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Ontological arguments

שו”תCategory: philosophyOntological arguments
asked 2 years ago

Regarding the ontological arguments that you discuss in your book “The First Founding” regarding Anselm’s argument for proving God, it seems that it is possible to propose such an ontological argument that is the argument given in the problem:
I can conceive of something smaller than which it is inconceivable, and if the thing exists in my mind as existing, then it is not the smallest thing that can be conceived, and since the thing that exists in my mind necessarily exists only in my mind and does not exist in my mind as existing in reality, it follows that the whole existence of the thing is only in my mind and not in my mind as existing in reality.
And it necessarily exists only in my mind, and has no other attribute at all, since it is not a thing that exists as a given existence and has other attributes, but rather it exists only in my mind, and its attribute is what I define it to be in my mind alone, and in another way it can be argued that to the extent that it has any other definition and any other attribute that exists in it, it is found that it is not the smallest thing that can be conceived, since it is possible to conceive of something smaller than it that does not have an attribute, it is found that the definition smaller than it is inconceivable, its meaning – it lacks any attribute that can be conceived, and in the totality of these attributes is the attribute of existence, since a thing that exists in my mind as an existence is greater than the thing that exists in my mind as X and nothing more.
And if the same thing were something smaller than which it is inconceivable to occur to us as actually existing, then we must necessarily know that existence does not require any attribute and existence itself is devoid of any attribute, and if the existence of the same thing is possible, then the idea in my mind is something smaller than which it is inconceivable, and its entire idea in my mind is in its possibility as existing in my mind as existing, but since the thing that exists in my mind is smaller than the thing that exists in my mind as existing, it is found that something exists in my mind that does not exist.
And this is not possible since existence is distilled from existence in the system in which it arises, and it is not possible for the existence of a thing in my mind to be that it does not exist outside my mind, and that it is devoid of any existence whatsoever, that it does not give existence to what is in my mind that which does not exist outside of it but exists in it, and that there is an existence whose entire content of existence is that it does not exist at all.
And yet I imagine in my mind the existence of the smallest conceivable thing, but this leads to something that is not feasible, to have in my mind something that does not exist in my mind at all, and this is its existence in my mind.
Ostensibly, this actually leads us to Kant’s argument about conceiving, that it is not possible to conceive of something definable and force something about the world from this definition or give it any validity.
Or do we have a necessity that the existent is not greater than the non-existent, but rather that existence in the mind as existent is placing the thing on another plane of perception of the thing, similar to what Kant said regarding actual existence, one can say regarding existence in the mind, and existence in my mind not as existing in reality is the imagination of what exists in my mind as existing equally.
Although this argument does not establish the matter in a different way than we initially imagined, and this is different from Anselm’s argument in which he establishes the thing that “exists in his mind” as “exists in his mind as existing,” which is the beauty of his argument, but if a conclusion can be drawn from the mere raising of the mind, which is the flourishing of an understandable definition, in this argument we are led to something that is understandable in our mind, but on the other hand it is not possible, unlike just something that is not understandable, such as a round triangle, which cannot initially be conceived in our mind, and moreover, because there necessarily exists in our mind something smaller than which it cannot be conceived in our mind.
But perhaps it is possible to argue that the matter of raising as existing is something that does not contradict the understanding of the definition, and this is different from this argument that is possible and after analyzing the definition it becomes incomprehensible, since we say that something exists in my mind, and in fact, according to the continuation of the definition of the thing, we are actually saying that nothing exists, and therefore the smallest thing that exists in my mind that can be conceived, its one and only necessary attribute is existence in my mind, and if existence in my mind requires something, then this thing is the attribute of the smallest thing that can be conceived, and this is the smallest thing that has this attribute and apart from this it is not capable of an attribute.
Thank you very much, I would appreciate a response.


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0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 2 years ago

I’m sorry, but no. Your assumption 2 is a riddle, and I didn’t understand it.


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ח׳ replied 2 years ago

I didn't understand, Assumption 2 is Anselm's assumption that something greater than it cannot be conceived smaller than the same thing, once it has been conceived as existing, I would appreciate clarification.

מיכי Staff replied 2 years ago

I would also be very happy for clarity. You write a vague and unclear sentence and expect me to understand it on my own? “Something greater than something that exists” is a sentence that means that there is something greater than something (other?) that exists. A completely meaningless sentence. If you ask me to read what you wrote – the minimum is to write it clearly and not in sloppy wording. And certainly after I ask for clarification.
To your question, Anselm's argument says that the greatest thing that can be conceived must appear in my mind as existing because if it does not appear as existing then it is not the greatest. In parallel with your case, the smallest thing that came to my mind must appear there as non-existent because if it did appear as existing it would not be the smallest.
So far I am with you. But from here on out again I do not understand.
The only thing I understood from the rest is that you claim that from this it follows that that small thing is necessarily devoid of attributes. I did not understand why.
In short, right, there is something that is the smallest that can be imagined and it is something that cannot be imagined as existing. What's the problem with that?

ח׳ replied 2 years ago

Apologies, I was immersed in the matter and wrote from it, and there the formulations are in this language.
Next, I want to argue that the smallest thing must be devoid of attributes, because any attribute that comes to mind as an attribute of that smallest thing, it is possible to conceive of the same thing without that attribute.
And since thus the same thing is found to be devoid of attributes, and even devoid of the ability to exist, is it possible to conceive of something that is simply absolute nothingness.
Or by necessity and the only attribute it has is existence because it is the only one that can be the smallest, and then we find that we must conceive of the same thing as existing, because it is its only attribute, and we have found something that exists only by necessity if we are not skeptical.

מיכי Staff replied 2 years ago

I disagree that it has no properties. An object without a property is not necessarily smaller than one with a property. There are properties that are smaller.
Beyond that, the property that it can exist is not equivalent to its existence.

ח׳ replied 2 years ago

Is it possible for an entity to exist only in its ability to exist, and this is the only property it has? Ignoring the issue of the properties of a small thing.

מיכי Staff replied 2 years ago

Maybe so. I don't know.

ח׳ replied 2 years ago

But does the very statement that its existence is capable of existing presuppose that it must exist?

מיכי Staff replied 2 years ago

I hope you understand this sentence. I don't. The possibility of existing is a property of it. I don't understand what it means to be its very existence, and I don't see how it relates to the question of whether it exists.
I think we've exhausted it.

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