Specialities of the Land of Israel

Good week, Rabbi.
There are also prophecies that did not come true - what is the relationship between them and those that did come true, does this make them irrelevant or weaken them?
And another somewhat embarrassing question, just to remove doubt - does the Rabbi know that the desolation in Israel is an unparalleled phenomenon, that there is not even a historical precedent that is even remotely similar to it?

It is clear that unfulfilled prophecies weaken the claim. I have already written here in the past that I have not conducted a survey in the Bible of what was fulfilled and what was not (it is also difficult to do so, because the language of the prophecies is vague and interpretive flexibility allows them to be reconciled in many cases).
I did not check.

1. So what is the power of the prophecies that are indeed concrete, the return of Zion and the land of desolation - about which the Rabbi wrote (in the link above) that they do indeed strengthen the unique phenomena - and are they weakened?

2. And why did the Rabbi write (in the first response) that the desolation in Israel is a unique phenomenon? Because if it is not unique then the (weakened) prophecy is also quite predictable?

Can I ask M for help regarding the desolation?
Thank you very much.

With me, I've already explained this.
1. Prophecies that have come true are confirmation of the reliability of the Torah. It is difficult to test this systematically, so it is not decisive. And it still has significance.
2. This is a unique phenomenon, but I have not done extensive research to see to what extent. This joins the other considerations, as I explained in the fifth notebook.

Regarding the research on the Shimmon, could the Rabbi direct the question to M?

I referred

Thank you very much.

I don't know how to compare it to the rest of the world. I do know how to talk about the state of the Land of Israel, which is, to be honest, a bit complex.

Basically, it's not true to say that the land was desolate for 2,000 years since the destruction of the Temple. In fact, during the Byzantine period, the land was extremely prosperous. What is true, and this is an interesting phenomenon, is that the Land of Israel maintained a Jewish majority until almost the 8th century AD (i.e., the end of the Byzantine period). At the end of this period, the Jews suddenly disappear (for various reasons and so on) and the Land of Israel does indeed become the wasteland that we all know from legends. Indeed, this does not mean that they did not build at all and that there were no people, but in general, the state of the land, despite attempts to settle it, was extremely poor (except for a few singular points).

I do not have data on other countries, but it is not clear that such is needed. The discussion is not about Israel's state vis-à-vis Egypt, but about the state of the land vis-à-vis other desirable places (say, vis-à-vis Europe). That is, apparently the Sahara Desert was also miserable, but Israel is different from it, as soon as most of the Jews disappeared, it becomes a desert, even though the whole world and its people wanted its best. And this is indeed, to all I know, an interesting phenomenon.

Therefore, the urban legend about the desolation of the land since the destruction of the Temple is wrong, but indeed, since the disappearance of the masses of its Jews, there is indeed a phenomenon that corresponds to the prophecy.

Thank you very much for the response.
If I understood correctly, this phenomenon is interesting because it has no logical explanation and it doesn't matter if it is a special phenomenon that hasn't happened anywhere else?
But from what I understood from Rabbi Michael's article, the Rabbi brings up strange phenomena and also emphasizes their uniqueness?

In the 19th century, the Jewish population in Palestine dwindled at the end of the Byzantine period and at the beginning of the Muslim conquest.

It seems that two main reasons led to the decline of the Jewish population in Palestine at the end of the Byzantine period and at the beginning of the Muslim conquest:

(a) The Jewish rebellion against Byzantine rule and their attempt to help the Persians conquer the land, an attempt that was brutally suppressed by Emperor Heraclius (612).

(b) The heavy land taxes imposed by the Muslim government on non-Muslims. Most of the Jews in Palestine were farmers who could not afford the burden of the taxes, and therefore many abandoned their land and emigrated to other countries where they could earn a living from trade and crafts.

A similar process went through the Jews of Babylon, until in a reply from 785 the Gaon justifies the regulation of collecting a written tax on movables because most Jews do not have land (unlike in the days of the Talmud, when most Jews were farmers). On the separation of the Jewish people from farming as a characteristic of the Middle Ages, see the beginning of Professor Avraham Grossman's book Hasidism and Rebellions.

With best regards, Sht. Levinger

With me –

As I explained, the phenomenon is probably rare.

Regarding an explanation – In my opinion, hypotheses can always be raised, but the existence of an explanation does not negate the argument of uniqueness and prophecy.

Hello M. I also wanted to ask about the very unique survival of our sacred Torah. Are there no other peoples who claim to preserve ancient traditions? Thank you, and sorry for the inconvenience.

I don't know what you mean by ancient traditions.
There are other ancient religions and some of them are probably older than us (like Hinduism). In any case, it is indeed a rare phenomenon for a religion to survive, especially after persecution.

Does this mean that there are no more religions that survived persecution outside of Israel?

Dear M, I ask because you wrote that it is rare for a religion to survive, but you also wrote that there are other ancient religions that survived - so it is not rare…
If this is not a special phenomenon (unique in history) then this claim is not significant.

On the 15th of Av, 2018

Layati – Greetings,

Ancient peoples or religions can survive through inertia, when the people of the people or religion live in relative peace in their land. But the phenomenon of a people who were exiled and scattered to all corners of the world and everywhere were persecuted and humiliated so that they would abandon their religion, and in all exiles and persecutions stubbornly maintained their national and religious identity – has no brother or sister in history. The only people who maintained their identity despite exile, dispersion, persecution and humiliation is the ‘Azin of the nations of Israel’!

With greetings, Sh”ts Levinger

Thank you. Just to clear up any doubt - do you know this from historical research?

With me –

What?? An event that happens 3 times in 1000 attempts is not a rare thing because there is more than one case??

In addition, see also Ma'ale's words about persecutions, etc. that turn this comparison into a problematic one (and these are also Shtzel's words)

Hinduism also survived Muslim attacks. However, it is clear that Hinduism had a strong back that made it very difficult for Muslims in India. They never ruled the entire continent. The majority of the population was in favor of Hinduism and there were always Indian rulers who supported Hinduism. Nor did the Muslim sultans always suppress Hinduism. The Mughals, for example, were quite tolerant and tried to combine Hinduism and Islam.

By the way, for the Gemara, the very survival of the Jews is a manifestation of their fear of God. This is not something new, but something that the Jews have felt for 2500 years.

On the occasion of the 15th of Av,

Lil'D – Shalom Rav,

You have beautifully distinguished between the existence of the Hindus, a people of hundreds of millions who live in their own country and who constitute an overwhelming majority, and the people of Israel who survive despite being a persecuted minority everywhere, who not only maintained their identity in relation to the dominant majority, but also influenced their spirit and instilled some of their values in the peoples around them, although it was precisely their spiritual influence that intensified the hatred of the surrounding people for them, refusing to give the Jews ‘credit’ for what they received from them.

.However, regarding your words that for about 2500 years the Jews have marveled at the miracle of their survival, it should be noted that the people of Israel have been trying unsuccessfully to destroy them since the beginning of their creation over 3000 years ago. Merneptah the Egyptian proudly declares, “Israel is lost, he has no seed.” Mesha the king of Moab boasts, “And Israel is lost, the world is lost.” Where are they and where are we?

The wonder of our existence naturally also stems from divine providence that intervenes to save us even when the tortoise seems lost and hopeless, but no less from the vision and consciousness of mission that thousands of years of Torah have instilled in our souls. We live and act not only from the inertia of the past, but from the hope that we will bring humanity a better future of values, as Dr. Jacob Herzog expressed in his debate with the historian Toynbee, and in his book, “A People Who Dwells Alone.”

Best regards, Schach Levinger

See the work of Yitzhak Lior and Azzana, ‘The Faithful Foundations in the Political Work of Dr. Jacob Herzog’ on the ‘Daat’ website.

To M. But when Rabbi Michael wrote in the article that this is a "very unique phenomenon," for me it is no less unique than the other claims mentioned in the article (the weight is unique, anti-Semitism, etc.), if I understood the Rabbi correctly (correct me if I'm wrong). Regarding what Shtsel wrote that only a person who knew a lot of persecution managed to survive, is that safe?

On the 15th of Av, 2018

Layati – Hello,

You are invited to take an atlas and check out Eretz Eretz, to see if there is another people who were scattered to all corners of the world and persecuted everywhere, and yet not only maintained their identity despite all the persecution, but also stirred up culturally and influenced the values of the entire world, and for dessert: returned to their country and renewed their independence after years of exile and a terrible Holocaust.

When you find another such wonderful people, please share your discovery with the readers of the site, maybe we can go there to learn from them the secret of their miraculous existence!

Best regards, Sh”ts Levinger

I was referring to the claim that it is rare, and not to the Rabbi's analysis.

In any case, given the persecutions, etc., I am not aware of a similar phenomenon and it seems to me that the Rabbi's words about unique survival are not true (it should be added that this is about persecution and prominence in many areas at the same time).

I once saw a comparative analysis of other peoples in some book and I was impressed that this was indeed the case, but I do not have the facts before me. And even one or two cases do not detract from the facts in my opinion.

I understand, thank you very much M and also to Shchel, may you be blessed!

On the 15th of Av, 2018

To M, Greetings,

There is one exception that comes somewhat close to the resilience of the Jewish people, and they are the Gypsies who have held on in Europe despite the dispersion and persecution since the 14th-15th centuries, and I celebrated their adherence to their culture and heritage in my response, “The Gypsies and Their Virtues,” on column 61 of the website of the Law, “On Gypsies and Thieves.”

And yet, one cannot compare a 700-year existence to a 3,500-year existence, and one cannot compare a miserable and degenerate existence on the margins of society to the existence of a people who are “a light in the world” culturally and ethically.

And as I explained above (in my response to Ya”D), the strength of the Jewish people lies in the fact that the existence of the Jewish people is not only in the inertia of the past, but in the vision and consciousness of mission that our Torah and our prophets have instilled in us, demanding from us a constant moral elevation so that we may fulfill our destiny to be the moral pioneers of humanity!

Best regards, Sh”ts Levinger

The Gypsies kept their music and clothing but converted to Christianity and adopted quite a bit of the surrounding culture and religion was the main cause of persecution against them for most of the 700 years except for almost the Nazi period (unlike Judaism, which preserved what it was persecuted for, not folklore).

In addition, unlike the Jews, they unfortunately remained in the wastelands and were not persecuted on the one hand and prospered on the other, and there is more to this.

Hello M. Regarding the book that compares the survival of nations - what is it called and where can it be obtained?

M Hello. What about the persecuted Indians, are there any ancient traditions that they preserve today?

For the Itai,
there are no ancient traditions that they preserve.

What about the Yazidis, who maintain unique customs despite being persecuted?

The Yazidis have been living for centuries as an independent and fighting tribe in their own land in Kurdistan. Like all Kurdish tribes, they are partners in wars against each other, and in contrast, the Jews survived for thousands of years even after they were deprived of any military power. An attempt to compare the Yazidis to the Jews can only be made in 2000 years!

Best regards, Sch”z Levinger

Didn't the Ottoman Empire persecute them for a significant period of time? And what use would the Yazidis' meager military strength be?

Ottoman rule was lax everywhere. Beyond the demand for tax payment, the governors were not particularly interested in the internal affairs of the tribes, and certainly not in a remote mountainous region like Kurdistan. Those who were particularly persecuted there by the Kurdish tribes were the Jews and Nestorians, see the article by Dr. Markus Institute, "Jews of Kurdistan", on the "Da'at" website.

Best regards, Schutz Levinger

From what I understood from the article on the Daat website, the situation of the Jews was easier under Ottoman rule than under Persian rule, so this probably indicates the situation in the rest of Kurdistan, which was probably better.
But regarding the Yazidis - they are different from the Jews in that they are a separate religion with a different and slightly pagan belief, so could it be that the Ottoman government alienated them more because of their differences?

I understood from Wikipedia that there is a book called “The Path of Wild Kurdistan” which presents (among other things) a fairly accurate picture of the great suffering of the Yazidis under Ottoman rule, so they were persecuted as Satan worshippers - that's what it says there.
Do you know what it is about?