New on the site: Michi-bot. An intelligent assistant based on the writings of Rabbi Michael Avraham.

A Look at Revenge: Mind and Heart (Column 596)

With God’s help

Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.

You could see that in these turbulent days I don’t really have the mood to write columns—certainly not on current affairs, but not even on theoretical topics. Somehow these days depress me, and when the cannons roar, the muses fall silent. Not only because of the dead we’ve had—and sadly will likely have more—but because, in my estimation, the inflamed martial euphoria now taking shape is leading us into a foreordained chronicle of yet another glorious failure. Beyond that, I must warn that the impression being created—as though the disputes we had here are already behind us—is itself a grand illusion. I can already envision what will be here after that failure joins the terrible one we already experienced, and of course the demonstrations and controversies that will follow (whether Bibi should go or not). What we had here over the past year will, I believe, pale beside what still awaits us. For the moment everyone wants blood, and around that we have briefly united. When we sober up from this destructive mood and see the results of our withdrawal pangs from this euphoria, we will find ourselves in a different situation.

And then I remembered that the next column I had planned to write was supposed to deal with revenge (following a question I was asked here)—an issue tied at the core to the question of reason and emotion, or the mind and the heart. The events of these days provide circumstances in which it is fitting to address this topic, and therefore I decided to try nonetheless to write something. As is my way, I will try to keep a cool head and not be led captive by hot blood, and I thought a good way to cope with these emotions is to write about this very matter. Given the situation (mine and in general), I will do so rather briefly, and therefore will not enter into many additional lessons from the events of recent days.

Methodological Note

Of course I could bring verses and various rabbinic sayings that address this (I’m sure you can find as many as you like online), but in my eyes that has no importance and no meaning. In any case, each person takes those sources and does with them whatever he wishes. In the end, each of us kneads the sources and arrives at the expected conclusion he wanted from the outset (I’ll leave you to supply the headlines: left, right, moderate or extreme).

This also changes according to circumstances. When the blood runs hot, the conclusion will always be in favor of revenge; in other situations, the opposite. When one wants to restrain excessive avengers who arouse in us fear of anarchy and problematic deeds, one will bring sources condemning revenge against them, and in other cases do the reverse. In the end, no one has ever formed a position on such a question in light of the sources. On the contrary: we always subordinate them to the position we formed in advance. This is true for every intellectual and moral topic, but regarding revenge it is doubly true, since a very powerful emotional element is involved. In these stormy days you can find, under every green tree, fine examples of the dishonesty and ridiculous use of sources. So I will spare you and myself that dishonesty, and I will try to explain my own view on the subject without resorting to counterfeit “support,” as is customary.

Revenge: A First Look

The question I was asked concerned the relation between justice and revenge. The term “justice” clearly carries a positive connotation, whereas “revenge” carries a negative one. Every act of revenge contains an element of justice, since the one harmed is the one who deserves to be harmed as a result of what he did; and yet revenge is generally considered bad. To understand the matter better, we need to break it down.

First, we need to understand the aims of revenge. There are several aspects here that are important to distinguish; I will list the basic ones:

  • Justice. Revenge is retribution upon the one who harmed, such that he too will suffer.
  • Deterrence. Revenge may deter other potential offenders.
  • Education. Revenge clarifies and sharpens for the offender himself and for the public at large that the original harm was evil and must not be done.
  • Protection. Revenge can sometimes neutralize the offender, and then it has an aspect of protection (if he is killed or imprisoned, he will not harm again).
  • Catharsis for the victim and for society. Channeling the justified feelings of revenge and frustration in useful directions (the benefit being the previous aspects). It is important to distinguish this from (a), since there we spoke of an ethical and/or metaphysical matter, while here the matter is psychological.

Aspect (a) is clearly positive. True, at times there is a sense that this aspect is the Almighty’s domain, not ours. But I think that when people reject revenge it is mainly because of its negative aspects. Were it not for them, there would be no bar to justice being carried out by us (if it is just, why not?!).

I will now list the problems with revenge:

  1. It is hard to set a reasonable, proportionate boundary. The avenger may do disproportionate things to the offender (stab him to death because he cut him off on the road, or do things that place himself or others in mortal danger just to take revenge). Sometimes a person may take revenge without justification at all (for example, when he decides that so-and-so is guilty when that is not the truth).
  2. Sometimes revenge will be carried out even though it entails severe harms from other perspectives that should have prevented us from avenging, even if the revenge is justified and proportionate.
  3. Revenge can continue without end (revenge for revenge, and so on—like blood feuds among Arabs).
  4. Revenge creates an atmosphere of anarchy and undermines social institutions.
  5. Revenge operates on an emotional basis. This, to my mind, is the most fundamental point, and it underlies most of the problems just listed. But it is important to understand that this aspect is problematic in itself as well: a person ought not act from the gut but from the head.

Therefore, in my answer to the questioner I focused on point 5 and wrote that revenge is bad because it is driven by instinct rather than by deliberation. As noted, this point includes all the others and adds to them.

Private and Public Revenge

All of this is mainly true when revenge is not institutionalized, i.e., when it is carried out by private individuals—especially those who were wronged. When it is carried out by courts, it is more balanced and measured, and this is generally the right way to do it. The reason is that most of the benefits can be achieved that way without the harms. What will be lacking is catharsis for the victim (and perhaps for the public). But this is a deficiency well worth bearing in order to prevent the other harms.

It is important to understand that sometimes institutions also operate emotionally and can thus bring upon us all the harms I listed. This can happen even in courts, though there are administrative constraints (rules of evidence, the right to representation and to appeal, legal and legislative limits, etc.) that try to minimize this possibility. But revenge carried out by a public–governmental body, like a government, is indeed prone to the same problems. True, the government is a public body and not a private person who was harmed; but when the harm is public (as in our case), the government may well go with the prevailing public mood and act like a private person who was harmed. This is because its members are also part of the public (unfortunately), because it lacks the procedural constraints courts have, and also for purely electoral reasons (the scourge of populism). In this way, public revenge too can lead to problematic actions from all the aspects I listed. Therefore, in my view the decision to go to war should not be handed over to a government—or even to the Knesset. At the very least, I would expect significant procedural oversight of such decisions (requiring a special majority, multiple votes, and the like).

Incidentally, in halakhah consultation is sought with the Sanhedrin and with the Urim and Thummim, at least for an optional war (milḥemet reshut), since for it there is no clear halakhic directive and the king’s discretion is required in making such a decision. Among us, such a decision is made in a rather small forum, which is itself controlled mainly by one person. This means that our wars—especially a war of revenge like the one now launched—are liable to fail in all the same pitfalls I listed above regarding revenge. By the way, there is another interesting halakhic aspect that bears on the matter. As is known, the unintentional killer is handed over to the blood avenger (with limits, such as the protection of a city of refuge), and there the aim is clearly catharsis and perhaps also to impress upon people the duty not to be negligent regarding human life. But what is less known is that an intentional murderer is also killed by the blood avenger, as Maimonides writes at the beginning of the Laws of Murderers:

A. Whoever kills a Jewish person violates a negative commandment, as it is said [+Exodus 20:13+]: “You shall not murder.” And if he murdered intentionally in the presence of witnesses, his death is by the sword, as it is said [+Exodus 21:20+]: “He shall surely be avenged.” By tradition they learned that this is death by the sword; whether he killed his fellow with iron or burned him with fire—his death is by the sword.

B. It is a commandment upon the blood avenger, as it is said [+Numbers 35:19+]: “The blood avenger shall put the murderer to death.” Anyone eligible to inherit is a blood avenger. If the blood avenger did not wish, or was unable, to kill him, or if he has no blood avenger, the court executes the murderer by the sword.

Note that this is done only after a court ruling. Thus we gain catharsis for the blood avenger (since he himself kills the murderer) while preventing most of the problems that may arise from personal revenge, because there is an orderly court procedure with all the legal constraints. It is interesting to note that these laws appear in the Laws of Murderers and not in the Laws of the Sanhedrin, and it seems this is because they do not address court procedure but rather the permission for the blood avenger to kill the murderer (hence they are part of the Laws of Murderers and not the Laws of the Sanhedrin).

Interim Summary

The necessary conclusion is that there is justice in revenge, and it also has nontrivial benefits. But the fear of the harms that a policy of revenge may cause should greatly limit a person’s scope to avenge. Usually it is preferable that the matter be carried out by a public body—and even then with great caution and with procedural constraints. Where is the boundary? I cannot define it in a general, sweeping way. Use common sense.

It is very important to understand that these conclusions are not necessarily tied to left and right, to humanism, or to the value of the life of a Jew or a non-Jew, and the like. The harms expected from conduct of revenge are harms by everyone’s lights, and therefore all should agree that it is important to prevent or at least limit them. Take Elor Azaria as an example, who killed a bound terrorist. The “left,” of course, condemned him because of the value of human life—one must not harm someone who poses no direct threat. And the “right,” predictably, supported him enthusiastically. The discussion was mainly about the value of life and its boundaries. In column 1, the column that opened this site, I wrote that I have no moral problem with what he did. In my view it is right and proper to kill a bound terrorist (that way we can even save the rope), and of course there is no reason to treat him medically, as is being done these days (though I would certainly have spared myself and all of us the bestial demonstrations by the “La Familia” gang at Tel Hashomer). But that is a decision that must be made publicly (by the legislature, or at least by a senior military commander, or the military prosecution) and not handed to a private individual. And again, this is not because I feel sorry for the terrorist’s life, but because revenge requires deliberation and must not be carried out emotionally. It is very important to detach the question of revenge from the hyper-emotional left–right question (see also column 151 and many others). Because we do not detach them, not only is the revenge itself carried out emotionally, but the discussion about it is itself tainted by emotionalism. That column was foundational for the entire site, and not by chance I now return to the same point: the need to separate emotions from our decisions and conduct.

Back to Us

I assume none of my readers lives on the moon, and therefore there is no need to expound on the marvelous consensus that has formed in the studios and in the media regarding the need to flatten Gaza without constraints (“without the High Court and without B’Tselem,” to use Rabin’s phrase). Suddenly the great leftists are explaining to us that now it is clear that one cannot live alongside Gaza or Hamas (not always distinguishing between the two): it’s either them or us. Smotrich’s statement about “flattening Huwara,” which drew wild criticism in Israel and abroad, has suddenly become consensus—the sane center. Suddenly it is no longer beastly, no longer morally intolerable, and not even practically impossible. Lieberman’s “toppling Hamas” (even if not in two days), which was met with torrents of ridicule and scorn, has become a mantra on everyone’s lips. As Avraham rightly wrote here in the Q&A, all those arguments have disappeared and the leash is off. In my view, however, this is not hypocrisy, as he interpreted it, but gut reactions. I estimate they will also disappear before long and we will return to our usual debates (and even more so to the good old right–left wars, or Bibi–anti-Bibi).

The pinnacle of pinnacles was an interview two days ago (Tuesday) conducted by Rino Tzror with Maj.-Gen. (res.) Giora Eiland. Eiland is a highly respected officer, former head of the National Security Council, with rich experience, intelligent and measured, whose words are heard with great respect everywhere. It is very worthwhile to listen to him to get an unmediated impression. Despite the measured tone and slow speech (well, he was an army officer), one cannot avoid the impression that the man is speaking from the gut like the most zealous Ben-Gvir supporter. He speaks of destroying Gaza, of deportation, of carrying out a humanitarian “Shoah”—and all without batting an eyelid. The interviewer is left stunned (while trying to keep his composure), and so was I. Not only on the moral plane, but on the practical–strategic one. Does he really think anyone will allow us to do this over time?

This is all the more surprising when you recall Eiland’s personal, intellectual, and ethical qualities. I didn’t check, but I am quite certain that he too was among those shocked by the statements of Smotrich and Ben Gvir—which were far more moderate than his. And I have yet to mention Haim Yellin, an unequivocal man of the left, whose words and descriptions in the media of what happened on the ground and what must be done now shake the entire public and arouse enormous empathy and sympathy—and rightly so. And likewise with other retired generals and various experts in the studios. Suddenly it turns out there is no left in Israel, and in fact there is no sane right either. Everyone here voted for Otzma Yehudit (and that’s only for lack of choice, because Baruch Marzel was not allowed to run). In any case, I’m still waiting for mass apologies to Ben Gvir and Smotrich.

One must understand that the recent events taught no one anything new. Even Bibi, one of the well-known sustainers of Hamas (in my estimation there is a plaque on their headquarters wall with his name as a memorial—he is one of their greatest donors and supporters), told us in a fiery speech to the nation that “we always knew who Hamas is” (see for example here). If so, I don’t understand what is new now. Why is it now clear to everyone that Gaza must be flattened without the High Court and without B’Tselem, whereas before, everyone (including Bibi) opposed that? It seems it is only because they succeeded—i.e., they managed to carry out what they always wanted to do. But why is success a criterion at all? If that is what they want to do—and they have always spoken of it openly—then our policy toward them should have been such all along, no? In many past columns (see, for example, columns 1, 47, 185, 226, 229, 353, 377, 436, 441 and more), I wrote about the failure of evaluating an offense and punishing it based on its outcomes.

All this points to thinking, policy, and declarations that come from the gut. When one sees murder before one’s eyes, it is infuriating and boils the blood, and from there comes the emotional response we are seeing in our public “discourse.” But from the standpoint of the head, attempted murder is exactly as wicked as murder; and preventing murder is no less important than responding to murder already committed. Therefore, if we support flattening Gaza or toppling Hamas, we ought to have supported this always, irrespective of the recent Simchat Torah events. And if we do not support it, these events should not change that.

So What, Then?

I, for my part, do not intend to apologize to Ben Gvir or to Smotrich. In response to a question regarding remarks by Rabbi Sherki, I wrote that in my opinion there is no justification for flattening Huwara, nor Gaza. They were wrong in the past and are wrong now. It is a mad moral injustice, and as I thought then so I think now. Harming innocents is an injustice, and designating them as a target (as Rabbi Zini or Rabbi Sherki write) is a moral scandal. Even a person who supports murder is not worthy of the death penalty, and his infant all the less so. And those in Gaza who do not support murder—and there are such—certainly do not deserve to be wiped from the face of the earth. As noted, the practical results of an action—success or failure—should not change our attitude toward its perpetrator. That changes only from the gut, not from the head.

I wrote here in response to questions that I think it is permissible to harm any Gazan resident if that is necessary to achieve the goals (which no one, including the army and the government, apparently knows). I think, generally, that the goal can be the return of the hostages and eliminating the Hamas threat. Given that we act toward those ends, I have no moral problem with harming innocents (see on this in my article here), but we must remember that at least some of them truly are innocent. Therefore, if it is not necessary and will not lead to achieving the goals but will merely provide catharsis for our boiling blood, such an act incurs a grave moral prohibition. To view all of Gaza as a target ab initio is, in my view, something close to a Nazi idea (apropos the death penalty for those who support murder).

In short, the problem here is not moral but practical. Despite the enthusiastic declarations of soldiers and officers and civilians and politicians that “we will win,” our definition of victory and its goals must be precise—and to my impression, that has not been done. If we wish to take revenge—that is, to impose the death penalty on murderers—that is entirely legitimate. But then there is no justification for harming innocents (including those who support them). If we wish to harm them to prevent future harms or to deter, that already justifies proportionate harm to innocents (see my article), but still the innocents cannot be a target. Harm to them is at most an unavoidable side effect that will not be condemned. If we wish to eliminate Hamas—and certainly all of Gaza—as a strategic goal, there is no point entering moral questions because it will not happen (neither the elimination of Hamas nor the destruction of Gaza). It is simply impractical. The world is so far showing impressive and surprising patience, but I estimate that in a day or two it will wake up and we will be forced to stop. Even now, the Air Force bombings are, in my estimation, beyond the bounds of international law (and Biden has already hinted to us about this twice, in the course of a warm, enthusiastic Zionist speech). But even if you do not think so, the world surely does—and if not now, then in two or three days. And in general, what will happen after we flatten Gaza? Who exactly will rule there, and how? Do we intend to return to military rule in Gaza? To deport all the Palestinians? Is that a real option? Does anyone mean any of this seriously?

So if this will not achieve the toppling of Hamas nor the return of the hostages, and if we have no reasonable goals on the horizon, why on earth are we doing all this? And this even before the ground operation has begun, which will likely exact a heavy price from us as well. Again: it is justified to pay a price if it is necessary to achieve the goals—and if the goals are well defined and worthy. But I deeply fear we will pay it without achieving them. That, at least, is how it was every previous time.

My clear sense is that everyone is now acting from the gut. The enthusiasm of the soldiers is understandable. They are impetuous eighteen-year-olds, and most of them are not really thinking soberly about the situation (and perhaps it is good that they are not). But from the senior command and from the government I would expect more deliberation. The revenge we are engaged in can bring upon us—and upon the Gazans—disasters with no purpose. Contrary to the declarations of Rabbis Zini and Sherki, there is no justification for killing innocents for nothing—and certainly not for our own soldiers and civilians. The fact that we bungled and paid a heavy price arouses obvious frustration. The horrific deeds committed here boil the blood. But none of these is a plan of action, and they do not justify the prices that attend action without a plan.

I have no information, and I am quite a small strategist. Therefore I can only offer unlearned assessments about the situation and certainly about the expected results. It is entirely possible that I am mistaken in my assessments—but at least I try to examine assessments with cold deliberation and not let my gut dictate my thoughts and steps (I have no steps, since, thankfully, I am in charge of nothing). I must say that I have been working on this for many years, and these days all the more so, and I recommend that you—and all of us—do likewise. My sense is that right now people are speaking and acting from the gut, and that is the main problem. Not just among the public, not just among the soldiers, but also not in the senior command and not in the government. Even the commentators and military experts—people not under the pressure of making practical decisions—are issuing pompous, empty declarations from the gut, including the measured and judicious among them (cf. Eiland).

I wrote in response to questions from recent days that I would expect the government and the army to set up a thinking body that would try to formulate policy for the situation that has arisen, and not to set out to action without thinking. They themselves have not demonstrated their thoughtfulness and creativity, and therefore I doubt their ability to do so going forward. Israel has marvelous, creative minds of all kinds, and they are apparently not in the army, nor in the government, nor among the adjacent bureaucracy. The present situation requires gathering several such minds under an “Order 8” emergency call-up and seating them at the table, and this should be done before we embark on practical actions. In my view, if such a team were to hold a day or two of brainstorming, there is a good chance it would reach more creative and effective results than we will obtain in the present situation.

A Note on the “Glorious Surrender”

The sense I described—that everything is operating from the gut—was with me from the start. Therefore I thought to raise my wife Daphna’s proposal, which went in a direction very contrary to the intuitions and the boiling blood. The claim was that perhaps there is a chance to bring forth the precious from the vile—that is, to exploit Hamas’s image of victory to reach with it a more effective arrangement that would include an exchange of prisoners/hostages. One can debate whether this is practical or not, but as I anticipated—and I wrote this before I posted the proposal—many of the responses there were from the gut (and of course they accused me of writing from the gut; apparently I have a tremendous urge to support child-murderers. Or perhaps the provocativeness of the thing charms me).

The proposal is, of course, unusual and outside the box; but precisely for that reason it is worth considering. I must say that I too think most likely it would not have succeeded, but I still think (all the more so now) that it was worth trying before setting out to destroy Gaza. When you have bullets in the chamber, you will achieve results only so long as you have not fired them. After you have fired them, you will achieve nothing (except the death of the one opposite you). If we have immense forces mobilized and international legitimacy (which will soon evaporate) to act, then it is certainly wise at least to consider an offer to Hamas to spare them the destruction that awaits them and to come out with the upper hand (if only because “they deserve it”—they caught us with our pants down). In short, sometimes—especially when one is not in the Wild West and not in Hollywood—Clint Eastwood’s immortal instruction is incorrect: Even if you want to shoot don’t shoot. First think a little bit, try to save the shooting, and then decide.

True, this is a frustrating, annoying path that does not give immediate release to boiling blood. It is hard to admit defeat, and it is certainly easier to declare under every green tree that we will win—as if it were great wisdom to defeat Hamas with aerial bombardment or even with a ground operation (the question is what “win” means; no one gets into that). I am very pessimistic about our chances of winning in any real sense (beyond bringing catharsis to a boiling public). But even if it is hard, perhaps precisely such a step would bring results. Perhaps not. In fact, most likely not. But what matters for my discussion here is not whether it is a good proposal (yes, I too know that a terror organization feeds off admissions of defeat, and that one must “speak Arabic” to them, and deterrence, etc., etc.), but whether anyone is prepared to consider such an option—or anything else out of the box and against the wind that is blowing so strongly and thrilling everyone (but depressing me). My impression is no; and that means we are acting from the gut, not from the head.

To begin closing the circle: what is happening now is a course of revenge, and it seems no one is prepared to consider its consequences and to think whether this is the right way that will bring us optimal achievements. We are conducting ourselves from the gut and not from the head—just like a blood avenger, only without constraints and without prior thought. The public is truly enthusiastic about the unity that was so lacking. But even if cooking for soldiers is nice, and even if impassioned declarations by eighteen-year-old youths about victory are also very nice (and I hope they all return safely, and do not “win” with such overflowing enthusiasm)—from leadership and institutions I expect revenge after prior deliberation and consideration of consequences. A prime minister and a chief of staff are not ordinary citizens. They are institutions, and their role is to show leadership. Leadership at this time is not necessarily to accede to the public mood, but sometimes precisely to stand against it (if indeed that is the conclusion one reaches). I greatly doubt whether they have the strength to do this, even if it were their conclusion. I doubt whether there was any serious inferential thinking there at all. Perhaps in the emergency government and the broader “kitchen cabinet” formed yesterday it will be easier to do this. Would that it be so. Time will tell.


Discover more from הרב מיכאל אברהם

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

164 תגובות

  1. I don't understand, you're sure that the policy leaders are motivated by feelings of revenge, while Netanyahu keeps saying that the goal is to overthrow the Hamas government. Not revenge, not the killing of Gazan civilians (who chose Hamas, unequivocally raised it, and encouraged it), and not turning Gaza into a sea of ruins. All of the latter are secondary damage that is currently in consensus as acceptable damage, as long as Hamas doesn't surrender and turn itself in. They're not motivated by revenge, only by the disillusionment that only such a disaster can bring. Such a disaster that can also open the eyes of the world.

    1. I hope not, but I think so. If this were a sober policy, they would have done so earlier, and certainly not strengthened Hamas as it has done all along. Beyond that, the collapse of Hamas probably will not happen and may come at the cost of the lives of the hostages.
      And as for what Netanyahu says, it has no meaning. There is no connection between his words and the truth. The question is what he does, not what he says. We will wait and see.

      1. And by the way, as far as I've heard, Netanyahu hasn't said anything like that. He uses vague wording that will allow him to deny and adapt his words to whatever happens. In his first speech, he talked about military and governmental capabilities, also in vague wording. And then even that wasn't said.

      2. 1. This could not have been done without a global consensus. I said that a disaster can open eyes.
        2. He said this after Biden's statement

          1. What's so hard to understand that a disaster can open your eyes?
            In addition, what could he have done without broad agreement from the world? It's clear to you that there are no riots in Lod right now, it's because the global mood is giving Israel a tailwind, and there will be zero tolerance for armed riots.
            The situation is delicate enough right now, and I'm actually afraid of Bibi's impotence, and not of any strong feelings he has.
            How much is the limit to blindness? You simply don't see reality in the same way, in my opinion you wear the glasses of position, without realizing that they paint your view with fantasies of rage and revenge. We'll live (?) and see

      3. Quote: “It is important to understand that sometimes institutions also act emotionally and thus may bring upon all of us the harms I have listed here. This can happen even in courts, even though there are administrative restrictions there (evidence laws, right of representation and appeal, restrictions of the law and legislation, etc.) that try to minimize this possibility. But revenge carried out by a public-governmental entity, such as a government, is certainly prone to the same problems. It is true that the government is a public entity and not a private person who has been harmed, but when the harm is public (as in our case), the government is certainly liable to follow the wind blowing in the public and act like a private person who has been harmed. This is because its members are also part of the public (unfortunately), also because it does not have the procedural restrictions that exist in the courts, and also for purely electoral reasons (the scourge of populism). In this way, public revenge is also liable to lead to problematic actions from all the aspects I have listed. Therefore, in my opinion, it is not right to leave the decision on war in the hands of a government or even a Knesset. At the very least, I would expect significant procedural criticism of such decisions (requiring a supermajority, a number of votes, etc.)”

        Where do you get the idea, Rabbi Michael, that the government is motivated by feelings of revenge, especially the current one? Is it based on the words coming out of the mouths of its leaders? Or perhaps on its actions? How do you draw these conclusions?

        It is difficult for me to understand how it operates in such a chaotic system, especially a war system with political and regional influences.

        I did not understand what body you would want to conduct the war? Have you ever seen such a thing in history, a body other than the leadership conducting a war? Is it even reasonable now to let, say, judges conduct a war when they are not professionals? Even the current generals have failed in force building and intelligence, so let them conduct it alone?

        Is it even reasonable to take one language, halakhic, and derive from it another language of political and military realism?

        I really didn't understand your above quoted words

        I would be happy if you could clarify yourself.

        Yigal

        1. Hello Yigal. It is clear that your words are not exactly coming from the head. This is because you are imputing things to me that I did not write, and making unfounded claims that are not relevant to the matter. I suggest that you think a little before you write. It will save you effort and energy.
          1. Where did I write that the government is motivated by feelings of revenge? I wrote that I have such a concern and that there are no mechanisms to prevent this.
          By the way, if you have already raised it, then now I will add that it is quite clear that it is also true. Fortunately, it seems that Bibi is wise enough to neutralize his entire infantile government in decision-making. By the way, I am impressed that the cabinet is too (which is already against the law).
          You can be impressed by the previous military operations carried out by the various governments and see that most of them were futile and pointless. The fact that they respond to the successes of the terrorists and not to their intentions shows that they are motivated by feelings of revenge. A rational body does not act like that.
          To your question about what I didn't write before and added now: This concern arises from both the government's words and actions. By the way, this is also true of previous governments.
          2. It's really not difficult to understand how it is run, because it is not. And the chaos here is its own doing. Israel today has no government. It runs on its own.
          3. I don't know if Jewish history is considered history by you. But I gave an example of such a body and you rejected it on the bizarre claim of switching between languages. To judge you on the positive side
          Moreover, I want to assume that you yourself did not understand what you wrote here.
          4. I wrote that it was appropriate to establish a body that reviews and thinks, not a management body.
          5. What is the point of building the power to make decisions and shape policy?

          1. And by the way, if you're asking, then in the US a resolution from Congress is required to declare war. I'll go ahead and add that Congress there is not controlled by the administration like our Knesset is controlled by the government.

            1. Since World War II, the United States has gone to several wars without a declaration from Congress…
              https://www.senate.gov/about/powers-procedures/declarations-of-war.htm

              1. The facts are well known. Usually this is defined as an operation and not a war. And yet this is an example for those who asked here who can authorize wars

  2. I completely agree with the tone of the article and the demand to act coldly and not from the gut.
    However, your wife's proposal for a surrender agreement (because a proposal not to continue fighting means surrender), comes from a lack of understanding of the Middle East. An understanding so Western that you have apparently not read even an article by a Hamas (Muslim Brotherhood) thinker about their goal. Since if you understood that their goal does not stop at the desire to “achieve a picture of victory” but to control all of Israel and in fact the entire Arab region and even the entire world, you would conclude from this that it is inappropriate to stop fighting them at any time. Unfortunately, you will always eat the sword, but I hope that next time we will surprise them and they will not surprise us.

    1. I don't know how much expertise you have in the Middle East, but I think both she and I know it as well as anyone who lives here. The question is not their goal, which is well known. The question is how to achieve optimal achievement. Maybe you didn't understand, but I didn't mean to return them with a complete repentance and join them in the Zionist Organization.

      1. As for my level of expertise, I am an Arabic speaker and have a degree in identity studies.
        To be specific, is your intention to surrender in order to receive the prisoners and then immediately attack (i.e. violate the surrender agreement), since you understand that Hamas' presence cannot be tolerated? If so, I tend to agree. It would simply sound from your words that it is possible to surrender to them and simply continue life as usual after such a prisoner exchange agreement. (An agreement that only Israel would honor, of course)

  3. Michi .
    The main point of the article about controlling the mind as much as possible over the heart in order to reach conclusions. In my humble opinion, you miss a final point that you did not address, which is as stated: It is possible that an event, even though it is a completely emotional event, that hurts in an area that is not the mind but the heart. Or the nerves. Causes a person to draw a mental conclusion.

    You can see a lot of people on the left and center calling for Gaza to be occupied. Probably because the massacre was carried out in a place that was not exactly a stronghold of the extreme right but inhabited a very high population of people from the center and moderate left. Hypocrisy? You could see it that way. Speaking from the gut? You could see it that way. But there is something bigger here than either of these in my humble opinion: the younger generation in particular and many people on the Israeli left and center have been convincing themselves for years that the main problem with Palestinian terrorism. Or much of it is because of unjustified settlements. Palestinian and Arab anger at keeping people under military rule. And here it is .On the kibbutz where the massacre took place. There are no settlers and there is no martial law over anyone. The massacre took place at a party where they celebrated peace and love for all people - not at a victory party for Ben Gvir, not at the memorial service for Rabbi Meir Kahane, and not even on the day of the passing of Hanan Porat, may his memory be blessed, for example, who was one of the spokesmen for the settlement movement - and this can be seen as confirmation or an opening up of many people on the center-left. Apparently the other side is not secular and humanistic and sees the conflict only in the limited way they see it, of occupiers versus the occupied.

    You see the same very cautious trend, by the way, among right-wingers today. Progressive trolling. Identity politics. The morality of the weak. All of these things resonate very strongly in their publications today - presenting the people of Israel as a weak, persecuted and hated people just like they were in the past, in need of the world's mercy. It's not for nothing that the phrase "Auschwitz Day" or "We went through a Holocaust here a few days ago" has been repeated so many times. The enthusiasm for the Israeli flags that are lit up over Berlin, Paris and the United States. Biden as a Gentile, Righteous Among the Nations, the Savior of the World - you probably know very well with what mockery, hatred and cynicism the Israeli right-wing treats them. Both for religious reasons of kindness to sinful nations and the prohibition of accepting charity and help from Gentiles (as any rapprochement and help of this kind indicates a rapprochement between worlds of values, mercy that endangers our continued spiritual existence) and for reasons of physical self-respect. And morally (what are we still in the ghetto and need to beg for the mercy of the Fritz?! We are Levites who stand up for ourselves and for the glory of God) - suddenly disappear as if they were not there. Suddenly very important for right-wingers. Yes, even for the religious and most fanatical of them. For confirmation from the enlightened Western world that what is happening here is genocide. That it shares with us the value of the war on terror. (And to be precise, they expand and say that they need to support us because terror will reach them too and we are in the same boat with them..)..

    Suddenly “loyal minorities” They are our “brothers.” Lucy Harish and Yosef Haddad. Suddenly brothers in arms and blood, angels and heroes. (Thanks to a public address and thanks to the fact that Harish’s husband went to battle) – Where is the condition that only an Arab who accepts the doctrine of spiritual, moral and civil superiority of the Jewish collective is allowed to live here as a subject? Where is the terrible danger that their descendants will not defile our descendants?

    And here too, it is not obvious that this is hypocrisy or thinking from the stomach of the more moderate right, drawing logical conclusions from such events as the terrible massacre. And perhaps precisely because it took place in regions that are not strongholds of the right, it increases the feeling among them that these are real Nazis. Who want to lose and eliminate every Jew. And among them, whose attitude towards Western culture has always been restrictive but not completely - they are kind of putting him to the test right now - and telling him that if they hold values from the end that are consistent with their values in terms of the way of the land that preceded the Torah and the 7 commandments of the children of Noah, which also include the obligation to settle the world in peace and oppose bloodshed - they must join ... and in addition, they discover from what seems to them to be great darkness things that they perceive as heroism when members of the minority from the end do indeed behave as human beings and are willing to bear the burden with them and even risk their lives with them - after all, if everyone there looks like human animals, they are alone. Who are doing a reasonable act, already worthy of the title of Righteous Among the Nations and the Righteous and Angelic Sheriffs of the Highest

    Of course, all this concerns the Israeli center. The Israeli extremes have remained their own and radical leftists are still calling Israel's response war crimes. And the extremes of the right continue to talk as in the past about flattening all of Gaza down to the last remnant of the Hapelita, including the price of a comprehensive regional war, because this is one of the signs of redemption. In fact, all strategic calculations are unimportant because only God determines and decides what the outcome will be - and if the entire people of Israel repents following the events - the IDF will only have to give reinforcements from the end and tomorrow or the day after tomorrow its kingdom will be revealed in the world, and in any case a wolf lives with a lamb, etc.

  4. A. In my opinion, the government is doing exactly what the rabbi says, except that it knows what the public feels and wants, and it also knows that the public thinks from the gut, and therefore it gives the people in the fields what they want, but in the rooms it calculates what is right for the country in all respects [see what Bibi said at Bar Ilan about dividing Israel into two states, and did he think that for a moment?]

    B. What the rabbi brought in the name of the rabbi seems wrong because Hamas is a fundamentalist religious organization and there is no dialogue with it, as in [contrast] there is no normal dialogue with the ultra-Orthodox and other fundamentalists, and to bow to them is to turn the other cheek, and look at the words of your student https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qsy-f70QGew&t=547s and do”k

    C. Who said that there should be no complete control over Gaza? On the contrary, since we are pacifists and do not want to kill people, we will finish off the Hamas organization and take full control there, and Gaza will be an integral part of the State of Israel, if all that implies is budgets and so on. Then maybe there will be a kind of peace.

      1. Thank you very much. I wish the Rabbi much success. I didn't know that the Rabbi used to bless those who responded 😁😁😁

    1. Everyone is driven by a desire for revenge and boiling blood except for the rabbi. Thank you for being here.
      Beyond the substantive discussion, I haven't encountered such a condescending Torah approach in a long time.

  5. Relatively rational also wrote most of my own thoughts. Choosing the revenge option is an informed choice. Moreover, it has always been the right one. As the right-wing lunatics always said, “Those who pity the cruel will end up…” and to their great shame, they were right…
    The assumption is that sooner or later, if we do not choose the revenge option, we will not be here. What has changed this time is two things: many more people than before will sober up and embrace it, and secondly, and more importantly, that Hamas' phenomenal success has given a huge boost to all our external enemies.
    Eiland's proposal is excellent from a moral perspective (he also does not call for kidnapping Palestinian children and executing them..). The question is whether it is practical. The answer to the question of whether it is practical depends largely on the change in consciousness that we are willing or unwilling to make.

  6. And look at the words of Asa Kasher, who said in his words, "So be it, like you" https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/yokra13626138

  7. What about the simple argument of deterrence?
    There is a large target bank, thank God, so there is no need to bomb aimlessly. So you drop a lot of bombs and cause a lot of destruction – hoping that will prolong the time until the next time.
    Doesn't make sense?

    1. We've tried this more than once. Beyond that, there are heavy prices here (kidnapped, etc.). But it's a legitimate argument. I just hope it's actually done and that proper consideration is made on the way to it.

  8. Sometimes it takes an event of this magnitude to dispel an illusion. Until now, people, including Bibi apparently, have convinced themselves that it is possible to manage the conflict with Hamas. He knew who Hamas was, but it was convenient to think that you could pet the dog with Qatari shillings and it would only bite a little.

    Now what happened happened, the illusion exploded, the international rein was temporarily loosened, and Hamas can be treated as a murderous enemy. It is true that there is also an element of revenge out of anger, but I don't think that is the main thing. The main thing is the illusion that was and is not.

    By the way, we need to distinguish between a person who supports murder and does nothing about it, who is simply evil, and a person who proactively supports the murderers. A significant portion of the population in Gaza belongs to the second type.

    1. I was talking about supporting murder in principle, not aiding murder. That's clearly something completely different.
      As for the rest of your comments, we'll wait and see.

  9. 1. There is justification for harming innocent people. They also harmed innocent people. And besides, they always have the option to escape. We had no option to escape voluntarily.
    2. When the Allies defeated Germany, they didn't ask themselves what kind of government would come in their place. That's their problem. They won't learn a lesson - they'll be beaten again. (No belly, no belly..)
    3. It's true that you bring evidence from the rabbis that you already agree with (because it's actually the preacher's personal opinion and isn't binding anyway), but is that also true of the literal meaning of the Bible? That the Kabbalah struck the firstborn, from the firstborn of captivity to the firstborn of slavery. Firstborn babies also died (and if you reject that the Kabbalah is permitted and we are prohibited, the answer is simple). On the contrary, you will bring evidence that contradicts the literal meaning of the Bible, that in war, the harm to innocent people must be taken into account. I'm waiting.
    And you also wrote that you do agree with the partial harm of innocent people.. Well, here too the paradox of deception arises. Where does the line cross?

    1. What kind of justification is this? They also raped women and slaughtered babies, so is there a justification for doing this? Do we learn morality from Hamas?

      Maybe there are sometimes other justifications for harming innocent people (for example, that there is no other way to eliminate the criminals). But the fact that Hamas does this is the last thing that can serve as a justification.

      1. They did it directly, we did it indirectly. No one is saying to kill babies with your hands. They have the option to escape now, we didn't.

        1. It seems to me that you didn't understand. You claim that one should learn from the Bible. You brought up the killing of babies by God as a relevant source. I asked if you really learn from there? And the answer is of course no.

    2. 1. That is, “they started”. Please contact the kindergarten teacher with this.
      2. And therefore? Were they necessarily right? Is the situation similar here? If you think for a second, you will see that it is not.
      3. This is even more true regarding the literal meaning of the Bible. Are you suggesting taking every firstborn in Gaza and executing him? By the way, the literal meaning of the Bible also says “an eye for an eye”, and killing a wayward son. Are you suggesting doing this in practice?
      And regarding the paradox of the heap, you offer an interesting solution. Kill everyone always, even if there is no reason. Otherwise, where does the line cross?! Strange logic.

      1. To the kindergarten teacher? Maybe to Moses our Lord? Come to your early killing, kill him. So if he has already killed, is there no light here? Or does His Honor want to demand when he planned and not when he did???
        Yes” he started” In criminal law, too, a defense argument is considered. And not just to the kindergarten teachers.

        In the test of the result, they were right. If there is a difference, please enlighten me.

        No. I'm just saying that if you already agree to the partial killing of innocents, then you should agree to any number. If it is immoral to kill even one innocent, then it is forbidden. If it is immoral, then even a million are allowed.

        I did not understand the example of the firstborn of Gaza. I asked you for a source from the Bible that prohibits the killing of innocents.
        From what you asked about an eye for an eye, etc. You already know the answer to this question, is the Halacha moral, etc. (Chazo, Rav Kook, etc.)
        Let's say that if in the time of Moses someone gouged out an eye or killed a disobedient son and the Kabbalah teacher would not have put him in hell. And that's enough. (And I'm not sure about our generation either, but that's a topic for a separate discussion)

        And if you've already brought a source from Clint Eastwood. There's another source from Cobra, namely Stallone, who said that if we play with criminals by our rules, we'll lose.
        Wisdom for the Gentiles, believe it.

        The question centers on one thing: if Pikuach Nefesh rejects the entire Torah, doesn't it also reject morality? (And this is your opinion, of course. In my opinion, it's moral)

      2. I have never understood the criticism of the claim "they started it." This is perhaps the most important question, it makes all the difference. Yes, they started it. Now we need to answer. The moral outrage in my opinion is that it is immoral to endanger your soldiers at the expense of enemy civilians. During war, the moral thing is to win, otherwise your civilians and soldiers will be killed. I really don't understand how you don't see that this is what needs to be done - residents were warned, which in itself is a kindness, now the place really needs to be leveled before ground entry, so that there is the lowest risk to our soldiers. You may disagree with the assessment of the situation, but if this is indeed the reality - are you willing to endanger our soldiers in order not to harm "uninvolved" people?

        1. The claim “they started it” is an excellent ethical claim. But it is neither a strategy nor a practical justification for the steps (but perhaps an ethical justification for limited steps).
          As for the rest of your words, I can only repeat what I wrote to Nathaniel. It is difficult to correspond with a person who does not display minimal reading comprehension (or whose emotionality overshadows it). My answer is in white Kiddush letters in a column, and I see no point in repeating it here.

  10. Revenge is a matter of perspective – wiping out a village because of a single attack seems like madness.
    Wiping out half of Gaza because of a genocide organized by Hamas, which was elected to rule Gaza, could work.
    When Smotrich suggests wiping out Huwara because of a relatively minor incident, he positions Israel as a fanatical state and paradoxically prevents Israel from taking revenge on Gaza.

    Revenge is also a matter of timing –
    If Bibi had burned down half of Gaza on Shabbat while Hamas was committing genocide in the communities surrounding Gaza, it would have gone viral, especially if it had been presented as a defensive action to save Israeli civilians from slaughter.
    Now, a week after the event, no one will accept that wiping out neighborhoods in Gaza is a defensive action.

    I don't understand what stopped Bibi from deciding to wipe out half of Gaza on Shabbat – Is it because we had an Amoni government that waited until Shabbat to convene?
    Did Bibi, like General Packham in Catch-22, spend the Sabbath planning a victory strategy against the real enemy (Gantz/Lapid/Lieberman) and not waste time on trifles like Gaza?

    In any case, the combination of calls for revenge and the wiping out of villages because of a single attack with a government that has difficulty making quick decisions has pretty much closed the option of wiping out parts of Gaza with the help of artillery or air-to-air fuel bombs.

    The option that will remain after exhausting the target bank is a ground entry that will come at an unbearable cost in human lives.

    1. Indeed. I wrote this division in response to the question. There is no full comparison here, but there is a similar consideration that raises thoughts about the consistency of the left.

      1. Revenge is a currency that is used sparingly.
        When Ben Gvir and Smotritz spend all the remaining revenge on marginal events, there is no revenge budget left for critical events.

        What makes revenge a currency is that every call to use it causes a huge loss of value.

        Therefore, reasonable parties save the revenge currency, do not threaten, do not sing revenge songs and certainly do not burn villages left and right.

        Then when the moment of truth comes, they have a warehouse full of revenge against the enemy.

  11. I didn't say if you want to shoot –
    I said if you have to shoot –
    Of course, after all the shekel and the required

      1. A. Action from the gut is not always bad. In the book ”Rational Emotions” by Professor’ Eyal Winter, it is explained that actions from the gut often save us in a way that if we had acted from the mind we would not have been saved, so too, for example, instincts that allow us in a dangerous situation to act in a way that skips many steps, but they were created as a survival need that is beneficial according to most. In other words, in this case, the action from the gut and the action from the mind lead to the same place. It is indeed appropriate to combine both, but not to abandon the action from the gut, which in this case is a survival act that is necessary for the situation, (as you also wrote about the young soldiers who do not think about the situation in a balanced way and perhaps it is good that this is so, certainly, especially in situations of danger, it is good not to think only intellectually about the situation).

        B. The consensus that has emerged, which is suddenly ”erased” The left really doesn't just come from the gut, it happens because those people have come to know overwhelmingly that there is no one to talk to, and that they are human animals. May God have healthy eyes to see and understand this.

        C. The proposal for the agreement is much more irrational than the statement to flatten Gaza. You can see it as an outside-the-box proposal, but in my opinion it is simply a proposal disconnected from reality. Even suggesting that we give them candy with a note saying ”Let's be friends” is an outside-the-box proposal. I will say briefly that this is an unparalleled weakness, sends a terrible message to Hamas, our people and the entire world, and goes against the morality of common sense.

        1. A. An action from the gut is always bad. But Eyal Winter, like many others, confuses two different things: an action from the gut (emotional) and an action that is not explicitly reasoned (intuitive). The main difference between them is that if there are good considerations against this action, then the first type will not listen to them and the second will.
          B. I highly doubt it. But we'll wait and see. If so, then they really are fools.
          C. As mentioned, I will not enter into a debate about the proposal here because that is not the topic. That is why I did not bring it up in the column but only referred to it. The discussion is to what extent people are generally willing to consider such proposals, even if they were correct. As for the substance of the matter, I do not agree at all with what you wrote, but as mentioned, that is not the topic.

          1. B. I didn't understand, why then are they really stupid? They change their minds following changes in reality.. Beyond that, even if many later return to leftist positions (I believe this will happen, although perhaps more moderate) this does not show that they acted from the gut, it shows that human nature and distance from the event cause atrocities to be forgotten and therefore people will return to their position.

            1. Because the latest event did not renew anything. There was no change in reality here.

              They did not act from the gut because human nature is to act from the gut. This is a bit strange logic to me

              1. He did renew, every additional terrorist incident reinforces the fact that they are bad and want to do bad, it is true that it was possible to understand this before, but the more such atrocities there are, the less room for doubt ”maybe peace can still be achieved” (or they are poor and we should feel sorry for them, which is an argument that can still always be made). Especially since this is a reality of a magnitude and in a way that has never been seen before.
                Acting from a place that sees and is present in reality with full force is not the same as acting from the gut… it allows in many ways to see the picture more correctly and act more correctly.
                Regardless, I also think that there are many people whose automatic emotional reaction is not to fight, it is much more beautiful and fun to want peace, but then there is common sense that says that this is what is right and should be done.

              2. Rabbi Michi, I agree with everything you wrote in this column, but I will just point out that according to you I am considered one of the fools: I have been given a lot of new life. I knew about the cruelty of the terrorists and Hamas, but in my worst nightmares I did not believe that they were capable of and wanted to carry out such a monstrous pogrom. The difference is not only quantitative (the number of those murdered), in my opinion it is qualitative: the cold and calculated planning, the explicit leadership backing from the start, the enormous number of participants, the atrocities that I do not want to detail that go far beyond murder - this is not something I believed would happen, and at least for me it is definitely a change in reality and a change in perception. So I am fine with being considered a fool, it does not matter to me what my name is, but I did want to point out that there are definitely people for whom something in reality has been given a new life as a result of these atrocities. What to do, we learn.

              3. I haven't even noticed this. We've always known that they don't spare their own citizens and act with insane cruelty (like throwing Fatah members, including civilians, off rooftops). I also don't see why planning changes anything in this regard. It just means that their well-known cruelty is accompanied by a better level of execution than we estimated. It says something mainly about us, not about them.
                But even if the level of cruelty has noticed you, I don't understand why it's relevant to the discussion. Until now, you thought it was possible to reach an agreement with them, and now you've realized that it's not? If their cruelty is not planned and not at current levels, then do you think it is possible to reach an agreement with them? And now it's not? This innovation, even if it exists (and in my opinion it doesn't), doesn't say anything about the left and the right. Anyone who didn't understand this before is really having a hard time.

              4. What was new to me most of all was the realization that we are not dealing with calculated evil designed to achieve goals. There is a rationale for terrorism, even when it is cruel, and there are cases where it also achieves its goals - even if it could have achieved them better by peaceful means. But this attack was intended to achieve only death, for us and for them, no rational person would have imagined that this attack would be of any benefit to the Palestinians. Until now, I had assumed that this was a cruel, evil enemy, but still to a certain extent perhaps also rational, and that left me with hope. Now I know that it is not.

              5. If this is the conclusion that has been renewed for you, I highly doubt it. While I don't really understand their rationale either, I'm pretty sure they do. They thought that a picture of victory was important, and in the long run that may even be true. Furthermore, their previous actions made no sense to me either, so I don't think that's renewed here either.

              6. In the grand moral and strategic story, I definitely agree that nothing has changed – there is no one to make peace with and they deserve severe punishment for their actions and ideology just like before the murderous attack.

                But you speak different languages. You are a strategic moralist and she is a tactical one. And tactically, many things have indeed changed.

                Tactical thinking is often characterized by a pragmatic perspective and cost-benefit thinking. In Corona, this was expressed, for example, in Ayelet Shaked's sentence that the dead need to be ‘contained’. A closure is costly and beneficial to certain degrees, while opening the economy completely yields other costs and benefits. We need to examine what is more valuable. The number of dead increased more in favor of closures and when it decreased, the opposite happened.

                And in this regard, Hamas' capabilities, which I believe surprised you (and senior IDF officials) as well, are important. Can someone say that as long as there are missiles that kill relatively few, it is worth acting on a certain strategy (which, in their opinion, also has certain benefits), but once the cost has increased dozens of times due to surprising capabilities and the number of deaths has skyrocketed, a strategy must be changed that will yield other benefits in the long term. A policy that is desirable in the eyes of people often works in this tactical way, and therefore the new capabilities change the picture even in this way of thinking (which certainly has a certain rationality).

  12. Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him, but put to death both man and woman, and both ox and sheep and camel and donkey.

    What is the difference?

      1. First, thank you for the article, even if I don't agree with some of it
        I read the introduction
        I was referring to this paragraph:
        Harming innocent people is an injustice and targeting them (as Rabbi Zeini or Rabbi Sharki write) is a moral scandal. Even a person who supports murder does not deserve the death penalty, and his baby even less so. And those in Gaza who do not support murder, and there are some, certainly do not deserve to be wiped off the face of the earth.
        That is, there are cases where this is the commandment, in cases of morally corrupt people, like Amalek and Sheba Ammin
        Of course speaking about the principle

    1. Here, he answered here, 6 years ago
      https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%A2%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%91%D7%A6%D7%99%D7%95%D7%95%D7%99-%D7%9E%D7%97%D7%99%D7%99%D7%99%D7%AA-%D7%9E%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9F-%D7%95%D7%A2%D7%9E%D7%9C%D7%A7

      But, in contrast, he attributes to everyone, what he does not attribute to himself
      Everyone They argue, and only Rabbi Michi is a supremely righteous genius, who remains within the boundaries of reason alone.
      Of course, it is only when he is forced to deal with other moral opinions, which stem from *axioms* (=there is no way to prove that the other is wrong, only to point out possible errors that may arise) that he does not speak of them.
      You can see the great pathos he uses, that is, he turns to pathos to convince us, not to reason.
      Rabbi Michi is also aware of his ability to convince through *emotion*, and at the same time, goes against it.
      "This is a *crazy* moral injustice"
      "A moral* scandal"
      This is not an appeal to reason, this is an appeal to emotion.

  13. I don't understand, how do you plan to prevent the next 1300 deaths in the next attack after all the prisoners are released. What will prevent them from carrying out the next attack? If your answer is the IDF, you simply refuse to learn from the mistakes of the past.

  14. Don't worry, the soldiers who were drafted are sitting on the fence, the air force is bombing empty buildings, while Bibi brought Gantz in mainly so that Gantz could block the ground entrance. The sea is the sea, Bibi is the Bibi, and no revenge is expected at the door.

  15. Regarding what you said here:
    “The practical results of an action, success or failure, should not change anything in our attitude towards its execution. It only matters in terms of the stomach and not in terms of the head.”

    There is a reply of yours in which you actually said other things:
    https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%A0%D7%94%D7%92%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%A9%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%A2%D7%A1%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%91%D7%A4%D7%9C%D7%90%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%9F-%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%9C%D7%90

    “In the theory of punishment, several reasons are given for punishment. One of them is a sanction for the severity of the offense, the other is revenge for the result (the state carries out controlled revenge on behalf of the victim or his family), atonement, deterrence, etc.
    In terms of the severity of the offense, there seems to be no difference between a cell phone game that caused a person's death and a game that did not cause death. Attempted murder is just as serious as murder. But in terms of revenge for the result, of course there is a difference. “

    1. Indeed, if we see revenge as atonement and erasing the result, there is a difference. But this is inherently incorrect and inappropriate. In terms of catharsis, there is also a difference according to the results.

      1. Why is this not right and not appropriate? At least why should it not be an additional consideration when we take punitive measures (beyond the seriousness of the offense)?

        1. It is not right because you are taking revenge in a sweeping manner. As I explained, not everyone is to blame. You can hurt those who need to be hurt to achieve goals, but revenge is only done to those who deserve it.
          And it is also not right, if this revenge comes at the expense of other achievements (it will hurt us in other ways).

          1. I'm not talking about the sweeping manner of revenge right now. I'm talking only about the aspect of revenge on the result as a supporting reason for punishment. As far as I'm concerned, one can discuss for that matter someone who drives while busy with their phone. On the surface, it seems that the result of the offense has significance, and not just the intention behind it.

            1. Revenge for an act is, of course, for an act. And yet I see no value in it. Revenge for wickedness is something else, and there is value in that. But wickedness does not depend on the results.

              1. I mean, when we come to punish someone, it is appropriate to also give weight to the consequences of their actions, and not just their intentions (as a supporting consideration).

              2. Okay, so if Hamas is responsible for the consequences of their actions (and not just their intent), then it makes sense to respond with increased force when there are serious consequences, doesn't it?

              3. I didn't understand the question. After all, I wrote that in my opinion, it is possible to destroy all the residents of the Gaza Strip if it is necessary to solve the Hamas problem. But this is not punishment but prevention, and it does not depend on their successes but on their attempts.

              4. I am referring to this sentence you wrote:
                “The practical results of an action, success or failure, should not change anything in our relationship to its operation. It only matters in terms of the stomach and not in terms of the head.”

                To that I said that if Hamas is responsible for the results of their actions (and not just their intentions), then there is logic in an increased response when there are serious results (success), right?

              5. I assume you also read the rest of the column. I already explained it there, and also here above. Nothing should change in our attitude towards the perpetrator of the action. The responsibility to correct the results of the act, of course, lies with him. It has nothing to do with our attitude towards him.
                But in our context, none of this is relevant because the action we are taking now was not supposed to be taken just because they succeeded. It also does not correct the results that happened, but prevents (as I hope) future results. We should have done that before too. The result here does not raise or lower in any way. Maybe except for the attitude of the world. Nothing to do with our own attitude.
                We are just repeating ourselves.

              6. I didn't fully understand your division between the cell phone case and the Hamas case, so I'm trying to ask more to clarify the difference.

                Regarding the cell phone case, you wrote that in the theory of punishment several reasons are given for punishment. One of them is a sanction for the severity of the offense, the other is revenge for the result (the state carries out controlled revenge on behalf of the victim or his family), atonement, deterrence, etc.

                From your words there it sounds like the result has significance when we come to respond to any crime. So why do you claim that it has no significance in the case of Hamas?

                Regarding this, you wrote that indeed, if you see revenge as atonement and erasing the result, there is a difference. But this is inherently wrong and inappropriate because you are taking revenge in a sweeping manner. As I explained, not everyone is guilty. You can harm those who are necessary to achieve goals, but revenge is only taken against those who deserve it.
                And it is also not right if this revenge comes at the expense of other achievements (it will harm us in other ways).

                In other words, from what you said here, it sounds like the results of the criminal action do have significance, but we must ensure that revenge on Hamas is not carried out in a sweeping manner, but rather in a targeted manner, and that it does not harm us in other ways. And if that is the case, I do not understand why you presented the matter in the column as if the results had no significance at all.

          2. It clearly matters whether you succeed or not. Just as if you can save the body, you must not kill the pursuer. If it were a castrated organization of mule riders - then the response is one thing, even if their top priority is the destruction of Israel; whereas if they are Iran 2, then the response is another. I didn't understand how it's possible not to divide between the successful and the unsuccessful. I'm also not going to go to war with the student organizations at Harvard - because they are simply a collection of big-mouthed, insufferable people, although I have no doubt that they are very big haters of Israel. But if they join ISIS (or Hamas) - then they are an enemy who must be taken seriously and indeed have their heads smashed. I don't understand where the logical fallacy is that prevents this simple understanding.

  16. And here began the theological explanations, blessed be the partitions and blessed be He:
    https://mobile.srugim.co.il/article/851347

  17. I am not writing for the site, but I am writing to you, to inspire. I would even be happy if you would not answer here but only read this (and maybe later). I do not quite understand where the reference to the honor of heaven is? The vengeance of God.
    Take vengeance on the children of Israel from the Midianites after you have gathered them to your people.
    And Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Let some of you be an army, and they shall be upon Midian to avenge Jacob on Midian.”
    Israel’s vengeance is not a private vengeance, it is the vengeance of the Lord. This is not a moral proof from the Scriptures, but rather a proof of definition. I often read your words and think, and each time my interest in the difference between philosophy and Kabbalah becomes more and more acute. Philosophy for the rabbis (and as I think the rabbis and others, but not relevant at the moment) is the gateway to acceptance, to understand that in fact, from the intellectual point of view, you may be right, but what can we do that as religious people do not stop at Western reason. There is a transition. And the division between rabbis who follow philosophy closely and those who have advanced (for the rabbis, this is progress) also for acceptance, is the attitude towards the traditionalists, towards prayer, towards the common people who feel part of the people, even though there is apparently no intellectual logic in this and even more so.
    And indeed, I think that your writing as it is is superior and accurate.

  18. Regarding your opening, I think honest people can extract a moral ideology from the simplicity of the Scriptures. And even if they don't adopt it, they will understand that it has a place.
    I can say for myself that I had a very hard time with concepts like revenge, etc. until I studied many chapters in the Bible. And I would bring verses and stories, but I don't bring a whole lot.

  19. I would agree with the rabbi in every word if I hadn't recently been studying the Quran and getting to know Arabs and asking them to teach me their religion. It should be noted that I generally lean more to the left on the political map on this issue:
    Give territories in exchange for peace, give Israeli Arabs a respectful place, etc.
    But today, after studying
    I understand a few things:

    A. Almost no Arab agreed to condemn the massacre and abuse, not from the Israeli Arabs and certainly not from the West Bank and the world.

    B. The Arab countries and the Arab people are mostly religious or at least want to be religious.

    C. Jihad is, according to a highly educated Arab with high introspection who explained to me: “the highest of the believers” and therefore, according to him, “I don't know whether Hamas are martyrs or not”. I smell in his words an agreement that with the help of the technique of ”Taki’H” they hide what they think. He also said that many Arabs in the country celebrate and rejoice in the act.

    D. There is not a single Arab country that has not had pogroms against Jews. And none of them has to this day retracted these acts...especially those that do not condemn the massacre that took place in our country.

    E. Muhammad behaved exactly like Hamas, he is the Muslim ideal.

    In light of the above, I understand that every Arab Muslim is at the level of a ticking bomb, maybe not now and maybe not in ten years, but the risk is enormous.
    Therefore, there is a kind of persecutory law in this entire population that has a high percentage of violent extremists within it. I am not saying kill it. But transfer is the most logical option right now. Because we will always be in fear that they will turn on us tomorrow.
    This is true for the Gazans, it is true for Egypt and Jordan, with whom there is nothing to be done at the moment.
    The reason we are not deporting the Israeli Arabs is that there is currently no action on the ground, but as soon as there is, it shows that the thought has been translated into behavior within them, and then there is no choice but to deport them as well.

    1. I was reminded of this response now, when I read the following article:
      https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1001460426

  20. I didn't understand why you keep repeating that the execution of something we already knew is not significant;
    There is a difference between things that happened in reality and things that didn't happen.
    If someone tried to murder and didn't succeed, the punishment he receives is less than if he both tried and succeeded.
    Zil Keri B is a great man.

    1. I didn't go over and over again, because there's no need. It's as simple as that. I referred to the columns that explain it, for those who don't understand something so simple themselves. Indeed, only a rabbi could accept such nonsense.

  21. Strong and blessed,
    I also think there could be a rational response that on the surface also appears emotional. As long as they take advantage of the global momentum (which is unfortunately decreasing of course), it seems possible to attack with the air force as much as possible (of course not just civilian targets) and gradually introduce and return military forces to the Strip (similar to Lebanon, only without the withdrawal part) and later even restore Israeli settlement maintained by the army and alert classes, restore the situation that existed before the disengagement, which was much better from a security and intellectual perspective (in fact, in areas that are not hermetically sealed, you have more security control. What do Gaza, Nablus, Jenin and Ramallah have in common? Area A with terrorist nests) and not just because we really want the White Sands back.
    May we have good news in Gaza:)

  22. I agree with the basic statement of the column (that one should act from reason and not from emotion) and I even said so before reading the column.
    But I still have a few comments about the column.
    A. Rabbi Sharki was referring to innocent people whom Hamas cynically uses to protect itself. That is, hospitals located above Hamas headquarters and the like. That the destruction of Hamas also justifies the damage to hospitals.
    B. Why is it impractical to dismantle Hamas? Now the State of Israel has informed the citizens of the Gaza Strip that we have annexed the northern part of the Strip. After that, they can bomb with much greater freedom.
    C. I assume that this has already been written above, but I don't think the Allies planned what exactly to do with Berlin after the war before they occupied it. Of course, that doesn't mean they shouldn't have occupied it. Just because they don't know what they will do after the war with Gaza doesn't mean that the situation can be left as it is.
    D. Although I did not change my opinion about revenge following the massacre that Hamas committed (unlike quite a few leftists who probably didn't really bother to think about revenge before), I definitely changed my opinion about Hamas. I thought that it was possible to deal with the fact that the organization exists and that there would be deterrence against it. Your argument on the subject is that the only thing that was new about the massacre was that Hamas succeeded and in fact we always knew that it was trying to do such things. The cruelty of Hamas that was revealed in this attack is on a level we had never known before. Therefore, it turned out that this is an organization that cannot exist in the world, because it is absolute evil. Besides, the success itself taught us that this organization poses an absolute danger to us and that we cannot remain in a situation where it is deterred but must be destroyed. In other words, in this case, the success of the act made us understand the danger in which we are exposed as a result of the organization's existence. Therefore, success is very significant in this case.

  23. Good evening. Two questions not really related to the article above, but I didn't see any other way to make contact. First - why do you use the title “Rabbi”, including in the title of this site? Don't you think that the need for the title “Rabbi” has already passed and its continued use is unnecessary and even ridiculous? If Hillel and Shemaiah, Antigonus, Abaye, Raba and Rabbah, all the prophets, and even Moses, the greatest of all, knew how to get by without the titles of “Rabbi” and so on, why do you find it appropriate to act differently?
    Second - do you think that the security-economic situation, etc. of the people of Israel is conditioned by the question of how faithful they are to the Torah and its commandments, or is there no connection between the two? Thank you in advance, especially for your willingness to answer such dubious questions in these turbulent times.

    1. I don't use this title, but several other people do, including the editor and founder of the site. I also don't understand why you think the need for it has disappeared.

      I don't think it's related.

      1. Thank you very much for your honest and quick answer.
        Regarding your answer that, in your opinion, there is no connection between observance of the Torah and commandments and the success of the Jewish people, then it follows (if your assessment is correct) that most of the Holy Books, including the Torah and Prophets, were written in a way that seeks to plant in our heads and souls clearly false understandings, with the sole purpose of making us behave in a certain way.
        Do you believe that it is a correct educational and leadership method to use lies and manipulations to make the masses behave in a certain way? And if so, how is it that manipulations do not work on smart people (like us, of course) but only on stupid and ignorant people?
        And in general, if this is indeed the case, why do you choose to be religious / observant of the commandments, and not just religious but a “rabbi”, if in fact the entire foundation on which you rely is full of a culture of lies and baseless manipulations? How can you live in peace with the clear (and depressing) understanding that all the prophets/editors of the Holy Books actually fed us with slander (subject, of course, to your answer to the first question)?! Isn't there a very serious logical fallacy here, at least outwardly, in behavior that takes on the burden of a commandment?!

        1. You have jumped very far. Decisiveness is nice, but it is no substitute for orderly and logical thinking. You have decided that the Scriptures tell lies, which you could not deduce from my words. If you would like to examine this issue and not jump to conclusions right away, you are welcome to read my trilogy, and also here on the site, on the issue of divine providence and intervention in the world.

  24. Your Honor,
    How would you propose fighting the Nazis (the comparison, always, was appropriate)?
    Is the difference that Hamas does not have the ability?
    The education in Gaza and Jerusalem is that killing Jews is a mitzvah that must be killed, what can be done with such people?
    Why, when it comes to a dispute with another nation, is a person who supports my death but does not implement it entitled to protection?

    1. Who says we should have fought the Nazis?!? Aren't Dresden and Hamburg a moral disgrace?!

  25. It is recommended to read a little before writing columns with false information.

    For example, those who started bringing Gazan workers into Israel were Naftali Bennett and Benny Gantz (the one you voted for in the last elections).

    Bibi only barely held on to them.

    So who really is the “biggest Hamas booster”?

    1. To the commenter – Gil:

      You are wrong and misleading.
      Bringing in workers from Gaza was also Netanyahu's policy throughout his years in power, this is really not a Gantz-Bennett precedent.
      In addition, Netanyahu's strategy of adopting a security approach to strengthening Hamas's rule of the Strip at the expense of the PA exploded in our faces.

      It is recommended to check the data before responding to this or that column.

      1. Hello Lidor.
        A message like this from “Gil” is either the product of a brainwashed bibist, or of a shrewd idiot, or of a bot (mechanical or human) operated by the bibist poison machine. That's why I don't usually respond to such people. Their stupidity is proven by design. I didn't censor it just because it's possible that it's just an idiot, and this site is also open to fools.
        Beyond the factual lie, the only question that matters is what the connection is between the question of nurturing and financing Hamas and entry permits for workers from Gaza.
        But since you've already responded, here's a link I saw yesterday, which contains firsthand testimony (there are of course many more like it): https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/h1tzvqd11t

        1. By the way, Bibi's policy of nurturing and strengthening Hamas is a legitimate mistake. A person can make mistakes in his policy, and it's easiest to be wise in hindsight. What is illegitimate is his pathological lies, his blaming and smearing others, and his failure to take responsibility. This is exactly what Daniel Friedman noticed at the end of his post. Bibi will try to stay in his seat and not take responsibility for this policy of his. He is already doing so. In my opinion, there will be another civil war over this after the current war.

          1. By the way, he will take responsibility for this and change the policy in Gaza, of course. But it would never occur to him to resign so that some stupid leftist (a general lacking ideology who wants to be Rabin's successor) or a pseudo-rightist like Sharon could come up and carry out another disengagement from the Jewish state and establish a Palestinian state that would become Gaza number 2 squared or one-fifth.
            This damage will really be Bibi's full responsibility. Because the left is too stupid to be
            responsible for its actions.
            I heard that you yourself supported disengagement. If this is true, I wonder if you yourself take responsibility for your support for her, as she was the primary cause of this massacre, even before you accuse Bibi of taking responsibility (he had already repented when he did not evacuate any more communities even when he was already facing an indictment and when he remained in the Likud of the time, which received 13 seats in the elections, which later, and Kadima, were in the shadow of its success).

          2. It is very sad that this is Rabbi Michi's opinion. When I was a child, I was unable to understand the logic of the enlightened left. Sad.

    2. Gil,
      Bibi is a man of many rights, and a leader whose contribution to the State of Israel is on a historic scale. I voted for him several times and even now I have not forgotten his enormous rights.

      And yet: after the last of the soldiers returns safely, everyone who was at the top of the defense establishment in recent years must pack their belongings and say goodbye permanently to public life. Usually, resigning is not taking responsibility, but rather throwing responsibility away. But someone under whose watch such a major blunder, such a blackout, occurred cannot be the one to rebuild the IDF from the ruins. The terrible results are only a sign, not a cause.

      1. And by the way, a leader whose excuse is "I was a slave" is probably not in the right profession.

      2. A few things:

        1. I really don't care how I look to the left, but I don't care to the right either. Thank God I'm not a public figure.

        2. The public appoints the heads of the system, not the functions at the middle levels. The new prime minister and defense minister will decide whether and which generals or brigadiers should be fired. A leader who is unable to straighten out his subordinates is like a carpenter who is unable to saw planks, meaning: by definition he doesn't understand his job (or can't do it). Such a person should go home even if what happened hadn't happened.

        And let's make no mistake, people like Bennett, Gantz, and Eisenkot are among those who should go home. I really hope that a new generation of people will arise in the Likud who understands where they are.

        1. How can he bend everyone? What power does he have? I'm telling you that they don't respect their voters and from their perspective (secretly) there shouldn't be any elections at all. And that's how all the state officials think. The invitations to oust everyone were lost when Begin came to serve and not to inherit. As God Almighty said, "And if you don't let them go... they will become trinkets in your eyes and pots by your sides."

          No right-winger can be a prime minister like that. So you're saying that's why no prime minister should actually be a right-winger? So is democracy?

            1. Come on. If that's what you call reasoning... a pile of questions loaded with implied implications, without any real detail. The reader's emotions are supposed to do the work for you. The usual tool of those who weave conspiracy theories that depend on nothing.

              I participated in the demonstrations against the disengagement. Yes, we got beaten up there at the roadblocks and we protested about it. The protest contributed its share to changing the law enforcement system's attitude towards roadblocks long before the protest against the reform. Crowds got stuck in traffic jams on Ayalon following the disabled people's demonstrations, so did I. Now you're using this success to prove that the system is hypocritical against you. Well, Schwein. The cry of the successful Cossack.

              The Jews are not in the system. If private citizens who create an organization for the sake of protest are an example of a conspiracy, and a malicious one, I have to worry about it... Well, we've been surrounded by conspiracies since the dawn of humanity, and it's better not to leave the house, or the cave. Of course, these are complete nonsense.

              It's okay if you were talking about the pilots' refusal. At least there, we're talking about people who hold levers of power, because they hold positions within the defense establishment. But I won't do the work for you. You'll have to flatten your conspiracy theory before I bother to throw it in the trash too. It's not like you know how to build an argument. Just throw loaded questions and pat yourself on the back that you're a good-hearted right-wing Jew and I'm some kind of Smolensk hater who hates Israel. You're that superficial and full of yourself.

              I'm a right-winger, not an idiot. Don't fool me with delusional arguments that can be debunked with a minute of common sense and 5 minutes of Google. You've gone off the rails a long time ago. After more than a thousand people have been murdered, I no longer intend to be nice to you. You are beyond salvation and your place and the place of people like you is on the fringes of the political system.

              One of the biggest regrets I have in the past week is that I didn't take propaganda gluttons like you more seriously when you were still a tiny minority, that I focused too much on my family and my life and not on what you are doing for the country. After we finish with Hamas, we will make sure that you and your ilk return to where you deserve to be - on the fringes of Israeli politics, along with Bibi and the rest of the imbeciles in this government. Until then, confuse yourself and know for yourself.

  26. Corrected response from errors:

    It amazes me how stupid you are, Mikhi. It surprises me every time

    There are no innocent people in Gaza. Gaza is an enemy state. It has collective responsibility for everything the regime does. It is a collective criminal and should be punished with a collective punishment for this crime. I don't care that the regime in Gaza doesn't care about its citizens. It's like that in every country that has a terrorist regime. Did Saddam Hussein care about his citizens? Didn't we have the right and the duty to launch missiles at Iraqi cities populated by civilians in response to the missile fire that was going on here, because of your nonsense about "morality"?

    Did the Communist Party in the USSR care about the citizens of the USSR? Didn't the Americans have the right to launch nuclear missiles at Soviet cities in response to the latter firing nuclear missiles at US cities?

    I see a whole world of idiots on the left and just Israel-haters from around the world who cling to a legal definition that is empty of content for the concept of a "terrorist organization," which is simply the rule of an enemy state, and because of which hundreds of soldiers have died in Gaza since the 1990s, and then dozens and now thousands of civilians (which is itself a stupid and empty distinction).
    There is no such thing as terrorism. There are only terrorist attacks. And terrorist attacks are followed by terrorist attacks. That's what they did in the Irgun before the establishment of the state and later in the Haganah organization, which initially opposed retaliatory actions inside Arab villages, and when it suffered terrorist attacks in its communities it realized it had no choice. That's why the 101st Unit was established. Otherwise it's like fighting with a sword against a rifle.

    With missiles, you fight a hundred times more missiles (because that's the only thing that will hurt them). Anything else is like fighting with a knife against a machine gun.

    And if the world doesn't allow us to do this (in its hypocrisy and stupidity) then the country should be dismantled and the Western countries should allow us to immigrate to their lands and give us houses and in return they will receive the country's assets and the houses here. There is no point in having a country that is unable to protect its citizens like any other country in the world would do.

      1. Hello Mikhi. It seems to me that what has now become clear is not something qualitative about Hamas itself but about our ways of dealing with them.
        There are several concepts here that have been proven (finally) to be wrong. Starting with the concept of returning territories, of managing the conflict/strengthening Hamas and the hopes of conducting some kind of informal dialogue with them. The events that have occurred have proven that it is impossible to continue with these concepts because their price is unbearable and in order to prevent this from happening again and again in the future, we must change direction and strive to finally negate the threat of Hamas and not continue in the ways we have tried to date in managing this conflict.

        Therefore, responses along the lines of “collapsing Hamas” or “eliminating the threat” They are not necessarily emotional reactions, certainly when they come from experienced and thoughtful experts such as Giora Eiland or Yoram Cohen, but rather a rational recognition that we must change course and strive for a solution that will definitively eliminate this threat. I would be happy for you to answer me (without cynicism if possible. Thank you)

        1. Note: When I say final solution, I mean the denial of Hamas' military capabilities. Not the massive bombing of Gaza and other vegetables. Another note: The concepts that collapsed were shared not only by Bibi but by the entire security establishment over the years. In my opinion, it is naive to think that if there had been a different prime minister now or even, say, in the last ten years, then it would have looked different. When the entire security establishment comes from the same line of thought, there is no chance of going against them.

        2. The only thing that has been renewed is about us. That there are crazy failures in the army and the government. That doesn't say anything new about them and the policy towards them.
          I hope that people in executive positions really act from the head. Unfortunately, I'm not sure at all.

          1. Question for the Rabbi
            I don't understand security at all and I don't have a military background yet (before conscription) but why doesn't Israel decide to gradually destroy Hamas over the years, meaning instead of declaring on every platform that the war won't end until Hamas is completely destroyed, telling the public that from now on we are changing the equation (indeed, a big question, what happened suddenly that the equation with Hamas changed and the Rabbi has already discussed this) and working to destroy Hamas over the years, however long it takes (with intelligence gathering and everything necessary to make it effective and efficient)

    1. Easy correction:
      I wrote that there is no such thing as terrorism. What I mean, of course, is that there is no such thing as terrorism in reality, but only war. Justified or unjustified. Terrorism is not a bad thing. It is a means of warfare. Like a poisoned arrow. If it is used for justified purposes (for example, as a response to terrorism by the enemy. And in fact, it does not have to be a response to terrorism) then it is justified.

  27. Rabbi Uri Sharki's response:

    The things that were published against my moral position that Gaza has reached a decisive trial of history are guilty of a serious moral error.

    A. Because war is not the establishment of a court. If that were the case, we would have to prohibit any shooting that does not save from immediate danger to life. Every enemy soldier should have been put on trial with a defense attorney. The truth is that killing the enemy is not because he is a criminal – because then we would have had to examine the degree of his wickedness, and also distinguish between a criminal and an innocent. We kill the enemy because he is an enemy, not because he is a criminal.

    B. In war, there is no individual, there is a rule. One collective entity fights another collective entity.

    C. The fact that the world is full of wars is an unfortunate fact, but it should not be ignored. Every going to war is first examined from a moral perspective: whether it is just or unjust. Once it has been decided that it is right, it acts according to the rules of war, whose main goal is to subdue the enemy.

    D. Subduing the enemy requires a clear recognition of what is considered a loss for it. For Hamas, dying in battle is not considered a loss, but a reward. Losing sovereignty over territory is considered a loss for it, and it is also very possible that cruel behavior toward it, like the village lunatic, does subdue it.

    E. There are certainly situations in which an entire society has been disqualified from being part of the equation of human relations because of its general wickedness, which is the fruit of its culture. In such a case, the righteous within it are not victims of the one fighting among them, but rather victims of the wicked who run their society. E. Eradicating evil from the world, even when it requires extraordinary behavior, is a moral task of the highest order, and avoiding it is tantamount to accepting evil.

    F. My position does not stem from bloodlust but from a pure moral consideration.

    G. I refrained from citing supporting sources from Jewish literature, because the author is famous for not accepting the authority of the written Torah (in his opinion, the Bible is a useless book that is a shame to waste time studying) and of the oral Torah (in his opinion, a sage has no more authority than any rational person), so the discussion is not taking place on a Torah level.

    Uri Sharki
    ***
    The rabbi's words are in response to the article by Rabbi Dr. Michael Avraham, "A Look at Revenge: Mind and Heart (Volume 596)."

    1. Well, there is no point in repeating ourselves. Therefore, I will only add one point.
      Rabbi Sharki makes a bitter mistake in understanding war and the parties involved in it. Indeed, in war collectives confront each other, but every person within such a collective is both an individual and a member of the collective. Very important conclusions are derived from this, and the dispute here is an excellent example of this.
      I discussed this mistake in my article in Bezhar Yad:
      https://mikyab.net/%d7%9e%d7%90%d7%9e%d7%a8%d7%99%d7%9d/%d7%94%d7%99%d7%91%d7%98%d7%99%d7%9d-%d7%90%d7%a7%d7%98%d7%95%d7%90%d7%9c %d7%99%d7%99%d7%9d-%d7%9c%d7%91%d7%a2%d7%99%d7%99%d7%aa-%d7%94 %d7%a4%d7%a8%d7%98-%d7%95%d7%94%d7%9b%d7%9c%d7%9c-%d7%95%d7%93/
      and from an angle It's also different in my article in Machanich: https://mikyab.net/%d7%9e%d7%90%d7%9e%d7%a8%d7%99%d7%9d/%d7%9e%d7%91%d7%98-%d7%a0%d7%95%d7%a1%d7%a3-%d7%a2%d7%9c-%d7%97%d7%95%d7%91%d7%aa-%d7%94%d7%99%d7%97%d7%99%d7%93-%d7%91%d7%aa%d7%a4%d7%a7%d7%99%d7%93-%d7%a6%d7%99%d7%91%d7%95%d7%a8%d7%99/

    2. I agree with the entire article, and my conclusion is still that going to war and crushing Hamas is the right course of action.
      You should always consider all solutions, even the less intuitive ones that are flattering, but you shouldn't fall in love with thinking outside the box.
      You could say that to a certain extent we tried such creative solutions with Hamas: we used a lot (missiles, balloons, drones, riots on the fence), we responded relatively proportionally to repeated attacks, we dealt mainly with defense and not offense (underground wall, Iron Dome), we swallowed our pride and made an unbalanced prisoner exchange to say the least. Bibi's entire general approach of keeping Hamas weak can be seen as ’strategic thinking outside the box’. In other words, for 20 years, the policy was not a gut-wrenching move that accelerated Hamas's expansion, perhaps actually entering and dismantling the organization is the new solution that we haven't tried so far?
      Do you agree that there are organizations that need to be eliminated (Nazis, ISIS, etc., everyone has already compared..)? If so, why don't you believe that this cannot be done to Hamas (maybe you elaborated in another article?).
      In any case, regarding the difference before and after the terrible massacre – you are right, there is no essential difference, at least philosophically. First, there are quite a few who were surprised by the level of cruelty, even if we believed that it was their heart's desire. I am at least surprised by the image attack they made for themselves, but you should not assume your rationality on the enemy.
      The essential pragmatic difference is the international legitimacy that we received through such an operation. You ask how long it will last? Let's hope that however long it takes, it would be hypocrisy on their part to respond to us in time, it also took them time and a painful price in innocent lives to carry out their important missions.

      I believe this is an international mission, Western countries are complacent to the Islamic monsters that continue to emerge, grow and swell in the world. There is a tendency to think that this kind of evil has disappeared in the world, and that everything is just cold and economic wars between the US and Russia and China. We are the West's confidant in this struggle, and I think the tokens started to fall after Black Sabbath.

      1. I can agree with everything you wrote. I'm just commenting that it's not worth acting from the gut. Regarding the assessments of whether we will succeed in destroying Hamas and solving the problem, time will tell. I hope you're right. By the way, nowhere did I write about containing harm to us. That's the most illogical thing there is, and I've written about it here in the past. In my opinion, this wasn't exactly an action from the head.

  28. At first I thought that when the Rabbi said, "Seeing all of Gaza as a target from the start is, in my opinion, definitely something close to a Nazi idea," it is impossible that the Rabbi meant these words seriously. But throughout the article, which deals with a very important and relevant topic, I understand that the Rabbi really, really wants him and his entire family to be destroyed in the coming generations, thank you.
    Let's imagine a situation (not so far away) in which the State of Israel enters a war with Iran. Let's say that in such a situation, ballistic missiles land on the State of Israel on a daily basis. Would the Rabbi still say that it is impossible to see all of Iran as a target because it is almost a Nazi idea???
    Does the Rabbi think that when the United States dropped two (!!!) atomic bombs on Japan, it actually joined the circle of the Reich states?
    And all this before the very small separation between the Jews who lived in Europe before the Holocaust, who did not have a state and did not murder Aryan Germans every day, and the Nazis' goal was to destroy them as a people and a nation, between the State of Israel and Gaza, which is ultimately a war between armies and countries, and that they have been slaughtering us every day for decades, and the State of Israel has no interest in destroying the Gazans as a people and a nation.
    I hope for an explanation of these things

    1. Dear Nathaniel. It is difficult to correspond with a person who lacks the ability to read (or whose emotionality overshadows it). The answer is in white Kiddush letters in the body of the column, and if you didn't understand it there, there is no point in repeating it here.

      1. I intended to respond substantively (after re-reading the article) but then I went through the rabbi's responses to other people and realized that the problem is not mine… So I will just say that it is difficult to respond to a person who does not know how to accept criticism, who lives in a self-centered (or makes himself) and is focused on himself and his opinions.
        Too bad…
        In any case, I managed to take from the article the honest and correct things (in my opinion of course) and filter out all the moral imagery…
        Thank you very much!

        1. To Rabbi Avraham Michael, I appreciate you very much, I even read a number of your books and articles, I also read this article and was impressed.

          You are not a strategist, you are not an expert in geopolitics and foreign policy, nor in military force building, nor in military tactics, nor in any of these matters, and so you testify about yourself, and yet you wrote what you wrote and still
          Don't judge your friend until you get to his place

          I will leave this video here
          https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02bHBuCXvctfNRAo1CyL3xzMm1ZcYL4Gw3wK59zr1PL3nAWc7Gx4PtuCiSduMNgLTgl&id=100004811174425&mibextid=2JQ9oc

          And now tell me exactly what you think?

          And yes, calmly as she speaks.

          Yigal

          1. Dear Yigal. As someone who speaks in the name of rationality and composure, I would expect your sentence that ends with a question mark to contain a question. I failed to discern a question in all your words.
            You stated that I am not an expert in any fields, and that is true. It is just that I do not understand how what I wrote is related to military or geopolitical expertise (in parentheses I also say that I do not really believe in experts in these fields. And I think that after that damned Sabbath it is difficult for any sane person to believe in them)? This column was dedicated to the importance of reason and against emotional activity. That is all. As for the question of what conclusions arise from such intellectual thinking, I left that to the readers.
            I also do not see, even with a microscope, a connection between the things in the video you posted here and my words in the column.
            In short, if you want to discuss something, you will have to formulate a question, otherwise we are wasting our time.

  29. Quote: “In my opinion, there is no justification for razing Hawara or Gaza. They were wrong in the past and are still wrong today. This is a crazy moral injustice, and as I thought then, so is my opinion now. Harming innocent people is an injustice and targeting them (as Rabbi Zeini or Rabbi Sharki write) is a moral scandal. *Even a person who supports murder does not deserve the death penalty*, and his baby even less so. And those in Gaza who do not support murder, and there are some, certainly do not deserve to be wiped off the face of the earth”.

    I was just asking: Does your opinion not contradict the ruling of the Rambam”m (Hilchot Melchim 9:14): “And as they command the judges, they are obligated to seat judges and judges in every province and province to discuss these six commandments and warn the people, and a son of Noah who violates one of these seven commandments shall be killed by the sword. How is it that one who worships idols, or who blesses the name of God, or who sheds blood, or who is one of the six harlots, or who steals even less than the value of a penny, or who eats any part of an animal or meat from an animal, or who sees someone committing one of these and does not judge and kill him, then he will be killed by the sword. And because of this, all the owners of Shechem are obligated to kill, because Shechem stole, and they saw and knew and did not judge him?

    I am mainly discussing the conceptual meaning of your words, which contradicts the conceptual meaning that emerges from the halakha ruled by the Rambam. I am not discussing the fact.

    1. And I just answer: In your opinion, there are more people who deserve death in the IDF. A person who deliberately violates the Sabbath should be executed by stoning. And we haven't even talked about adultery and the like.
      As for the application of this matter to war, and it is in the strange words of the Ramban about the people of Shechem who were killed because of this, see the Ramban who disagreed with him. If you appointed yourself a judge who executes criminals, you should announce it publicly so that we all know to stay away from you.

      1. I emphasized that I am not actually discussing the question.
        From a moral perspective, your morality probably exceeds the morality of Maimonides in his "strange" remarks.

        1. I didn't actually answer either. The statement by Maimonides has nothing to do with morality. It's a halachic statement, just like the punishment of stoning for desecrating the Sabbath. And with that, your last demagogic comment is also removed.

  30. You have a fundamental error in your approach. You have lost Christian-Western morality mixed with you have lost education and a comprehensive view. There is no such thing as innocent in war, certainly not among a Muslim population that voted for Hamas and supported en masse the bringing of the kidnapped. A supporter of murder must be murdered, that is the most Jewish morality there is, and anyone who opposes it is a traitor to his nation. Keep talking about Kant and Yom, where you are more or less on track (and there I also disagree with you on a million things, but that is another discussion) and let us quietly destroy the entire Strip. You know what, we will give them a chance to escape to other countries. That is the only Christian morality that is willing to accept

  31. “Agreement” with Hamas? I don't understand what's rational about that.
    Are the residents of Gaza innocent? They elected Hamas in democratic elections and celebrate every murder of a Jew.
    Shavuot 39 A: “And I set my face against that man and his family! And Tanya, the Rabbi said: If he sinned, what sin did his family commit? To tell you: You don't have a family that has a tax collector who is not all tax collectors, and that has a lechter who is not all lechter, because they cover up for him”.
    He says: They are not innocent, but they cover up for the crime.

  32. You say that the expulsion of Gaza's Arabs is not a serious option.
    First, I'll ask whether you think there is a moral problem with this? If we assume that it solves the problem, at the cost of harming innocent people (just expulsion, not many deaths) it is a moral action.
    Is it possible?
    It seems that the Egyptians are worried and see this as a possible and very reasonable option on Israel's part. And we also saw in 1948 the expulsion/exile/escape of many Arabs from the country, with determination and a little effort it seems possible.
    Do our leaders mean it seriously?
    Unfortunately, for now it seems not.

    1. I have written several times and also in a column that no harm is problematic if it is necessary to protect us. I very much doubt whether it is practical. If harm does not help or does not materialize, it is forbidden.

  33. You wrote that it was possible to harm innocent Gazan prisoners in order to save the captives. Why? Would it have been equally possible to harm an American citizen? What's the difference?

    1. As is the custom of every person, it can be assumed that you also write from your gut, but your gut reaction is to write the opposite of others.

      1. *** Oh my homeland, a bald rocky mountain. The policy on the site is not to censor idiots, even at a low level like you. But it has to be at least similar to an argument or claim to stay. That's why I deleted it. I strongly suggest you drink a glass of water and then study psychology before you issue diagnoses to the universe. The truth is, even with the training, I don't have high hopes. Some people have inherent limitations. ***

  34. His Honor is probably an intellectual..

    “Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.”
    -George Orwell

  35. There is no doubt that emotions here are dangerously high, but I think a more rational (and optimistic?) reading of the events can also be presented:
    • Concept – Our political and military leaders assessed that money trumps ideology: as Hamas establishes itself as sovereign in Gaza, it will become more responsible and will not seek a comprehensive confrontation, and we will have greater leverage to pressure it. The policy of maintaining peace also enabled the strategic rapprochement with the Arab world.
    • Innovation – The attack on Eid proved that Hamas is completely part of the Iranian array around us, which is designed to harm us even at the expense of the well-being of its subjects, like Hezbollah in Lebanon.
    • Conclusion – Since the end has been reached for attempts at normalization, the rare legitimacy must be exploited and Hamas as a military organization destroyed. Since its military assets are largely protected underground, a thorough destruction of the Gaza Strip's cities will be required.

  36. What is the explanation that I am forbidden to harm civilians? Is the war between individuals or between national entities?
    And you wrote in your article that there are cases where it is permissible to harm innocent people. Is the consideration of harming innocent people supposed to reduce our activity or, God forbid, cause harm to our forces?

      1. You did not answer my basic argument that war is not between individuals but between nations. Just read the Judges section.
        If you think it is morally wrong, of course that is your right, but it is not as well-informed as you present it.

        1. It is clear that war is between nations. For that, you don't need the Judges case.
          I already answered above and in my lame articles there: https://mikyab.net/posts/83006#comment-77118

  37. Regarding what you wrote in the post ” I'm not sure what's new now?”

    1. It became clear to us that Hamas is capable of doing much more damage than we thought, and therefore we need to deal with this scourge more vigorously.
    2. Until now, we thought it was better to avoid a ground entry and save the amount of losses resulting from it and absorb the occasional rocket from Hamas, now it turns out that the losses from a ground entry are probably preferable to not entering.

    1. Oh, and one more thing, it's possible that up until today we also wanted to do a major operation and enter by ground, but we knew that it would be very difficult for us internationally if we did that, and now that we have broad international legitimacy, this is a good opportunity to address the scourge of Hamas.

    2. 1. It really hasn't become clear now. What has become clear is that the IDF is more incompetent than we thought. That Hamas wants and can do damage has always been clear. We just thought the IDF could cope, and it turned out that it probably wasn't.
      We need to understand that the IDF is not stepping in now to prevent future attacks. It is also stepping in to prevent rocket fire, which was an ancient threat to us and we let it develop (and even assisted it in various ways).
      In short, in my opinion, nothing new has been discovered now except for the IDF's blunder.
      Regarding the opportunity of international credit, that is certainly true (although I very much doubt how long it will continue and with what results) and that is not what I was talking about. As far as I am concerned, it is definitely worth taking advantage of, but doing so wisely and with defined and logical goals, and not out of feelings of revenge alone.

  38. I'm surprised that things that are not new – think before you act – which is always true. attract so many reactions. Even the pessimistic forecast is not very sophisticated – the situation is terrible – and there is no good way out of it. If you were betting on a good solution, you would take more risk.
    I wonder if there are situations in which the heart should lead – like wars that the determined won and not the wise (maybe marriage?), and I dream that perhaps in such an exceptional case Bibi will behave rationally (honesty is exaggerated) and manage things in our favor as well.

    1. The reactions are that the result of this thought was somehow surrendering to them (or pretending to). Sometimes you have to believe truly and rightly and take a risk. And there is no wisdom here either. When Hezbollah sees this, think about what its reaction will be to such containment. Sometimes the rational thing to do is to go crazy and go wild. I think this has even been studied in the framework of game theory. You can't beat a crazy person without resorting to madness.

  39. You wrote that it is justified to harm the residents of Gaza if it will be beneficial because they are part of the persecuting collective. Let's say that most of the residents of Gaza do not support Hamas, so in what way are they part of the same collective that we are fighting and why are they responsible for them?

    1. If they were Swedes, their law would be different. If Gaza were Melbourne, so be it. In the future, I suggest waiting ten seconds of thought and wording before writing a question.

  40. What do you think, when will there ever be an end to the thousand-faced incarnation of this conflict?

    1. And oh, God, I hope for a response devoid of typical Micah cynicism.

        1. You've heard from several friends since this article that they've stopped taking Michael Abraham seriously. I'm sure, even if you don't admit it publicly, that you regret writing the article.

  41. Now, after a year, the head of the Shin Bet has also reached my conclusion from the end of the column (which was written 5 days after October 7). I am happy with his happiness. 🙂
    https://www.srugim.co.il/1042441-%d7%a8%d7%90%d7%a9-%d7%94%d7%9e%d7%95%d7%a1%d7%93-%d7%9c%d7%a9%d7%a2%d7%91%d7%a8-%d7%91-8-10-%d7%94%d7%99%d7%94-%d7%a6%d 7%a8%d7%99%d7%9a-%d7%9c%d7%a9%d7%97%d7%a8%d7%a8-%d7%90%d7%aa-%d7%9b%d7%9c?di=1&utm_source=mivzakimnet&utm_medium=xhtml&utm_campaign=mivzakimnet

  42. “I believe that the raging war euphoria that is now being created is going to take us to a predetermined chronicle of another glorious failure”
    Why does the Rabbi believe that there will be a glorious failure here? Is it because of the raging war euphoria?

Leave a Reply

Back to top button