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The first one

שו”תCategory: philosophyThe first one
asked 2 years ago

peace! You wrote in the first part of a fourth conversation – regarding ‘theological’ and ‘philosophical’ arguments.
That if a person diagnoses himself as having faith in his own eyes, he necessarily believes that there is an intelligent creator who mediated this. But along the way you added another move that I didn’t understand, in which you wrote:
That he will usually look for another (second-order) reason for believing in God and why to trust Him. (Page 337, third paragraph). [This idea is found again towards the end of the argument in the section responding to the evolutionary appeal, in that you explained that it was invalid because your belief in the theory of evolution is circular – so here too we see that you are asking for a second-order explanation].
But isn’t it philosophically enough to have the claim and conclusion that comes from the first-order argument and stop there? And there’s no need for second-order substantiation!? Just as you wrote – the trust that a person gives to his eyes is because it’s simply his intuition. And his conclusion that there is a God is simply the conclusion of this argument.
So in conclusion, why is another second-order argument needed to validate this premise and conclusion?
Have a good week! And good night


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0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 2 years ago
After a person makes a self-diagnosis and discovers that he has faith in his eyes, and hence it is clear that he implicitly assumes that there is a God (because otherwise there would be no justification for this faith), he can still wonder about his implicit assumption that there is a God. Where does it come from? Maybe there really is no God and faith in the eyes is not justified (it is an illusion)? Here we can use the ‘philosophical’ argument from the third conversation.

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י' replied 2 years ago

Thank you very much.
But I left more confused than I came in, throughout the introduction you wrote at length that one starts from the premise that he has faith in his own eyes.

If so, why would he wonder about the very implicit assumption that there is a God and ask where it comes from? That is precisely the purpose of evidence, even if he has no external justification for believing in God, the evidence is still valid…

Or let me ask it another way, if he finds no basis for believing in God (for example, he does not accept the arguments from the third conversation) should he abandon faith in his own evidence!? He is not an atheist who positively assumes that there is no God, he is just not convinced by the rest of the evidence.

מיכי Staff replied 2 years ago

Everything was explained very well there, and here too. A person can be satisfied with intuition and then not need evidence. This is true for any evidence of any kind. But many people are not satisfied with this and look for evidence and arguments. "revealing" evidence does not prove that there is a God, but only that I believe in him. Therefore, I can still wonder and look for evidence for this belief of mine.

י' replied 2 years ago

There was a bit of a delay, so I'll summarize briefly:
I asked why we need a second-order justification for revealing evidence regarding our ability to see. If we don't accept that justification, will we abandon the basic belief (eyes that see correctly).
To that, you replied:
He who is satisfied with that is enough for him.
Secondly, the evidence does not prove that there is a God, only that I believe in him.

So, regarding the first option, do you think that philosophically we need that additional second-order explanation? It is not unnecessary, after all, any philosophical investigation into something external to us stops after an infinite regression of investigations, the initial and basic assumption is always that we think correctly. If so, the revealing evidence shows that behind this ability stands a Creator. But direct evidence for the Creator (philosophical-inductive) will always come later..
It's a bit like what you wrote in the book about the difference between physical and logical inference regarding the statement "If there is rain, there are clouds."

As for the second explanation you wrote, it's even stranger, and it reminds me of what you answered Hillel several times in the first conversation about ontological evidence, after he claimed that evidence can only prove that God exists in the mind but not in reality. There you dismissed Hillel's question because it was a purely skeptical claim, but why not here? (Moreover, if you don't believe your own eyes and that you are coordinated, then how do you even know that the world is complex. Maybe it's just solipsism.)

מיכי Staff replied 2 years ago

I answered everything.

י' replied 2 years ago

Can you still answer? At least one last time, because it seems to me that the things I wrote were indeed not mentioned before.

מיכי Staff replied 2 years ago

Okay, one last time.
These are not two possibilities but two sides of one: this argument proves that I believe in God and not that there is a God, and if someone is not satisfied with having an intuition about the existence of God, they will look for evidence.
I do not see a question that needs to be answered in connection with this picture. It is clear that every philosophical argument starts from intuitive assumptions, but there is certainly room for suspicion as to whether this intuition is real or just built into me (from education or environment or just biases). That is why some people will look for evidence. Intuition is not a trump card in every situation, and a critique of logic is required.
The second question was answered in my post above.

י' replied 2 years ago

Thank you very much! I think I understand.
I have another question, but it is related to a slightly different discussion in my opinion, so I would be happy to open a new question.

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