The Pilpul Method, Rules of Discourse, and Silencing (Column 317)
Riding the momentum from the previous column, I’ll continue to deal a bit with flaws in public discourse. I wish to address the phenomenon of rules of discourse, many of which are associated with the principles of political correctness (though not all). But before that, I’ll precede with a discussion that also has independent importance.
Between Ponevezh and Slabodka
Before I begin, I’ll note that everything described here refers only to the illustrious city of Bnei Brak. The Jerusalemites (students of Hebron, Mir, and Ateret) need not be offended.
In the past, when I taught at a yeshiva in Yeruham and also at a kollel in Bar-Ilan, I would open almost every academic year with a comparative description of two important yeshivot: Ponevezh and Slabodka (full disclosure/denunciation: I am close to the first stream). I told my students that in my anthropological observations during my Bnei Brak period I found two main differences between them: (1) The number of Roshei Yeshiva and ramim (maggidei shiur) who emerge from Ponevezh is incomparably greater than those who come out of Slabodka. (2) The Ponevezh method of study is algorithmic, while the Slabodka method is more intuitive and less analytical. The point of this description was to show the connection between these two characteristics. But before continuing to that, I’ll illustrate what these things mean.
During my years in Bnei Brak, I would go during vacations and festivals to hear lectures given by various Roshei Yeshiva around the city. I greatly enjoyed those classes and accumulated not a little erudition and scholarly skill from them (that was the core of my breadth-learning). By the end of my stay in the holy city of Bnei Brak I reached a point where, when a lecture began, I could tell you how it would proceed and even how it would end: which sources would be brought, what the difficulty would be, which nafka minot (practical ramifications) would be offered, and what the conclusion would be. And I am really not exaggerating. Clearly I didn’t immediately know all of those details, and sometimes it wasn’t entirely precise. But this is a description very close to the truth. I’ll note that most of those Roshei Yeshiva were Ponevezh-types or close to it. By contrast, during my time in Kollel Chazon Ish (which is more identified with the Slabodka camp; actually it’s the other way around—the Slabodka people are identified with the Chazon Ish) I found the opposite phenomenon. It was impossible to predict where the lecture would go. The speaker would raise possibilities to this side and that, not building a systematic and highly analytical structure. I couldn’t connect to their non-systematic, non-orderly thinking there. I really saw them as a kind of balabatish (layman-ish).
The algorithmic method of the Ponevezh people was created by Rabbi Shmuel—by default, Rabbi Shmuel Rozovsky—who combined the teachings of his two mentors, R. Chaim of Brisk and R. Shimon Shkop, and fashioned the yeshiva “ra’ayid” (that is, the canonical form of analyzing the sugyot, sources, distinctions, and divisions one should say in every topic). At first this was an oral Torah that passed into the world through his students, and the written Torah was only the “notebooks” of R. Yosef Rozovsky (his brother, who taught at “Or Israel”). After some time, printed volumes of lectures (shiurim) by Roshei Yeshiva and ramim appeared; then this spread more widely and became established, turning into an algorithmic scholarly template. I have a telling story in this regard.
Throughout my studies in the “Netivot Olam” yeshiva, I learned with one rabbi, who himself was a devoted student of R. Shmuel Rozovsky (who had passed away less than a decade earlier). One year we studied tractate Sukkah, and in the middle of the year the first volume in the series “Shiurei Rabbi Shmuel” (the daily shiurim—as distinct from the later series “Chiddushei Rabbi Shmuel” which contains the general lectures) on tractate Sukkah was published. When we began to read the book, an embarrassing situation arose. The shiurim we had heard from our maggid shiur were almost identical to what appears in the book. It was clear that our ram was copying from Rabbi Shmuel’s shiurim without attribution. We hesitated whether to raise the issue with him, and in the end, as the senior student, I mustered up the courage, approached him, and asked him to explain. He was astonished to hear that the book had been published, and then he was overjoyed. He told me he had never learned tractate Sukkah with Rabbi Shmuel. It turned out that the shiurim he himself had constructed and delivered on the tractate were identical to Rabbi Shmuel’s shiurim on those sugyot, without any direct connection between them. He had independently produced Rabbi Shmuel’s shiurim without knowing them. He was happy to hear this, since this empirical test proved to him that he had succeeded in internalizing his teacher’s method (the algorithm). I’ll note that in my eyes, imitation is neither an aspiration nor the pinnacle of success—only a very important stage along the way (see below). But for him it was an unexpected confirmation of his scholarship and the success of his learning. I tell this so you’ll see what algorithmic learning means and how deeply it is embedded and sticks to the learner.
Let’s return now to my opening talks. After the description, I would tell my students that there is a connection between those two traits: because the Ponevezh method is algorithmic, it succeeds in producing far more competent scholars. Imitating Rabbi Shmuel requires much toil and no small measure of talent, but not everyone has to be Rabbi Shmuel to reach a high scholarly level. One must work hard and internalize the method, and then one emerges as a Rosh Yeshiva (a bit exaggerated, but that’s the general idea). It’s an assembly line—a factory for Roshei Yeshiva and scholars—shaped in the image and likeness of Rabbi Shmuel. By contrast, those who study in the Chazon Ish’s manner each follow his own path. Someone who is not himself a Chazon Ish won’t advance much and will continue to flounder in his gut-level arguments this way and that (that’s what I saw at the Chazon Ish kollel, and I fumed). Systematic, algorithmic study succeeds in getting the best out of people and bringing them to a scholarly level close to the model they imitate. By contrast, the Chazon Ish demanded that his students learn with straight reason in their own way, and that is not a tried-and-true recipe for growth in Torah unless you yourself are an exceptional talent (and toil with great dedication) like the Chazon Ish. Not for nothing is it common on my tongue that there are two types of Chazon-Ish-niks: those who do everything that appears in the Chazon Ish’s books (usually the relatively new residents of Rashbam Street toward the Lederman synagogue), and those who do what they themselves think (R. Gedaliah Nadel and his circle, the older residents of Rashbam Street), just as the Chazon Ish himself did.[1] Needless to say, in my eyes there is no doubt that the second type are the true Chazon-Ish-niks (I myself, of course, am a Chazon-Ish-nik of the second type in all 248 limbs and 365 sinews, even if this appalls those of the first type; let the ear hear and the soul not faint).
And now, to my standard, predictable conclusion: both sides are of course mistaken. The proper prescription for success, as I told my students, is to start in Ponevezh and finish in Slabodka. When you begin your learning, it’s worthwhile to cleave to a great person and adopt his method—try to internalize his algorithms, actually imitate and apply them again and again in every sugya—until you reach strong scholarly skill. But after that you must move from the solid base you acquired and build—on top of it (and not in its stead)—your own upper story. As the Hasidim say: you must be Zusha and not Rabbi Shmuel (even if you don’t possess gifts like those of Rabbi Shmuel). Ponevezh’s mistake is that they start correctly but don’t believe in constructing the next story. Slabodka’s mistake is that they begin straight from story B without building it on a firm, solid foundation. It seems to me this is a paradigm for every Torah innovation (and beyond). It’s not right to build it instead of the previous stories but on top of them. Tradition has importance, though you know well that in my view it is not the end of the road. Tradition is dynamic. It must not be paralyzing, but it is certainly not superfluous. Note well.
The Pilpul Method, Aristotle’s Logic, and Yeshiva-Style Learning
Why did I bring all this? Apart from the intrinsic importance of this preface, it comes to show the advantages of algorithmic thinking. There’s an interesting booklet by Dov Rappel called The Debate over Pilpul, where he describes the pilpul method that flourished in Poland and Lithuania in the late Middle Ages and early modern era (“the method of distinctions,” associated with R. Yaakov Pollak, R. Shalom Shakhna, R. Heshel, and their students). Among other things, he notes there that the exponents of this method had a well-defined toolbox containing a set of fixed distinctions and divisions with names familiar to all aficionados of the genre. When you encountered a certain baraita in the Talmud, your study partner or ram could say, “That’s a Regensburger,” and didn’t need to add a word. Everyone would understand there is a specific type of difficulty here (for example, that a precise inference from the reisha yields the opposite of the inference from the seifa). Likewise, at the stage of answers you could hear statements like: “That’s a Ravensburger,” “Augsburger,” “Nuremberger,” and the like. This is a shorthand way to say that the distinction or division is such-and-such, without the need to spell it out.
This is a fixed, algorithmic structure of difficulties and answers that appears in many places and in diverse sugyot irrespective of content. Pilpul learners were equipped with a set of such terms/principles, and that saved them from having to explain their intent to one another anew each time. But it’s not only a didactic aid. This algorithmic toolbox also helped them formulate questions and answers themselves. Now one no longer needs to think up the difficulty or the answer independently, but can scan the toolbox and choose the rule that fits the situation. Of course I don’t mean that everything was done algorithmically and no talent was required. That would be an exaggeration. But it certainly helps the average learner reach difficulties and answers he probably wouldn’t have reached on his own.
This recalls, in a way, Aristotle’s conceptualization of the laws of logic. There too Aristotle noticed that across different domains of thought—irrespective of content—there are fixed formal structures that recur, and they can be conceptualized and addressed in their own right. Thus he built his logical toolbox (the set of syllogisms) and placed it at everyone’s disposal. Now I can flip through that toolbox and employ it in any field I wish without having to (and without being able to) reinvent the wheel. So too with yeshiva (Brisker) learning. There as well there is a fairly defined toolbox of questions and answers—an array of principles of Talmudic (and general intellectual) analysis—that recur across sugyot and contexts: siman vs. siba, cheftza vs. gavra, the fulfillment of the mitzvah vs. the act of the mitzvah, two-tiered halakhic structures (shnei dinim), and more. Now every learner can draw on tools from this toolbox that stand ready for him. One need not possess R. Chaim’s genius to do so.
A boon with a barb: “seeing far” or “seeing right through”?
Such a toolbox gives the educated and skilled learner the ability to use its tools and reach achievements beyond his measure (that is, beyond what he’d reach alone). Thus a dwarf can sit on the shoulders of giants and utter bold and complex innovations on various sugyot—even ones he has never studied. Someone who has gone through the intensive press of Rabbi Shmuel Rozovsky can deliver a very good general shiur on any sugya in Shas without having seen it beforehand (tried and true). You can imagine the air of importance in 15th-century Poland when a learned man would wave off a questioner with, “Why, that is an Augsburger,” a mild scorn and condescension on his face (as if: who doesn’t know that?! How can there be an idiot who asks such a simple question?!). So too in a 20th-century Lithuanian yeshiva or in 21st-century Israel: “Fine, that’s two dinim,” or: “This is a cheftza matter and that is a gavra matter.”
But there’s a barb here. People lacking real ability can appear to be great intellectuals by quoting and using various principles and terms. That would still be tolerable, since they are indeed saying something correct (even if they didn’t invent it). Yet it also happens that they employ these learned rules in an entirely mechanical way that doesn’t fit the circumstances. Sometimes the use of these rules elicits a chuckle from anyone who understands the matter. But the perplexed student sits opposite them, ashamed, admiring the know-it-all who brandishes the toolbox and moves within it as if at home. Such people may be dwarfs sitting on giants—but not always on their shoulders; sometimes on their hips. So they don’t necessarily “see far,” but sometimes rather “see right through” (i.e., transparently). Below we’ll see two types of using rules of discourse: one I’ll call “seeing far” (proper use) and the other “seeing right through” (demagogic misuse, or silencing).
Behold, after the preliminaries we’ve reached our topic.
Similar phenomena in the virtual world
In the intellectual world generally, there’s value to general education and familiarity with different schools and modes of thought. There too, familiarity with a broad toolbox can upgrade your ability to understand, argue, and innovate in various fields—even beyond your natural talent. I don’t say this as a criticism but as praise. Part of people’s talent is learning from others and drawing on what’s already known (not reinventing everything from scratch). Thus I’ve often noted that intellectuals tend to cite thinkers and approaches instead of making arguments. When you put forward a claim, they tell you: “That’s Humean” or “That’s Kantian,” and that’s it. No need to elaborate what follows from its being Humean; every educated person is supposed to know.
But as we saw above, here too there are people who use these toolboxes mechanically and incorrectly, all without letting it disturb the air of importance and scorn on their faces as they wave the known rule (which the idiot questioner didn’t know). Sometimes they label a claim “Humean” and don’t bother to explain why being Humean is bad. Sometimes Humeanism really is bad; yet it’s not even true that the claim in question is Humean. The problem with labels and toolboxes is the flip side of their benefit: the mechanical nature saves the need for reasoning (“seeing far”), but that very thing can lead to statements without basis—imprecise and unchecked (“seeing right through”).
We must understand that using such toolboxes presupposes a community aware of them and within which they can be jointly used. Go tell a contemporary Lithuanian learner that “this is an Augsburger.” He’ll open a pair of calf eyes and won’t understand what you’re saying. These toolboxes are the product of a defined community that understands and agrees on them. In the virtual world, communities constantly arise around worldviews and interests irrespective of geography, and thus a path opens for the emergence of almost universal toolboxes. The online community of web surfers or TV viewers are communities like any other, and it’s no wonder that relevant toolboxes develop there as well. It’s also no wonder you’ll find there quite a few instances of “seeing right through,” i.e., quoting a rule mechanically and inaptly just to shut someone up. Before coming to the toolbox at issue in our discussion, I’ll briefly bring several examples of rules of discourse to clarify the phenomenon in additional contexts.
God of the Gaps
The term God of the Gaps didn’t arise in the virtual age. It was already in use by the preacher Henry Drummond in the 19th century. But in my view it’s actually an example of a useful and correct rule of discourse. Believers tend to base belief in God on gaps in scientific knowledge. If science doesn’t know how to explain X, then there’s probably a God (He is the one doing it although it doesn’t accord with scientific laws). Against this, atheists raise the claim that one should not base belief in God on a gap in scientific knowledge. That’s “God of the Gaps.”
This phrase is nearly a mantra. The moment you hear an argument for God’s existence based on a scientific gap or lacuna, the atheist will immediately tell you this is God of the Gaps, and with that he ends the discussion at once. Seemingly this is silencing, since many believers really do think scientific lacunae prove God’s existence. And yet, in my view this is actually a good example of a rule of discourse, because such an argument is indeed problematic. Scientific knowledge is by nature cumulative. Much of what we know today wasn’t known a hundred years ago, and so on backward. Was God more existent a hundred years ago? What will happen if at some point we have complete scientific knowledge—will there then be no room for belief in God? It’s not plausible to base an argument about God’s existence on scientific knowledge at any given time, since it is a changing matter (a passing blemish).
The principle that God of the Gaps is not a legitimate argument is a very useful one for discourse. There’s no point in having to explain anew against each such argument why this type of argument is incorrect. That’s exactly why we have a toolbox and concepts, and it’s enough to pull from the toolbox the principle that this is a God of the Gaps argument—preferably with initials (GOG, the atheists’ Augsburger)—to end the discussion. It is therefore reasonable that our toolbox should include this rule.
But still, the use of this rule against arguments from the complexity of the world is not always correct. In my book God Plays Dice I explained that this rule is relevant to evidences within the laws. A natural phenomenon that has no scientific explanation (under the existing laws) is not evidence of God’s existence. But the argument from outside the laws (what I called “the argument from the laws”) is not exposed to an attack via GOG. When I base God’s existence on the structure of the laws of nature themselves (and not on an unexplained phenomenon within them), the God of the Gaps claim is irrelevant. The reason is that this scientific “gap” will probably never be filled. It is very likely that we will never succeed in explaining all the laws of nature without resorting to other laws of nature (were we to succeed, we would discover that the laws of nature are definitions or analytic-logical rules rather than synthetic laws of nature). This is an example of a failed use of a correct rule of discourse (“seeing right through” instead of “seeing far”). In this case, using GOG stems from error—or from a desire to silence in order to sidestep engaging the argument itself.
Godwin’s Law
Another example of a rule of discourse—this time from the virtual age—is Godwin’s Law. Mike Godwin formulated this rule in 1990, and it says roughly this: the longer an online discussion continues, the greater the likelihood that we’ll reach an example or analogy from Nazism, and in the end it approaches 1 (certainty). In that formulation, the “law” is descriptive, not prescriptive. In many discussions one side uses extreme examples from Nazism, since that seems an easy and powerful solution that can convince about almost anything.
Behind this rule stands the assumption that the extremity of a Nazi example usually renders it irrelevant to more normal situations. Beyond that, some understand that the point of raising the example is to hurt the other side (by likening his position to Nazism), or that it leverages negative feelings toward Nazism to persuade instead of arguments on the merits. And thus the descriptive law became a rule of discourse. Today, in various online precincts, the accepted rule (and that’s what’s called Godwin’s Law) is: the party to a discussion who reaches an example or analogy from Nazism has lost the debate. Many end the discussion at that point (like Zehava Galon and rape in the previous column).
This is, of course, an obviously faulty rule of discourse. Examples by nature tend toward extremes. When you want to sharpen a concept, you illustrate it in an extreme case where agreement is easier to reach. There is therefore nothing wrong with bringing a parallel or example from Nazism (or from a case of rape) to sharpen some principle or idea—provided the analogy is relevant. For instance, if a person claims that every person should be judged by his own system (and not by an objective yardstick), then it is indeed relevant to ask whether he would say that about the Nazis as well. By the way, he shouldn’t be intimidated by the example; he can certainly answer yes. He can also answer that the Nazis are extreme and he’s speaking only about normal cases (for my part I don’t see the logic there, but it’s only an example). Such a discussion is entirely relevant, and the Nazi example is very good. Anyone who tries to end the discussion by wielding Godwin’s Law as a rule of discourse simply tries to silence the other side rather than engage his arguments. Again, recall Zehava Galon. This is a common escape method for those whose arguments run out when faced with the crushing example against them. In that case he simply takes offense and declares that resorting to Nazis ends the discussion, or violates the rules of political correctness.
I would therefore classify Godwin’s Law as a failed rule of discourse, in contrast to GOG (God of the Gaps). That rule is generally irrelevant and is therefore intended to silence when substantive arguments have run out. It’s the weapon of the weak—or the losers.
The postmodern gagging toolbox
In postmodern discourse (i.e., the moving of lips), there are many faulty rules of discourse whose main point is to look wise and enlightened while at the same time shutting the mouth of your interlocutor without resorting to arguments (Heaven forfend). Concepts and labels like exclusion, condescension, narrative, discourse, marginalized groups, research findings, or “what scholars say” (cf. “homosexuality is not a disease”), in many cases are not substantive arguments but tools for silencing the other side. Instead of arguing, they take offense and accuse you of exclusion, religious coercion, paternalism, and so on. Just to sharpen: the accusation of pragmatism, for example, is in my view a correct and relevant rule of discourse. An argument that bases a claim on its utility or its good outcomes is generally a poor philosophical argument, so raising the label “pragmatism” against it to end the debate is entirely substantive. There are many more rules of discourse; I’ll illustrate one more that was born not long ago and is less known: whataboutism.
Whataboutism
Whataboutism is a rule of discourse that disqualifies comparisons. Usually they are made to point out hypocrisy or inconsistency in the claimant (and so it’s part of the family of fallacies that address the person—ad hominem). Suppose Reuven accuses Shimon of doing or thinking X, and Shimon answers that he (Reuven) does that himself. Seemingly this is not a substantive argument, since even if Reuven acts or thinks that way, it doesn’t mean X is an acceptable thought or action; therefore it doesn’t defend Shimon. It’s an irrelevant move meant to shut the critic up when you have no substantive defense. For example: Reuven accuses Shimon of being stingy, and Shimon replies that Reuven himself is stingy. Does that mean Shimon isn’t stingy? Seemingly this is a non-substantive argument that merely silences. In such a case Reuven should answer: that’s whataboutism—i.e., you raised the irrelevant maneuver of “what about you?!”
But of course there are situations in which such a move can be justified. For instance, if one wants to show that this is a reasonable and normative phenomenon found in many people and illustrates it through Reuven himself (who also behaves that way). Alternatively, sometimes the discussion is about the phenomenon itself. For example, people on the Left accuse people on the Right of violent behavior. The claim that the Left is also violent is not germane. But if a person on the Left claims that the Right is more violent than the Left, then it is indeed reasonable to raise examples of violence from the Left, and that would be highly relevant. If the person on the Left replies that this is whataboutism, that would be an unfair use of the rule—meant to silence instead of engage. In most cases, the use of this rule of discourse is “seeing right through,” not “seeing far.”
It is interesting to note that there are expressions of this rule in the legal and halakhic realms. The legal rule that rejects selective enforcement is also apparently related to whataboutism. The legal system doesn’t see it as legitimate to go after person A but not person B who does the same thing (“what about him?!”). Of course, this doesn’t prove that A is fine (listening, Bibi?), but as a legal rule it has logic because it prevents persecution for ulterior motives. Therefore this legal rule says nothing about the substantive status of this type of move as a rule of discourse.
And in the halakhic context, the Sages advise us, “Adorn yourself first and afterward adorn others” (Bava Batra 60b), and seemingly they come to prevent a defense that relies on whataboutism. If you cleanse yourself of the flaw in which you accuse your fellow, he won’t be able to slip away with the claim that you’re the same (if you adorn yourself first, he can’t retort: adorn yourself first!). But note that there’s no statement here that such a defensive claim is legitimate—only an indication that in practice, people have a (bad) tendency to use it. When you come to rebuke someone, you should take into account that people defend themselves with evasive, silencing moves like “adorn yourself first,” and therefore prepare accordingly. That doesn’t mean that when someone attacks me for speaking slander, the argument that he does it too is a legitimate defense. Definitely not (except in the senses I sketched above).
In this critique of whataboutism, Naveh Dromi (called, not coincidentally, the “female Gadi Taub”) raises another point. When Shimon answers Reuven’s critique with “and what about you?!” (what about you?!), and Reuven dismisses it as whataboutism, then even if Reuven’s claim is relevant (in the cases I described above), he still hasn’t explained why there truly is a difference. The example she brings is that when the Left defends the Supreme Court’s acting differently toward settlers and toward other populations by claiming “that’s whataboutism,” it may be right. One can argue that settlers who sit on private land should be evacuated—irrespective of what is done with others (and one can debate that too; not our topic here). But at the same time, note that there is still no explanation of why the Court really acts that way.
Dromi also notes that the accusation of whataboutism usually rises from the Left toward the Right, which brings us back to PC culture and postmodernism.
Back to PC
Why is a rule of discourse like whataboutism used mainly on the Left side of the political-ideological map? One can more generally wonder why this whole discussion is connected to PC at all. After all, rules of discourse—both proper and improper—existed long beforehand, and clearly they are used by all political and ideological sides. Indeed, as I’ve already written, the connection is not direct and not always correct, but still, at least de facto, there appears to be a connection. You can see it in the fact that within PC there are many such silencing rules of discourse—far more than before. Not for nothing does Dromi note that this rule is mainly used by people on the Left.
I think the explanation is that PC culture focuses on words instead of facts (on pointing rather than pointing-to), and tends to settle arguments through words and labels instead of ideas and arguments. In this sense, the phenomenon of rules of discourse whose purpose is silencing—under the guise of enlightenment and intellectualism—is certainly part of this. These are code names for concepts or claims that are not done or can’t be said. Why? Usually simply because I don’t have a good answer to them (cf. “Zehava Galon and Libeskind” from the previous column). But in postmodern terms, I don’t need an answer—since there is no truth and no right or wrong. What matters is what may or may not be said: the rules of the narrative.
A rule of discourse that arises in order to silence is a tool that uses terminological tags instead of arguments, and is therefore expected within a discourse that doesn’t believe in arguments and claims. In this sense there is indeed a phenomenon that belongs to the PC and postmodern age, though of course it existed earlier as well. Godwin’s Law is not tied to PC nor to the internet. That rule is relevant outside the net as well, and yet it’s no accident that it arose in the internet age and is mainly used in PC culture. The same goes for whataboutism. No doubt such moves are as old as human debate. And yet the rule was conceptualized and entered common use in the PC age. This set of rules constitutes a toolbox for the average PC adherent and stands at his disposal whenever he has no substantive answer. In such a case he has nothing left but to pull one of the rules and shut his interlocutor up. Anyone familiar with the genre knows this happens all the time, and these rules are minted at a pace that is very hard to keep up with (“the bastards changed the rules and forgot to tell me”—see the previous column).
A look at logical fallacies
I mentioned that silencing rules were used in the past as well and that they are certainly not the sole province of the postmodern Left. The labels “heretic” or “apostate” in religious discourse serve the same purpose (see column 74). Silencing rules appear in every group framework that wants to protect positions that are hard to defend. In this context, it is fitting to note that many of the fallacies of the “ad _” type that appear at the beginning of every logic book—unrelated to the internet or to postmodernism or PC—are also, in some sense, silencing rules. I won’t go into detail here about these fallacies, but I’ll try to illustrate and briefly explain my claim.
About thirty years ago a friend, his friend, and I planned to write a book on rhetoric and faulty reasoning. We began working on fallacies and quickly discovered that most of them are not fallacies at all. Take, for example, the ad hominem fallacy (attacking the person) and in particular appeals to authority, which are a special case of ad hominem. For instance: Reuven says that even Einstein believed in God; therefore it’s reasonable to believe in Him. In logic this is treated as the fallacy of appealing to authority. Einstein has no special authority on belief in God. But it’s important to remember that Einstein was by all accounts a wise man with superb abstract thinking. He excelled in drawing abstract conclusions from reality and possessed an extraordinary metaphysical intuition (e.g., regarding space and time). It is therefore quite reasonable to give some weight to his opinion on such a topic. Suddenly we realized it is simply not right to see such an argument as a fallacy. Of course, Einstein need not be right; but it is an argument with some weight. And so we saw with many other “fallacies” as well (and among other reasons, we eventually abandoned the book).
One must understand that logic books define every argument whose conclusion does not necessarily follow from its premises as a fallacy. But in everyday discourse, such a thing is not necessarily a fallacy. In life we use analogies, inductions, and other “soft” arguments (whose conclusions are not necessary but plausible). In these cases, the conclusion indeed doesn’t follow necessarily, but there’s no reason to dismiss it so long as it is plausible—or at least carries some weight. Our sense then was that, in many cases, people point to these fallacies even in ordinary discourse (not in a strict logical context), and then it appears to be done merely to silence. When someone says that Einstein believed in God—or conversely, someone claims that most people with high academic education don’t believe in God—the targets of these claims immediately dismiss them as appeals to authority. But these are claims that deserve consideration (not necessarily true, of course; there can be other reasons). It’s not right to reject them out of hand and declare them automatically to be a fallacy.
Remember (I elaborated on this in my books, especially Two Carts and Truth and Not Stable) that within postmodern discourse, a non-necessary argument is an illegitimate one. If it has premises (as every argument does), or if one can simply disagree with it, that itself is treated as a counter-argument that shuts the door on it. Therefore these folks mainly play with words and definitions without arguing anything. After all, there are no arguments without premises, and there are no claims one cannot dispute (perhaps except for that claim itself).
Undoubtedly among these are genuine fallacies as well—such as appeals to emotion or condemnation of a view (instead of raising arguments against it). For example: to say about a claim in physics that “this is Jewish physics,” or to say about some fact or datum that “this is racism,” and so forth—those are fallacies par excellence, not only in logic. The use of them cannot be considered silencing but rather a substantive argument. That’s the “seeing far” use of fallacies. Not every use of fallacies as rules of discourse is “seeing right through.”
PC itself as a rule of discourse
In light of what I’ve described, it’s easy to see that classifying some claim as PC is itself a kind of silencing rule. Once upon a time, when you raised a politically incorrect claim, some would flash the red card at you: that claim is politically incorrect. Today this is almost gone (as far as I know), and the wheel has turned. Now the term “PC” has become a red card against the PC gang itself (as we said in the previous column: measure for measure). When someone raises a non-substantive claim, he’s accused of being PC and the discussion ends. That is, referring to a given claim as PC itself becomes a silencing rule.
In my opinion this rule of discourse is one of those that are indeed correct at base. That is, PC claims truly are non-substantive and therefore fail, and it’s fitting to raise that as an argument against them. That’s a “seeing far” use of a rule of discourse. Of course, sometimes such claims can be raised as a warning about discourtesy or hurting people. In such a case that is at least legitimate (even if not necessarily admissible), and then it’s not right to dismiss it by saying it’s PC.
But like all the rules we’ve seen, this one also has imprecise uses (“seeing right through”). One example, in my view, appears in Chayuta’s comments among the first responses after the previous column (see my reply to her words here). She argued that there is some place for certain PC rules because they advance positive matters and values (the status of women and Black people), and beyond that she claimed there is room for demands about politeness and avoiding hurting people. She added that only when there is extreme and ridiculous use of PC rules is there room for my critique of the genre. In my comments there I answered that the demand to speak and behave politely is not worthy of being called PC. Rules of etiquette existed beforehand, and it’s reasonable to demand that a person behave politely toward others (by the way, that of course doesn’t mean he’s wrong). That’s not an invention of PC adherents. Codes of politeness become PC only where they are extreme and ridiculous. Therefore the rejection of PC as such is indeed in place.
The whole point in the war against PC is that people use demands for polite conduct in unreasonable, absurd, and ridiculous ways. They manufacture offense out of nothing, for no reason, or declare certain arguments illegitimate (the two types of PC described at the beginning of the previous column) and then demand that I take them into account—thus trying to shut me up. In short: when they demand that I not tell a person to his face that he’s fat and ugly—that’s not a PC rule. That’s an elementary demand of politeness (even if it’s true that he’s fat and ugly. And again: even where the use is justified, the demand for politeness says nothing about the substance). When they demand that people not discriminate against Black people—that’s an elementary demand. But when they demand that we not present data showing that Black people/women/LGBTQ people are disadvantaged or culpable in some area—even when the matter is based on facts and sound reasoning—there, and only there, politeness turns into PC; and as such it should be rejected out of hand. That is a rule of silencing, not a rule of politeness. When they demand that one not mention a case of rape or compare to it—even where the comparison is warranted—that is a PC rule of shutting mouths. Are you listening, Zehava?
[1] By the way, for the adept: one can further divide the second type into two subtypes—those who do what they themselves think because the Chazon Ish said to do so, and those who do so because they understand that this is what one should do, exactly as the Chazon Ish understood.
Discussion
This isn’t the kind of thing that can be demonstrated briefly. Any learner immediately sees the difference between how the Chazon Ish learns and how R. Chaim learns. As is well known, that is the whole point of the Chazon Ish’s notes on R. Chaim’s novellae. Almost every passage there is an example of this.
With God’s help, 9 Tammuz 5780
If Ponevezh’s analytical method produced roshei yeshiva and ramim, then presumably Slobodka’s intuitive method produces dayanim and halakhic authorities who rule on practical law, for the halakhic discourse of the commentators on the Shulchan Arukh and the authors of responsa literature throughout the generations is more “Slobodka” than “Ponevezh.”
I do not know what the situation is in the Bnei Brak Slobodka, but the Jerusalem Slobodka, Hebron Yeshiva, is a training ground for a considerable portion of the leading halakhic decisors of our generation—city rabbis and dayanim.
Rav Kook as well preferred the Netziv’s mode of learning, which leads to “drawing the discussion to a halakhic conclusion,” over Rabbi Chaim of Brisk’s analytical method, and for that reason did not want to invite Rabbi Shimon Shkop to serve as rosh yeshiva at Merkaz HaRav. In later years, Rabbi Shimon Shkop’s method of learning became dominant at Merkaz HaRav with the appointment of Rabbi Mordechai Sternberg as the senior shiur’s ram.
Regards, Shatz
Back when the new wing at Merkaz HaRav was built, funded by Morris Wohl of London, and a sign was put up reading “Yad Wohl,” people joked that Merkaz HaRav was only a “hand” of Volozhin, so that’s why it was only “Wohl” 🙂
There are no extant shiurim by R. Shmuel on Sukkah.
If you find such a thing, I’ll crow like a rooster for an entire day.
If only there were—but there aren’t.
Thank you. In any case, I’d still be glad for a good example (I was involved in lomdus only in my youth). Or at least for a more specific reference. Thanks.
Indeed. Very strange.
It was of course a very long time ago, so I no longer have a definitive memory. I see two possibilities: either it was a different tractate and I mistakenly thought it was Sukkah, or this is in the red stencil edition (if that includes Sukkah; I don’t have it on hand).
Jerusalem Slobodka (Hebron) is a yeshiva in a more Ponevezh-style mode. I’m talking about Beit Yosef Slobodka—Bnei Brak.
In your demonstration of whataboutism, I think you meant that Reuven is accused by Shimon of X. Otherwise, later on in your remarks it isn’t clear what is happening.
People tell stories about Rabbi Rozovsky’s shiurim on tractate Sukkah, but there is no such thing. From this it is proven that all rabbinic stories are fabricated. Hanging the story on “Bnei Brak” is a clear recycling of a Talmudic myth onto which they dressed up the myths about the yeshivot in Ponevezh and Slobodka. I checked all the maps of Lithuania, and there is no city called “Slobodka.” It is all fiction and invention.
In general, it has already been proven in the journal “Speak Lies — A Journal for the Study of Southwest Asia in the 20th–21st Century” (issue 1, Thermidor 2313), that a Jewish state did not exist in Palestine at that time. “Bnei Brak” was a mythological settlement that was attached to the Palestinian metropolitan city of Hiriya. There Palestinian groups fought against the meager Zionist entity. The more moderate ones were called “haters,” while the more militant ones were called “terrorists.”
Regards, Dr. Shimtzon Levinon, the Yigal Ben-Nun Institute for Myth-Busting
“Why, really, is a discourse style like whataboutism used mainly by the left side of the political-ideological map?”
That’s what I thought too until a few days ago, when I listened to several of Erel Segal’s and Yinon Magal’s programs on Radio 103. Over several good hours they raised almost no argument that wasn’t “whataboutism.”
“Correct yourself first” was not meant to prevent defending oneself against whatabout claims. It is simply common sense (yes, it is also unclear why Hazal expounded it—it is derived from “Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together.” That is probably something parallel to “You shall not murder”). Presumably this is a sin and a demand that is hard to overcome and live up to, so there is no point in making demands of others so long as you yourself do not meet them.
With God’s help, 9 Tammuz 5680
To Dr. Shimtzon Levinon—greetings
The reason you did not find the city of Slobodka on a map of Lithuania is that “Slobodka” is not a city but a suburb of the city of Kovno (in Lithuanian: Kaunas). The suburb’s name has also changed, and today it is called Vilijampolė.
Regards, Dr. Mikaela Gorlin, Department of Physics, Stockholm University
A quintessentially Michaellabrahamian post. I hope you can see the expression on my face 😉
Two comments not about the substance of the column, but only regarding its opening:
Once I did some checking on the Novardok and Slobodka yeshivot and their students—
Novardok students grew up to become rabbis and preachers (like R. Yaakov Galinsky)
Slobodka students grew up to become roshei yeshiva
That sounds like a difference in approach (the greatness of man, etc.)
Regarding the pilpul method—
As emerges from the writings of the Shelah and his contemporaries, the objection to the pilpul method was precisely because of this point: genuine Torah study had been replaced by the use of an algorithm.
Dr. Mikaela Gorlin from the Department of Physics at Stockholm University is a real person. But she has no connection to the comment above, which any reader will recognize was written by the undersigned.
Regards, Shatz
Correction to the comment “There was nothing…” paragraph 2, line 3
…to the Palestinian metropolitan city…
Making sure that at a study day there will also be a woman lecturer (or a Black one)—is that courtesy or PC?
I assume you mean the opposite (though your deeds are welcome). They argued that the left does all sorts of things too—that is, they engaged in whataboutism, and did not argue that others are whataboutists.
That certainly isn’t PC unless they take an unworthy lecturer. I already wrote in a talkback on the previous column that I am not opposed to affirmative action. In my view it has no connection to PC.
Corrected. Hope it’s okay now.
Regarding “adorn yourself first and then adorn others”: at the beginning of the chapter Kohen Gadol, concerning the high priest being judged and judging others, there is a reference to the rule as binding and not merely as a recommendation.
And therefore?
Rabbi Michi, are you sure you were familiar with Slobodka and Ponevezh?
As I recall, there has always been a dramatic difference in the quality of the population.
And indeed, in Slobodka there were geniuses and various oddballs, because the yeshiva was relatively heterogeneous.
And there were several learning styles there, from Abramsky and onward to Gnihovsky and a bit more—styles that are the very opposite of the intuitive one, rather halakhic logic in pre-yeshivish terms.
Maybe you were impressed by a few specific shiurim/writings.
The absence of the intuitive level in Ponevezh is completely accurate, and it should be noted that this is (more or less) because of the combination with R. Shmuel, since R. Shimon was indeed like that, at least to some extent.
There is much to elaborate on, but it is worth seeing it correctly.
The rabbi wrote as follows: “There is nothing wrong with bringing a parallel or an example from Nazism (or from a situation of rape) in order to sharpen some principle or idea.”
Why use an offensive example (it’s not for nothing that Godwin’s law exists) in order to sharpen an idea? It is preferable to find non-offensive examples, and if there aren’t any—does the sharpening gained by an example like the Holocaust justify the offense?!
With God’s help, 10 Tammuz 5780
In several places we see that adherence to “rules of discourse” is one of the signs of a person’s fitness to be a teacher of halakhah. In the Gemara at the beginning of Pesachim, Rabbi Yohanan said of a student who was careful to use clean language: “I am assured that he will issue halakhic rulings in Israel.” And in Sanhedrin it is explained that one needs authorization to rule so that he can be checked whether he speaks clearly and does not cause mistakes in understanding, like that person who spoke about “egg water,” and the audience erred and thought he was speaking about “marsh water.”
Care with clean and clear style helps a person’s words to be understood and accepted. But more than that, one who tries to speak in a clean and clear manner also improves his own ability to think. Precision in speech, in exactly defining things, creates the need to think clearly. As they said, a deficiency in definition is a deficiency in understanding.
Likewise, care for sensitive and respectful discourse leads the speaker to develop sensitivity to the other person’s opinion. And the effort “to get to the bottom of his mind,” even when his interlocutor’s words seem on the surface bizarre and unfounded, enables a person to listen also to other opinions and to learn from them points he would not have reached on his own.
Demanding that others observe “rules of discourse” can turn into “muzzling,” but when a person uses the “rules of discourse” mainly to examine himself, it is a constructive discipline that develops thought.
Regards, Shatz
However, in the sugya in Pesachim it seems that clean language is not always preferable. In describing the animals that came to the ark, the Torah used clean language: “that is not pure.” But when stating the prohibition, the Torah formulates it in a blunt manner and says explicitly: “the impure one,” in order to clarify the severity of the prohibition. Much intellectual effort must be invested in knowing when gentleness is appropriate and when firmness is preferable.
Regards, Shatz
Line 1
…it seems that clean language is not always preferable…
Line 3
…and says explicitly “the impure one” in order to clarify…
Now it’s good.
I was familiar with many products of Slobodka and also heard some of several of the roshei yeshiva there.
Oh, I read these analyses of yeshivot and methods of learning and personalities with great eagerness.
The whole discourse is one big fallacy. And there is logic in PC.
Human beings talk without knowing why, and without knowing what their true foundational assumptions are—that is, their real axioms.
So every person invents for himself over the course of his life axioms that seem coherent with what he thinks. But that is not a real axiom; it is only for the sake of convenience.
Therefore there is logic in the approach that says: why should I get entangled with arguments and inferences when the axioms themselves are arbitrary?
Let’s turn everything into an axiom—from the outset. Then anyone who makes a claim from which something follows that contradicts the axiom is clearly speaking nonsense and should be silenced.
Interesting. Can you give an example of an axiom invented for convenience that is not the “true foundational assumption”?
In short:
The proper discourse is the peace-y discourse that seeks peace and mutual understanding between the different opinions. It is the discourse aware that each of the opinions represents only a piece, a certain fragment of the complete truth, and that the purpose of argument is to arrive at full exposure of the valid considerations present in all the opinions, and thus to create the full and balanced picture. Seeking peace leads to the revelation of the deep truth in all its completeness.
.
Regards, Shatz
When you think about it, the phrase “Correct yourself first and then correct others” itself becomes one of the most whataboutist arguments there is.
An example of a conversation:
– Why do you smoke? It’s unhealthy…
– First correct yourself and then correct others.
Indeed. And that is what I wrote—that this is not a substantive counterargument, but rather advice to the person himself.
With God’s help, eve of the holy Sabbath, “I cannot go beyond the word of the Lord my God” 5780
When a person says that smoking is dangerous, but he himself smokes, there is ostensibly evidence that he does not really believe the argument he is making, and from this ostensibly evidence that the argument is unfounded. The claimant can reply that he is addicted and unable to stop smoking despite the fact that the danger is clear to him, but the fact that there is an answer does not mean that the question is not a valid question.
And so one may say that when it says that Israel’s sin with Baal Peor came “through the matter of Balaam,” this can be interpreted to mean that Balaam’s words were not said explicitly but only by implication. If the prophet who proclaims his full loyalty to the word of God is prepared to try again and again to “reshape” the will of his God, then the Midianites and Moabites could learn that despite his decisive words, “God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent,” there is apparently still something to discuss…
With the blessing “Dear Balak, dirbalak,” Shatz
From our enemies’ repeated attempts, again and again, to harm us—such that even though “it didn’t work for them,” they keep trying over and over to achieve their goal—we should learn, by the principle that the measure of good is greater, how much we must strive and exert ourselves in the service of God: that even when “it doesn’t go for us,” and even if we fail again and again, we should learn “sticking to the mission” from Balaam and Balak, who did not despair, and even if they did not succeed here, they went back and tried there; and if they did not succeed by this route, they returned and tried in another direction. “From my enemies You make me wiser than my foes, for Your commandments are ever with me.”
With blessings for a very good Sabbath, Shatz
And herein lies the problem (with the possessors of this “transparent vision”): some friends of mine and I once defined a concept. Let us say that the spectrum of wisdom runs from 1 to 10. Every person is located somewhere on that scale. (The wiser a person is, the more he ranges between 5 and 10; whereas the more foolish he is, the more he ranges between 5 and 1.) However, there are certain people in the world who are the most dangerous breed! They are people who in essence are a 3 (!) but… (and here comes a very big “but”) they are disguised as a 7 (?!??????)—as enlightened people who use intelligent language and questions [seemingly, for they do not really understand what they are talking about] that are formulated tastefully. And this is a great danger to Jews…
They move among us… they argue with us sometimes… (When you argue with a donkey who is below 5, you do not feel the need to answer him. But this dog talks to you in the manner of a 7, so it is hard for you to treat him as a 3 [his original material].) They wear us down every time, dragging us into a discussion where it very quickly becomes clear that they do not understand its depth at all (even though they asked a question [completely by accident—they prophesied without knowing what they prophesied…] that leads to this deep argument). And their definition is: 3 dressed up as 7!
It is important to notice these people and keep away from arguments with them. You will not find great depth there. (The only advantage is the opportunity to work on one’s character traits—and that really is a great merit, along the lines of: When will a mitzvah like this come my way so that I may fulfill it? And now that it has come my way, shall I not fulfill it?!).
Forgive the venting; this was for me… (The rabbi touched
here on several points that stirred associations in me [they see “transparent” and are disguised as people who see “far”]).
And all that remains for me is to conclude with the crushing quotation: “Never argue with fools—they will drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience.”
Good morning 🙂
Rabbi Michi, although psychotherapy is not your field, and it even seems that you are somewhat put off by it, I have to note that at least a third of the respondents on the site benefit from your services—at minimum as a way to vent various troubles.
The amount of nerves, frustration, and emotional talk that gets poured out is disproportionate.
I propose, almost seriously, that everyone should write at the beginning of the message: “responding from the gut,” “responding from unresolved frustration,” “I calmed down, thought carefully, and am responding.”
To Yehoshua—greetings
I calmed down, thought carefully, and I am responding.
Regards, responding from the gut
Oops! I climbed onto the keyboard while chasing the mouse, and accidentally pressed “reply”…
Regards, Snora
The commenter does not need to write this at the beginning of the message… you can see it by yourself. (And those who don’t see it? Better not to speak of them; concerning such people our sages said that one does not expound the Account of Creation.)
And by the way, when there is a heated topic (for example, the issue of discourse and PC, etc.) that affects all of us emotionally, and the rabbi speaks about it fluently, it is quite logical that there will be emotional responses… (you just need there to be some actual intellect behind them, and then it is reasonable).
Regards, Daniel 🙂
The distinction between an appropriate response and an inappropriate response is clear.
Whoever says what I want to hear—behold, he is speaking logically and from the head, and his attacks and barbs are an expression of honesty, bluntness, and intellectual integrity.
By contrast, whoever says things that I do not like—his words are emotional, spoken without thought, and even if they are said gently and respectfully, they express slippery evasiveness, lack of intellectual honesty, arrogance, condescension, apologetics, etc. etc. 🙂
Regards, All for Me, Institute of Talkbackology, University of Yerevan
Relatively speaking, the situation on this site is excellent compared to the horror one encounters online. Emotions flare up from time to time, but by and large the commenters here are serious and knowledgeable people who have much to say and contribute to the discussions. The “master of the site” as well stands watch and deletes things when they begin to go too far off the rails. One can relax 🙂
Regards, Calm Be Upon You
Political correctness is not the same as manners.
Chayota, you are also invited to speak with Rabbi Navon, who has researched the topic extensively.
An amusing video about political correctness
https://youtu.be/Zh3Yz3PiXZw
Indeed, very nice. There is quite a bit to analyze in it, because one can see the justice in both the child’s words and those of his parents (it is all a matter of how one defines addition). Beyond that, one can also analyze the punchline (is the result really 22,000?).
The teacher was wrong even at the end, when she almost caught on to the logic in the child’s words, because 2000 plus 2000, when you put the numbers next to each other, are: 20,002,000 dollars 🙂
Regards, Kalkulitally Correct
Indeed. That is what I meant. Although even there one can analyze further, because you can treat thousands as though they were units, so I have 2 + 2 thousands (like 2 + 2 pencils).
You seem old and outdated like the teacher. She too tried to impose her primitive views by means of adding pencils. Numbers are not pencils 🙂
Regards, Kalkulitically Correct
In Frege’s strange definition (which I never understood/accepted), numbers are roughly pencils.
See briefly here:
https://www.bhol.co.il/Forums/topic.asp?topic_id=2879566&whichpage=4#R_6
According to this, every answer is a response to everything, because it is all a matter of how words are defined. Analyzing the punchline does not detract from it—if the result is “really” 22,000 according to the child’s words, great. Otherwise, the teacher too has the right to define the operation, and it would be offensive to behave toward her not in accordance with her own definitions. Though it should be noted that comparing the truths of mathematics with other passing opinions is, in a certain sense, silencing and no less dangerous than PC.
According to the lomdan, 2+2=2, since “two are like a hundred.”
According to the banker, 2+2=0.5, since 2.5 are deducted as a “line fee” 🙂
And if you ask a lawyer what 2+2 is, he will answer: “Tell me what you want it to be, and we’ll arrange it for you” 🙂
Regards, Kalkulitically Correct
In Zehava’s case, she did not use the rules of PC in order to silence; she got annoyed by a troll.
If I tell Peretz that he resembles Adolf—both had a mustache—he will get annoyed, and justifiably,
not because of Godwin’s law.
I read the last column, which deals among other things with the difference between Ponevezh and Slobodka. I enjoyed your expertise on the subject; even most students of these yeshivot, especially those in Ponevezh, generally have no idea what you are talking about. But I wanted to add a few things.
A. Although it is true that most roshei yeshiva and ramim came out of Ponevezh, none of this indicates a systemic failure in the Slobodka method for two reasons. First, because the number of dayanim of Slobodka origin is incomparably greater than the number of dayanim who came out of Ponevezh, and this stems from the fact that the Ponevezh style of lomdus is no more suited to halakhic reality than the Slobodka style of lomdus is suited to yeshiva-style lomdus. Second, most Slobodka graduates are not interested in positions such as ramim and are content with being heads of kollelim and the like. The difference lies in a deep ideological division: the Ponevezhers were educated that the supreme value is to learn and to teach, even if this means that throughout one’s life one will go over the same five tractates again and again, whereas the Slobodkans were educated that until you finish the “learning,” you should not begin the “teaching.”
B. There is a certain problem with the solution you found to the issue—that they should first learn in Ponevezh and afterward continue in the way of Slobodka. On paper this sounds feasible, but in reality, after you have become accustomed to a certain learning method and the mind has been algorithmically programmed to certain codes, you cannot one day forget everything, because these are two completely different things, and one method fundamentally contradicts the other. From the Slobodkans’ point of view, the recitations of lomdus by the Ponevezhers, who say things without genuine independent understanding, are sheer wasting of Torah study. I agree that learning in the Slobodka way without limits can bring—and does bring—certain people to the realms of foolish and distorted belly-sevarot, and therefore one needs to be wise and recognize the basic lomdus. But it does not seem to me possible in the way you presented it.
A. I do not know whether it is a systemic failure. Lomdus is not built in there, and in my personal opinion (as a Ponevezher) it is the main thing in learning. Indeed, dayanim and rabbis can emerge from there too, and perhaps even more so from there. The value of lomdus (and not the value of learning) is also what leads them not to shy away from returning to the same tractates again and again. It is strange that the avoidance of going into dayanut and rabbanut among Ponevezhers traces itself to the Chazon Ish, who saw this as learning not for its own sake. And precisely Slobodka’s Chazon-Ishniks are less deterred by that.
B. I understand that this is difficult, but not impossible. After all, that is exactly why everyone gets stuck in the place where he began. But those who reach the summit are the ones willing to work and exert themselves and not go with their natural inclination. I claim that in order to grow, a person should begin in Ponevezh and continue in Slobodka.
After such a long introduction about the differences between Ponevezh and Slobodka, I’d be happy if you would spell out two different examples from the Talmud.