Interview with Rabbi Michael Abraham on Galatz about Haredi conscription – The Third Path
This transcript was produced automatically using artificial intelligence. There may be inaccuracies in the transcribed content and in speaker identification.
🔗 Link to the original lecture
🔗 Link to the transcript on Sofer.AI
Table of Contents
- The policy of a “consensual solution” and why it fails
- The failure of education and integration programs
- Enforcing the law without compromise
- The Third Path as an alternative from the ground up
- Cautious hope
Summary
General Overview
A short interview on Army Radio with Rabbi Dr. Michael Abraham on the issue of Haredi military conscription, as part of the public discourse that emerged following the war. The Rabbi offers a sharp analysis of the problem: the Haredi leadership does not see draft evasion as a problem that needs solving, and therefore a consensual solution is impossible. The only solution is law enforcement, or alternatively, disconnecting Haredim from the framework that traps them from within.
The policy of a “consensual solution” and why it fails
The Rabbi argues that there is an ingrained tendency to look for a consensual solution to Haredi integration. But a consensual solution requires a basic condition: that both sides agree there is a problem and seek to solve it. That condition does not exist, because the Haredi leadership (as distinct from people on the ground) does not see a problem—on the contrary, the sense of persecution and oppositional identity is “almost essential to Haredi identity,” and peace would amount to “suicide” from their point of view.
The failure of education and integration programs
The Rabbi cites as an example the State Comptroller’s findings on integrating Haredim into higher education: billions invested with no real results. The money is used by the Haredim “to perpetuate the problem”—for example, by training thousands of teachers who only strengthen the Haredi system, which is itself the problem. Money intended to turn Haredim into engineers ends up making them “even more Haredi.”
Enforcing the law without compromise
The Rabbi’s position is unequivocal: the law must be enforced, without recoiling from confrontation. He warns that even an alternative coalition (a “change coalition”) would try to look for a consensual solution, because its components (center-left and moderate right) tend toward moderation, and as a result, even after elections, “nothing will change.”
The Third Path as an alternative from the ground up
The Rabbi describes The Third Path as a movement trying to give expression to the reality on the ground, which differs from the position of the leadership. Among Haredim on the ground, there are many people who want to integrate—both for practical reasons and for reasons of values. The alternative to direct coercion is to “disconnect” Haredim from their internal framework that is suffocating them, and to save them from themselves. As long as oversight over the channels of solution (in higher education and in the military) is handed over to the Haredim themselves, the result will be perpetuation.
Cautious hope
The Rabbi concludes by expressing hope that grassroots activity will help advance change, even though he does not see the solution coming “from above”—not from the current government, and perhaps not from the next one either.
Full Transcript
[Speaker B] And we’re here with Rabbi Dr. Michael Michael Abraham. Good morning, Rabbi.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Good morning.
[Speaker B] From the Advanced Institute for Torah at Bar-Ilan, and founder of The Third Path. And we’re with you on the central question of the past few months: the Haredim, the draft, and the war before us. How do you bring the Haredim into the public framework at all?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] First of all, I think I know how not to bring them in. In other words, we have this tendency to look for a consensual solution. There are even those who claim that’s the only way to bring them in, because force won’t work. There’s something to that. But a consensual solution, a policy of consensual solution, has a condition. And the condition is that both sides agree there is a problem and are looking for a solution. Right. That condition does not exist here.
[Speaker B] Not both sides see it—I understand you—you mean that only one side sees there being a problem here.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Exactly. More than that, I’ll tell you that the Haredi leadership, as opposed to people on the ground—the Haredi leadership, from its point of view, the problem is its very existence. Meaning, it’s built on there being opposition, on there being, supposedly, persecution. The feeling of being persecuted is almost essential to Haredi identity. And the moment universal peace breaks out here between the different parts of society, for them that would be suicide. So to build on the idea that they will agree in order to achieve a consensual solution—that is simply a logical mistake. The State Comptroller’s findings published, I don’t know, ten days ago or something like that, about integrating Haredim into higher education, are wonderful evidence of this. We’ve been investing billions there for quite a few years already, and nothing comes of it. Various results get published, sometimes there are anecdotes about this or that Haredi who made it into high-tech or something like that. In the end, when you look at the numbers, this money serves the Haredim to perpetuate the problem. They invest it in teaching, for example—thousands of education students who of course have no real use within the Haredi system, and even if they do have a use in that system, all they’ll do is help perpetuate the problem, because that system is the problem. So why should we train teachers who will strengthen that system? But the money we invest in order to turn them into engineers actually turns them into even more Haredi.
[Speaker B] You know, when you describe things the way you do, Rabbi, I find that this problematic dynamic exists among all of us, including the Religious Zionist public. Not—
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] I didn’t understand.
[Speaker B] The way we take in the picture of reality is shared by everyone, not just one group.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] The way we take in pictures of reality today is problematic in many areas. But in this case it’s doubly obvious, because the picture itself is the essence of the problem. Yes. So what are you saying?
[Speaker B] You’re basically—if I understand you correctly—saying that the law simply needs to be enforced.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Obviously. The law needs to be enforced, and we shouldn’t recoil from confrontation.
[Speaker B] I’ll say even more than that—and without overthinking this whole let’s-come-to-an-understanding approach—after all, this group has kept itself separate until now, and that’s not okay. I’m telling you things that are common across society in its attitude toward the Haredim, both among the Religious Zionist public and among secular people.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Right, and that’s exactly why I think it’s very important to clarify this point. I’ll tell you more than that: people are counting on the idea that in the next elections we’ll get a different coalition. By the way, unfortunately I’m very far from sure of that, but let’s assume we do. Then a coalition comes to power—what used to be called maybe the change coalition, or its cousin, or something like that. The components of such a coalition tend to look for consensual solutions. Center-left people certainly do, but even the right wing that belongs to such a coalition—that’s its agenda. Let’s look for a consensual solution; it’s a more moderate camp. And the result is that even after the elections, nothing will change.
[Speaker B] Yes. So you’re saying there will be no consensual solution here; the draft has to be imposed on the Haredim, period, and from there things will roll forward.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] If such a thing can happen at all, it can only happen through coercion. A consensual solution, logically, cannot help here. We at The Third Path are trying to advance some kind of movement that tries to give expression to what’s happening on the ground, because what I described is the situation of the leadership, but the situation on the ground is different. On the Haredi ground there are quite a few people who definitely want to integrate, both for practical reasons—
[Speaker B] You’re saying that on the basis of personal familiarity, Dr. Abraham?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Yes, absolutely. Both from personal familiarity and from surveys we’ve conducted.
[Speaker B] Meaning, you’re saying that if we know how to bypass the Haredi rabbinate, the Haredi leadership, we’ll succeed in producing that agreement with the Haredim themselves.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Right. Meaning, one of two things: either through coercion, or by trying to disconnect them from their own framework, which is suffocating them. We need to save them from themselves. If we can do that—and that’s what we’re trying to do in The Third Path—then maybe there is a chance for a consensual solution. Because what happens today is that this so-called agreement gives control over the paths to a solution, both in higher education and in the army, to the Haredim themselves. There are Haredi dictators here who make sure that people remain Haredi and that, heaven forbid, the problem not be solved.
[Speaker B] What are the chances that everything you’re saying will actually happen, Rabbi Abraham? How do you see our future?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Look, among other things, I’m not inclined toward politics. I don’t like politics or public activism. One of the reasons I deal with this anyway is because, in my view, it’s the only way to make progress, because I don’t see a way from above to solve the problem. It probably won’t happen, not even under the next coalition, if it’s different. And so I hope this will help us move forward. Among other things, ideas like these, which help us bring these things a bit more to the public’s attention, may help us advance the matter.
[Speaker B] Rabbi Dr. Michael Abraham, thank you very much for your remarks, Rabbi. Thank you very much. Good morning.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Thank you.