossible vis-à-vis facts. One can command me to do something I think should not be done; one cannot command me to think what I do not think (unless I am persuaded I am mistaken). It is like demanding of someone sitting down to think that he is standing, or to think that a circle is a triangle. Here, by all accounts, one cannot say I must accept an order that “right is left.”
Note that this analysis applies even with respect to God Himself, and certainly with respect to the Torah, the Sages, or the Talmuds. If God or Rabbi Akiva command me to believe in the coming of the Messiah, that is an oxymoronic demand that cannot be fulfilled. Even if God knows everything and even if I assume He does not lie, that can at most persuade me that the Messiah will indeed come (i.e., that I am mistaken), and then I will accept it because I have been persuaded. But formal authority about facts means accepting it although I do not believe it—such a demand cannot issue even from God Himself, and of course not from Hazal or any other source.
Substantive Authority About the Realm of Thought
We have seen that formal authority cannot exist regarding thought (because it deals with facts). I would add that, given the picture above, it is also hard to accept substantive authority regarding matters of thought. Suppose an institution or a person makes a claim of thought. On what could it be based? We saw that this is a factual claim. I would therefore expect an observational basis. But as we have seen, while these are factual claims, they are not based on observation. Observation does not yield that God exists or supervises, nor that the Messiah will arrive.
The question of Israel’s “segulah” may seem an exception, for one might try to observe whether there are essential differences between Israel and the nations. But in my book I argued this too is impossible for three main reasons: (1) the concept is ill-defined (what difference would count as a “segulah” difference? There are differences between any two peoples, two persons, or two groups); (2) even if the concept were defined, empirically such a difference does not appear to exist—there are good and bad in every group and nation, and nothing seems essentially different about us; (3) even if we did discover an essential difference, there is no need to attribute it to “segulah” (an essential, genetic, or spiritual genetics). It could just as well be a cultural difference formed by baggage accumulated over generations.
Thus, in most matters of “Jewish Thought” we are dealing with factual claims that cannot be grounded in empirical observation, and therefore it is difficult to accept substantive (expert) authority about them. Of course there remains the possibility of adducing evidence for such a claim from the sources or from philosophical reasoning (itself based on non-sensory apprehension; see the series 155–160). By “sources” here I mean biblical sources, not Hazal; with respect to Hazal it is unclear whence they have information different from what I have. They were not prophets and drew their (sometimes mistaken) conclusions from their own reasoning—just like you and me. As for Scripture, that is of course possible, but in practice grounding theological principles in the Bible is generally quite dubious: people read out of the sources what they already thought beforehand. If one encounters a source that says the opposite of his prior view, he will interpret creatively and stick with his view. I will not re-enter this; I know it will annoy many readers, but the matter has been thoroughly hashed out on the site and, despite emphatic declarations from many, I have yet to encounter even a single genuine counterexample.
To preempt the usual claims that always arise here, I must clarify that I am not speaking about basic, broadly accepted points, such as the existence of God, of Abraham our father, the events of the Exodus and Sinai, and the like. Beyond the fact that even in these issues one can find different interpretations (and propose more, even if we have not yet found them), these are straightforward points, and at least today it is fairly clear that sources are not needed to teach them to us. In any case, my claim here does not concern such basic principles, but rather non-consensual, unknown, and non-obvious insights. Moreover, if we have been persuaded of God’s existence, then our conclusion is that this is a true fact for the nations as well—there are no “Jewish facts” versus non-Jewish ones.
I stress that my words also apply to Maimonides’ Principles of Faith. These are far from self-evident in my view, and their basis in the Torah is shaky. Even if one finds a basis in Hazal, for me that does not suffice. I ask about Hazal what I ask about any sage: how do they know this? If it is a tradition from Sinai—fine; I will accept it by virtue of the substantive authority of God or a prophet (for even they have no formal authority about facts). But if it is not a Sinaitic tradition but rather an interpretation of texts or a sevara (reasoned inference), I can do that too, and I do not see Hazal’s advantage over me. In halakhah I accept their interpretations, like those of the Sanhedrin, for there is substantive authority defined regarding norms (not necessarily because they are correct). But in matters of thought we are dealing with facts; here I do not accept their authority—neither substantive (because I do not think they possess expertise) nor formal (because it is undefined). As far as I can tell, they are not more expert in metaphysics than I or you (in many cases, I would say less), and therefore I do not see any substantive authority of theirs over such questions.
Interim Summary: From Lean Theology to Lean Judaism
Thus, the domain called “Machshevet Yisrael” does not truly exist. There is a collection of musings by different people; I may adopt from it what seems right to me and add ideas of my own—like anyone else. But the fact that something came from this or that sage is meaningless, and certainly irrelevant whether he was Jewish or not. Moreover, if it is true, then every non-Jew should accept it; if it is false, then even a Jew should not. There is the domain of philosophy and of science (facts), where claims are assessed by a true/false prism; there is no place for a domain like “Jewish Thought” (a field judged by who the thinker’s mother was).
It follows that what remains of Judaism after this pruning is halakhah, which deals with norms rather than facts. There is space for authority there, and there one also finds particularity (Jewish distinctiveness). Facts, if true, are true for everyone in the world, Jew or not (a non-Jew, too, should accept that the Messiah will come if that claim is true; and a Jew should reject it if it is not). Norms address those upon whom they are imposed, and halakhah addresses only Jews. A non-Jew can understand that according to halakhah one must redeem a firstborn donkey, but he himself is not obligated to redeem it, for the norm does not command him. Moral norms, of course, obligate all humanity, and facts by definition bind everyone, but religious norms need not. Thus, for example, some opinions hold that a Noahide is not warned against “shittuf” (association). Does that mean that if a gentile believes in shittuf he is correct? Certainly not. The fact is that God is one and has no partners; if that is a true fact, it is true for gentiles as well. Those views merely say that a gentile does not transgress a prohibition by holding such a view (to the extent that prohibitions regarding holding views exist at all—see below).
Finally, even halakhah undergoes a diet and flexibilization in the trilogy’s third book. There I point to non-binding elements that were added to it and to many possibilities for interpreting and changing it. Thus, having excised “Jewish Thought” and then slimmed and loosened halakhah as well, what remains is indeed rather limited—yet flexible and open to interpretation and change. This is the core of my position that Rabbi Inbal attacks. The halakhic “diet” is only in the background. His critique focuses on the second book—i.e., on “Jewish Thought”—and a bit on the seam between it and halakhah.
The Critique’s Claims: What Is “Judaism”?
He opens with the question driving his critique: can one dispense with Maimonides’ Principles and still be considered Orthodox? He immediately proceeds to ask: whence the need to be Orthodox? Anyone can define those who disagree with him as non-Orthodox, and it is difficult to reach consensus on the framework’s definition. In this context he brings my “swimsuit” parable. Suppose we have a tradition from our forefathers that one must go about in swimsuits; they lived in hot Africa, while we live in cold Scandinavia. One can speak of “literalist conservatism,” which holds that even in Scandinavia one must go about in swimsuits; but one can also define “midrashic conservatism,” according to which the preserved rule is that one must dress according to the climate, and therefore in Scandinavia the tradition obligates us to wear warm clothing. Inbal uses this parable to show that one can always define someone as Orthodox by a rule he constructs; therefore there is no agreed definition of Orthodoxy and, consequently, it is difficult to speak of an obligation to be Orthodox.
From here he argues that my creature has risen up against its maker: it follows that Judaism obligates nothing, and therefore there is no definition of who is a Jew or who is obligated by halakhah.[1] If every step can count as faithful to halakhah, then what is “faithfulness to halakhah” at all? Is it not an empty phrase?
Let me say at the outset that I have no intention of engaging the semantic-sociological question, “What is Orthodoxy?” For my part, everyone may define Orthodoxy as he wishes and exclude whomever he pleases. The substantive question is: what is obligation to halakhah and what ought to be included in it—i.e., who is acceptable in God’s eyes and who is not. I am not asking “what is Orthodoxy” but “what is Judaism.” That is not a semantic question—even though one can, of course, always redefine terms. As we will see, this question does not even coincide with who is right and who is wrong. We will now see why Inbal conflates categories and errs philosophically and logically.
The Conflation
Inbal fails to distinguish between facts and norms—surprising, since I devoted much effort to showing this is the basic foundation for all the claims he attacks.
Maimonides’ Principles belong to the realm of thought and thus deal with facts. Regarding those, I argued there is no need for any “midrashic conservatism,” since Maimonides, like anyone else, has no authority in such domains. Authority regarding facts is an oxymoron. What I think is what I think. “Jewish Thought” is what Jews think—i.e., the empty set. I will not enter the question how Inbal would treat disputes among the Rishonim about Maimonides’ Principles and whether, in his view, they fall within his non-empty Orthodox/Jewish framework. As noted, halakhic “rulings” in this area do not exist and are not even definable; thus one cannot claim that halakhah has been decided on such matters.
From what has been said, I indeed conclude that Judaism is defined by norms (halakhah) and not by facts (beliefs). Of course, there is a factual-theological substrate—God’s existence and the giving of the Torah—without which the commandments and their observance are meaningless. But someone who does not accept that substrate does not enter the Jewish framework because he cannot fulfill commandments (and even if he performs them, they are not commandments: commandments are instructions given to us by a commanding source). Such a person is not a “transgressor,” for failing to accept facts is not and cannot be an offense; but his “commandments” are not commandments. In this sense, he does not belong to the Jewish framework. The beliefs here function not as necessarily correct or binding by authority, but as necessary conditions for the very possibility of obeying the norms (the commandments). Below I will address the supposed halakhic obligation to hold certain beliefs, which seemingly turns factual beliefs into a halakhic duty.
So much for beliefs and facts. By contrast, the “swimsuit” parable speaks about norms—halakhah and only halakhah. That parable presupposes commitment to prior principles (something one can assume only regarding norms, not facts), for “midrashic conservatism” comes to justify a proposed new practice (wearing a coat) in the terms of that commitment. The parable shows that such commitment tolerates several interpretations—all deserving the title “conservative” (for our purposes: “committed to halakhah”). In short, Maimonides’ Principles are the subject of the trilogy’s second book, whereas the swimsuit parable belongs entirely to the third. Never the twain shall meet; conflating them mixes categories. Since our topic here is thought, not halakhah (remember, his critique addresses the second book), I will briefly explain why he is also mistaken in his criticism of halakhah—and then return to his main critique.
The Error
I never claimed that every argument and every proposal are legitimate, nor even that they deserve the title “conservative” (= committed to halakhah). Consider someone who says he will go naked in Scandinavia because, in his view, the principle to preserve is that one must wear a covering whose initial letter follows the place one lives: our forefathers in Africa (aleph) wore a bathing suit (beged-yam, bet), hence we in Scandinavia (samekh) must go ‘erom (ayin). This nonsense is not “midrashic conservatism” but muddle. It is devoid of logic; to equate it with the reasonable interpretation (even if one insists on distancing oneself from reason) of “clothing appropriate to the climate” is mere demagoguery. You see that, even on my view, there is a framework to Judaism and there are those who do not fall within it. Inbal’s inference from my words that there is no framework and Judaism is emptied of content simply assumes that every logically valid argument is acceptable.
Incidentally, what I am saying is self-evident, and I cannot see how one can argue otherwise unless he insists on ignoring halakhic facts. The history of halakhah up to our day is full of “midrashic-conservative” arguments like mine, from the greatest decisors. One who rejects such arguments creates a Judaism that never existed and does not exist today. My sole claim is that the gates of interpretation have not been locked—that there are quite a few possible readings and all may count as conservative. I did not say, nor do I think, that every crazy proposal and every foolishness qualify as an interpretation. If someone engages in deception or simply errs in a matter explicitly ruled, he cannot be considered a “midrashic conservative.” He is a heretic or a Reformist in disguise. I expanded on this in my series (475–480) on Modern Orthodoxy; see especially the discussion of the difference between “midrashic conservative” and “Reformist” in column 478.
Ironically, Inbal’s ostensibly conservative claim adopts precisely the childish logic of postmodernism. Those folks, too, claim that every coherent argument is equivalent to every other coherent argument; therefore, there is no way to determine truth and falsehood or to prefer one position or value over another. For them, the aleph-bet argument for going naked in Scandinavia is equivalent to the argument for wearing a coat there, since both rely on (formally) valid reasoning. Their mistake is that even if there is no way to prove to someone that he is wrong—as long as he presents a coherent argument—that does not mean he is right. It may only mean that he is locked in error and cannot be persuaded otherwise. In my example, I assume even the person who offered that argument understands it is wrong and is merely babbling. In other words, there is a difference between the claim that nothing can be proved (except on the basis of assumptions that themselves are unprovable), and the claim that no statement is any truer than its negation.
As I have often explained (my books Shtei Agalot and Emet ve-Lo Yatziv are devoted to this point), the proper Zionist response to postmodern critique is the synthetic stance, not dogmatism. The way to respond is not to bring a proof that my position is certain; that plays on the postmodern field that identifies truth/acceptability with provability. One must point out the critic’s error and explain that I can adopt positions that are not certain if they are reasonable. Even if something is only 90% likely, for me it is acceptable or “true” (not with certainty) until shown otherwise.
Similarly, the alternative I propose to Inbal’s postmodernish critique is that anyone who advances a reasonable argument showing that the norm he proposes preserves the traditional value merits the honorable title “conservative.” That does not mean he is right, but it does mean he belongs to the legitimate domain. Whether he is right—that each of us will determine by his own reasoning. Exactly as we are accustomed to do in every halakhic dispute.
So we have a mistaken conservative and a correct conservative. But there are also those who are not conservative at all. Recall the example of going naked in Scandinavia: there, no conservative argument was made, only a pseudo-argument. In my view, anyone who advances a reasonable case for his proposal can be considered conservative. One who does not is Reformist or a heretic—even if he hides behind a pseudo-argument like the “naked in Scandinavia” one. Again, see column 478.
The Logical Error
To conclude this point: suppose my arguments do in fact entail that there is no agreed framework for religious, theological, or halakhic commitment. Why is that an argument against me? If my premises are correct and the conclusion indeed follows, then the conclusion is that Judaism is in fact empty (on that understanding). Unless you show which premise is wrong, I do not see your point as a critique of my position. At most you have pointed out that my arguments show Judaism to be empty. In other words, Inbal—even if he tries—will not succeed in presenting an Orthodox framework meeting his stringent demands (as we saw). Thus, his attack on me boomerangs back on him. He refuses to distinguish between arguments that hold water and pseudo-arguments that do not. He assumes that once one accepts an argument for changing halakhah, one must accept every argument or pseudo-argument. Yet the annals of halakhah are filled with such arguments. On his own terms, there is and cannot be a definable Orthodox framework—Judaism remains empty.
In the past he wrote me that, for him, the framework is “the words of earlier generations’ sages.” I will not enter the absurdity in that definition and its lack of logical basis. But what does “commitment to the sages of earlier generations” mean? Everything written before the 18th century? Or the 10th? There are disputes among sages. Does history decide who is wiser than whom and who has authority over whom? On what is that based? Where in the Torah—or anywhere—do we find such a criterion? Moreover, does Inbal not know of arguments by Aharonim who disputed Rishonim or interpretations that changed halakhah in light of changed circumstances? Is he a Karaite? Note: by his logic, if there are any such arguments at all, then every such argument is legitimate.
One More Puzzlement to End the First Part
At the end of his critique’s first section, Inbal concludes with this surprising paragraph:
Even if we grant that there is no formal argument that refutes “lean Judaism,” that does not make it legitimate (as we supposedly assume: if a certain view is not “heresy,” then it is legitimate). For by the same token, there is no formal argument refuting Conservative Judaism, or the Christianity of Jesus. “Lean Judaism” itself aspires to claim legitimacy—but if there is no formal argument by which one can invalidate anything at all, what meaning has that aspiration? It is not on the formal plane. “Lean Judaism” wants to be legitimate in Orthodoxy’s consciousness, to be no less equal, no less correct, no less consonant with the sincere will of the tradition-observant believer.
We have seen that Inbal’s weapons against me are mainly empty formalistic pilpul. And here, suddenly, I become the formalist and he attacks me in the name of common sense. Strange indeed. I must remind again that my claim was not “there is no formal argument refuting ‘lean Judaism.’” On the contrary, for me the entire discussion is about whether it is true, not about whether there is an argument that refutes it. The discussion is conducted wholly in the domain of common sense, not in the logical-formalist realm. Precisely for this reason I accept the “coat” argument but not the “nakedness” argument—even though formally both are valid and you will not be able to refute both. We saw above that he attacked me that, if one accepts my form of argument, Judaism is emptied of content; I explained that he is assuming formalism (that all formally valid arguments possess the same standing). It is odd that in this paragraph everything flips. An upside-down world I have seen.
Finally, I never claimed that my views are not “heresy,” if only because I do not accept that criterion. Labeling a position as “heresy” is, to me, a cheap substitute where arguments have run out. When there are no arguments, one pulls labels from a sleeve. I seek what is true, not what is “not heresy.” It is certainly possible that I am mistaken and have not hit upon the truth, but I do not see how anyone could understand from my words that my aim is to be considered “not a heretic.” I am not engaged in sociological classifications; I am not discussing whether my positions are Christianity, heresy, Orthodox Judaism, Reform, or Zen Buddhism. I claim one thing only: that my positions are true. That, and only that, I seek to show—whether or not I have succeeded.
Moreover, my “lean Judaism” does not seek to be “equally worthy,” nor “legitimate in the Orthodox’s consciousness” (which does not interest me in the least), nor even “consonant with the sincere will of the tradition-observant believer” (which interests me equally little). I surmise and understand that this is what Inbal’s Judaism seeks (he himself testifies so, hence he attacks me in the name of convention). The Judaism I speak of seeks to be consonant with the will of the Almighty—even if that does not accord with the views of any of its believers. That is all. I have never sought ratings, nor do I hang on the coattails of popularity and imagined authorities, but on common sense and conceptual, logical analysis. One can, of course, disagree about whether I have succeeded—but as to my aims, the picture seems quite clear. If my goal were to flatter certain believers’ views, the last thing I would do is deny the authority of every power in the universe and his wife, and certainly not go against convention. An upside-down world I have seen.
The Meaning of a Purpose-Driven Discussion
Having “proven” the absurdity of my outlook on the merits, Rabbi Inbal moves on to a teleological question:
In the end, the question is whether we desire the legitimacy and spread of the “lean” outlook, or not?
Before entering that discussion, I must say that the question does not interest me. Not only because I do not know who “we” are and why there is a collective voice here; perhaps So-and-so desires it and So-and-so does not. The phrasing smells of speaking in the name of the nation or the congregation of all believers—perhaps in the name of God Himself. I feel bound to contribute at least my two cents: at least I desire nothing. Neither to promote nor to impede the promotion of the “lean” outlook. Why? That brings me to the second point: because a teleological, interest-based discussion is irrelevant; it is a matter of taste.
For me, the only thing that matters here is whether the outlook is true or not. If it is true, it should be advanced even if you do not desire it; if not, it should not be advanced even if you do. Shifting to a teleological, outcome-oriented discussion is a move to an unprincipled plane—especially when it follows arguments as flimsy and confused on the principled plane as I have described.
But since in the second part of his critique—which ostensibly should be teleological—there also appear arguments on the merits, I will address those and ignore teleological and outcome-oriented questions.
The Question of Authority Regarding Facts: What Is “Minut”?
Inbal opens with an accurate summary of my view about the absence of authority regarding facts. He cites two main reasons I give: (1) authority was granted only for halakhic determinations (there is no authority in Aggadah); (2) authority about facts is a logical contradiction. I explained this in the first part of the column.
I am impressed that he is careful here to be precise—and that is good. He does not find in me a view that denies the existence of true beliefs. I too think there are true beliefs and untrue ones. My claim is that there are no binding beliefs—that is, there is no place for demanding that a person believe something factual (and hence no sanction for holding certain beliefs). More broadly, I argue there are no “Jewish beliefs.” True beliefs should be accepted even if their source is a non-Jew; false beliefs should be rejected even if they come from Moses our teacher. One can, in principle, define a conceptual framework: a “Jewish believer” is only one who believes in some set of facts {X, Y, Z…}, and anyone who deviates is not holding “Jewish belief.” But in my view that definition is not very interesting. One should still not impose sanctions on a person for his beliefs—even if they are, in your eyes, “non-Jewish,” and even if, in your eyes, they are false.
Still, it is clear that sometimes one must take beliefs into account when determining our relation to a person. Take, for example, the question whether to count in a minyan a Jew who does not believe in God or in the giving of the Torah and in prayer. I too agree there is no point in counting him—not as a sanction, but because the concept of prayer simply does not apply to him (in my view he is like a potted plant in the synagogue). Thus, beliefs can have consequences, but not punitive ones; and certainly there is no duty to believe. This is a definition that can also have halakhic ramifications (like inclusion in a minyan).
Inbal begins his critique by saying that these claims clash with Hazal’s halakhic rulings regarding a min and an apikoros, or one who separates himself from the community—for example, that such a person is not counted in a minyan, or the rule of moridin ve-lo ma’alin (“we bring him down and do not raise him”). He claims that Maimonides’ Principles are an interpretation of those halakhic rulings; thus we are dealing with rejection of halakhic authority, not merely of factual authority. He adds that although Maimonides’ Principles are disputed (both in substance and in how far from the “correct” beliefs one must be to be deemed an apikoros), the principle that there are correct beliefs and that one who deviates is a min is agreed upon. And, he says, that is a halakhic determination.
Where Does He Err?
In several places. First, Inbal notes that I already answered these questions in the book. I wrote there that even if he is right, I have no way to fulfill such a halakhah. If I have concluded that the Messiah will not come, I cannot accept a demand to believe in his coming because there is a halakhic duty to do so. That is a logical conclusion and cannot be overridden by a thousand conclusive proofs from Hazal. Therefore arguments from Hazal are irrelevant when dealing with logic (as with facts).
Indeed, as he writes, in my view even if the laws of “minim” existed (and I do not think they do in the form he paints—see below), they are null, because they are based on false factual assumptions. Exactly as the laws permitting killing lice on Shabbat are null, being based on Hazal’s mistaken factual premise. I see no difference. Translating facts into the halakhic sphere does not change the underlying situation: there is not and cannot be authority regarding facts.
But beyond that, Inbal is simply wrong in claiming that the Talmud imposes halakhic sanctions on minim and apikorsim as people who hold certain beliefs because those are their reasoned conclusions. I am speaking of a min who holds certain views because that is where his inquiry led him. Such a person cannot be demanded anything, nor can sanctions be imposed upon him. I do not see how one can dispute this (I also cited halakhic sources that there is “coercion” in matters of belief, such as the well-known responsum of Radbaz). Hazal spoke of the “minim” they encountered, who adopted other beliefs due to desire. The “minim” we encounter today are usually different: they are people who reached different conclusions—usually wrong in my opinion too—but they are their conclusions. Toward such people there is and can be no claim, and I think Hazal—had they known this phenomenon (at least in its current magnitude)—would not have said such things about them. Certainly not the rule of moridin, which all contemporary poskim agree does not apply to such cases (tinok shenishba, no one who knows how to rebuke, etc.), and not even exclusion from a minyan. If a person knows to Whom we pray and believes in prayer, he is counted. Anything beyond that is sanction; but there are no sanctions upon a person for the beliefs he holds (unless he does not actually hold them, and adopts them only due to desire—le-ta’avon—or to provoke—le-hakh’is). I pointed out this distinction briefly here.
Not for nothing are the main categories in the Talmud here: le-ta’avon (out of appetite) or le-hakh’is (out of spite). Beyond that, we find tinok shenishba, who certainly is counted and upon whom there is no sanction—so long as he meets necessary requirements. Moreover, I have often written that for Hazal even a tinok shenishba is someone who, if he knew Torah and halakhah, would surely admit to everything and be fully obligated; he merely grew up in a different world and thus the truth is hidden from him—his deficiency is ignorance. In their world there is no such thing as a person who knows everything and, without desire, reaches other conclusions. In their Talmudic world every person understands that one must be a believer and fulfill mitzvot, but he sometimes grows up in a world where belief and mitzvot are different (Christianity, paganism, etc.). In our world there truly are people who simply do not believe—and that is their genuine conclusion. Even if they knew everything, they would not admit. Therefore, the modern atheist—i.e., a “transgressor” due to ideological/theological coercion—is far more distant from Hazal’s tinok shenishba than they imagined.
Inbal himself presents my explanation that these halakhot are null because their factual and logical basis is absent. That too is correct—but he ignores another claim of mine: that these halakhot are not null but simply do not exist regarding a person who holds different beliefs (erroneous in his inquiry). A person who understands what the truth is is not indicted for an intellectual mistake but for denying a truth he himself knows. Thus, the Talmud does not speak of minim and apikorsim who hold erroneous positions; it speaks of those who adopted such positions out of appetite or spite. They are not judged for holding wrong positions but for failing to hold right ones—or, more precisely, for denying truths they themselves know.
Therefore I am not only saying that these halakhot are null even if I accept Hazal’s authority in halakhah; I am saying they do not exist. Inbal simply errs in halakhah: there is no halakhic sanction upon one who holds erroneous beliefs. My words therefore do not contradict Hazal’s halakhic rulings (even though, as noted, even if they did, it would not matter—halakhot based on false facts are null).
What Is Judaism: Does It Have a Spiritual Message for the World?
After presenting the possibility that these halakhot are null due to their factual/logical basis (a correct but, for me, unnecessary claim), he rejects it because of a further difficulty. In his words:
But there is a much deeper problem. Hazal’s definition of “minut” is something opposed to Judaism; minim are as gentiles, a Sefer Torah they write must be burned. Abolishing all of this validates not only a specific “lean Judaism,” but all heresy. It abolishes Hazal’s principle that the Torah and Judaism have some spiritual statement about the world. A Torah that tells one to do a series of actions is meaningless—mere instructions for hand movements. The Torah is supposed to be the divine message to man about what happens in the world, what will happen, and man’s role in all this.
This does not validate all heresy. It merely says there is no way to demand someone return from it or to impose sanctions upon him. I do indeed agree that, on my approach, Judaism has no particularistic message for the world. Perhaps in the past it did—and even then very minimal: moral principles not then self-evident, belief in God, and the like. But not “principles of faith.” If these are true, then they are true for all humanity, not only Jews.
A Torah that instructs us in a series of actions is not at all meaningless—primarily because those actions bring about spiritual benefit of some kind. My claim that there are no binding theological principles does not mean there are no true principles; nor does it mean that halakhic actions lack a theological substrate. I only claim that we need not understand those meanings and benefits for the actions to have value. Indeed, in halakhah we do not require ta’ama de-kra; according to most interpreters, that means we are to perform these practices independently of their theological “explanation” (not because it is false, but because it is unnecessary for the spiritual ends). I also claim that all of Hazal’s and later sages’ proposals to understand the theological substrate of the commandments never rose above speculation (for they have no way of knowing). I see no problem with this stance, and certainly found none in Rabbi Inbal’s critique.
Yeshayahu Leibowitz always claimed the exact opposite of Inbal: that groups and individuals were not ejected from the legitimate framework because of beliefs, but only when they began to harm their halakhic commitment. His picture is somewhat extreme—as always—but there is certainly truth in it. It is nothing like Inbal’s opposite picture, according to which halakhic disputes do not trouble Hazal as much as disputes about belief. He makes an improper comparison. Lack of halakhic commitment troubles them far more than lack of theological commitment. Disputes do not greatly trouble them—neither here nor there. Even his example of Rabbi Hillel—who, ostensibly, denied the coming of the Messiah (Sanhedrin 99a)—if anything proves the opposite of what he seeks to prove. The Gemara says “May his Master forgive Rabbi Hillel,” but he is still called “Rabbi Hillel,” and his words are brought and discussed—unlike one who abandons halakhic commitment (such as Elisha ben Avuyah, “Aher”), who is treated far more severely. (Recall that the Sefer ha-Ikkarim learns from Rabbi Hillel precisely the lack of importance of “principles of faith.”)
Authority Regarding Facts
His critique of my stance on authority about facts shows that he writes without having read my words:
As for the claim that there is no authority regarding factual questions—it is entirely erroneous. Clearly, when a person is present to a fact, authority is meaningless. But when we do not know the facts, what we always do is turn to authority. The physician is an authority on the factual question of how to cure a disease; the engineer is an authority on the factual question of how much concrete is needed so the column will not collapse on our heads. The authority can err, and when it is clear that he errs we dismiss him. But certainly there is authority regarding factual questions. The judge in court determines whether So-and-so stole or murdered, and we act according to his determination of the facts, even though his determination derives from his authority; the judge did not necessarily bring definitive forensic proof. The reason is that this is the maximum we can do to ascertain the facts, and thus we rely on the one empowered to examine them.
After what we saw at the beginning of the column, it is unnecessary to say that he is speaking here about substantive authority, while I was speaking of formal authority. There is indeed substantive authority even about facts—but I explained above that this is not “authority” in the usual sense; certainly there is no demand upon a person to adopt facts from an expert by virtue of his status unless the person is persuaded the expert is right. This is a simple misunderstanding. It is strange and careless to miss so central a point, elaborated at length in my book, when writing a critique of it.
Conclusion
In three closing paragraphs, Inbal concludes. The first reads:
I am not troubled by the formal side; one can patch together a formula that will sustain “lean Judaism” without internal contradiction, let us say. But if so, why is it not selfish? What is the point of weaving a non-authentic Judaism that walks between the raindrops of obligation by flexible definitions? Just as the book’s preface describes young people who raise questions about religion’s logic and rationality and their rabbis have no answers—used as a push to institute “lean Judaism”—so now, no fewer young people from the “lean Judaism” community will face questions about the logic of accepting halakhot founded on a theology with no guarantee of truth, and of excising the central halakhah that defines the religion. Or at all whether it is a sincere and authentic interpretation to say that providence and prayer, which are central in the Bible, were once a reality but the Creator decided to stop them? And what will the rabbis of ‘lean Judaism’ answer them? Will they appease them with incoherent excuses? Or declare them wicked for having questions?
Here the mistake I explained above returns. I do not claim there are no ideas or theological substrate underlying the halakhot. I only claim that any statement about that substrate is an unbinding speculation and we have no way of knowing what it is. That is all. Moreover, at least in my sample, people are willing to accept positions for which they have no explanation, as long as it is clear that this is what is required of them and what God wants of them because it was given at Sinai. But they are unwilling to accept things that are untrue, unfounded, and patently illogical. If someone reaches the conclusion that he has no explanation for what he does and has no trust in it, offering belly-born speculations—by a wiser or less wise person—as principles of faith will not improve his condition. You must persuade him that it is true. Therefore, my not offering an explanation does not mean that a thesis offering crooked, unfounded “explanations” is preferable. As yeshiva students say, better to leave it be-tzerikh iyyun. What matters is that I be persuaded that these are indeed the acts God requires of me. That suffices for me to feel obligated to perform them. Lame and unpersuasive “explanations” as a basis for these acts will not change this one whit.
In the following paragraphs he concludes:
The idea of principles of faith is basic and necessary to every religion and every group. So long as people are in the gray zone, abstract principles are unnecessary; but when there is discussion of “what is Judaism,” or “what is Christianity,” or anything else, one must reach a definition. Just as it is clear that someone who accepts nothing of Judaism is not part of the Jewish religion, so it is clear that if he accepts one thing—say, refrains from eating pork—he will not be defined as faithful to the Jewish religion. Likewise, it is clear that one must set some minimal boundary. There is no meaning to a religion without a critical mass with a defined minimum—at least in Judaism, which is a religion of demands and not merely a source of inspiration. And this is exemplified by the claim that in theory one can take Judaism itself only as a source of inspiration, as the Reform do—and hence the counter-claim is understandable.
I am not here to determine exactly what Hazal’s “minut” is, and one can certainly debate details. What I am saying (if two of the generation’s greats will agree with me) is that there is such a thing as “minut,” and ‘lean Judaism’ must test itself accordingly: is it “minut” or not? And the claim that in the absence of a formal definition of heresy everything is legitimate licenses heresy and is therefore to be rejected.
You may, of course, define a conceptual framework as you wish. Above I explained that this is possible. I simply argue that it lacks content and meaning. The need for self-definition does not justify the acceptability or correctness of any definition. Moreover, my claim is that there is such a framework—halakhah. The theological contents are products of human minds; it is not fitting to use them to define the framework—certainly not if you wish to derive halakhic and practical conclusions, rather than merely a conceptual definition.
[1] For some reason, Gödel’s incompleteness theorem was thrown in here; it has nothing to do with the issue.
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In the end, “No man is master of the spirit” does not renew anything.
The whole book revolves around one thing that says “We do not see providence”.
The explanations for this are not satisfactory, of course.
And of course there is no shortage of secularists who have been saying the same things for thousands of years “So where is your God?”.
And also “Don't tell us stories about reincarnations and the accumulation of sins/commandments and hidden heavenly accounts, etc.”.
And as we know, there is no shortage of secular deists who completely believe in the philosophical God.
All the discussions that come after “it has been proven” that there is no providence and deal with “So why pray?” They are essentially pointless, because Miki has not actually proven or innovated anything on the subject of providence, and the truth is that he has not shown anything that is particularly surprising or thought-provoking.
So, for a religious person, the whole question of “So what should we pray for?” is like asking “What would happen if tomorrow morning mice and snails started speaking French and Chinese.
Completely meaningless.
So there is nothing new in Miki's arguments, and the very minor reference that must be made to the story anyway is also completely unnecessary.
Thank you for your enriching and uplifting words, rich in theological arguments and rich in content. May your strength be with you.
No, because writing a book of hundreds of pages with a bottom line of “I don't see it”, and that is actually philosophical and deep.
Oh, and of course with the crushing demonstrations of :
“Many read leaflets in synagogues while praying”
and –
“We all follow scientific research even though it clearly lacks the parameter of providence”
These demonstrations are a real knockout for the followers of providence.
What originality, audacity and creativity. I am thrilled.
Truly philosophy, wisdom, and depth at its best.
We are blessed that you continue to enrich us. May your strength be with you. Continue to break the hands and legs of the pokers and fools of the world.
Minai, the smallest of your thousands of admirers: Mikhi
And a theologian will be fat and kick.
But he will not be wise.
mozer Give your opinion on Michi's demonstration that even religious people deep down do not believe in providence, since it is known that they use drugs in the testing of which the parameter of providence was not taken into account along with the spiritual state of the person.
I think it can be improved even further, so I will follow Michi's line –
The fact that religious people do not go and jump off a cliff several hundred meters high shows that they do not believe in providence.
Because if they really believed in providence, they would jump knowing that God would perform a miracle and grow wings for them, instantly turning the ground into a giant, comfortable landing pad.
Helmush
How do you respond to the claim about taking the medicine?
L – H’
First, there is a lie in what Michi says, that almost all religious people ultimately do not really believe in providence, even if they are not really aware of it. Because the fact is that they act as if there is no providence in the world at all.
This is of course nonsense. There is no shortage of examples of religious/believing people (certainly compared to secular people) who act in spiritual ways and prefer the cry to God over another medicine, another medical opinion, or psychological treatment.
And in response to Michi's claim. Pay attention to my argument:
The vast majority of people who drink soft drinks want to end their lives with serious illnesses, and suffer from not easy torment.
How do I know?
Very simple – I think like Michi.
It is known from research that drinking a small amount (350 ml per day) of soft drinks leads to serious illnesses later on.
Almost all adults who drink cola know that ”Coca-Cola is poison” and yet they drink it. Conclusion: that they want to die from hellish torment and visits to doctors.
That's Miki's head.
And now seriously, to answer these nonsenses of Miki's:
Most people drink Coca-Cola (or Frigate or Fuse T) simply because it tastes good and is pleasant to them, even though they have heard about the studies.
And in our case:
Most religious people take medicine simply because they are suffering a lot right now, and the medicine can actually help them.
They have never been interested in or philosophized about Miki's nonsense and nonsense about “the parameter of righteousness is not found in the studies of the medicines, and therefore for those who believe in providence it is impossible to know absolutely whether the medicines help”.
Huh, what are you saying, dear God?
To – mozer’
First, there is a lie in what Michi says, that almost all religious people ultimately do not really believe in providence, even if they are not really aware of it. Because the fact is that they act as if there is no providence in the world at all.
This is of course nonsense. There is no shortage of examples of religious/believing people (certainly compared to secular people) who act in spiritual ways and prefer the cry to God over another medicine, another medical opinion, or psychological treatment.
And in response to Michi's claim. Pay attention to my argument:
The vast majority of people who drink soft drinks want to end their lives with serious illnesses, and suffer from not easy torment.
How do I know?
Very simple – I think like Michi.
It is scientifically known that drinking a small amount (350 ml per day) of soft drinks leads to serious illnesses later on.
Almost all adults who drink cola know that ”Coca-Cola is poison” and yet they drink it. Conclusion: They want to die from excruciating pain and visits to doctors.
This is Mikhi's head.
And now seriously, to answer Mikhi's nonsense:
Most people drink Coca-Cola (or Frigate or Fuse T) simply because it tastes good and is pleasant to them, even though they have heard about the studies.
And in our case:
Most religious people take medication simply because they are currently suffering greatly, and the medication can actually help them.
They were never interested in or philosophized about the nonsense and nonsense of Michi about the "parameter of righteousness that is not found in the studies of drugs, and therefore for those who believe in providence it is impossible to know absolutely whether the drugs help".
Huh, what do you say, dear mozer?
Hi
I have been trying to understand your claim for a long time that there is no such thing as Jewish thought. A philosophical field is defined, in my understanding, first and foremost by its content. Just as there is a feminist philosophy (sometimes very bad), a philosophy of science, or a philosophy of existence, there is also a philosophy of Judaism. Especially the one that comes from within and aims to explain and defend Judaism.
What is wrong with the picture I described?
It's hard for me to go on here. I went on in my book that is reviewed here. Of course, you can define a field of study or research as Jewish thought, but the accepted definitions don't hold water. You can define any engagement with issues like the Messiah of Redemption and Providence as Jewish thought. But when you get into the accepted positions and justifications, if the justifications are because it's written here or here, that's not acceptable to me as a justification. And if the justifications are general philosophies, then it's general philosophy and not Jewish thought. There is the thought of the son of a Jewish mother, an irrelevant and uninteresting category, but in my opinion there is no Jewish thought.
All thought takes its name from the nation from which it comes, I think. And is there anything Chinese in Chinese thought? These are ideas that were conceived by the Chinese. The same goes for Greek, Taoist philosophy, and other spiritual content. If a Gentile engages in the thought of the Rambam for that matter, then he is indeed engaged in Jewish thought, and if a Jew engages in Greek philosophy, then that is indeed what he is engaged in - and the content will not change because the person engaging in it is from another nation.
Okay, so go and study Belgian or Zimbabwean philosophy. I said you can define whatever you want, including the definition that any philosophy of a son of a Jewish mother is Israeli thought. You can also define that the study of bee wings is Israeli thought.
I have difficulty understanding the principled methodological distinction you make between “Israeli thought” and other bodies of knowledge within philosophy, for example feminist philosophy. In my opinion, there is no such distinction (although there are differences here and there that can be argued about). There are no absolute answers here or there, but one should not conclude from this the complete opposite, that justifications are worthless or that definitions are always completely arbitrary. For example, the issue of Messiah and redemption is a distinct issue of Israelite thought, even if you find that in certain generations prominent thinkers did not see it that way. It is possible that one day we will re-adopt their position. It is possible that we will come to the conclusion that this is an issue that is only on the periphery of Judaism (I tend to think so). Anything is possible. In the meantime, this is an effective and justified working assumption, and it seems to me that the theoretical price that arises from neglecting it is too great.
Regarding the principled debate between you and Inbal.
I think you both correctly describe his friend's hump but don't see your own.
Inbal is troubled by the fact that your "thin" picture of Judaism leads to skepticism and therefore a consistent and honest Jew would have to turn his back on such a religion. I think he is right in his criticism of this matter.
What he misses (and you don't) is that it is indeed Judaism.
I wrote that you can define the field like this, definitions tolerate everything. But the reference to Jewish thought as part of the Torah means that the question of who wrote it is important and that there is authority for correct answers, etc. This is not an a priori study that anyone can do according to their own interpretation and that everyone will accept or not. This is (Jewish?) philosophy, not Jewish thought. If you want to define a philosophy created by a son of a Jewish mother as Jewish thought, shame on you. Definitions tolerate everything.
Regarding the argument with Inbal, I definitely see my point and do not see it as a hump. You are right: this is indeed Judaism. Facts are not humps.
I described your Judaism (and in this I probably agree with Inbal) as a skepticism that a consistent and honest Jew would have to turn his back on. In response, you replied, “You are right: this is indeed Judaism.”
Is this how you see Judaism? Is it skeptical in your eyes?
Not skeptical, but does not include concrete theology. In any case, there remains room for different opinions and positions.
Regarding your perception of Judaism:
Inbal (and little me) can tell you that you are missing the mark in two opposing directions:
On the one hand, if you are proposing a “thin theology” then this too is concrete and has certain principles. This does not align with your last response to me.
On the other hand, your theology is still too thin and therefore inevitably leads to skepticism. And skepticism is not only incompatible with Judaism but also incompatible with the truth in general. And that is what Inbal complained about.
The thinness of theology does not stem from a lack of content. Rather, it stems from the fact that the content is not binding and is not in anyone's possession. Judaism includes belief in God and the giving of the Torah and a commitment to the commandments. This is my theology on one foot. Anyone who does not believe this is wrong, but there is no claim against him. I have no authority to force anyone to believe in these principles, but these are the correct principles in my opinion and they define who is a Jew (or what Judaism is).
Would you treat a halachic ruling written by a non-Jew in the same way?
Of course, I meant a non-Jew, a scholar of Shas, a poskim, etc., and there were such. (For example: Rabbi Weissmandel, zt.l., spoke with admiration of the head of the Jewish department at the British Museum library as a halachic and extremely knowledgeable person, and called him a “holy non-Jew”…).
And if you say that if the ruling itself is correct and well-founded, you will accept it, ignoring the ”posk”, then the halachic ruling is not “Jewish”. Maybe you will agree with that. I just wanted to clarify to make sure I understood you.
And since I went in to comment – The debate over the second book of the trilogy is futile in my opinion, whereas all the trees of the forest are pens and all the days are ink, etc. etc.
But, there is another source of authority (maybe that's not the right word, oh well), which you ignore - testimony. On the basis of evidence that has been investigated and verified, even executions are carried out. The prophets testify to what they heard from God. This is certainly binding. It is possible that the correct interpretation of their words has disappeared from us, and therefore each interpreter offers suggestions. And yet, how does this harm the very authority of the Bible and prophecy? The claim "each one interprets as he sees fit" seems to me to be a somewhat childish evasion, with forgiveness.
You missed an important difference: this ruling is binding if it is true and not because the Gentile said it. But it only binds Jews.
Beyond that, in halakha there is authority (formal) and in thought there is not. This does not mean that every decision maker has authority, but the Sanhedrin and the Talmud do. A Sanhedrin ruling will be binding even if in my opinion it is not true (within limits it is wrong in the mitzvah to listen to the words of the sages), regardless of whether it is a Gentile or an unqualified Jew. In thought there is no such thing.
The authority you are talking about is what I called substantive and not formal authority. Find out if this is true, and I have elaborated on this here in the column as well.
And regarding the childishness issue that you raised at the end, sometimes the child tells the simple truth that adults suppress and deny. As in ‘The Emperor's New Clothes’ (“The King is Naked”).
So you confirm what I assumed, so what did I miss?
As for the “authority in facts”. I did not come to argue because this debate will never end. I will content myself with the observation that this axiom of his honor is not necessary at all. The “facts” that you discuss are a kind of Platonic ideas that do not need confirmation from any authority for their existence. But as I think Aristotle already wrote, in his criticism of his master, these are not the facts that people deal with. The question is where do we get our knowledge of facts from? The sources of knowledge can be observations, logical deduction, revelation, and also the testimonies of faithful witnesses.
The basis of our faith in the Torah is revelation. Logical consideration (with all due respect to Anselm of Canterbury, to whom you devoted several pages in the first book) is not enough. Russell, I think, said that it was easier to mock Anselm than to find the flaw in his argument, but in his opinion there was a flaw in it. I am not sufficiently qualified to judge on this matter, but Russell was no less a logician than you, and therefore the logical consideration requires empirical reference, and this came to Abraham and the prophets in revelation, and to us in a one-time revelation in history before the entire people. Forget it and forget that there is no other religion in the world that dares to support its doctrines in revelation before an entire people – and it is nothing.
As you wrote, the doctor is a “substantial authority on facts” because he knows more than I do. So are the prophet and the sage, because the prophet had revelation and the sage had the tradition of the Torah that we do not have. Perhaps they are not “authority on ideal Platonic facts” But these facts are irrelevant to us. For our purposes, they are certainly an authority on facts that I am supposed to believe in that are beyond my ability to scientifically investigate (such as the afterlife, the Messiah, etc.), like the scientist or the “expert witness” in court. The court is still free to decide whether or not to believe the witness, but if the court has determined that the witness is credible and an expert, it is pretty much bound by his testimony and that is all.
You missed the difference in relation to the recipient, which is no less important than the difference in relation to the source. Because there is no difference in the source, you concluded that the halakha is not Jewish (in my opinion), and it is not. By the way, there are other differences, and so on.
I explained that there is no difference between observable facts and other facts. If any claim belongs to the category of facts - then it necessarily has no formal authority (but perhaps substantive authority). This is logically necessary and there is no way to dispute that.
I did not understand your argument about Anselm and Russell. In any case, it has an incredible number of logical leaps. 1. I also showed that Anselm's argument is invalid (or at least not ontological). Russell is absolutely right, I just went one step further and showed the flaws in the argument. But I am not clear how all of this is related to our discussion here? 2. Does the fact that Anselm's argument is invalid mean that revelation is needed? Are there other arguments. 3. Where did I say that faith is not based on revelation? On the contrary, in the book I explained that it is (also about it). 4. How does all of this relate to our discussion here?
In the last paragraph you claim that there is substantial authority regarding intellectual facts. I do not dispute that. On the contrary, I wrote that if a prophet comes and tells me something factual, I will accept it. How does this relate to our discussion? I was talking about sages and not prophets, also about their beliefs and even more so about their interpretations of the prophets.
I think both Mordechai and Rabbi Inbal miss the fact that you do accept the authority of revelation regarding facts, for example that there is a God and that He gave Torah. But this authority is only relevant to those who believe in it. And it only applies to what is explicitly written. For some reason, they seem to think that you accept the sages without accepting the God behind them.
Small correction: I accept revelation as a substantial and not formal source of authority (regarding facts). Of course.
Regarding the sages, I accept their formal authority, but only regarding norms. And that too, of course, only because I understand it to be the will of God. I do not worship the sages (nor do I worship them).
I think that when it comes to norms, you accept the authority of the sages also in a fundamental way because they are closer to the status of Mount Sinai and therefore their intuitions are better, and not just because it is the will of God.
True, but this is substantive and not formal authority.
I have a feeling that Rabbi Inbal and his ilk perceive the obligation to believe in certain principles of faith - as a religious and spiritual duty. A kind of position in the soul. That must exist. And that does not have to correspond with the factual test -.
I am not saying that this is a reasonable or correct logical move. But I think there is a different language here.
I do not think that Rabbi Inbal, if you sit down to talk to him and ask him whether the Messiah will necessarily arrive in the next 240 years at the most. Or whether there is necessarily a virtue in the people of Israel. He will answer you in a straightforward manner that yes, or that he is 100% certain that the Rabbi gave the information to the Sage, but that it is a kind of spiritual content and a viewpoint to hold in light of the words of the Bible, the prophets and the Sage, who, for example, speak of the redemption of the world and the resurrection of the dead and the triumph of the Gentiles and the praise of the people of Israel - in the sense that anyone who denies these things or is skeptical about the very possibility of God Almighty carrying them out after it is interpreted in many places that this is His will - does not truly believe to the end in the possibility of God Almighty as all-powerful or as someone who can intervene in the world and give Torah, or in the abbreviated language of Rabbi Ashkenazi: "Anyone who does not have humility will be revealed as an infidel." I think that is why it is also easy for them and their ilk to accept people who reject the main principle of faith out of warm yiddish - like Rabbi Tzadok and the Shiloah who abolished the principle of free choice. Or Rabbi Yosef ben Avtol and other kabbalists who argued for something that sometimes smells like two authorities - about an infinite evil that existed within God. It interfered with Him and therefore was separated from Him and became an independent entity. Talk about faith in the heart that is many times more important than the observance of the commandments in practice - something that smells like Christianity.
And to this day we are witnessing very puzzling phenomena in which rabbis warmly embrace a declared atheist who is married to a gentile. Someone whose private life takes herself outside of the halakhic obligation - both in the realm of actions and in the basic realm of consciousness of faith in God. And in the same breath they literally attack Torah-observant scholars and what is the reasoning? The former has a natural connection with the traditional and religious public and its values, and the latter are cool and connected to the atmosphere of modern culture.
I personally disagree with this approach and I just came to clarify that you are both having a deep and insightful discussion but are coming from different starting points.
Shalom Rabbi,
May you be strong, the answer is indeed spot on, although it is certainly strange that Rabbi Inbal did not see this already in the book.
I have one question: You wrote: ”Beyond that, my ’thin’ Judaism does not want to be “worth no less”, nor is it “legitimate in the consciousness of the Orthodox” (which does not interest the tip of my little finger), and not even “compatible with the sincere will of the believer who observes tradition” (which interests the other tip of it).”
My question is: What is the other tip of the little finger? After all, it only has one endpoint
The end that is attached to the palm of your hand.
As you know, I also shave under my beard.
Because of you I discovered I'm bald under my hair..
How do you overcome this?
In several places, Maimonides refers to the obligation to believe the prophet and emphasizes that this does not mean that the prophet does not lie, and he cites an example of this from two witnesses whose words we accept even though they may have lied.
According to Maimonides, as is well known, “I am the Lord” is a verse that commands us to believe in Him, or “Shema Yisrael” is a verse that commands us to believe in Him alone. So too is the belief that the Torah will not be replaced, seemingly the intention is to give halakhic validity to the Masoretic Torah and not to any other Torah.
Thus, there are many theological “rulings” of Maimonides that are laws for all intents and purposes. Regarding prophecy, which is a specific belief, Maimonides takes the trouble to emphasize that it may be a lie. Regarding the principles of faith, which are general, Maimonides believes that it can never be a lie, but faith requires something very specific and specific, and therefore it is a norm and not a fact. In other words, my belief that the world was created in six days is “God gave us the Torah and it says there that the world was created in six days, and therefore, for me, that is the duration of creation.” But the determination is about my belief, not about the facts.
On a logical level, I am willing to accept such demands. For example, I have written more than once that the claim that everything a future veteran student innovates was told to Moses at Sinai is a normative, not a historical, statement. But this is really not Jewish thought, but simply Halacha. I have no principled argument with this (although I would not necessarily agree with such a definition in all cases).
Unfortunately, I didn't have time to read everything thoroughly, but first of all, one question bothers me.
The impression in the Sages, and echoes can be found in the Rambam (End of the Laws of Kings), that Judaism functions as a bearer of good news to the world, the belief in uniqueness. It is possible that its historical role ended after idolatry was no longer on the agenda, and perhaps there are secondary roles, such as repairing the world in the kingdom of Sha-di, making a "dira in the underpants", and so on.
If we perceive Judaism as an ethos, and the Jews as partners in that ethos, here there is definitely a place for formal authority. Regardless of the facts and what is right and what is wrong, there are boundaries of the sector of that ethos, those who share it are partners in this project of being Jewish (mainly duties and responsibilities, rights in the next world), those who don't, are not.
The sanctions are immediate: not joining the minyan (even those who believe in prayer, but do not primarily believe in another faith), a ban on wine that has been touched by them and a priest, but this is not because of the heresy/error, but a form of excommunication and exclusion from the group of believers.
Of course, one can disagree and argue, who has authority, what the boundaries of the sphere are, but I find it difficult to understand the claim that conceptually there is no formal authority possible. I am quite inclined to assume that there is no such authority in the context of Judaism, but conceptually this is not a failure.
You should read. I answered all of that.
Couldn't it be said that the sages imposed sanctions on those who did not believe in a certain set of beliefs not as a punishment but to ward off erroneous opinions?
Perhaps the sages reached some kind of consensus
In principle, it is possible. And it is certainly possible that they reached a consensus. The question is whether this has happened and whether it is binding in our time. A few comments.
From their words, it seems that this is not the solution in these laws. They divide between a convert and a person who is appetizing and enraged. It is clear that they do not have an ideological convert (anus in opinions). There is a baby who is captured, which is a distant category reserved for those who grew up among Gentiles. Their assumption is that someone who grew up among Jews must hold the correct conclusions unless they were overpowered. This is not the case today. They did not speak of a situation like ours today. And an indication of this is that even the conservative rabbis of our time agree that these laws do not apply to an atheist or just a secular person in our time. In other words, they also agree that the Sages did not speak of such a model (and probably did not recognize it, at least not as a phenomenon).
One could, of course, say that this is a "holy lie," meaning that the sages knew the model and ignored it and treated it as if it did not exist. I don't think so.
Regarding sanctions on species: I didn't understand what the problem was with that. If there is a person I think is wrong, and his mistake is harmful, why not impose sanctions on him? After all, if I believe that what I think is really right, and I have faith in him that he can reach the truth – why not “help him”? And besides helping him, it is creating a society where it is clearer what is true and what is false, and helps people not to get confused by it.
For example, wouldn't you want society to condemn people who think that murder is okay? After all, you know they are wrong, and you understand the seriousness of the mistake, so why not try to minimize it?
Maybe it is important for society to be open and allow people to think what they want, but is it at all costs? Won't there be cases in which you admit that the advantage of walking the right path will outweigh the need for a pluralistic society?
Exactly. I have confidence that he can reach the truth. He is what I wrote. But anyone who has looked into it and reached other conclusions (a model that was probably not familiar to the sages, certainly not as a phenomenon) is certainly a coercive person. It is also possible to impose sanctions on him to deter and educate others, but our eyes that see that the infant that was captured by the sages does not fall under these sanctions, and our atheist today is a coercive person much more than their captured infant.
Regarding murder, it is not the same. Today we assume that every person understands that murder is forbidden. If I were to truly meet a person who is convinced that there is no problem with murder, he really does not bear criminal responsibility. Of course, protection is needed from him, but not punishment. Beyond that, there is my direct defense against him. Defense against opinions is much more far-reaching. And finally, murder is a value and we are talking about facts.
Regarding the price of tolerance and pluralism, I have an article that deals with exactly this. Search here on the website for “The Price of Tolerance”.
I did not see that the rabbi addressed Rabbi Inbal's claim regarding halakha based on theology (as Rabbi Inbal commented in his response to the rabbi's response).
Regarding the Torah, one really does not need to know what the theology is behind it in order to fulfill the mitzvot.
But the sage halakha is based on the theology they perceived, and if they have no authority in this part, what is the point of accepting the halakha that stems from the sages' misconceptions, so that it turns out that we are fulfilling meaningless halakha.
And if you're wondering, Rabbi Inbal's response https://rationalbelief.org.il/%d7%94%d7%90%d7%9e%d7%a0%d7%9d-%d7%90%d7%99%d7%91%d7%93%d7%a0%d7%95-%d7%90%d7%aa-%d7%94%d7%a8%d7%95%d7%97-2/
I certainly addressed this. I wrote that a law based on an incorrect assumption is null and void, like the one on Shabbat. But it is not true that it is impossible to observe the laws without understanding the foundation underlying them, and even without identifying with them. Furthermore, even the sages themselves were usually unaware of this foundation. And of course, the tenets of faith are certainly not the foundation underlying the absolute majority of the laws. Most of them do not reflect theological positions at all. The minority that are, can be biased and can also be binding in themselves without committing to the foundation underlying them (see column 257, which is dedicated to this). Therefore, none of this is of the essence.
By the way, it is certainly possible to be committed to the law and at the same time not accept the foundation underlying it. This is not my position, but rather the law itself. See column 257 regarding the bottom line versus the reasons (a majority in the BID for various reasons is also a majority. The bottom line is the halacha, not the reasons). A person can observe all the halacha even if in his opinion it is based on socialist values and at the same time be a capitalist. There is no problem in principle with this. Does Inbal think that such a person does not observe the halacha? This is absurd. The thought of the sages is not binding because it is values and theology (facts) and not norms. What is binding is only the halacha that they ruled (even if it is based on it). See the above columns.
I did not know about his response. I will try to read it when I get a chance.
I also wanted to point out Rabbi Inbal's second response. I must say that this is one of the more interesting discussions, because Rabbi Inbal represents the side that disagrees with you in the best way. I must say that this discussion really broke me and you both teach me a lot. It is an indescribable pleasure to read the discussion and I hope that you continue it until it is more or less fully realized.
Two points:
1. You claim that the status of the Sages' interpretations is the same as yours, since they were not prophets. But it should be remembered that concepts such as the Holy Spirit, the voice of the voice, and the like were. The transition from prophecy to non-prophecy is not smooth but gradual. Moreover, despite the issue of not being in the heavens, there are hints that prophecy does participate to one degree or another in the creation of the Oral Torah: the fact that the transmitters of tradition were also prophets (proof from the vision), and the special status of the Great Court in its sitting in the Ashkenazim Chamber, "in a place that God will choose." Even in the former there is here and there evidence of insights that came from heaven. So it does not seem reasonable to compare your interpretations to the interpretations of the Sages, who were much closer to tradition and possessed at least partially the tools that we do not have.
It is true that Judaism does not have a specific message today, because its messages have already become common knowledge and have been largely assimilated into other religions. But its strength lies mainly in the balance between different values. For example, in other religions, conservatives behaved in a much less balanced way than in Judaism (compare the devout Christian or Muslim communities, who murdered everyone in their path, with the behavior of conservative Jewish communities, who maintained a much more moderate behavior even toward Gentiles and infidels. There is no need to elaborate on the comparison between the IDF's measured use of force and the way other armies operate).
You make assumptions about the Holy Spirit that I do not accept. The evidence you have provided is very weak. See Rabbi Margaliot's introduction to the Proverbs from Heaven. The Holy Spirit of the Sages did not help them avoid simple mistakes, so it is difficult for me to accept that they had one.
You also accept the ideas you brought up at the end about the balances because it seems right to you and not because it is Judaism. So, we are back to the same point again.
Shalom wrote in the response: https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%d7%a6%d7%99%d7%95%d7%95%d7%95%d7%99-%d7%94%d7%a7%d7%91%d7%94-%d7%9c%d7%97%d7%a9%d7%95%d7%91
In your response to Inbal you wrote this
Note that this analysis also applies to God Himself, and certainly to the Torah, the Sages, or the Talmud. If God or Rabbi Akiva were to command me to believe in the coming of the Messiah, this is an oxymoronic demand that cannot be fulfilled. Even though God knows everything and even if I assume that He is not lying, at most it will convince me that the Messiah will indeed come (meaning that I am wrong in my belief), and then I will accept it because I am convinced. But formal authority over facts means accepting it even though I do not believe it, and such a demand cannot come even from God Himself, and of course not from a psalmist or from any other source.
If God can command you to love Him. Why can't He command you to know Him, the knowledge of the Messiah and any other truth?
It is clear that the commandment "Love the..." means that you will do everything that is incumbent on you in order to attain love. And this divine commandment implies the simple knowledge that you can get there and it depends on your actions and that is what you command
In the same way, God can command you to know the theory of quantum mechanics or the coming of the Messiah or even that 2+2=4. Since He knows that it is within your power and you have a mission to do the actions that will bring you to this knowledge/calculation.
Your argument presented above seems to me so shallow and superficial that I suspect that I have not understood it at all
I would be grateful if you could enlighten me on your intention
And this is what I answered:
It is certainly possible that there is a command to strive to attain certain knowledge. But this is only where the assumption is that if one works then one probably attains this knowledge (as in physics or science). This is not the case in the theological context.
It is certainly possible that the sages thought so, and perhaps in their environment it really was so. It is clear that their assumption was that it is within everyone's reach, and therefore, according to their assumption, whoever does not attain it is the advice of the instinct. And that is what I wrote. But in our time it is not so, and as I wrote, this reality was not familiar to them.
In the end, if I really was not convinced (not because of the instinct) it is impossible to come to me with arguments. At most, one can assume that it happened because of the instinct, and that is probably how the sages assumed. But the reality in this is different today, and they did not speak of such a reality.
And again he answered:
I was referring to your claim about God’s commandment on man to know/think, which is an oxymoron.
Why did you jump to the sage?
Do you agree that God’s commandment in both the realm of thought and emotion is not an oxymoron?
My answer:
Absolutely not. It is a complete oxymoron. At most, it may be a commandment to strive to reach the right conclusions, but in the end, you either arrive at them or you don't. There is no justification for making accusations against a person who has reached an incorrect conclusion. This is exactly how the Rambam interprets the commandment of Asa'a (the difficulties with which reflect exactly my position here).
I argued that if God commanded man to know a certain thing (for example, that there is a Messiah who will surely come), then he is certainly capable of it.
And you are actually answering me that if he failed to know, then God must not have commanded him (this is the crux of your words, as I understand it)
I put God as the point of reference and you put yourself as the point of reference
Is that correct?
And by analogy with the prohibitions of incest, if I failed to resist, then your necessity was not forbidden to me?
And I did not understand at all what the connection is with the oxymoron. A teacher's command to a student to know the multiplication table by tomorrow, is that an oxymoron?
God commands man to love him, is that an oxymoron?
It is true that in the first commandment there is a kind of oxymoron, and this is not the place to discuss it. But this has nothing to do with other commands of God Almighty to know His leadership in the world.
It seems to me as if you are challenging God Almighty's ability to know what man's capabilities are, whether, for example, man is capable of knowing the multiplication table or not. As crazy as it is, this is what comes out of your words, "God Almighty does not have the ability to know whether man is capable of knowing the multiplication table, and therefore God Almighty can only command him to strive to know this, but God Almighty does not and will not have any claim if he did not know this."
In my opinion, God Almighty certainly has the ability to know man's capabilities and to determine that if man has not attained certain knowledge, he must have been negligent in his work. And therefore He can certainly command man to know and not just to strive to know.
Certainly a correct description. But you cannot put God as a point of reference because you do not know Him. A person assumes his point of reference. If you see that people really believe in something else, then from your point of view this is the situation. Speculation as if God knows that they are all liars or captives of their own instincts is speculation, if only because you are not Him.
I do not challenge God's ability to know everything. I certainly accept that He can know. You are not only claiming that He can know but also explaining to me what He knows (that humans can reach the truth). Our argument is about this and not the first claim. I claim from my impression that not all humans reach the correct conclusions. I have no indication that I am wrong, and therefore the conclusion is that God is probably what He knows about humans.
God could also have created the world without gravity. But He created it with. A strange claim.
In short, I claim that he did not command people to know a certain thing. You claim that he did, and I do not know on what basis when it contradicts the information we have about the world. You raise the possibility that this information may not be true and that God has other information. Maybe. That is a possibility. But it is much more logical to conclude that the information is true and that He really did not command. That is all.
The analogy to adultery is irrelevant, and is partly correct. Adultery is a value and beliefs are facts. Trying to reach facts is really a value (norm) and not a fact. Hence, if you cannot help yourself and commit adultery, then you have committed a crime of rape. And so if you have no way of reaching the truth, then you are raped by opinions and there is no claim against you. But in adultery, you know what is right and you yourself understand that you have failed. Whereas in opinions, your opinions are what you believe and from your point of view, that is what is right.
I must have missed something in your words, because I was really lost
From what I understood at first, your claim was that God can command man to do something but cannot command him to acquire any knowledge
Now it seems to me that you mean that it is certainly possible that God commanded man to acquire some knowledge (not to try to acquire, but to acquire)
But man can never know that God did indeed command it. Is that what you mean? It is really strange to say that He commanded and man has no way of knowing whether He commanded, isn't it?
So we are left only with the point that it is possible that He commanded man to know and then man can know. And it is possible that He did not command man and then it is possible that he can and maybe not. Agreed?
For some reason, in your approach to things, it seems to me that either God commanded man to know everything or He did not command knowledge at all.
Why is it not possible that He commanded you to know that there is a Messiah but did not command you to know the number of the foundation in the crown?
I don't understand all this chatter and I don't understand what is unclear in my words. God can command us to study and think in order to reach the right conclusion, but He cannot command us to hold on to the right conclusion.
I wrote that there are two possibilities: either He did not command us to know because there is no way to do it. Or He commanded and there is a way. Since there is no way, it is clear that He did not command. Of course, there could be a command to try.
That's it. I have exhausted everything.
In response to ’A’ (not me) that appears in this link (https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%d7%9e%d7%a9%d7%9e%d7%a2%d7%95%d7%aa-%d7%91%d7%9e%d7%a6%d7%95%d7%95%d7%aa-%d7%a9%d7%9c-%d7%9b%d7%95%d7%a4%d7%a8) you claimed that a person can deceive himself into believing a certain claim (sex in crime). This means that in your opinion too there is a choice in belief. You once defined it as a choice in judgment and not in the final result. In any case, once there is any choice, the imperative is not an oxymoron. It may be clearly improbable (in my opinion) but possible.
No, because there is not and cannot be a command to deceive oneself.
I expected you to resolve the contradiction in your words, but unfortunately you didn't explain anything here other than a vague statement.
I definitely solved it. You just have to read.
So how can one be a deliberate convert? In the response I linked to, you talk about a person who convinces himself of something but is aware deep down that it is not true. The question in this context is, does a belief that you are aware of as being untrue (such as one that involves a choice in your opinion) count as a belief? If so, – there is a possibility of commanding that belief, if not – there is no concept of a deliberate convert. It seems that you are trying to introduce a concept of half-belief, which is not well defined.
A willful convert is a person who introduces himself into a false worldview because of his instinct. Over time, he adopts it and is unaware that it is also wrong in his opinion. I referred you to a discussion of the Hindu story.
You cannot command a person to deceive himself, because if I believe X, you cannot command me to enter into an illusion that is not X. Because before I enter into this illusion, I know that it is wrong, so why would I introduce myself into this illusion? Excuse me, but all this is really unnecessary chatter.
I found your article on the Hindi language (https://www.sefaria.org.il/sheets/237655?lang=he). I would like to point out that there you mainly discuss the translation of faith into will and action (regarding divorce), i.e. behavioral suppression, which is different from our discussion. However, you claim that the Sages understood the converted to appetite/to anger in a behavioral way (possible in my opinion). But if so, they can also halachically require behavioral belief (since it involves choice).
Forgive me for insisting, but in my opinion it is not unnecessary for the following reason:
I understand that you recognize that your followers will come up with a host of excuses against your claims on this subject, and therefore you are trying to turn it into an oxymoron, even though it is not one (with the help of suppressed rhetoric, admittedly). Correct me if I am wrong. In any case, the importance of this loophole requires insistence that we not sin by pragmatism.
To require behaviorist belief is to require actions and not to require conclusions. This is of course logically possible, although it is also very illogical and improbable.
And there is already a part in the ’ claim of Mount Inbal (without a frog)
Thought:
The rabbi argues that- “The meaning of this for our case is twofold: A. Formal authority with respect to intellectual issues (facts) is not logically defined at all. B. A person who makes claims in the field of thought usually makes assumptions out of thin air, at least when it comes to facts that are not based on observation.”
While I accept each of these arguments on their own, it seems to me that together they neutralize each other - while it is true that there is no formal authority with respect to a fact that can be given to observation, it can be said that precisely when it comes to a fact that cannot be based on observation, such authority is possible - an authority that stems from the exclusive ability of observation that is given to the person with authority and not to others.
Of course you will argue (and indeed you have argued) that you do not accept the assumption of such an ability to observe any mortal, but if so, this should be the central argument and not the two arguments above, which add up to 0
(It also seems to me that this is the root of the dispute and the reason why it cannot be decided - the belief in the observational ability of the wise and therefore in their authority to determine mental facts - like the belief in the creation of the world and therefore in the existence of the Creator's command - is difficult to decide and prove in a logical way and in any case cannot bind those whose conclusion is different)
You are confusing the two types of authority. There is no formal authority over facts, even unobservable ones. At most you can convince me that the source of authority knows something I don't, and then that is substantive authority.
A few points.
1- I wanted to ask if the rabbi has a way to analyze the Maimonides”s method on the subject. On the one hand, he writes in the commentary in 3 places in the commentary on the Mishnah that all authority is not based on facts but on conduct in practice (for example, he says in Chapter 12, “I have already reminded you many times that any dispute that may arise between the sages that does not result in action, but is merely a belief in a matter, no party can rule on a halakhah as one of them”. And in the commentary, the Maor noted the other places where he mentioned this element in the Piham”sh).
On the other hand, in Chapter 12 itself, he attaches to the halakhah the 13 principles?
And in the Mishnah, Part 2, Chapter 4, “When you find a Torah whose entire intention and every intention of its giver, whose actions are indeed implied, is – The order of the state and its affairs and the removal of the burden and the oppression from it, and there will be no consideration in it for theoretical matters, nor will there be any care to complete the verbal force, and they will not feel in it that the opinions are healthy or capable, but the whole thing is called – arranging the affairs of people, some with some without, in such a way that they will have some success, as that head saw it – know that that Torah – is polite and accommodating – as we mentioned from the people of the third sect – I want to say that the complete ones are in the power of the simile alone:
And when you find a Torah, all of whose practices are concerned with what precedes the correction of physical matters and the correction of faith as well, and it sets its intention – to give true opinions about God, first and foremost, and about the angels, and it strives to make people wise, to understand, and to awaken them until they know the entire reality about the nature of truth – Know that this is the guidance from Him, the Almighty, and that that Torah is divine.
Also regarding prophecy, although he emphasizes 3 times in the Foundations of the Torah that it is possible for the prophet's words to be false, in his famous letter on the derivation of the stars he writes, "Know, my lords, that it is not fitting for a person to believe except in one of three things.
The first is something that a person will have clear evidence of from his mind, such as the wisdom of arithmetic, gematria, and periods.
And the second is something that a person will grasp through one of the five senses, such as knowing and seeing that it is black and that it is red and so on with his own eyes. Or tasting that it is bitter and that it is sweet. Or touching that it is hot and that it is cold. Or hearing that it is a clear sound and that it is a syllable sound. Or smelling that it is a smell of a pus and that it is a smell of an evening and so on.
And the third is something that a person will receive from the prophets, may God have mercy on them, and from the righteous.
And the person who has an opinion must divide in his mind and in his thought all the things he believes in, and say:
That I believed in this because of acceptance,
And that I believed in this because of feeling,
And that I believed in this because of opinion.
But whoever believes in one thing that is not of these three kinds, of whom it is said, “A fool will believe everything”
2- In principle, I recognize the difficulty in the very concept that it is possible to establish as a fact an interpretive position, the same difficulty that has been at the basis of science since the days of Plato, that it is not possible to recognize a law by knowing a few details (induction). It can be said that - the cause of the body can never be recognized from the effect. Similarly, the reason for the commandment can never be deduced from the commandment. And similarly, no reality can be deduced from a previous/other reality.
Aristotle tried to posit “natural categories”. And to draw the conclusions by deduction. It seems that the rabbi also accepts this possibility (defining a custom in the example of swimsuits), although he limits it to guiding halakhic questions, and not to drawing conclusions regarding objective reality. It seems that this is how things are decided by explanation, since according to Aristotle, causes do not exist in a sense separate from things, but only within things (“heavy”, is something that falls down, but it cannot be said that a heavy thing falls down because of X or Y. I think that the rabbi mentions various demonstrations of this idea on the website many times). In this sense, the preachers of the spirit give an external reason for the appearance of facts (details of laws, for example), but they can never really be derived from the details. The rest of the arguments for the defense of science are nothing more than apologetics, such as Popper's principle of falsification, etc. Some are more self-aware (conventionalism and more instrumentalism) and some are less so (the empiricism of Bacon, Newton, etc.). The same is true in the field of Jewish thought.
3- For many years I have been telling friends the idea expressed in this column (this is what I have always believed, as surprising as it is, it seems that the Maharal in Teferet Yisrael, Chapter 6, also holds a similar opinion) and they have always asked me why the Torah that the Sages demand every thorn in it, is very lengthy in the narrative parts, and even longer than it is in the verses of halakhah. It is a vexing question, but it does not answer the proofs and the difficulties in extracting a system of views from the Torah.
Not long ago I thought that there may be a point in this matter to say that things in writing you are not allowed to say them orally and things spoken you are not allowed to write them. The written Torah should be seen as the playground where spiritual thinkers play and correspond with it (as several commenters suggested before me), and any such suggestion is fine. And for this very reason, things that the rabbi is allowed to write, writing a commentary on the Torah, sanctifies the possibility of a specific interpretation and neutralizes others. And indeed, we truly know how much unnecessary weight has been added to the (admittedly strong) shoulders of Judaism.
With self-awareness, I added that although, of course, it is impossible to prove that my interpretation is correct, I have not detracted from other seekers of records.
There is an article by David Haneska in Da'at that addresses this problem. As far as I remember, his argument is that a principle of thought that is expressed in halakhah has a halakhic ruling regarding it. He also shows that in the three places in Piham where Maimonides writes that one should not rule on halakhah because it is a legendary matter, he does rule on halakhah in his halakhic book (HaYad).
I did not understand what the point of the rest of the paragraphs in this section is.
I did not understand your words nor did I understand what they came to say. Is this a question?
I did not understand again. It seems like a thing and its opposite. What is written is fixed and is not subject to interpretation or, conversely, is subject to too many interpretations.
In short, if you want to say something, write it clearly.
Thank you very much.
Regarding the things I wrote in an unclear way:
B1 I only showed places that I tried to deal with in the past and where the Rambam takes both positions together.
B2 - I tried to connect the current issue in the column with the main issue in the philosophy of science.
I tried to clarify this (or rather, just convey it) by defining the difficulty in the philosophy of science, to recognize general things from details, and more broadly, it can be said that in the field of philosophy of science it can be said that it is not possible to prove laws (and in their turn, “ideas”) positively, only to negate certain propositions. And so it is in every field of Jewish thought (the reasons for the commandments and other matters of “view”).
B3 - I tried to suggest that in the field of thought too, the Torah has something to offer, but only in the latter sense of my previous argument, - that is, by way of negation.
Any discussion in the field called “Israeli thought” is required to correspond with the text. It can be said that the text does indeed exclude certain ideas (probably a little smaller than all the possibilities and precisely those that are on the ends of the scale in the field under discussion), but does not allow for a complete decision between all the possibilities.
I tried to “demand” that you should not write down things that you have spoken orally. The power of things that have been written down for generations is that they are a “playground” with which to correspond, but they still allow for a wide variety of opinions.
Things that are “supposed”on the other hand, are attempts to pave a single path through the whole.
The sanctification of one path and the negation of all other positions essentially contradict the written text.
(Only in matters of Halacha is it appropriate to formally introduce one Midrashic path, and to prefer one option over other Midrashic paths, thereby establishing the truth itself as the path chosen in the "Torah that guides")
Conclusions these days cannot be because of 'instinct'? Maybe it's a bit 'Freudian'. There's a concept of 'they didn't allow themselves' but rather 'in order to'! (As Brisker Rob defined 'you're a heretic'), why do you assume that any conclusion of disbelief in the 21st century is a blanket value for a purely factual order, and not instinctive?
I am not assuming anything. The reality is that today most secular people are because they think so and not because of instinct. They grew up without faith and do not imagine that there is any real faith in it. This is not the case in the time of Chazal, when faith was taken for granted. Therefore, the attitude towards a captive baby is different, and today most non-believers are like captive babies (and in my opinion, even more raped than them). This is also assumed by almost all of our contemporary rabbis, that what was once a marginal and rare number is now common. There are obviously others, and I do not assume that they are all. But this is the assumption according to which even those who are satisfied with us discuss.
And in the margins of my remarks, the words of R’ Chaim are not a matter for discussion. It is clear that someone who does not believe is an apostate even if it happened through rape. This is a simple fact. But this does not mean that he is being sued or guilty. On the contrary, R’ Chaim is only saying that although he is not guilty, he is still an apostate. This is a fact.
Honorable Rabbi Avraham, your (beautiful) article contains several errors. Due to the brevity of the platform, I will only mention two (in two responses).
One of the foundations of Judaism is that the world (all inclusive) is an expression of the will of God (in the words He created the heavens, by the breath of His mouth all their host, etc., etc.). If so, the terms “fact” and “will of God” are identical in definition.
The terms “halakhah” and “will of God” are identical in definition, and I do not see how anyone can disagree with this.
It follows that your distinction between halakha and statements based on “facts” is impossible. To the extent that the Sages were given the authority to establish halakha, they were given the authority to establish facts.
There are countless stories about halakhic rulings that changed what we perceive as ”facts” (tangible or intellectual), and even if there were no such stories, this is required by simple logic as follows (so of course materialists will have a hard time accepting it. In any case, it is clear that Judaism denies materialism. From an idealistic perspective, this conclusion is quite trivial).
It is impossible to "will" something to be true, either it is true or it is not, therefore a fact is not the will of God, because it does not fulfill any will, therefore even the sages could not determine facts, very simply because they do not "bend" to anyone's will, not even God's.
The second error in the answer is your distinction between “halacha” (in the sense of obligatory actions) and beliefs. For the sake of clarity, I will divide the topic into three: action, emotion, and belief.
1) God: “Put on tefillin!”
Adam: “I don't put on. Don't you see? What do you want, that I get up and go put on tefillin?!?”
God: “Yes, that's exactly what I want.”
Adam: “But I'm not doing it now. That's a fact.”
God: “I can force you, but I won't. M ”M We will consider the opportunity.”
(There are capricious people, who have no control over their behavior at all, who will identify with this person. M ”M Most adults in our world have already developed control over their behavior)
2) God Almighty: “Love your neighbor as yourself!”
Adam: “But I don't love him, what can I do. What, do you want me to suddenly start loving him?!?”
God Almighty: “Yes, that's exactly what I want.”
Adam: “But I don't love him. That's a fact.”
God Almighty: “I can force you, but I won't. M ”M We will consider the opportunity.”
(There are many people who do not control their emotions, and commandments such as “Love your” or “Do not covet” are absurd to them. M ”M Normal people have already developed control over their emotions, and with a little emotional awareness, it is not difficult to understand where each emotion comes from, and change it as needed)
3) God Almighty: “Believe in the coming of the Messiah!”
Adam: “But I do not believe. What do you want, that I suddenly start believing?!?”
God Almighty: “Yes, that is exactly what I want.”
Adam: “But I do not believe. It is a fact. Apparently I am a force of opinion.”
The Almighty: “I can force you, but I will not do so. M ”M We will consider the opportunity.”
(Many people would probably agree that the commandment to believe is unreasonable. But M ”M Someone who has reached proper mental control, and knows what causes belief, and what makes a person decide that a certain thing is a “fact”, has no difficulty adjusting his opinions and controlling them. A simple example is the laws of accepting slander. The Torah commands us not to believe, and of course these words are meant for someone who by nature tends to believe what he hears, and the Chafetz-Chaim (and others) have shown that this is very easy, if a person is aware of the process of making his decisions and beliefs.)
Dear Ariel. I'm sorry to say, but your words contain a lot of unfounded assumptions and a blatant disregard for the simple logical analysis I provided. The only thing that stands in their favor is the determination with which you express them.
Incidentally, this is very typical of the non-existent field called “Israeli thought”. There too, it is a collection of baseless, and in some cases meaningless, statements that the only thing that holds them together is the determination of those who hold them together.
For example, you challenge the difference between a norm and a fact with the strange (and unfounded) claim that the world is an expression of God's will. So what? Does this mean that the relation between truth and falsehood is the same as the relation between right and wrong? If a fact is an expression of God's will, then the fact is a will, for example, I built a table because I want to eat. Is the table not an object but a will? This is of course just one example of the strangeness of your arguments.
Since you ignore the reasoning I provided, I see no point in repeating them again to answer your questions. My apologies.
1) I am not ignoring your reasoning. I am simply attacking a basic premise of yours, which, if omitted, all your reasoning falls apart. You assume that there are “facts,” and they are stronger even than God. If God tells you to believe in the Messiah, you will believe only because God knows everything and does not lie. But this perception of yours is wrong (not only because it contradicts the thought of Israel, but also because it is logically wrong).
The following sentences are exactly the same:
“The Messiah will come. It is a fact.”
“God wants the Messiah to come.”
“God commanded me to believe in the coming of the Messiah.”
(The last two sentences are fairly trivially equivalent. I assume you don't disagree with that, but if you do, I'd be happy to elaborate.)
The first two sentences are equivalent because the will of God is what we perceive as facts. He willed that there be light, and He Himself "created" the light (in theology there may be a difference between His will and His statement, but I won't go into that). What we perceive of light as fact is only to the extent that the will exists. If in an hour God stops wanting the light to exist, or your table to exist, then they simply will no longer exist. What you call a "fact" or an "object" exists only to the extent that He wills that it exist.
2) You are talking about norms, and what you mean (as I understand it) is the observance of practical laws. In your opinion, putting on tefillin is a norm. But you agree that it has spiritual benefits, and therefore God commanded it (it is more accurate to say that He informed us that it has benefits, just as a doctor informs you that there is benefit in quitting smoking. This does not obligate you, but if you go against his words, you will be “punished” and harmed). This benefit is a fact that stems from the structure of the soul and the world, just as the harm of smoking is a fact that stems from the structure of the lungs and the laws of nature.
If you agree that in the doctor’s order (to quit smoking) there is no clear distinction between norm and fact, perhaps you will also agree with the law.
3) You claim that Jewish thought is characterized by baseless statements. I am sorry to tell you, but you have not studied the field seriously. For example, if you have no idea about medicine, you will probably think that the doctor's statement "smoke and you will die" is baseless, and is based only on the doctor's determination. I have no simple evidence against you, and neither does the doctor, but in-depth study could help.
I do not assume that facts are stronger than God. What does strength have to do with it? I argue that no one can command me to accept factual claims unless they convince me to accept them. That is all. I feel that this is a discourse of the deaf.
I could expand on the subject of facts, but for now I don't feel that you have the background to do so. Many philosophers have discussed this subject, what convinces us to accept certain things as fact, and how certain we can be about "facts". Perhaps I will expand on this later, if you demonstrate knowledge of the subject or if I have a lot of free time (prior knowledge of the subject is highly desirable, because the Malbim has already said that those who are first exposed to Kantian philosophy tend to disparage and ignore it, but those who delve into it will certainly be convinced).
So for now, let's focus on the second subject: your division between the subject of halakha and the subject of faith. In halakha, you accept the authority of the sages, and in faith you do not, because in your opinion, faith is a factual subject, and does not belong to the command to accept facts. Even if we accept your concepts as ”facts”, I would still argue that the division is incorrect for several reasons (beyond what I wrote in my second response above).
1) Suppose you are dealing with the issue of the daughter's plight, and it becomes clear to you with certainty that the halakha of the Holy One (after all, they have three hundred convincing answers). Although they also knew these answers and were not convinced, this is only because in their short-sightedness they were not able to delve into the depth of their logic (as is known in the Holy One of the sharpest points). In other words, you are convinced that the will of the Holy One (=halakha) is to resolve the daughter's plight. On the other hand, it is clear to you that the halakha (after many to turn away) is the will of God, meaning that the will of God (= the halakha) is not to be carried away. In other words, it is clear to you that the will of God is X, but the will of God is that you believe that the will of God is not X. This is precisely the contradiction that disturbed you on the level of faith, and we know that it also exists on the level of halakhic law.
2) The argument about the daughter's trouble is also essentially a factual argument. If it were clear to God that God did indeed tell Moses to carry away the daughter's trouble, or that this was indeed how they practiced in the wilderness [that everything they did was according to Moses], they certainly would not disagree about B. If so, what authority does the Sage have to decide this dispute (or any other halakhic dispute), which is actually a factual dispute?
(As I think Rabbi Inbal has already touched on this point, and I did not get to understand an answer to it from your words).
3) You agree that the Sage has authority in the field of halakhic law, including the laws of the rabbinate. Therefore, if a person declares “I believe in cooperation”, or bows in court and says “I bow to both the Lord and the husband,” it is the Sage's authority to decide whether to stone him or not. Let's say they decide to stone him. Now, either you assume that he believes in true faith and is stoned [and then God came to Tronia with his creatures, which is not a simple logical problem], or you are forbidden to declare his beliefs and must lie [as above], or you conclude that the sages also have authority in matters of faith.
We are blessed to have such a philosophical elevation among us. When I update myself with additional philosophical foundations, I will try to report back to you, and then perhaps you can enter the realm of reason. I must say that in the meantime, in the eyes of the flesh and in my abject lack of understanding, it seems that you are unable to connect two meaningful words in the philosophical field, and like many others, you assume that decisiveness is a substitute for arguments.
As for your other comments, I will address them only because I try to be careful to address each argument in a substantive manner, regardless of the arguer:
1. A dispute in halakhah is resolved according to the rules of halakhah. As far as I understand, God’s will is to uphold the halakhah that has been decided, and therefore even if the halakhic truth is to resolve the daughter’s problem, if the halakhah is resolved, it is not to resolve it, God’s will is that I not resolve it. The sages say this through the principle of “it is not in the heavens.” What does this have to do with this matter and our discussion? If I am convinced that it is not the will of God, I will not truly fulfill it because the formal authority is for the will of God and not for the sage. By the way, if I did not recognize the formal authority of God in His own right, then I would not fulfill His will either. What is the point of all this and the discussion we are having here? There is no problem defining formal authority over norms, but it cannot be defined over facts. This does not mean that everyone must accept any formal authority or any such authority.
You repeatedly demonstrate a terrible lack of understanding even though I explain it to you over and over again. Maybe it is my terrible lack of understanding again, but from a philosophical savant like you, I would expect more.
2. You remind me of the feelings that always accompanied me when I was told, as a common saying in yeshivas, that there is no dispute over facts, only over halacha. So I thought to myself that even the law is facts (what did God say or what did God want), and the dispute about the law is actually a dispute about facts. Anyway, my answer to that is listed in the previous section.
3. Neither this nor this nor this. A logical-philosophical wizard like you should have understood that there is a fourth option: I will not stone him because the sages themselves do not say to stone forced laborers, and by the way, if they did, I would object and not accept their authority.
Your most fundamental lack of understanding, in my opinion, is that you argue with a necessary logical argument, and do so by piling up counterexamples. This is similar to someone who would argue with the claim that 2+3=5 by using counterexamples. But you do not dismantle a logical argument with examples. If you think it is wrong, you should point out the flaw in it (in the definitions, in the assumptions, or in the conclusion). Since there is apparently no logical flaw in the argument, it is no wonder that the examples you cite do not really contradict it. Accept with understanding this feeble contribution of mine, the ignorant, which is humbly offered to the dignity of his philosophy.
Why aren't my comments being posted?
Have I been blocked?
In my humble opinion, the problem for Rabbi Inbal and Rabbi Yitzhak Shilat is that these critics call you Rabbi Michael Avraham, and you come by the title of Rabbi.
If you had signed a book with the name Mickey Avrahami, they would have accepted your words.
Rabbi Inbal already addresses this in his remarks
He claims that Yeshayahu Leibowitz’ is not relevant to just the people of the land who decided that they knew more Torah than the sages.
But after all, Miki is truly a scholar who invests in Torah and is therefore relevant to the discussion
I only know that R’ Eliyahu Dilmedigo. Dilmedigo claimed in his book “Examination of Religion” that rape in the Diaspora is called rape, where is the Radb”z's answer on the subject you mentioned in your words?
First, this is a simple assumption. Why do we need sources for this? Second, many of our contemporary rabbis, in their relationship to seculars, see them as rapists (a kind of captive baby).
See here: https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%A4%D7%A8-%D7%9E%D7%9E%D7%A1%D7%A7%D7%A0%D7%94-%D7%A9%D7%9B%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%AA
The notion of a “captured baby” is not exactly “rape in opinions” (at least, if I understood you correctly on this point). The assumption is that if a certain opinion is true, then a person will certainly be able to be convinced of it, if only he puts enough effort into it. If he is not convinced, then he did not put in enough effort, and it is not rape at all. It is just that there are situations in which even if he tries his best, he will not reach the truth, because he lacks data. And this is the notion of a “captured baby”, that where he grew up, he did not have sufficient sources of information.
Therefore, the Gershche said that in our day (that is, in his day) there is no longer a “captured baby” law against the secular, because the Baaleh Teshuva obligates them. As I understand it, his explanation is that there are already sources of information available today, and the mere existence of the Baaleh Teshuva phenomenon gives them room to be satisfied that their path is not correct. Now, if they don't bother to find out, it's not rape. And if they find out but not enough, it's not rape. And if they find out enough, they will inevitably come to the truth.
I have written several times that a baby being captured is a different, weaker assumption than that regarding secularists today. The information is irrelevant, since the information in itself does not require any conclusion. Poke Hezi. I understand that in your opinion it is not true that those who come out in question prove that the information says nothing about the conclusions?!
So we agree that a baby that was captured cannot be a source of "rape of opinions"?
Of course the information is relevant, and of course it is not the only relevant information. Motivation is also needed, as I wrote, and it is also necessary to be free from contamination.
A baby who is captured is definitely an example of rape in opinions. When you lack information, you rape in your mind, just like someone who has information but thinks it's an Indian culture. It's like saying that rape, mercifully, is only a form of rape if you rape with force, but not with a gun. It's rape and that's rape, and you don't need any additional source for that.
Furthermore, as I wrote, it's even a lie: because with Chazal, the reality was that the additional information for the baby would usually bring him to the right conclusions, whereas with us, that's not true. So with us, rape is more serious.
The information is completely relevant. Necessary but not sufficient. That's why you also say here that it's possible to be completely raped even with all the information in your hand. But you only mentioned a lack of motivation and cleanliness from touching. The most important element is missing: the conclusion. I may have all the information, but I don't believe it or I think it's not binding. The fact that there is a group of people who think that there was a Mount Sinai ceremony and they told us where we should put on tefillin is information, and it is not enough to create a commitment. I don't understand what the discussion is about. It's simply like a beita in a kotcha.
Just to clarify your point:
A person who grew up in a pagan culture (such as Pharaoh) should not be approached with arguments. He knows of course that there are groups of monotheists, but in his opinion this is an Indian culture. Even if two old men come to him and shout “Send my people”, he has no reason to take them seriously, especially since the God they claim in his name does not appear in any known list of gods. They can perform miracles, like any apprentice magician, but that is of course far from convincing.
So there is no way you can approach him with arguments.
Do I understand correctly?
And thank you for all the time you have devoted to me.
The criterion is one: whether that person can reasonably understand that he is wrong or not. Everything else is an interpretation of that person's reality and situation. The same goes for Pharaoh (who for some reason you assume was a tyrant, even though the main demand against him was generally moral, not to enslave people, and not a religious demand to obey God).
And even if one can approach him with claims, it is by virtue of substantial and not formal authority, of course.
I don't know why my previous responses weren't published. Maybe someone didn't like them.
However, I wanted to make a different point here. You assume that there is only formal or substantive authority, but there are other types of authority. For example, there is the issue of "a person being faithful to what he has", and from this issue it turns out that there are several types of "in his possession", and so on. A person's loyalty is of course also by virtue of the simple "why should I lie", but also much more than that. He is the "owner" of the fact in question, in the sense that the existence of the fact depends on his will, and therefore we must believe him, and this is neither formal nor substantive authority. This is a very simple explanation. And this is not just a normative guideline, but we are truly obligated (by logical necessity) to believe him.
You might agree that the authority of the Almighty with respect to facts is of this kind. And you might agree that the authority of the sages with respect to facts, insofar as it is derived from his authority, is also of this kind.
There are no more types. There can be several sources of formal authority, such as “in his hand”. So what? It does not concern my discussion and arguments in any way.
I understand that you think every husband has the authority to say, “I have divorced my wife,” simply because he is a husband.
Can you enlighten me as to the source of that authority? That is, who decided that every husband has such authority?
Note that “in his hand” is not a biblical decree. This is a simple explanation (at least for the sages).
The husband has no (formal) authority but has loyalty (something similar to substantive authority but even that is not entirely similar). What does this have to do with each other? You insist on mixing concepts over and over again. Loyalty here is a legal matter and has nothing to do with the subject under discussion.
Regarding “in his hand”, it could be a kind of migo and then it is an assumption (what should I lie about), or according to the head there is something beyond that (the ’ownership’). Again, what does this have to do with us?
[Response to your reply from 04/06/2023 at 02:08. I tried to respond several times and the site did not publish it. So I'm trying again].
1. You draw an interesting distinction between halakhic truth and the will of God. Okay. Let's continue according to your concepts.
You agree that the will of God has a spiritual benefit. That is, whoever does not bury the daughter's grave benefits, and whoever does not. And this was determined by the Sanhedrin, who ruled on the halakhah. That is, we have a formal authority (Sanhedrin) that relates to the facts (the benefit). Whoever accepts the authority of the Sanhedrin must believe that there is a factual benefit in not burying them.
This is not just a common saying but a rite. So we have a disagreement between you and me regarding the definition of the halakhic discussion (to what extent it concerns the facts). Maybe you'll agree that he has substantial authority, because maybe he's an expert on the subject of defining halakhah.
(This is not a fourth possibility, because by the way, you forgot that I wrote ” Let's say they decide to reject”).
So in your opinion, the sage has halakhic authority only over those who believe they are right. It's a shame that the slanderer and the blasphemer didn't know that. It's also a shame that Shimon ben Shetach didn't have time to tell his son “Say you don't believe that this is a desecration of the Sabbath.” It's a shame for David.
From Wikipedia (a very authoritative site, which only important and respected people use) entry “Counterexample”: “In logic and mathematics, a counterexample is a method of refuting claims”.
The point is that a real argument cannot have a counterexample. Such an example does not find the place of error, but it proves that there is an error.
And if you have the heart to find the place of error, remember the words of the Maimonides, that a “fact” is one of three: something that is directly perceived by the senses, something that has a clear mathematical proof, or something that has a clear prophecy. And anyone who believes in something that is not of the above, about whom it is said, “A fool will believe anything.” According to you. Now please choose one interesting fact (that made you believe that the Sages are wrong, or that the Holy One and the Sages do not have authority over it), and please tell me what convinced you that it is true: sensory perception, intellectual proof, or perhaps something else. From there we can move forward.
Not true. The authority of the Sanhedrin is only that this is what needs to be done. Absolutely not regarding the fact that it has spiritual benefit. You are mixing up the levels again and again. That's it, I have exhausted this nonsense to the point of bleeding. Like it or not, don't accept it (and be wrong).
As I recall, there is no authority even regarding logic, so certainly not regarding facts. Those who are convinced accept it and those who are not – don't.
The truth is, I'm also a little tired of the "chatter." It's been said about this that "the law of Zvi is a lie."
But I want to clarify your opinion on two points (in two different responses). You've already written, but I want to be sure that I understood correctly. Not to start more chatter, but just to be sure that I understood.
In your opinion, it's possible that there is a spiritual benefit in raising a daughter's distress, but the Torah ("after many to turn") requires me to behave in a rather useless manner. In other words, there is not necessarily a spiritual benefit in observing the commandments, to the extent that observing the commandments depends on the opinion of the sages ("after many"). Did I understand correctly?
Absolutely. The things are explained in the sermons of the Rabbi (regarding the Elder of Mamre) and more, and they are as simple as a proverb. Perhaps there is benefit in hearing their voice (as the Rabbi suggests there), but the benefit of the mitzvah itself does not necessarily exist. More sharply: the halacha does not necessarily hit the truth, and yet this is what one is supposed to do.
Is the reference to the sermons of the Rabbi Drosh 12? I did not find it there (he is talking about the old man of Mamre). Perhaps the reference is to Drosh 11, where he writes that the Torah laws are incomplete, and that the king's laws are required in order to complete the political system?
Here is an excerpt from Doshur 7:
And indeed, if they were to argue against Rabba bar Nachmani, who was a purifier, even though he agreed with the truth more than they did, the majority would not do an act of purification according to the opinion of the individual. Therefore, the Torah commanded that the decision of the majority should prevail, and the individual is commanded to do according to their agreement, even though he knows that they disagree with the truth, as God, the Blessed, commanded in saying, “You shall not deviate.”
And in Doshur 5, which is longer:
[And even if an individual agrees with the truth more than the majority, he has the right to overrule his opinion with them. And they already said in Babba Metzia (552) regarding R’ Eliezer, R’ Joshua stood on his feet and said, “It is not in the sky” (Deuteronomy 312), “Why is it not in the sky? Moses already gave it to us on Mount Sinai, and it is written in it to deviate after many.” Here, everyone saw R’ Eliezer agrees with the truth more than they do, and that all of His signs are true and just, and they ruled from heaven according to His words, and yet they acted according to their agreement. Since their minds were inclined to become impure, even though they knew that they would agree to the opposite of the truth, they did not want to purify. And they would be transgressing the words of the Torah if they purified, since their minds are bound to become impure, that the decision was handed over to the sages of the generations, and whatever they agree to, that is what God, the Blessed, commanded.
Therefore, He gave permission to the sages of the generations to decide the dispute of the sages as they see fit, even if those who preceded them were greater than them and more numerous than them, since we were commanded to follow the agreement of the sages of the generations, whether they agree to the truth or to the contrary, and this is explained in many places.
For even though they knew that doubt was pure on the path of truth, they would say impure, [since] the ruling of the Torah was handed down to them in their lives, and that their intellect was obliging to be impure, [and therefore] it was fitting that it be impure even though it deviated from the truth, since the human intellect is obliging, and the rest, even though it is truth, is not worthy of doing such an act in the ways of the Torah, just as the disputants of R’ Eliezer did not purify themselves, even though a voice from heaven gave them authority according to his words, and we were not satisfied that the matter was from God, blessed be He, just as we were not oblivious to these, and yet [R’ Yehoshua] said, There is no Torah from heaven. And therefore he said, "Whoever is present, is present in the presence of Rabba bar Nachmani, and the ruling did not come to him from the pleasures, because they were not satisfied with this as I wrote, but rather that he ruled [as] the human intellect is obliging according to the Torah and the measures it requires. And what they were defilement of was not only their short-sightedness relative to human reason, or their lack of Torah study in their lives.
I remember another passage and now I can't find it, where he makes it difficult to convince a person to do something that is not true, and after all, it is harmful to his soul, and writes that disobedience to the sages is more harmful to his soul.
Both quotes speak of the pursuit of truth, and do not speak at all of the benefit. That is, when the Sages ruled against the truth (for example, Achnai's oven), I can still ask whether the reality has now changed, and the benefit continues from obeying the words of the Sages according to what they have now ruled.
The third quote (which you did not quote) does indeed speak of this issue, the harm to the soul. And perhaps you mean what he said in Drosh 11:
“And behold, here is a place for study… But after we… believe that everything that the Torah forbids us from is harmful to us and gives rise to a bad impression in our souls, and although we do not know its origin… then when the Sages agree on one impure thing that it is pure, what will it be, will that thing not harm us and do what it is in its nature to do, and although the Sages have agreed on it that it is pure.” And it seems to be what you said.
But the conclusion of the Rabbi is not like this:
I further believe that it is impossible for a soul to suffer any loss from what the Sanhedrin decides, even if they eat the forbidden food and say that it is permissible. Since the correction that will be sustained in the soul from the decision to follow the mitzvot of the sages, the teachers of the Torah, is the thing most beloved to him, as they said, "Behold, the sound of a good sacrifice, and that correction will remove the evil that is destined to be born in the soul from eating that forbidden food."
And so it is clear that if the Sanhedrin decided something, then now the reality has changed, and there is a benefit in this act, which was not there before their decision. And so the Rabbis have an influence on reality.
And the words of the prophet are also known, that at the time of Rabbi Hiya, it was possible to put on round tefillin and receive all the effects. But now, of course, whoever puts them on will only receive harm... and so, according to him, we found a source from the Maharan.
The quotes I brought from the Rabbi come as a source that the teaching of the halakha may not coincide with the truth. That was the discussion here.
The quote you brought talks about the benefit, which is a marginal issue in the discussion here and indeed it also appears in his book. And it is not true that his conclusion is different. His conclusion is exactly what I wrote: the benefit of listening to the sages offsets the harm of deviating from pure halakha. Exactly what I wrote.
By the way, assuming that the mitzvot have a benefit, as the Rabbi and I assume, then the quotes I brought also say the same thing.
I wanted to share with the Rabbi a point that became clear to me during the discussions. Perhaps the Rabbi will find it useful. But first, I must admit my guilt: the Rabbi accused me several times of confusing concepts, and I certainly do. I will give you a small crown and try to explain why this happened.
Years ago, I spoke with an academic scholar who specialized in the ”study of Jewish consciousness” as he defined it. He lectured me on the different approaches of the sages in the Rambam”s generation, and among other things, he claimed that Rabbi Even Shoshan advocated closure, and indeed gave himself over to the sanctification of God, in contrast to the Rambam who advocated openness, and stated (in the Letter of the Destruction) that conversion to Islam does not reject the faith, and one should not give up one's soul over it. So. And it seems to be the opinion of that scholar that the Rambam would have said the same thing about Christianity. In my opinion, he was talking nonsense, since the Rambam did not think in terms of "openness" or "closure", or other terms invented in modern academia, but in halakhic concepts. For someone who thinks in terms of "no action" versus "no action", the difference between Islamization and Christianity is abysmal, and it is clear to me that the Rambam would have made this distinction. But for that scholar, this distinction seems forced and artificial, in his categories of thinking.
Years later, I discovered that Thomas Kuhn understood this before me. In his book on scientific revolutions, he argued that the replacement of a scientific theory often results from a change in the categories of thinking (a paradigm in his language), and not necessarily from the discovery of new facts. It turns out that the same facts can be understood very differently in different paradigms, and in any case, conclusions that seem completely proven in one paradigm seem unfounded (at best) in another.
I understand that this is the basis of all our discussions, and perhaps also for your discussions with others. You operate from certain categories (every action of a person arises from persuasion or authority, and every authority is necessarily substantive or formal, etc. etc.), but you certainly understand that other people think in other categories. When they refuse to adapt themselves to the ”bed of Sodom” Of your categories, their words probably seem to you like a mix of concepts and levels, just as your divisions (which necessarily stem from the categories) sometimes seem forced and artificial to others (for example, regarding the authority of the sages in halakha. Formal authority stems from the commandments of God, of course. But He did not command us to obey everyone who calls himself a "sage", but only those who are truly experts in the field. If so, there is always an identity between formal and substantive authority, and the division seems a bit forced, but of course it is possible). Or for example, the issue of authority regarding facts. For Kantians like me, "fact" It is inherently subjective, at least to the extent that it depends on sensory input, and cannot be defined otherwise (in my categories of thought), but you obviously think differently, and the concept of "subjective fact" probably seems to you to be a contradiction. (Needless to say, Kant's entire theory of cognition necessarily stems from his categories of thought, and it is impossible to dispute it at all, if you accept the categories. Given the categories, all of his teachings are logical imperatives. At least as far as I understand it).
This of course makes it very difficult to have a coherent discussion. In my system of concepts, your words seem mixed and almost irreparably contradictory. For example, you said that "by hand" is a source of formal authority, and in a later response you wrote that Baal has no formal authority. Given that Baal said I expelled a loyal Migo Davido, this is a contradiction that does not allow for further discussion. Or for example, when you said that the Sanhedrin has no authority at all regarding the spiritual benefit of the mitzvot, and then you wrote that disobeying the sages harms the soul, meaning (according to my concepts) the sages' ruling caused the reality of something harmful, meaning it changed reality (the facts), and in the same way the sages can eliminate any spiritual harm (if they rule that it is permissible). So their authority necessarily relates to the facts.
I am not claiming that you are not a consistent person. In your system of concepts, you are certainly a consistent person (obviously you divide between different types of "benefit", and authority regarding facts (which the sage and no one else has) is not related to the ability to create the reality in question, and therefore according to your definitions, "in his hand" is not a type of authority either). To me, of course, this seems like a mix-up at best, but it's clear that you (by your standards) are at least as consistent as I try to be (by mine). But it's hard to have a fruitful discussion like this. There's really not much benefit to be gained from it.
I'll just add (and maybe you'll agree with me on this), that switching categories of thought is not particularly difficult (I've done it a few times in my life), and if so, to the extent that conclusions stem from a paradigm, there's no argument for rape of opinions.
So, the obvious question is whether there's a reason to prefer a particular categorization over another, given that every categorization is equally consistent (we're not dealing with judges). One could of course argue that if a particular categorization leads to absurd conclusions, and to the exclusion of too many verses from the literal meaning, it should be discarded. But one can also argue that we must accept any argument that is proven logically, even if it is absurd (after all, nothing can be more absurd than quantum mechanics), and that the gates of interpretation and doctrine have not been closed.
But perhaps one can argue that there is still a certain categorization, which is objectively correct. If indeed God created a certain system (at the level of human thinking, of course), and gave us the Torah in order to understand it in that system, then it has priority over any other categorization. And if indeed the system of thinking of the sages (who did not think in terms of this or that "authority") is accepted from Sinai, and not just the fruit of the human culture of their time, then it must be accepted. Of course, a third situation is also possible, in which their system of concepts is mixed with accepted things combined with human cultural influences. But that is another discussion.
Interesting, but in Michael Avraham's books there is a considerable place for intuition when he proves that one should adopt the synthesis over skepticism/fundamentalism. And if so, why here when from a logical point of view it is somehow possible to accept the factual claims of the sages that, being closer to the prophetic era and the revelations that occurred in the miracles in the Temple (simply an example of God's active interaction with creation and the appearance and expression of His will in a fairly clear manner), they refuse or, by force, reject outright most of their assumptions?
In other words, why not give training to our intuition towards sages who experienced or understood things that we go through or have experienced?
It feels a bit like pride to me not to accept and defend that God will not come with claims because I do not understand or am not accepted and we will set my own systems,
as if you understand everything?
Maybe you should give some credit to those who passed on to you the entire tradition that you follow.
You won't be called anything if you accept it and don't fully understand it or if you have real questions about their assumptions.
It's true that you can't be held accountable for what you don't believe because you don't understand it, even after you were honest and didn't understand it.
But after all, these aren't idiots who just spout nonsense from their hearts. Rather, as you yourself explained, this is a society that knew what logic was (as you have proven to the best of your knowledge in a set of books on Talmudic logic with Dr. Hayut), and in any case saw fit to adopt a significant portion of assumptions or factual claims such as the Messiah, reward and punishment, one God, Torah from heaven, etc.
Maybe this time you'll come down from your tree and give them credit for probably not being wrong about it and there really is something to rely on, and it's not too bad about your questions and your difficulties. Let's say together, a draw!
Do you feel proud to formulate a worldview of your own? So why not be a Buddhist? Are you really convinced that you are wiser and more righteous than all their philosophers? And what about Christians? Reformers? Baha'is? And how does your pride make you despise my arguments and not adopt them because perhaps you do not understand the depth of my understanding? It is not for nothing that I just commented in column 575 (note 2) on these foolish arguments in the book of the Stifler (Eternal Life), so you are recycling them for me again here?!
You have made two claims here regarding the laws of the species: A. The laws of the species are based on error because the tenets of the faith themselves are an error (according to those who think so) B. The laws of the species only pertain to those who are in the appetite or anger
On claim A, it is difficult to make a point: Nevertheless, according to those who do believe in the tenets of the faith, this law is correct and not based on error, so why shouldn't he practice the laws of the species (of course, I am not referring to the considerations of the parties such as that of the prophet)?
On claim B, it is difficult to make a point: In your opinion, if all the appetites are simply a person's will to allow himself offenses to the appetite, what is the difference between this and just a person who is converted to the appetite from any other instinct? After all, that person actually believes in all the right things, he is simply a criminal.
I don't remember what I wrote here anymore. It was a long time ago. But these two are the same argument.
As for your second question, when a person adopts a gender position to allow himself offenses, that is his motivation, but ultimately in his mind he is gender. And not just a criminal without justifications.
A. I didn't understand why these two claims are the same, and in fact in the article itself you referred to them as two separate claims, for example in this quote: “Inbal himself presents the explanation that I claimed these laws are invalid because their factual basis does not exist. This is also true. But he ignores another claim of mine according to which these laws are not invalid but simply do not exist with respect to a person who holds other beliefs (is mistaken in his own eyes).”
B. Why was the question about claim A’ in the previous response not answered?
C. I don't understand your definition of gender, because I don't really understand the difference between the gender you describe and the one who is mistaken in his own eyes. Both ultimately hold gendered opinions, how can they be separated? What difference does the psychological motive that leads them to these opinions make? I can even today come to a gender who is mistaken in his own eyes and say that in my opinion he believes in his own opinions in order to allow himself to commit offenses, what's the difference? And besides, does the rabbi really think that the opinions of Minos are so unconvincing that in Chazal's time no one could believe them out of consideration? Were there no philosophers, Christian thinkers, and other sects in their time? It seems quite clear that these are the people Chazal was referring to in his definitions of Minos and Epicurus (the name Epicurus itself indicates this).
A. I wrote the things a long time ago and I don't remember the wording. There is a factual claim that this is what the person himself believes in. And there is a normative claim that cannot be challenged with claims about this. If you mean both of these, then fine.
B. Because there is no claim A.
C. See the column that appeared yesterday. 657.
Confused Inbal responded to the comment:
https://rationalbelief.org.il/%d7%94%d7%90%d7%9e%d7%a0%d7%9d-%d7%90%d7%99%d7%91%d7%93%d7%a0%d7%95-%d7%90%d7%aa-%d7%94%d7%a8%d7%95%d7%97-2/
Indeed, a collection of demagogic nonsense. I see no point in continuing the discussion, and certainly not at such short intervals.