The Proper Attitude Toward the Residents of Gaza (Column 635)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
The harrowing images from Gaza have stirred harsh protests and criticism around the world. In response, here in Israel we hear comparisons between the status of Gaza’s residents and the seven nations about whom it was said “you shall not let a soul live,” or to Amalek, whom we are commanded to destroy. Such statements have circulated widely in recent months, and not only in religious circles; to a large extent they are a counter-reaction to global criticism. I thought it appropriate to examine these comparisons a bit more systematically and critically (and certainly not “from the gut,” as is customary in our quarters on both sides). Needless to say, the fact that the world’s criticisms are unfair or inaccurate does not mean that every counter-comparison is justified.
The Media Dissonance: Ought vs. Is
Let me preface by saying that, as I understand it, the world’s problematic attitude toward us does not stem only from antisemitism. In many cases it is the product of the picture in which people live (via the media) and thus of their ignorance. In that picture, I might also take to the streets against Israel (I hope). Remember: they see tens of thousands killed in bombings by a powerful and forceful army, including thousands of children; hunger and disease; infants living in tents through the winter without medical care; fighting in hospitals and schools; accusations that the UN is collaborating with terror (which sounds absurd); and more and more. No one there is giving lectures on the history of the conflict and its origins, or on the context of these events. But is there no media bias here at home? Do we examine every issue in the world—and even here—deeply before forming a firm opinion? Did any of us look closely at the Russian-Ukrainian conflict, for example, before forming a firm position on it?
There is a great deal of ignorance in the world on this subject, and of course a disregard for context and relevant facts (the history of the conflict, willingness to sign agreements, the Islamic infrastructure, territorial and historical considerations, the broad public support Hamas enjoys among the Palestinian public, and more). But we should honestly admit that we, too, do not really get the full picture. Remember that the media echoes back to each of us what we wish to hear (this is the phenomenon of media/filter bubbles discussed in columns 335, 451, and others). The “New Historians” began this critical trend, which in itself is blessed and good, as it seeks to balance the slanted picture we grew up on (and it certainly was—and still is—slanted). Of course, to draw conclusions from the new facts, we also need context and an analysis of what those facts mean. Clearly, there is never justification for lies in presenting facts. But a full factual foundation is always positive. In short, someone presenting facts that are uncomfortable for us is not necessarily an antisemite. As long as they are facts, he is obliged to present them and we are obliged to see and know them. Conclusions come afterward, depending on the context and the meaning of those facts. One mistake is to conflate presenting facts with presenting a normative stance; the equal and opposite mistake is to ignore facts because of the conclusions that seemingly follow from them. Both sides err in confusing facts with conclusions—that is, in mixing up the is and the ought.
Returning to us: these horrific scenes and images from Gaza are spared us. The usual Israeli media does not show them, and therefore we are less shocked by them—even though they certainly can and should shock. This, of course, says nothing about the conclusions and how we ought to conduct ourselves. Shock is an emotional matter, and I am absolutely opposed to setting policy according to feelings of the heart. Still, the images and facts are relevant factual input that we lack. The newspaper Haaretz, which by its nature emphasizes those angles all the more (well, that’s its duty as a Palestinian house organ), is dismissed with contempt as antisemitic. But presenting reality is not antisemitism. Forming a position without examining the implications of reality is also not necessarily antisemitism. Sometimes it is just superficiality—though in the case of Haaretz, which is indeed well-versed in the facts, it is to a great extent auto-antisemitism.
So much for the background—or the thesis. Let us now turn to the antithesis, namely the above comparisons. Needless to say, this discussion is entirely on the normative plane (the ought).
Rabbi Sherlo’s Remarks
In our correspondence, Rabbi Sherlo sent me a short post he wrote on this question (on the Facebook page called Zikim, Spark 14), and in his fashion he encapsulates it very well:
“‘As he is there’—‘Judged by his end’”
Two opposing sources serve in the moral discussion regarding the offspring of terrorists:
* The first* is ‘judged by his end.’ We have every basis to assume that, given the education preached by Palestinian society, they will not even have the possibility of not becoming enemies of Israel who seek to annihilate us;
And on the other hand: ‘For God has heard the voice of the lad as he is there,’ and Rashi there, in light of the Talmud in Rosh Hashanah, says: > He is judged according to what he does now, and not according to what he will do in the future. <
Many of Israel’s sages have written on resolving the contradiction between these two principles and have proposed various suggestions. Anyone who wishes to deal with the question of what Jewish morality is regarding this reality must relate to both sources—not to one alone—and of course to a broader envelope as well, from the duty of ‘I shall not return until they are consumed,’ to the prevention of a great desecration of God’s name.
May God enlighten our eyes.
Indeed there is tension between these two sources, though we must remember that “as he is there” speaks of Ishmael who, at least in the biblical view, is expected to have billions of descendants; thus it is difficult to decree annihilation upon them all due to a future projection about Ishmael himself. Moreover, at least by the plain sense of Scripture, he himself did not truly sin but is merely expected to cause us trouble. By contrast, “judged by his end” is said regarding the wayward and rebellious son (ben sorer u-moreh), a law concerning a specific individual who has already sinned, and then perhaps it is not right to take into account a projection about what will be with him in the future.
One can suggest further distinctions. But beyond all such distinctions it is important to understand that these two sources address the question of eradicating evil. The tension concerns how far we may eradicate a person before he has chosen evil, merely because he is expected to do so. Our discussion, however—like Rabbi Sherlo’s, which deals with the offspring of terrorists—does not end with eradicating evil, but with the legitimacy of various means of self-defense. Here the question is: may I kill a child who has not sinned solely because of the future threat expected from him, even before it materializes? From this I understand that the expression “judged by his end” is used here by Rabbi Sherlo only in a borrowed sense. As he himself begins: the idea is to kill them because of the danger they will pose in the future (that they will grow up to be terrorists), not to judge them to death as punishment or as eradication of evil because of their future deeds (as with the wayward and rebellious son).[1] It is true that the phrase “children of terrorists” is not ideal, since the intention is to all children of Gaza, not necessarily those whose parents are terrorists.
A Look at Morality and Halakhah
The Torah contains several commandments to annihilate nations completely: the seven nations and Amalek (I will not enter here into the differences between them). On the face of it, these are very difficult morally: what justifies killing an Amalekite or Girgashite infant? What did he do to us?
I have often discussed the distinction and independence between halakhah and morality (see, for example, columns 15 and 541). My claim is that halakhic directives are not to be tested in the crucible of morality, for their aim is religious, not moral. At times the religious aim obligates us to act in a way that is not moral, and that should pose no difficulty for halakhah. Seen this way, the clash between halakhah and morality becomes not a problem but a conflict—a collision between values. Therefore, it is neither necessary nor correct to base the halakhic directive in moral terms. The remaining question is which side takes precedence, but the mere fact that there are contradictory directives is not itself problematic.
Such a conception opens the door to explanations of the following sort: the annihilation of Amalek or the Girgashites is meant to achieve religious ends; a moral justification need not necessarily be found. True, in such cases the sages usually find ways to limit and narrow the halakhic directive as much as the halakhic tools of interpretation allow, in order to reduce the intensity of the conflict; but there is still no inherent problem.
A Possible Justification
In the third book of the trilogy (Part II, Chapter 5) I explained that notwithstanding the above, when dealing with these commandments there may be room to justify the halakhic directives also on the moral plane. Let us begin with the seven nations. Imagine a nation whose entire purpose in the world is idolatry coupled with brutish, cruel conduct. That is how they educate their children; that is their culture and national ethos. Infants of such a nation are nothing but potential to become such adults, and perhaps there is room to understand the moral justification of a halakhic directive to destroy them, from infant to elder. Although in principle every person has free choice, when we look at them as a collective, it seems they have no future or hope. One can apply here the principle “you shall remove the evil from your midst.” But this truly goes far, because it concerns an infant who has not yet committed any offense, and whose committing one (or not) will be left to his future choice. On the face of it, I would expect the Torah to allow a child born to the Girgashites to choose, and to decree his eradication only after he has chosen evil.
That is with regard to the seven nations. While reading the Torah portion of Zakhor last Shabbat I thought that regarding Amalek the case is simpler. Imagine a nation whose entire purpose in the world is to prey upon others (and in particular upon Israel) and to annihilate them. That is how they educate their children in school; that is the goal of the entire nation—even if those who actually bear arms are only a minority who belong to the Amalekite army. This is merely a division of labor. Their entire existence is devoted to that goal, and for their children too the future seems fairly clear even now. One could of course say, as we said regarding the seven nations, that here too we ought to allow each infant to choose and only then decree his fate after he chooses evil; but in Amalek we are dealing not (only) with sin but with a physical threat to us. Therefore, it is not only a matter of eradicating evil but of defending ourselves from them. Taking into account the Amalekite child’s future choice entails assuming unreasonable risks for us. In such a case there is indeed logic in permitting the blood of every Amalekite, whether directly involved or not.
All this always struck me as a hypothetical discussion far removed from us. Sometimes we think of it in terms of the Nazis in the Holocaust. A Jew in a concentration camp would surely be eager to contribute to the destruction of the German nation as a whole—women, children, and infants. This is certainly understandable and justifiable. But even there, my sense is that it was not an essential feature of their culture, but a pathology that took hold in those years. Germans are not Jew-haters or seekers of our destruction more than any other nation. In those years a mad psychosis took hold there, and they became a nation of pursuers. Therefore, it is difficult to claim that the children who grew up there would necessarily be pursuers when they matured. The fact is that Germans today—the children born then and their descendants—are mostly not like that. So there, killing children is at most in the category of eradicating evil (some compared the Nazis to Amalek), but not self-defense (since the future risk from them is far from clear).
But last October we received a chilling demonstration of a case more clear-cut than the Nazis. Hamas is not more cruel than the Nazis, and I have no interest in entering all the pointless debates about the uniqueness of Nazism versus our other tormentors—both because they are irrelevant and because that sport is not to my taste. The difference relevant to us lies in how deeply this is embedded in the culture in question. In Germany, as noted, it was not the deep, foundational substrate of their culture (for the Nazis, yes; for the German people, no). But among our neighbors in Gaza, this seems very much the case. There is a culture there that contains little more than the desire to annihilate us, and as part of militant Islam in general to conquer the world while exterminating all infidels. They educate their children to this morning and night with astonishingly cruel propaganda, and there is no sign that any of this is going to change. Unlike Nazism, it is anchored in distorted religious conceptions and flourishes in a primitive, benighted environment. All this is a recipe for breeding monsters like those we encountered last October. This does not look like a temporary takeover of the entire people by a party or group. Polls show that the support for these atrocities is sweeping in Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) and also in Gaza, even nowadays. Many are prepared to endure all the suffering their benighted culture inflicts upon them as long as they succeed in killing and causing suffering to Jews and other infidels. If so, it seems that this is that “people,” and this is its purpose. In such a situation, the justification I described above returns with greater force, far more than with the Nazis. Is it not proper to annihilate this people from infant to elder and leave them neither remnant nor survivor? Are those not correct who claim there are no “non-involved” in Gaza? Clearly not everyone bears arms, and not even all assist those who do, and there is also a minority that does not support them. But the great majority support them and thereby aid them in various ways. Gaza as a collective is a puddle that serves as a breeding ground for monsters. It seems almost deterministic.
The Question of Self-Defense
After all that, it is important to distinguish between a claim of eradicating evil and considerations of self-defense. Self-defense is subject to consequentialist assessment. It can justify killing and causing suffering only where defense requires it. One cannot base upon it a permit to kill uninvolved Gazans unless they pose a danger to us. By contrast, eradicating evil could take us much farther: there one might argue that there is justification, and perhaps even an obligation, to annihilate Gazans as such, irrespective of any danger they pose. But to establish such a thing, one needs a clear basis—halakhically and morally. The verses regarding Amalek or the seven nations are not such a basis, for there does not seem to be a general principle (a binyan av) there. They are the specific examples in question, and even regarding them the decisors limited and narrowed the biblical directives. Therefore, the conclusion that there is here a duty to eradicate evil strikes me as hasty and unfounded. By contrast, self-defense considerations are certainly relevant, and on their basis one might perhaps raise arguments that justify killing children (who will grow to be terrorists or collaborators). In practice, I think even that is excessive. Killing a Gazan child “by his end” seems problematic to me. But there is still room for “softer” considerations.
I have written more than once that, in my view, in the case of Gaza there is justification to do everything necessary to achieve the goals of the war—namely the elimination of Hamas, the return of the hostages, and ensuring security for the entire State of Israel. Whatever is required to achieve those goals is morally justified in my opinion, including starving children and mass killing of uninvolved people (I am not entering here the considerations of global criticism, nor the concern over loss of international support and its consequences, which should not be dismissed). The explanation is that we are dealing with a collective pursuer (rodef) (these matters are detailed in several places on this site. See my article here, and columns 1, 5, 151, and others). The Gazans (and perhaps the Palestinians as a whole) are engaged in a dogged war with us as a collective and are unwilling to let go; therefore, not only those who bear arms are pursuers. All of them have the halakhic status of a pursuer. I explained there, however, that even so there is no justification to harm uninvolved people unless and when doing so is required for our defense; otherwise the rule of “could he be saved by injuring one of his limbs” applies.
This is a “softer” expansion of the rules of self-defense regarding Gazans—but it is still self-defense, not eradication of evil. And even for reasons of self-defense, I do not think it is reasonable to permit the killing of infants per se (not when it occurs in the course of striking terrorists) merely due to the future danger expected from them. Even regarding adults who support Hamas’s actions: support for terror is not an offense that justifies killing. Killing is justified only if it has a practical effect—namely, if it is necessary as part of our defense, and not as punishment or eradication of evil.
Eradicating Evil
Applying the law of eradicating evil or “you shall not let a soul live” to all Gazans is a very far-reaching approach. Until the Torah innovates such a novelty, “you have no more than what it innovated”—do not add to it. This became very clear to me when I heard of the Religious-Zionism party’s opposition to a move to place Gazan orphans left without family or home due to the current war with families in Judea and Samaria (see here). Their claim was that this is a “eclipse of moral lights,” no less, since our hostages receive no similar treatment from Hamas (to put it mildly). Seemingly this would be a pressure tactic aimed at improving the situation of the hostages and the chances of their return—and if so, that would be a perfectly legitimate consideration (as noted above, in my view every step is justified to achieve our aims). But this is, of course, nonsense. Hamas is only too pleased that there are orphans suffering. It photographs wonderfully for them, and nothing would make them less inclined to improve their treatment of the hostages. It is clear to me that this is a Pavlovian reaction by frustrated people who want to take revenge on Gazans and react from the gut. There is no justification to cause suffering to those orphans or to refrain from helping them improve their living conditions if that does not help our war aims. It is merely baseless, unjustified revenge.[2] It is nothing but emotional, childish vindictiveness.
Rabbi Mali’s Remarks
I noted above that a few days ago someone asked me about this matter. The reference was to statements made by Rabbi Mali in a class (see a report here; you’ll see the video is unavailable because it was removed following the criticism), where he compared Gaza’s residents to the seven nations about whom it is said, “you shall not let a soul live.” People understood (rightly or not—I understood from someone who was at the class that indeed rightly) that he meant a sweeping permit to kill Gazans as such.
In my reply I wrote the following:
“‘You shall not let a soul live’ was said about the seven nations or Amalek, and that is that. If he has interpretive innovations, that’s very nice, but to launch a genocide on their basis is too much—especially since this borders on ta’ama de-kra (and at most one could say that is its category). About this it is said: ‘Shall we act merely because we speculate?!’ Beyond that, there is also the law of nations (international law) and morality to which we are bound.”
“Note that I am not speaking of a situation in which it is necessary to harm the uninvolved in order to save ourselves or rescue hostages. It is obvious that this is permitted and required, with no connection to ‘you shall not let a soul live.’ For this there is no need for novel interpretations. It is possible that this is what he intends, and he behaves like all those who delight in finding everything in verses (through no fault of the verses), even when it is a simple argument. But the claim that one should kill them even if doing so is not needed for our salvation is a very great interpretive innovation and ta’ama de-kra. To kill on the basis of such a thing is criminal rashness.”
If his statement was meant as eradicating evil, then indeed a source is required. But the source brought there—“you shall not let a soul live”—is very dubious. And if his intention was necessity on grounds of defense and preservation of life, then there is no need whatsoever for sources and dubious interpretations of them. One must only decide whether it is in fact necessary and helpful or not. Either way, it appears on its face that the statements are unreasonable or at least inconsistent.
[1] In the laws of the pursuer and the burglar (rodef and ba bamachteret) we also discuss “judged by his end,” and there it is seemingly true self-defense; but even there, commentators have already written that the act has a punitive component. In my article in Techumin, “Killing a Thief for the Sake of Defending Property”, I argued that at least in ba bamachteret the permit to kill him is not based on concern that he will kill the homeowner, and the Talmud’s statement to that effect must be interpreted differently.
[2] The same applies to creating a humanitarian crisis in Gaza. There is a similar approach among members of the Religious-Zionism party, even though that likely will not truly improve our chances of achieving the aims of the war—both because Hamas is only too pleased with images of suffering, and because the world will be angered and further restrict our fighting. One can perhaps debate this, but the case of the orphans mentioned above seems to me entirely clear-cut.
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If I understand correctly, then the fundamental issue is whether we are permitted to rule on a law based on or inspired by what is narrated in the Bible. Is it permissible/appropriate for us to decide who is an Amalek, and whether the law of the seven nations is still in effect today.
Not exactly. After all, the law has dealt with this as well. This is a halachic issue, which of course begins with the Bible, but these issues also have post-biblical layers, as in all areas of the law. And yet there are extensions that seem too far-fetched. Applying such an extreme law from an explanation is difficult, even if the explanation is not unfounded. It is said about this that “and because we imagine we do something?!”
So you are essentially interpreting “and because we imagine we do something” as sages who are acutely aware of the limits of their ability to draw conclusions in cases where the issue” is large? (That is: “imagine” from the word image word for word)
Hello Rabbi, if I were to summarize your words very briefly, I would summarize them as follows: the enemy is the collective Gaza and for self-defense it is permissible to kill innocent people. However, there is still a certain reservation in your words.
I wanted to ask if the Rabbi is familiar with the artificial intelligence system called Lavender in the army, which was used extensively in the current conflict? If so, I am interested in your opinion on its use.
I will attach a link to an article I just read on the subject.
https://www.mekomit.co.il/%D7%91%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%9A-%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%92%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%9F-%D7%94%D7%90%D7%95%D7%98%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%98%D7%99-%D7%A9%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%92-%D7%94%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%91/
Yes, I read it. First, these are reports based on rumors and I highly doubt them. Second, I wrote here about phobias of artificial intelligence and this is part of them. From my impression and the opinions of the witnesses, the problem was not the use of artificial intelligence but the instructions given to it. And finally, I am not at all sure that I oppose these instructions/policies, as described here in the column.
See columns 186, 590-1.
First, in Rabbi Mali's lesson (like you, I didn't have time to listen before it was taken down from the website) he explicitly said that all military orders and international conventions must be obeyed.
The problem with articles like yours (or like Rabbi Ronen Lubitz's, who in a series of articles systematically and comprehensively scanned the attitude towards Amalek in the Sages) is that you don't have something that your opponents don't have. In other words, you can go against Rem Soloveitchik's interpretation of the Rambam and claim that their memory has already been lost; what is missing is a wart and they are not destroyed on its basis, and on the other hand, according to the opposite approach, the evidence, or the sources in the Sages, are no stronger.
It is difficult to argue with the fact that the Torah said about Amalek and other nations to destroy even babies. One could argue that it is immoral, or a religious imperative, or even moral, but it is the imperative. Is the case before us similar or not similar? You failed to say more than someone who claimed that it is similar (=Rabbi Mali). I agree with you that in Nazi Germany the case is even easier. And I suppose if I had entered Magda Goebbels' bunker while she was poisoning her children, I might not have helped save them, but I certainly would not have shot them. Is it moral? Not sure. But I agree that there is a good chance that a few years of denazification will do the job, which is not the case before us. Therefore, the justification in principle – whether it is moral or not – exists. And its lack of implementation in practice – also exists.
What they do from now on in practice – is meaningless. I hardly know people who would just kill children (not even from the extreme right), and if terrorists are hiding in a kindergarten, you also agree to kill them. So why exactly did the issue come up?
So what if he said it? Why does it concern the discussion? And I am no longer talking about the message conveyed in such a lesson, and about the fact that the audience probably understood that it was a statement for the purpose of obscuring the message. But as mentioned even without that, I am talking about the content itself, halakhically and morally, and not about the legality of the things.
It may be difficult to argue, but the poskim do it very nicely as I mentioned.
My discussion is principled and has nothing to do with nep”m. But if you already asked, you should have just read my words: I brought nep”m to the evil stupidity of the Smotrits regarding the evacuation of the orphans from Gaza.
[Those who were there in the class knew that the discussion was held as a closed discussion, within the framework of a yeshiva conference, and I expect you to fight fiercely for a person's right to say rational and balanced things - that's the impression those who were there had - in a religious class. But that's not the topic]
I didn't see the rulings you cited in your article, I may have missed it. You're not doing anything new from a Torah/moral perspective. The 'Smotrichian folly' is a type of position (and I'm not a fan of it) - you failed and didn't really try to divide between those who are completely innocent and those who are not, and therefore it is permissible to give legitimacy to the opponent (=Smotrich) who thinks that this behavior will help the hostages or at least wake up the nations of the world (of course it is beneficial for Hamas. Even shooting at a kindergarten is beneficial, and yet there is no choice); for a complete disengagement from Gaza; And again, it is not at all clear what the difference is between medical treatment and fueling innocent people, if there are any (of course there are, and yet you have not defined who they are and/or what a reasonable person should do in the case before us).
I see that unfortunately you did not learn the lessons from my last comment and you are continuing from the gut.
1. The fact that the discussion is closed really does not matter. By the way, it was not closed only to yeshiva students (I told you that I spoke to a person who was there).
2. I definitely fight for the right of every person to express any opinion, including Rabbi Mali. I have written more than once that I oppose the ban on Holocaust denial, for example, and of course on expressing Kahanist positions and the like. Where did you see anything different in my words here? What does that have to do with the question of whether Rabbi Mali is right, and whether his words are appropriate? And did I say to shut him up? If I criticize his words, does that mean that I am in favor of shutting him up? Are you sure you are with us?
3. These poskim were mentioned and not cited. Everyone knows them (for example, Maimonides on calling for peace in the Amalek war and many more).
4. A position can be attributed to someone who writes incorrect things and uses nicknames instead of reasoning. But I, unlike you, reasoned my words well and showed why his words are evil and stupid. I did not see any counterargument in your words. And if he thinks that preventing the transfer of orphaned children to Judea will benefit the abductees, then he is even more of an idiot than I thought.
[By the way, you did not mention medical treatment. On the contrary, I wrote that if he had argued that they should be killed, I would understand. But preventing them from family (and not medical) treatment is evil folly. It is worth reading before responding.]
Finally, I suggest that this time for a change, you read carefully and think before you respond. Note that none of your arguments so far have been relevant.
I am a guest on your forum and of course you have the right to say what you want, but to silence and say about anyone who did not go in your direction that he is speaking from the gut, is not true, not true (and maybe not nice either). I will try to remain silent in the meantime.
1-2 – I did not say for or against Rabbi Mali. You simply criticized his words and simply emphasized that he did provide balances to his words, that is all. If your criticism is only about his starting point (that he claims that in Medina it is permissible to kill and you believe that it is not), then I said that you were not able at all (and in fact did not try) to convince with any logical argument why he is not right and you are. So I do not understand who here is responding from the gut.
3- Okay, well. It is also permissible to convert a person from the seed of Amalek. And therefore?
4 – Again from the gut. If he thinks that preventing the transfer will benefit the abductees, he may be wrong, but that is your position. In the article itself you wrote that ’if that were the case, it would be a legitimate consideration… but of course these are nonsense.. Therefore it is clear to me that this is a Pavlovian reaction of frustrated people’. All these sentences are not reasoned, in my opinion (maybe I am thinking from my gut and do not understand, but I see them as an expression of a position and nothing more). The transition between your decision that it is revenge is not reasoned.
Regarding the actual medical/family difference – I was indeed not precise, and I apologize.
As for the substance of the matter, there is no reason in it.
I see that there is really no point in continuing. Reasons are not the playing field here.
You simply won't believe. Fools? You spare these wicked people? He who shows mercy to wicked people will end up being cruel to merciful people. How lucky I am to have left the army.
There is indeed a tendency (in my opinion, unacceptable) to express the pain of the enemy during war. As Naomi Shemer beautifully expressed:
“There is an argument that the middle house of “Jerusalem of Gold” is inhumane, because it does not consider the Arabs.
Amos Oz said: What does it mean: “The water cisterns are dry, the market square is empty”?
It is full of Arabs, it is full of water. Joy and happiness.
What does it mean: “No one goes down to the Dead Sea”?
In my opinion, I saw Arab women going down all the time.
For me, let's start with the big one, a world that is empty of Jews is a dead planet for me, I am terribly sorry.
And the Land of Israel when it is empty of Jews is desolate and empty for me.
And I think that…. The Arabs have their poets, thank God, and their poetesses are very good at expressing their longings. I can only express my longings.
And it has already been said that during war the muses die.
And yet, if we do so, let us address the real tragedy that is befalling the Gazans – The alternative that Israel offers, which is much more humane and which the hypocritical world will not accept, is the alternative of voluntary or involuntary immigration of anyone who identifies with the Hamas movement (i.e. 70% of Palestinians, according to a survey published by Dr. Khalil Shakaki, the well-known Palestinian pollster, a survey from which we can learn that even today, after the Palestinians have paid such a heavy price for Hamas' crimes, 71% of this population believe that it was right to carry out the October 7 attack, 70% continue to support Hamas and are satisfied with it. Only 5% — a mere five percent — believe that this organization is responsible for the terrible suffering caused to the population).
And as Middle East scholar Benny Morris (who is not suspected of being far-right) said: “There are circumstances in history in which ethnic cleansing is justified. I know that this concept is completely negative in 21st century discourse, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide, I prefer ethnic cleansing.
………..
Regarding the law of a persecutor, in the Mishnah Sanhedrin 3rd. there appear 3 cases “who save with their lives”, the Rambam and Rashi disagreed on how to interpret the term “save with their lives”? Are they saving the persecuted or the persecutor? Rashi, who interprets the Mishnah there, writes saving the persecutor from committing the offense (“saving” his soul from sin), the Rambam in the Laws of the Murderer Chapter 1’ Positions the pursuer in preventing harm to the pursued (in effect, punishing the pursuer).
Not related to muses and poems. I'm talking about facts and awareness of them. The claim that one should not be aware of inconvenient facts is stupid, and certainly not related to the question of what you write poems about.
Your words about the transfer are not related to the discussion. I can agree with that. By the way, from the data I've heard, there is 70% support for the October events and not for Hamas. In any case, how does this comment relate to the discussion?
I commented on the dimension of punishment in the law of persecutors in a column and I also wrote in previous columns. It's not just Rashi. But of course it can't be exhaustive, because there is a law that persecutes even a minor who is not liable for punishment. There is clearly an element of defense there. However, the consideration of defense allows us to punish the persecutor before he has committed the act and not in court with all the necessary legal procedures, which is usually not permitted.
I will expand a little -
I did not write to disagree with you, but to add. I did not write that one should not be aware of the facts, but that articles such as those you mentioned in ”Haaretz” that mention facts (on one side, of course…) morning and evening only serve the enemy during wartime, and therefore I brought up Shemer that during wartime one can be from the UN and bring ”innocent facts” both in articles in Haaretz and in poetry (I understand that the impact in articles is even greater), but I do not think this is the right time to debate them too much because discussing this serves the enemy who intentionally wants to make Gazans suffer in order to reach the headlines and put the Palestinian issue on the table. The argument is not against the waiting column you wrote, but against the articles in Haaretz and the like that you mentioned.
In a survey published by Dr. Khalil Shakaki, 70% support Hamas.
Transfer's connection to the discussion is about what to do with the facts you mentioned that a tragedy is taking place in Gaza, I suggested that one does not have to see them as Amalek and destroy them, but alternatively carry out ethnic cleansing (although this is probably not feasible, just like the proposal to destroy them)
In the sense that the pit is empty, there is no water in it (Jews). When there is no water in it, then there are snakes and scorpions in it (Arabs).
Rabbi Yishek.
1. Regarding the dilemma presented by Rabbi Sherlow, we are judged by the name of the end versus the place where it is
For the sake of the end, it is clear that we are talking about a single person and not about a people whose entire essence has been destroyed since the day of the Jews, but the destruction of the people of Israel
We have a greater authority than we have for the sake of the end.
And in my opinion, Rabbi Mali was referring to this by comparing it to the absence of any soul
(It is clear that he did not also mean the destruction of the flocks and materials in Gaza as the spoils of Amalek)
Because when we are talking about a collective/people who want to destroy you, what is the point of uninvolved people here?
2. The Rabbi constantly reduces the consideration of harming the “uninvolved”
in accordance with achieving the goals of the war.
Again, what war are you talking about?
Those who we didn't kill because the goals of Cast Lead were achieved
are the ones who grew up in terror hotbeds and came back to kill us on Simchat Torah.
And those who weren't hit by iron swords because the kidnapped returned or because we eliminated Sinwar
are the ones who will kill us in another 5 years.
The question here about non-involved people is not a matter of the goals of the war one way or another
but rather about negating the threat at all costs. Hence the goals of the war that were set by
those who have been telling us for years that Hamas is being deterred.
3. The Rabbi's (exaggerated, it must be said) concern throughout the column
that any extreme and unnecessary action against the residents of Gaza is good for Hamas
and as if that's what we're missing now that Hamas will spread pictures of miserable orphans all over the world, etc.
(Oh oh oh)
I think one of the things we learned in the last war
that blood plots are still on the best-seller list of all time
Dummy bodies, hospital bombings, the flour massacre, rape in Shifa,
and all the Muslim Brotherhood stands up on its feet
(handing out figs in the market, there there)
Stage-produced cartoons are burning up the internet far more than the real ones
Through lies and manipulations, Hamas has completely destroyed Israel's legitimacy in the world
At least one worry is removed from your mind. He doesn't need authentic material.
Even if we provide him with one (I hope)
It seems you didn't read my words at all. Everything you wrote here was explicitly answered in my words.
1. I explained my argument very well in the column. I see no point in going back to it again.
2. I explained that too. The goals of the war were defined as three. If they require the killing of all Gazans – then good luck.
3. An irrelevant argument. I did not write anywhere that helping Hamas is the consideration that prevents this activity. What I wrote is that beyond the moral prohibition, there is also no practical consideration here, and therefore it is wickedness in its own right.
1. I wrote that this is the explanation in Rabbi Mali's words, and therefore the Rabbi's criticism of his words or Rabbi Charlo's dilemma is irrelevant to the people in Gaza.
2. Again, the war goals that were presented are irrelevant to our lives (perhaps relevant to our deaths) a mistake that is repeated over and over again. Those who say that there are no innocents in Gaza mean the negation of the Gaza-Arab threat, whatever it may be, in the name of its end. Maybe it is not feasible, but a legitimate aspiration for the objects of life
3. Your repeated repetition that we must not play into Hamas' hands exists and kicks in regardless of what is done right or morally or effectively.
I must write here what I anticipated would happen. I wrote that my goal was a systematic and substantive discussion, and it turns out that the last three responses are not substantive (even if their wording is moderate). The responders discuss points that I did not address, criticize points that were well answered in the column, and shift a substantive discussion to feelings and emotions. It is clear that these things are written from the gut. Unfortunately, this was to be expected, but I am mentioning it here for the benefit of future responses.
Shalom Rabbi,
I read the correspondence between you and Moshe Cohen and even if I didn't understand everything, I connected with the following argument:
You write that others argue from the gut, but even though your wording is detailed, organized and free of emotions – why is the following sentence not from the gut?
"Defense considerations are certainly relevant, and on their basis it is also possible to raise arguments that would justify killing children (who will grow up to be terrorists or accomplices). In fact, I think it is still excessive"
In the end, it is your own chatter versus the chatter of others, and when you give unflattering nicknames to the chatter of others – it gives the feeling that you are doing to others what you write so much against.
You are mixing gender with non-gender. If a person writes an intuitive answer, it is not from the gut. I have written more than once about the relationship between emotion and intuition. They are not close to each other. When someone writes irrelevant (and not unreasoned) things, it is from the gut. I do not intend to continue discussing this nonsense any longer.
Please explain the difference between the position you advocate here and the education that the Gazans provide their children with about us?
I understand the moral difference (although you claim that you come from a rational position and they are only ignorant and hateful – while ignoring those among them who are not like that and those among us who are) but still on a practical level if we establish a moral position to ignore their suffering for some self-benefit why can't they do the same?
And if both sides are legitimate in holding such opposing positions, it only makes the situation insoluble but encourages and legitimizes further suffering without recourse.
Is this a question for me? I didn't understand what the question was and how it relates to what I wrote.
There is a difference between being right and being wrong. And the fact that the wrong person thinks he is right doesn't change that fact. Beyond that, I didn't write anything about them being wrong, but about them raising monsters. Maybe raising monsters is right and maybe not. You decide that for yourself.
And finally, the fact that a situation is insoluble is not an argument. So it is insoluble.
Just a small correction - in the paragraph of “What is the justification for killing an Amalekite or Kenite baby? What did he do to us?”
Specifically Kenite is an incorrect example, if I'm not mistaken the Kenites are not from the Seven Nations, I assume that both were mentioned nearby in the column perhaps because of the last haftara in which it is written that Saul was commanded to save them before the Amalek war..
Indeed. I will correct Gargashi. 🙂
“In our correspondence, Rabbi Sherlow sent me a short post he wrote about this question (on the Facebook page called Zikim, Zik 14) and as usual he covers it well”
You write a lot that there is nothing to learn from sources, and that there is almost nothing to learn from them for today.
Why do you accept Rabbi Sherlow's teaching from sources here?
Although in Halacha one certainly learns from the sources, here the question is not entirely Halachaic. In any case, he did not learn anything from the sources, but rather presented the problem through two pertinent sources. In my remarks, I also criticized his application.
Maimonides in the Laws of Kings and Wars, Chapter 6, and also in the Mitzvot Asa 102, rules that even in the War of the Authority, if they are not interested in making peace, every adult male should be killed, and in the War of the Seven Nations and Amalek, literally everyone should be killed (it is not clear from his words what the law is in a war that is a rescue from a tyrant). Can we learn from these sources that it is possible to kill innocent people as well? (Or perhaps Maimonides also intended to kill every male if it is important for the purpose of the war)
I would appreciate an answer: Is it possible to learn something from the Rambam?
I assume that if you ask, you will be happy for an answer. I can't always answer right away.
For our purposes, the most you can learn from the Rambam is his halakhic position. That doesn't mean that this is the halakhic position because it's not certain that he is right, and it certainly doesn't say anything about morality.
In his own words, killing males probably has a warlike meaning. Otherwise, who hates males?!
Simply put, the Rambam states that every male must be killed, chapter 20, that every male must be killed. Are there any opinions that disagree with the Rambam?
If the meaning is warlike, why must every adult male, including elderly citizens, be killed?
Does the Rambam's method mean that every adult male resident of Gaza must be killed?
There is no way to pass a line within the males. Therefore, there is a principled permit to kill them all. If you see a disabled old man, then do not kill him.
I answered above.
As a secularist and a leftist, the sentence that interested me the most here is this
“I have written more than once that in my opinion in the case of Gaza there is justification for doing everything to achieve the goals of the war, namely the elimination of Hamas, the return of the kidnapped and ensuring security for the entire State of Israel. Everything that is required to achieve these goals is morally justified in my opinion, including starving children and the mass elimination of those not involved”
This may be surprising, but I agree with you. What I do not agree with is that it is justified for short-term goals such as “eliminating Hamas” (which will not happen) and ensuring security (perhaps we will ensure security from Gaza, but we will weaken security in other sectors). The world's attitude towards us is very relevant, because our security depends much more on it than on eliminating Hamas. And even if you think I am wrong “and because we imagine we will do something?” In other words, is it justified to commit genocide because we imagine that it will solve a problem for us?
And on another topic, you say here that there is no problem if there is a contradiction between Halacha and morality. To the best of my memory, I heard you claim that the existence of morality is proof of the existence of God. How do you reconcile these two claims?
It is clear that eliminating Hamas is part of bringing security. Eliminating it has no value in itself and does not justify any immoral action. In the goals of the war, this is not defined as an independent goal. They simply said that eliminating it is not enough and that we need to ensure that there is security (so that no other threat will come in place of Hamas).
The world's attitude towards us is certainly important. I did not understand where you saw otherwise in my words.
Regarding Halacha and Morality, look for a column on Halacha and Morality (481?).
I really don't think it's possible to bring security without eliminating Hamas - another battalion in Nahal Oz, and starting to listen to the female observers will do the job. And Hamas could have been eliminated without war, but through economic and political pressure, the persecution of its leaders around the world, and other things that weren't done.
Maybe Column 541: Halacha and Morality: The Theoretical Picture
1) Why do you think this is baseless revenge, if you are aware that even after saving them they will not be Zionists? The basis for revenge is not to save my hater, who I have seen how far he can go. Let him treat himself at Shifa and be grateful that this hospital is still standing. And would it be moral (theoretically) to send him for treatment in Egypt/Europe?
2) Isn't revenge a punishment beyond what is due according to the law? (Extra”a)
For example: Let's say we have already eliminated Hamas, which is what we ”must”do. Now, in order to take revenge, I am cutting off the electricity and water that I provide to the residents of Gaza (in my opinion, they are the fertile ground for all atrocities and the world of Gazan terrorism will not stop) and sending them to be big kids and take care of themselves.