Are “considerations of modesty” extra-halakhic considerations? Innocently, I thought modesty was backed by sources in Jewish law. By way of illustration, are “Taliban-style” modesty considerations also legitimate?

Goralin,

Could it be that you stole the idea that was published here four days ago?

https://www.kikar.co.il/371769.html

Dear Gnimin, indeed I stole the idea, but theft wasn’t my intention. On the contrary, I wanted to spare the writer embarrassment, and that’s why I didn’t post a link.

If you wanted to spare the writer embarrassment, I assume you thought his words were nonsense.
So why ask here whether they’re correct?

A. To be precise, this is not a Haredi custom. Rather, it is a Hasidic custom! (See the article.)
B. As far as I know, this custom applies only at a spring in the middle of a hiking trail. At the sea and at the pool, Hasidim go into the water like everyone else.
C. True, there are also Lithuanians who would themselves feel that it is beneath their dignity to undress in the middle of a trail. And everything depends on the degree of a person’s sense of importance and/or sense of modesty. (As the Rabbi also wrote.)
D. The writer’s idea based on the Jerusalem Talmud is interesting and thought-provoking, but the connection to our issue is probably nonsense, since as we saw, at the sea and at the pool Hasidim bathe like everyone else.
E. Sparing the writer embarrassment is most commendable. Though the “Kikar HaShabbat” site is already disgraceful in itself, so one more embarrassment here or there doesn’t really make much difference.
(Written a bit out of boredom, but I hope I was helpful. —
Though one could discuss the case of a descendant of a Nazi who converted, became Haredi, then became Hasidic, and entered a spring fully clothed — what would his status be?)

The question is what Hasidim do abroad.
What does the question whether this is Jewish law have to do with the question whether it needs a source? Even if modesty is a matter of Jewish law, there is no reason to assume that every modest practice requires a source. Jewish law says one must be modest, and now each person decides what modesty is.
And as was nicely pointed out here, even this question, which looked as though it was serious and therefore I didn’t delete it, as is my usual practice, was also just meant to provoke, since you yourself understood that there’s nothing to it and just asked anyway. Next time maybe I’ll delete it automatically.

Dear friends, my question was a “leading question”; please look further at my question about “Taliban-style” modesty…
Rabbi Michi, where does Jewish law say one must be modest? Do modest practices not require a source? What does it mean that now each person decides what modesty is — was this law given in varying measures: bikini, bikini + top, bikini + top + shorts, and so on upward in holiness until full Hasidic Cossack-style dress?

Well, now the question is relevant. (Maybe all the descriptions of swimwear weren’t necessary, but fine.)
The source for the laws of modesty is in the Tur and the Shulchan Arukh, section 2, based on the Talmudic passages cited there in Chagigah and Ta’anit.
Modesty in essence is before the Holy One, blessed be He, and not modesty before other people.
And see the Mishnah Berurah, note 1: “And so too when bathing in a river the law is the same. One should just be careful to undress and dress near the river as much as possible so as not to walk with one’s body exposed unnecessarily.”
And the view of Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach is (Halikhot Shlomo, Prayer, ch. 2, sec. 22) that one should not be stringent in these matters beyond what is explicitly mentioned.
And see Igrot Moshe (Yoreh De’ah, vol. 3, no. 47, sec. 3), which distinguishes based on local custom. (Warm countries.)
And again I’ll remind you: besides the fact that there are always those who want to be stringent and conduct themselves with extra piety, there is also a sense of importance appropriate to one’s station.
For even among the nations of the world, to distinguish, you will find that kings and rulers do not conduct themselves like ordinary folk.
And I won’t go on at length…

By the way, it is worth knowing that our master, the great sage, the prince of Torah, Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky, may he live a long good life, urges people to wear shirts with long sleeves, even children just beginning to study the Five Books of the Torah, because otherwise they absentmindedly touch their elbow, and this causes difficulty in learning and weakness of memory.

It should be noted that Putin (while in office) and Obama (after he finished) published photos of themselves with their stomachs and arms exposed.

Tzachi, what do egomaniacal feelings such as those of kings, rulers, ascetics, and Hasidim have to do with the laws of modesty?
Bathing in full Hasidic Cossack-style dress is supposedly about modesty — what’s wrong with a wetsuit, which both covers the body completely and preserves a person’s dignity?
Your answer is very partial; see Babylonian Talmud Shabbat 41a — in the final analysis, they bathed naked!!!

With God’s help, 28 Av 5780

Maimonides too writes in Laws of Character Traits 5:6: “Torah scholars conduct themselves with great modesty. They do not disgrace themselves and do not uncover their heads or their bodies. Even when entering the latrine, one should be modest and not uncover one’s clothes until one sits… and one should distance oneself from all people and enter a room within a room, a cave within a cave, and relieve oneself…”

And likewise in law 9, when describing the dress of Torah scholars, Maimonides writes that the garment of a Torah scholar should reach “to his heel, and the sleeve to the tips of his fingers.” The source of his words is Rabbi Bena’ah’s statement: “What is a tunic of a Torah scholar? One under which his flesh is not visible. What is a cloak of a Torah scholar? One under which his tunic is not visible by a handbreadth.”

Which is to say: the Haredim are following Maimonides in this 🙂

With blessing,
Samson Zweiblinger

And moving from one matter to another, close to the same subject, I will bring two stories about some of the great rabbis of our generation.

About Rabbi Yosef Kapach, of blessed memory, they told that when sitting in judgment, he would wear a hat and coat even on the hottest summer days, based on Maimonides’ words that judges must sit in judgment wrapped in a cloak.

As for Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Kook’s insistence, of blessed memory, that the prayer leader wear long sleeves — I saw with my own eyes that after a lesson in his home, they were about to pray the evening service, and one of the students stepped forward to serve as prayer leader. Since the student’s shirt sleeves were short, Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda wanted to take off his own coat and put it on his student, the cantor.

In the end they found a sweater in the house, and the cantor wore that, but Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda had no problem putting his own rabbinic mantle on a second-year student for the sake of the honor of prayer.

Dear Shatz, what does the modesty of Torah scholars have to do with the modesty of Haredim? Are “Torah scholars” and “Haredim” synonymous terms…?

To Benjamin he said —

Didn’t Rabbi Yehudah expound at the end of chapter “These Found Objects” (Bava Metzia 33b): “Hear the word of the Lord, you who tremble at His word” — these are Torah scholars… 🙂

With the blessing of “and you shall be seen in your joy,” Sason Tzahal

Dear Shatz, on the contrary, from the above exposition there is proof for what I said: Torah scholars are called “those who tremble at His word,” implying that Haredim (“those who tremble,” in your language) are not called Torah scholars. (Did you try to confuse me with the double yod???)
The exposition clarifies who is called one who trembles, not who is called a Torah scholar — and that suffices.

Honor for prayer means a kid dressed up in a frock coat should look like a ridiculous clown standing at the lectern?

With God’s help, 27 Av 5780

To Va’adom — greetings,

The incident took place in Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda’s home on Ovadia Street 30 in the Geula neighborhood (Rabbi Avraham Shapira lived at Ovadia 3, and the Nazir, whose yahrzeit is tomorrow, 28 Av, lived on nearby Amos Street). In that neighborhood it is customary for nineteen-year-old boys (the age of the cantor) to wear a long coat. So there was nothing strange about it.

With blessing,
Shatz

By the way, Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda did not wear a “frock coat,” but a long coat in the Jerusalem style. His small tallit was also over the shirt (and under the coat), in the Jerusalem style.

People are judged by the norms of their place and society, and to me this looks like a parody of honor. Presumably in that neighborhood too you have fellows walking around in undershirts and flip-flops with their bellybuttons peeking out and then disappearing again. Self-importance expressed in mannerisms (rather than mainly in focused effort and ambition) seems to me a very harmful trait.

By contrast, a plasterer who comes to the afternoon prayer in stained work clothes and over them ties a gartel, as is his custom for every prayer, seems to me something יפה and reasonable that really affects his self-awareness.

Guys, you got a bit carried away,

Goralin, your question was a leading question, and you asked for sources for the laws of modesty and clarification of the Hasidic custom.
Maybe I’ll phrase it differently. These are the main points:

A. The sources are as above, and Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach’s clarification is that in matters of modesty there is no need for stringencies — what is brought in the Shulchan Arukh is enough!
B. There is such a thing as local custom — that is, modesty according to what people consider proper. (See Igrot Moshe as cited above.)
C. I emphasized that I wasn’t going to go on at length with sources. But the conclusion from what we’ve said is that according to the dry letter of the law there is no source for the Hasidic custom. And apparently it does not stem from the laws of modesty!!!
D. I am not justifying the Hasidic custom, but I can understand and accommodate people who feel that it is beneath their dignity, as sons of kings.
E. A wetsuit is an original idea. But apparently that would require a changing room and all the rest of it. So as not to go crazy, the Hasidim just go straight in with their clothes on.
F. Excessive stringency? Yes. Will they be judged for it in Heaven? Maybe. A desecration of God’s name? There are worse things.

Shatz,

Well done on the knockout answer: “Hear the word of the Lord, you who tremble at His word” — these are Torah scholars…

Strong!