Radio 103 Interview on Conservatism and Renewing Halakha
This transcription was produced automatically using artificial intelligence. There may be inaccuracies in the transcribed content and in speaker identification.
🔗 Link to the original lecture
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Table of Contents
- [0:00] The trilogy and criticism of religious conservatism
- [1:11] The LGBTQ conflict and the dissonance between Leviticus and life
- [2:30] Modernity, the Enlightenment, and the beginning of the problems
- [3:51] Change from the ground up: women and feminism in Orthodoxy
- [4:56] A systematic theory for distinguishing reform from change
Summary
General Overview
Rabbi Michael Abraham presents a new trilogy of books arguing that religious conservatism is suffocating Judaism. He speaks as an Orthodox person who identifies a widespread feeling that commitment to Jewish law and to the halakhic tradition demands a kind of thick-skinned dulling that drives people into severe distress, sometimes to the point of abandoning their commitment to the system. He says that these hardships were the trigger for dealing with the issue, but not the goal. In his view, the real problem is that the halakhic system is not doing what is right even aside from those hardships. He describes a change taking place on the ground from the bottom up, but argues that both the conservatism that refuses to respond to what is happening on the ground and the grassroots reality that acts without justification are mistaken. Therefore, a systematic theory is needed to distinguish between reform and legitimate change within Jewish law.
The Trilogy and the Claim About Dulling and Distress
Rabbi Michael Abraham says that the trilogy is broad in scope, so he can only sketch a few general lines. He points to a feeling that commitment to Jewish law or to the halakhic tradition demands a certain kind of emotional thickening or dulling. He says this feeling has real substance. But he feels that many times it leads people into severe hardship, and some are forced to abandon their commitment to the system because of it. He notes that the hardships were the trigger, but the real justification for writing is that he himself feels these things. He stresses that he did not come to solve hardships, but to point out that the real problem is that the system is not doing what is right even if there had been no hardships.
Religious LGBTQ People, Society’s Attitude Toward Them, and a Proposed Interpretation
The interviewer presents the community of religious LGBTQ people as an example of a complete dissonance between the book of Leviticus and their lives, alongside a desire to participate in religious practice and identify with it. He emphasizes that Orthodox Jewish law is very unequivocal. Rabbi Abraham says there are many kinds of problems, and he is not necessarily talking about current issues dominating public discourse. Still, in the context of homosexuals, he thinks a more comprehensive examination is needed regarding society’s attitude toward them. He states that even if the matter is forbidden, that does not necessarily mean the attitude toward them should be what it has been, and he adds that the attitude has in fact been changing lately. He also proposes an interpretive suggestion that could even enter the halakhic realm.
Modernity, the Enlightenment, and the Feeling That Everything Could Be Circumvented
The interviewer asks whether the problem begins only with modernity, only from the moment there was a need to respond to the Enlightenment movement. Before that, he says, from the Talmud and the Talmudic text one gets the impression that with enough pilpul, they managed to get around anything. He adds that among the fathers of postmodernism there are many people who are products of the yeshiva world. Rabbi Abraham agrees with the description, but says that this is an external way of looking at the system. He emphasizes that someone who lives inside the system understands that even within it there is a mode of conduct that is not as autonomous as it may seem.
The Court Analogy and the Claim That There Is Truth and Justice Within the System
Rabbi Abraham compares looking at Jewish law from the outside to the way many people feel that the court system just does whatever it wants. He says that sometimes he also has that feeling. He explains that, from his understanding of how people view him as a rabbi and as a religious person, he tries to understand how legal professionals feel when people look at them from the outside. That understanding leads him to conclude that, at least from their own perspective, there is truth and justice there, and not everything is really lawless chaos.
Bottom-Up Change, Crisis of Trust, and the Need for a Systematic Theory
The interviewer, who defines himself as belonging to the liberal wing of the knitted-kippah community and as more traditional than religious, says that in recent years change has been happening on the ground from the bottom up rather than from the top down. Among other reasons, he says, there is no rabbinic leadership with enough authority, and no one is willing to take responsibility for changes because everyone is too alarmed. He gives the example of women being called up to the Torah in some Orthodox synagogues, and says that various things are happening. He argues that perhaps the solution will come from the people and from the land, and then rise upward. Rabbi Abraham says this is true, and that changes in the past often also happened from below. But, he says, that is a mixed blessing. In his view there are two sides here, and both are mistaken: the conservative side that refuses to respond to what is happening on the ground, and the grassroots reality that has lost trust in its rabbinic leadership and therefore also does things that have no justification. He says the main importance lies in developing a systematic theory of changes in Jewish law, one that would make it possible to distinguish between reform and change that is, in his view, legitimate within the halakhic system. That way one can give a person a direct and truthful answer as to whether the change is possible, whether there is a way to allow it, or at least explain it.
Conclusion of the Conversation and Final Blessing
The interviewer says they will follow up, peek into the books, and study them. He thanks Rabbi Michael Abraham for joining the broadcast and signs off. Rabbi Abraham closes with the statement: May the old be renewed and the new be sanctified.
Full Transcript
[Speaker A] You understand? It’s like something, but now here, maybe this is connected to what we’re talking about. Rabbi Michael Abraham, hello to you.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Hello, hello, good morning.
[Speaker A] You’re putting out a new trilogy of books that argues that religious conservatism is suffocating Judaism, and you’re speaking as an Orthodox person, I understand. Right. Listen, you really have to get our attention now, because we’re, you know, running at a very, very high intensity. So here, your time—explain the claim to us.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Since the trilogy is something fairly broad, I can only give a few general outlines. There’s a certain feeling that commitment to Jewish law, or to the halakhic tradition, requires some kind of thick-skinned dulling from us, and that feeling really has substance. But I feel that many times this pushes people into severe distress, and some of them are forced to abandon their commitment to the system because of that distress. That was the trigger for dealing with the issue, but it’s only a trigger. The real justification is that I myself feel these things.
[Speaker A] Because what are we talking about? The first thing that comes to my mind when you say that is, for example, the community of religious LGBTQ people, who are in a complete dissonance between the book of Leviticus and their lives, and yet they want to participate in religious practice and they feel identified with it. And here Orthodox Jewish law is very, very unequivocal. So what—how do you solve that?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Here I really think we need to distinguish—there are many, many kinds of problems. I’m actually not necessarily talking about current issues that dominate our public discourse, although even in this context of homosexuals I think we need to make a more comprehensive examination, first of all regarding the attitude toward them. Even if the thing itself is forbidden, that still does not necessarily mean that the attitude toward them should be what it currently is, although I think that has been changing lately. Beyond that, I also propose a certain interpretive suggestion that could even enter the halakhic dimension. But that’s not the point. I’m not coming to solve hardships. The hardships were the trigger. As far as I’m concerned, the real problem is that we’re not doing what is right, even if there were no hardships. The feeling is that people who come to make changes are basically the reformers, while someone loyal to tradition is supposed to preserve.
[Speaker C] So first of all, isn’t this a problem that begins only with modernity? Isn’t this a problem that begins only from the moment there was a need to respond to the Enlightenment movement? Because before that, from the Talmud—you get the impression, from the Talmudic text you get the impression, that they managed to get around anything with enough pilpul. You know, there really are many people among the fathers of postmodernism who are products of the yeshiva world.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] True, but I think that’s a perspective that is, in my view, external
[Speaker C] to the system.
[Speaker A] Whoever—
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Whoever lives within the system understands that even inside the system there is a kind of conduct that is not autonomous in the way people want to think—it’s just not true. Sometimes it looks that way, you know, like with regard to the court system: many people have the feeling that the court just does whatever it wants. Sometimes I also have that feeling. From my understanding of how people see me—as a rabbi, as a religious person—I try to understand how jurists feel when we look at them from the outside. And that understanding basically tells me that probably, at least from their perspective, there is truth and justice there; not everything is really ownerless chaos.
[Speaker A] But I’ll tell you what, Michael—look, what’s actually happening in recent years, and let’s say I belong to the liberal wing of the knitted-kippah community, I define myself as more traditional than religious, to tell the truth about myself—the change is happening on the ground. Meaning, it’s not from the top down, it’s from the bottom up. Because there isn’t rabbinic leadership with enough authority, and also no one will take it upon himself because everyone is pretty alarmed about making changes. So what happens is that the grassroots reality is working. Women are being called up to the Torah in some Orthodox synagogues, different things are happening. This obviously shows up very strongly in the feminist story, because women are suddenly stepping forward, but also in other things. And maybe the solution will come from there—from the people, from the land—it will rise upward.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] First of all, that’s true, and I think, by the way, that it was also true in the past—changes often happen from below. But that’s a mixed blessing. Meaning, there are two sides here that in my view are both mistaken. The conservative side, which refuses to respond to what is happening on the ground, and the grassroots reality, which has lost trust in its rabbinic leadership and therefore is also doing things that have no justification. And in my view, this is the main importance of developing a systematic theory. Changes in Jewish law—because a systematic theory allows me to distinguish between reform and a change that, at least in my view, is legitimate within the halakhic system—and then I can give a person a direct and truthful answer: listen, this change is possible, there is a way to allow it, or at least to explain it.
[Speaker A] Okay, we’ll follow this, we’ll have to peek into the books and study them and read them. That was the taste of it. Rabbi Michael Abraham, thank you very much for coming on the air.
[Speaker C] May the old be renewed and the new be sanctified.
[Speaker A] But what happened was—