The age of the great generation as evidence of private supervision

What about the Ramchal, the miraculous advisor who died young, or those like Rashi, Rambam and others who did not reach an extreme age and are older than anyone you listed. There are also religious figures from other religions who have lived longer, including Christian saints.
There are also studies that show that a life of penance, eating little and living a carefree life because you trust in God prolongs life.

And you who hold fast to the LORD your God are all alive today

The righteous in their death are called alive, and the wicked in their life are called dead – So what is the relevance of biological age?

Response to Micah.

I will preface by saying that my intention is to check averages, and not necessarily every great-grandfather must live much longer.

1. As I wrote, in my humble opinion, it was clear in all the examples I gave that these were great-grandfathers even before they reached the average age of mortality (it is better to read my entire message before responding)
Can you give an example of a great-grandfather who was not already clear at an age before the average age of mortality that he was a great-grandfather?

2 +3. So let's compare. For example, against the following populations: professors + doctors. These are people who probably receive inquiries even at very late ages.
Although this is not a very decent comparison (according to the rabbis), because you can bet that professors + doctors move themselves even at late ages, and they probably sleep more than 2-3-4 hours a night. But let's move on.
And one more thing, what is this parameter of “approaching you”?
Do you have any evidence that this can be used as an aid to longevity?
Is a mechanic who continues to operate a busy garage also supposed to live longer?

4. You wrote about “many such” who were designated as great men of a generation and passed away. You can include them in the statistics’, but there should also be reliable information about the average age of death in that year. You are welcome to mention names here.

In the meantime, other rabbis that can be included in the calculation (for the benefit of my theory):
Rabbi Yaakov Edelstein Zazukel, Rabbi Kaduri Zazukel, the Lubavitcher Rebbe Zazukel, Rabbi Steinman Zazukel, Rabbi Avraham Shapira Zazukel, Rabbi Slobieczyk Zazukel, Rabbi Wasner Zazukel, Rabbi Aryeh Levin Zazukel.
Of course, names that also come to mind who died at an average age (more or less):
Rabbi Eliyahu Zazukel, Rabbi Goren Zazukel.

Response to:
A. Rashi and Rambam, to the best of my memory, died after the age of 60. I don't know if there is data on mortality in those years, but it is possible that it was even above the average age of death.

B. Regarding Ramchal and the miracle advisor (you can also include Rabbi Nachman) – If you have data on the average age of death in the years they died, you can include them in the calculation. Of course, there is no shortage of examples of those who extended their lives in past periods.

C. There are studies that show that faith in God and a carefree life extend life, right (and maybe it is also private providence?), but according to the data I threw out, the age of the rabbis is really old, and not just “above average”.
But we will wait for a proper examination

Life expectancy was low in the past, mainly because of infant mortality and epidemics. In those days, it was possible to reach the ages of 80 and 90, and this is documented.

You take those who reached extreme ages and ignore those who did not. I was recently browsing an ultra-Orthodox news site. Every other day there was an article there about a rabbi who died young. Think about how many of them could have been great men of their generation.
In other words, those who are today great men of their generation are those who reached older ages.
There are also great rabbis today who died young.

Another problem is that according to this theory, it can be believed that rabbis who live longer are more righteous than their peers. For example, Kabbalists tend to live longer. Rabbi Yitzhak Daman of Acre lived to be 94. Much longer than the Rambam. Is he necessarily right? Is he more righteous? Is there more providence over him?

I do not see this as necessarily providence. Religious Christians also live longer, Christian saints lived no less than the great men of their generation. Does this mean that they are under supervision and this proves the correctness of Christianity?
An objective person, such as one who does not see this as the correctness of Christianity, will not see this as the correctness of any other religion.

Nazi criminals also usually live longer. Does this mean that they are righteous? Of course you will say that they are being paid here so that they can suffer above. But that is already an escape because
1. This can also be argued about rabbis. Because they rejected Jesus/Mohammed, they are being paid here to go to hell.
2. There are also Nazi criminals who died young (for example, Reinhard Heydrich).

Living with faith leads to a life with fewer worries and such people live longer. In my opinion, this also explains the fact that war criminals live longer. Psychopaths who do not feel emotions live more relaxed lives.
In my opinion, this is a more reasonable explanation because it explains and predicts things that supervision of a specific religion does not predict. For example, other religions also prolong life.

I have now done a search for several Christian saints. All of them lived for over 90 years. Some lived in the first centuries AD in abject poverty. This does not represent anything, it is cherry picking in a similar way to your selective selection.

Anthony the Great, the founder of monasticism, died at the age of 105
Marcus of Egypt died at the age of 91
Paul of Metamorphosis died at the age of 90
Francis of Paola 91.

There are of course others who lived longer that I have not listed, there are of course those who did not live longer, some were brutally executed in persecution, some died young, some died old but not at an extreme age. I have deliberately only included those who reached at least 90 years of age.

A,

I do not claim to know how private supervision works. This is in contrast to Micah who thinks he has the formula that supposedly should have existed because “we are supposed to see”.
I do not know why Nazi criminals reach very late ages, and why righteous young men die at young ages. I have no idea.
Regarding believing Gentiles, it may be that very believing Gentiles receive very serious private supervision. I do not know.

Regarding what you wrote about people in the past reaching the ages of 80-90, it is true that they would, but one can guess that life expectancy was not higher than in the 1970s here in this country (say), that the average age of death was 70 (and I am really coming towards you here), and that it was not because of infant mortality alone, but simply for the simple reason that medicine was much behind compared to today.

Regarding your claim that you made a selective choice - a legitimate argument.
I am addressing both you and Miki and asking you to show me great men of a generation who died young. I think that for all the great men of a generation I mentioned, it was clear from a young age that most of them (and maybe even all of them) were giants of giants. It was decided that they were great men of a generation only because they reached the age of 70 or something like that.

I asked for only one simple thing -
to examine the age of death of rabbis who we all agree are "great men of a generation" (i.e. the greatest righteous men) compared to the average age of death. This is my suggestion.

An example of another great man of a generation: Baba Sali Zatzukel.

Have a good week

*That they were decided to be great of a generation just because they reached the age of 70 or something like that.

The point was of course:

That *not* that they were decided to be great of a generation just because they reached the age of 70 or something like that.

On second thought, I noticed that naive or Kabbalistic believers lived longer than rational thinkers, religious philosophers, or thinking people.
Although I don't have statistical data, at first glance it seems that way.

The saints who lived longer were monks or devout believers, not profound theologians. Among the Jews, these were Kabbalists or naive believers, usually.
For example, Rambam did not live relatively long. There are of course exceptions, such as the Ramchel, and the miracle worker, but they died of illness.
I have heard of Buddhists who also lived long despite living in poverty. It is difficult to claim providence for them.

In my opinion, there is a simple natural explanation for this. Living without worries and trust in God (as in Western religions) or understanding that everything is temporary (as in Eastern religions) and there is no need to worry about anything.

I am not claiming that there is no providence at all, but it is difficult to provide evidence from the argument that religious people live longer. Such a strong claim requires very strong evidence, in my opinion.
The natural explanation is much more plausible.

I don't understand why you're still asking me to bring up a great man of a generation who died young. I brought up some of the greatest who didn't live particularly long and even died young and it's agreed upon that almost all of them are great.
Likewise, great men of a generation mostly become such when they are old, few were declared as such, for example in their 20s (unless they are particularly geniuses and how many of them are there? There are also almost no revolutionary scientists in their 20s and 30s, so does that guarantee that scientists will live past these ages? Likewise, religious society in general and Jewish society in particular gives great importance to older religious leaders, so they are considered great).
Even in Christianity, saints who didn't live long died as martyrs or were exceptionally righteous.

I didn't do a survey of the average age of the great rabbis, but when you go through them one by one, you see quite a few who didn't live to a particularly old age. Sometimes you see some who did live to an extremely old age, but even those are exceptional.
And as I said, I don't rule out the possibility that the average life expectancy of believers and religious people is higher than the general population. In my opinion, they live longer than the average person, but again, the question is whether there is absolute statistical significance here, and even if so, whether there is no natural explanation. And as I noted earlier, the natural explanation seems more likely to me. A supernatural explanation requires much stronger evidence than you have provided.

There are still people today who can be great men of their generation. When browsing the square or in the Haredi rooms, you can occasionally find an article about a young man who was considered a great man and died young. One such person undoubtedly has the potential to be a great man of his generation. But he did not get there. It is not unreasonable to claim that a person who is a great man and remains alive for a long time will probably become one of the great men of his generation.

In every field, a person who is considered a great man is expected to have a great future. All he has to do is persevere and stay alive. As soon as this happens, he realizes his potential.

Hello,

I don't want to deal with data on the ages of rabbis from years when we don't have data on life expectancy in that country.
Therefore, I won't include the Ramchal and Rabbi Nachman in the equation, but neither will the Ramban and the Gera (who lived relatively long).

I really don't understand you. How exactly do you determine who is great? Isn't the Rambam great? Isn't the Ramchal great? These are accepted by everyone (maybe not every detail in their system, but they are certainly accepted in general).
You determine in advance who is considered great and that is the one who has reached an extreme age. To me, this seems like the desired assumption using the fallacy of “no real Scot”.
Is Rabbi Kanievsky greater than the Rambam or the Ramchal? I find it hard to believe. Even among the learned Haredim, he is not considered as great as Rabbi Elyashiv or Rabbi Edelstein. And those are certainly not as great as those I mentioned, when even they will admit it (generational decline).

I can also determine that all Christian saints lived over 100 years. Are there saints who did not reach this age? They are not real saints.
The same goes for atheists in Siberia and thus actually claiming that they live longer than religious people in a Western country. This is delusional.

By the way, Okinawa, Sardinia and another Greek island whose name I forgot have the highest life expectancy in the world and most people there live past 90 and a large part even reach 100 years of age. Does this prove anything? Some researchers claim that because of popular Christianity in these areas there is a custom of fasting several days a year and this is one of the reasons for the high life expectancy.
Other reasons we mentioned, organic food produced using traditional methods, developed community and family life, walking miles every day, physical work in the fields or at sea, a carefree life, religious faith.
And again, in my opinion, the natural explanation is more reasonable.

There is another explanation. Most of the great men of the generation grew up and lived most of their years on the verge of starvation. Even after the establishment of the state, they lived in great physical deprivation. There are studies on how the body adapts to conditions of starvation and gains longevity in return. Mice that were constantly starved in the laboratory lived relatively longer than mice that were fattened. It is reasonable to assume that the next generation of Torah great men who lived in their youth in relatively greater economic prosperity than the previous generation will see a decline in life expectancy.

A’

It's not just me who determines.
There is an entry on Wikipedia called the Greatest of the Generation.
There are rabbis who are agreed upon by all of Israel to be the Greatest of the Generation. A very, very limited number.
There are very old rabbis who do not fall into this category.
I did not write that the Rambam and the Ramach”el are not the Greatest of the Generation, of course they are. We simply cannot include them in the statistics, because there is no data on the general life expectancy during their lifetimes.
I suggested something to check, you can of course make the questions harder or come up with your own suggestions about Christian saints and whatever you want.

1.D
Did the Greatest of the Generation of our time (those for whom it is possible to check what I suggested) live lives on the verge of starvation?
Even so, it is still worth checking the age of the Greatest of the Generation compared to the average life expectancy, and comparing it to the study on the starved mice.
Suppose we find that a great generation lives 10 years longer than the average person, and this is after using the control that Simichi suggested – people who continue to keep animals because they are approached like doctors or older mechanics who operate a garage even at a very old age or business owners who are worldly.
Did the mice that survived the famine survive orders of magnitude better than the fattened mice, as did the great generation survive better than the average person?

[In the biography of Rabbi Ovadia called “Abir HaRoiim,” it is told of his poverty that on Fridays (apparently there were no yeshivahs at that time) he would study all day in synagogue and take one banana with him]

According to Wikipedia, there is no agreement at all on what a great generation is. Great generation in Haredi terminology is generally an invention of recent years. In ancient times, the meaning was different, and even in Haredi society, there is no agreement on who is considered a great generation, and each faction selectively chooses its great generation.
In many cases, they are chosen because they are older or elder rabbis (like Rabbi Kanievsky, who received the title of “Sar HaTorah” because he was not a particularly significant Rosh Yeshiva or Poske).

In my opinion, as I wrote, the life expectancy of rabbis who are considered great should be weighed according to distinct criteria and certainly not allowed to be chosen selectively.

It is also not true that there is no data on life expectancy in those periods. There is information on life expectancy as early as the Roman Empire. It is certainly less accurate than today, but the estimates still give a good approximation.

A I would suggest as a joke that the oldest person in the world could be defined as a 119-year-old Japanese woman.
But seriously, I wonder if there were rabbis or religious figures of other religions who were the oldest people of their time. Because in recent years, most of the oldest people have not been theologians or religious leaders, although there have been some devout religious people among them, mainly Christians.

As written above, who is considered a great generation is not agreed upon by everyone. And why should there be a difference between a great rabbi and a great rabbi? Why limit the providence only to great rabbis who were arbitrarily chosen for the most part.

In any case, I decided to check it out according to your method. I went to Wikipedia and checked out the rabbis who appear there.
Some reached extreme ages. But there were some who did not live long enough and appeared there.

Among them are
Father Shmuel Auerbach (who did not die young but did not reach a particularly impressive age in our time) Rabbi Gestetter, Rabbi Chaim Grodzansky, Rabbi Dov Weidenfeld, Rabbi Aharon Rokach, the prophet. So there are also great rabbis (according to your method) who did not live long enough to live exceptionally long.
Again, I mention that they were chosen to be such at an advanced age, so they had already gone through a significant journey in life when they became great rabbis. And I have already mentioned Rabbi Kanievsky as an example, who was elected at an advanced age when throughout his life he was not considered an exceptional figure or recognized as a posek of the generation or as a rosh yeshiva. Others were also elected at a relatively old age. The fact that they lived to an advanced age is impressive, but it turns out that not all of them.

I do not have a detailed sample, but of the few mentioned on Wikipedia, a very significant part did not reach an advanced age.

Regarding previous generations, there is data on life expectancy at that time. Some is estimated, some in periods when there is more organized data, but it should be remembered that infant mortality, epidemics and wars shortened life expectancy, but those who survived and took care of themselves could reach older ages like today.

Avner,

A. If the Great Men of the Generation are an invention of recent years, then perhaps it is really worth checking only for recent years.

B. There are Great Men of the Generation who are agreed upon by all of Israel. The fact that there are extremist factions (mainly abroad) that may not be recognized is irrelevant. Rabbi Ovadia, Rabbi Shach, Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, may the blessed memory of the righteous be upon them, are examples of this.

C. As I answered no, as far as I understand, the list of all the Great Men of the Generation that I gave (a little more than 10) was classified as Great Men of the Generation long, long before they reached extreme old age.

D. Although I tried to explain that my choice is not truly selective, I understand that there is still criticism. You are welcome to suggest other parameters.

E. In order to shorten the process, I suggested ignoring earlier periods. But you say that there is reliable enough data on life expectancy in very recent times, so it is possible to include great rabbis (or great men of a generation) from any period for which there is reliable enough documentation on life expectancy.

A’

In my humble opinion, you do not notice that you are bringing data that agrees with my suggestion

Rabbi Shmuel Auerbach, Rabbi Gestater, Rabbi Chaim Grodzansky, Rabbi Dov Weidenfeld, Rabbi Aharon Rokach, the Chazo”a.

In my opinion, most of them died at an average age much higher than the age at which people in their time would have died (perhaps with the exception of Rabbi Natan Gestatner). You are welcome to verify this.

I repeat, I do not propose to examine the age of death in an absolute manner, but rather in relation to the known life expectancy when they died

I examined the life expectancy in Israel in those years. Most of those great men of the generation I mentioned only passed it in a few years. It should be remembered that life expectancy also includes the Arab population and was affected by Israel's wars. In the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, life expectancy was 72-76 and included the Arab population. In the Jewish population, I would estimate that it was around 75-79 years. For men, it is a little lower, but it should be remembered that men take more risks and generally live less healthily than women.
A person who lives a risk-free life has no reason not to live longer than average. It's like a person who is 1.80 in Israel is above average but not particularly tall.

Note that the discussion here is about people who live extraordinary lives, not those who are slightly above average. Otherwise, a very significant portion receives the same care as these great men of the generation.

In any case, as long as there is no way to check how that providence works and decides and why a certain rabbi reached an extreme age while another died relatively young, it is useless. You can always come up with excuses or find reasons, and there is no way to check objectively when the natural explanation is much more likely.
And in general, I want to know how you intend to check whether there is providence here or whether there are natural explanations here? After all, any argument they bring can be turned to the realms of apologetics and justify the claim that there is providence here.
Stronger evidence is needed than the age of a group of people who there is no agreement on who is included in it, who were chosen to be such at an advanced age (at least 60-70 and usually even more than that, sometimes even without extraordinary wisdom or sharpness, while among the Hasidim there is the model of the righteous and not the wise), and who live a life free of worries. I really want to know what method you propose to check this.

In my opinion, a high life expectancy of an entire group is more significant, and here the Haredi population is not there. There are Catholics from Sardinia, Orthodox on the Greek islands, Buddhists/pagans/atheists from Okinawa and a village of Muslims in the Caucasus.
Also, the great men of the generation who reached great ages were not the oldest people who ever lived.
Even those people can claim providence and have stronger arguments.

A’

I intend to take all the greats of the generation (whatever is agreed upon, let's say), even those who lived less than the average in that year (for example, Rabbi Shlomo Goren, who lived a year less, is in my opinion one of the greats of the generation).
I do not intend to deliberately choose only those who necessarily lived to be 100+ or 90+, but all those whom we agree on as ”greats of the generation”, and check the average.

As I explained, the greats of the generation that I chose, in my humble opinion, were classified as giants before the age of 60-70.
The same applies to Rabbi Kaduri, Rabbi Ovadia, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Schach, Rabbi Elyashiv, Rabbi Steinman, Baba Sali, Rabbi Wasner, Rabbi Zvi Yehuda, Rabbi Eliyahu and in my opinion the rest (at least most of them). If there is anyone you think was classified as such only at the age of 60-70, you are welcome to indicate who.

Regarding other populations that have been blessed with long lives, this is also an interesting topic to examine.
As someone who believes in private providence, it is possible that there are also Gentiles who are blessed with long lives due to providence (over an entire population or individuals), but it could be a natural matter
Likewise, in the case of the rabbis who have passed away, it could be a natural matter, I have no idea.

In conclusion: The “grandfather of the generation” is the Haredi equivalent of the tribal elder, so it is no wonder that the “grandfathers” extend life. If we take a list of Hasidic rabbis who inherit the reins, we will find a fairly standard life expectancy:
https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A7%D7%98%D7%92%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%94:%D7%90%D7%93%D7%9E%D7%95%22%D7%A8%D7%99_%D7%92%D7%95%D7%A8