Q&A: Who Said the Torah Was Given by God???
Who Said the Torah Was Given by God???
Question
Honorable Rabbi,
I wanted to ask the Rabbi whether there is any argument or proof that God commanded us the commandments written in the Torah.
Besides the fact that Moses apparently did not write the entire Torah [I very much hope the Rabbi agrees], there is also no proof of the giving of the Torah.
How can one keep the whole Torah and invest so much effort when we have no proof that the Torah is what God commanded???
There are many religions; all of them have stories that once their god or gods gave them something, or miracles that happened to their ancestors. Why is Judaism different from all the others? If anything, the opposite: Judaism has the flimsiest tradition, from 3,500 years ago!!! Islam is from 1,500 years ago, Christianity from 2,000, and as you can see they all have traditions. I stress that I have absolutely no intention of saying they are the correct religion [you can quickly grasp what I mean]. I am only proving that tradition is nonsense. And it is not only them; there are many other traditions that are ridiculously absurd. So really, how am I supposed to observe commandments calmly, when I have no proof that this is what God commanded?
In short, my question is: is there any proof besides tradition that the Torah is what God gave, and that the commandments written there are really what God wants?
Answer
My first book is devoted to these questions (an initial version appears in the notebooks here on the site).
Discussion on Answer
And by the way, what is the first book?
What about the revelation at Mount Sinai?
After all, in Christianity and Islam it was one person who claimed that he spoke with God, and people were asked to believe him.
But in Judaism the event took place before the eyes of the entire nation.
If you are interested, there is a lecture on the subject called: The Torch Race.
But of course, only after Rabbi Michael’s book.
Again, tradition??? I’ll repeat my wording: “There are many religions; all of them have stories that once their god or gods gave them something, or miracles that happened to their ancestors. Why is Judaism different from all the others? If anything, the opposite: Judaism has the flimsiest tradition, from 3,500 years ago!!! Islam is from 1,500 years ago, Christianity from 2,000, and as you can see they all have traditions. I stress that I have absolutely no intention of saying they are the correct religion [you can quickly grasp what I mean]. I am only proving that tradition is nonsense. And it is not only them; there are many other traditions that are ridiculously absurd. So really, how am I supposed to observe commandments calmly???” Tradition is a joke. And “before our eyes”—meaning, who told you there was a revelation at Mount Sinai??? The Torah. And who told you the Torah was given by God??? As for Mount Sinai, there’s an embarrassing circularity here.
But the Rabbi said his first book [I don’t know what “first” means], but I’ll repeat myself again:
Before investing the time to read 400 pages, I’m just asking for an introduction: is there additional proof besides tradition?
If there is additional proof, I would be very happy to read the whole book eagerly.
There are lots of books and lots of lectures that prove in an unprecedented way why Judaism is different from every other religion!
I beg you to look up the lecture The Torch Race or read Rabbi Neugroschel’s book: Journey to the Peak of Mount Sinai. I swear to you: he explains amazingly—more than you ever imagined was possible—why Judaism is different and why Judaism has a tradition that is proven a million percent. I used to think like you, and after I read the book my mind changed. Please don’t form an opinion before you read the book or listen to the lecture The Torch Race. I’m not trying to brush you off; I was in that place, and today I think differently.
With love, Elchanan Rhine.
Don’t give up on such an important topic: buy the books and invest the effort.
Elchanan, first of all thank you.
But I understand from you that they prove it from tradition. You—who apparently read the books—just explain to me for a second as an introduction: how does he give authority to something so weak [I’m not rejecting it; I just want an introduction]?
His idea is roughly this:
He describes a situation in which maybe it’s all false and some person comes along and writes the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) and tries to hand it out to people and convince them that their forefathers stood at Mount Sinai, and he drops Judaism on them.
He proves there, in about 10 different ways, that it couldn’t be that people would accept the lie!!!!
It’s long and complicated and requires investment, but I promise you it’s interesting and you’ll enjoy it tremendously. Promise.
It can’t really be laid out here, just like quantum theory can’t really be laid out here.
Okay, thanks, I’ll read it.
Elchanan, this is where the mistake is. Nobody thinks that in one instant someone managed to convince an entire people that he knew their history better than they did. The claim is that this developed over a very long period of time (beginning perhaps with something that, in the eyes of the ancient world, could have been perceived as mystical) until the Jewish tradition reached its current dimensions. Does Neugroschel raise that possibility at all?
Yes. Neugroschel raises that possibility and proves in various ways that the Torah was given as a single unit.
In the plains of Moab.
Read Neugroschel’s book, and also the book by Spinoza that argues the opposite, and decide for yourself.
I recommend looking on the site “Ladaat Lehaamin”; there’s a whole article there that discusses the topic. The basic premise is clarifying the value of tradition. You’ll be surprised how fundamental it is.
Also on Yehoshua Enbal’s Ratio site there are dozens (!) of articles about this, written by him, including polemics with Adi Avir. Were you convinced? Let us know!
Before investing the time to read 400 pages, I’m just asking for an introduction: is there additional proof besides tradition?