Q&A: The Law of Seclusion with Two Men and One Woman
The Law of Seclusion with Two Men and One Woman
Question
I saw that the halakhic ruling is that two men with one woman is not considered seclusion, while two women with one man is considered seclusion (because they’re not embarrassed??)
In my humble opinion, in any case, as long as there are more than two people in the room there is no concern of seclusion.
But if anything, shouldn’t the concern be the opposite?
From my limited experience, it actually seems to me that men are less embarrassed than women.
In short, how should one act according to Jewish law? It seems to me this needs a first-rate halakhic ruling.
Answer
Two women with one man is a dispute among the halakhic decisors. Two men with one woman comes from the Mishnah in Kiddushin 80b. Simply speaking, this rule is rabbinic, and therefore when there is doubt one may be lenient. There are various qualifications to the law of seclusion that indicate that the matter depends on an assessment of the actual circumstances (for example, the distinction between promiscuous people and those who are not). Therefore, in my opinion one may be lenient when dealing with people who are not promiscuous.
The Talmud in Kiddushin (80b) says that Rav Yehuda said in the name of Rav that the permission of two men and one woman was said only regarding upright people, but for promiscuous people—even with ten—it is forbidden to be in seclusion. The Gemara relates that Rav and Rav Yehuda were walking on the road and met a certain woman. Rav said: let us flee from here before we reach Gehenna. Rav Yehuda asked him: but isn’t one woman permitted to be in seclusion with two men? Rav answered: “Who says that this means upright people like me and you? Rather, what kind of upright people? Like Rabbi Hanina bar Pappi and his colleagues.” That is, the permission for upright people did not exist even for Rav and Rabbi Yehuda!
And that is indeed how Maimonides ruled: that there is no permission for seclusion even with two men and one woman. However, Ritva and Rashba and other medieval authorities ruled that two men may be in seclusion with one woman. They maintain that Rav and Rav Yehuda acted this way only out of piety, but in truth, in principle, two men are permitted to be in seclusion with one woman!
Practically speaking, the Shulchan Arukh (Even HaEzer 22:5) ruled stringently like Maimonides, that even two men and one woman are forbidden. On the other hand, the Rema ruled leniently, that an ordinary person is presumed upright, and therefore two men may be in seclusion with one woman. There is a very significant practical difference in the army when there are two soldiers with a female jeep driver in an isolated place—for Sephardim this is not simple.