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Q&A: The Torah as the Will of God

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The Torah as the Will of God

Question

With God's help,
Hello and blessings,
I once heard from you the principle that the Torah has a dual status:
1. A commandment among the 613 commandments. 2. A value as a phenomenon that reveals God's will.
(And this is also stated in the novellae of Rabbi Isaac Zev Soloveitchik at the end of the laws of blessings in the name of his father of blessed memory, and you cited it from Rabbi Wolbe's book Commandments Equal in Weight.)
You argued then—and it makes sense—that the main devotion to Torah study is because of the value in the thing itself, and indeed those are fine words, fitting for the one who said them. But I have two difficulties with this:
1. I am studying Two Are Holding; the beginning of the chapter—actually, the overwhelming majority of it—deals with the laws of plaintiff and defendant. There are many discussions there that do not have even the slightest basis in the Written Torah; it is all logical reasoning—the status of the holder as in possession of half or all, migo (to extract, since he could have remained silent, from one monetary case to another), "certainty does not remove from definite possession" (2a, Tosafot beginning "and this one takes a quarter"), admission of a litigant, "here it is," and so on. True, there is the supporting witness, and majority, and priestly gifts on pages 6-7, but all of the above require real effort when they are not themselves God's will. Perhaps one could say that God's will is that we conduct ourselves according to them—but then we are back to the value of commandment and the technical study of learning in order to conduct ourselves and know what to do (like Torah study for women). God's will is that we judge just laws, but seemingly secular systems of civil law could answer that need just as well. Is plaintiff-and-defendant really nothing more than "Torah in the person"?! I am astonished.
2. A similar difficulty occurred to me this past Shushan Purim. I spent a little time discussing the laws of sending portions, and then I realized that this is basically just something human beings invented and I have to do. After all, Rabbi Meir Simcha said (Meshekh Chokhmah, Deuteronomy 17:11) that God's will is not necessarily in the body of the command itself; if so, there is no intrinsic value in studying all rabbinic laws. And if you say Purim and the Scroll of Esther are different, since they are not nullified in the future to come (Maimonides, end of chapter 2 of the laws of Megillah), and they are like Torah itself (as Rabbi Isaac Zev Soloveitchik infers in his first piece on Megillah), and their foundation is in the words of the prophets and divine inspiration—I would be glad if you could also explain that category—what about the rest of rabbinic law?
 
With esteem for the Torah and deep gratitude from the bottom of my heart for your contributions to the world of Torah in particular and Judaism in general,
Miki

Answer

I did not understand the description at the beginning of your remarks (I do not remember what was being discussed there), nor the connection to the questions.
As for the difficulties you raised themselves, Nefesh HaChaim in Gate 4 and Tanya chapters 4-5 already wrote that the study of Jewish law is the study of God's will and is cleaving to Him Himself (for He and His will are one). Jewish law, which is God's will, can also emerge from the reasoning of the sages and their interpretation, for He implanted those reasonings within us, and therefore everything is a revelation of His will. There is no difference between laws that emerge from reasoning and laws that are written in the Torah. In fact, there are no laws written in the Torah that do not pass through interpretation, except perhaps something the Sadducees would also agree to—and those are a very tiny number of laws.
If this does not answer, perhaps clarify the sides of the issue and the difficulty more.

Discussion on Answer

Miki (2017-03-18)

Rabbi Meir Simcha established in the Meshekh Chokhmah cited above—and the same is stated by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto, brought by Rabbi Elchanan in the essay you often quote, "Repentance"—that there are two aspects in commandments: obedience to the command, and realization of a certain value. The first component is equal in all commandments, and about the second it was said, "Be as careful with a light commandment as with a weighty one," and "Torah study is greater than all the commandments." Torah study as a commandment is on par with tefillin, charity, and lulav; its specific value is what gives it its unique status. You wanted to argue something similar regarding repentance as well: that even if it is a commandment, its main greatness is because of the value it embodies—free choice, and so on.

Rabbi Meir Simcha further argued that when the sages enact a law, the first component—obedience—exists, but there is no spiritual value, as is explicit in the Atvan DeOraita that the sages do not create legal status in the object itself, and in the Netivot, well known in section 34, and the matter is ancient.

Now when the sages enact a law, that is not fully compelling logic, as you explained in your article about the force of logical reasoning, where you brought proof from Shevut Yaakov part 3, section ? (I would be glad if you reveal how you found it—did you simply learn straight through?) that rabbinic enactments, although they have logic, are less necessary forms of reasoning. If so, when one deals with the parameters of a rabbinic law, one is dealing with understanding Mordechai's logic when he instituted sending portions, or King Solomon's logic when he decreed impurity regarding hands. I am clarifying the will of the sages, because according to Rabbi Meir Simcha—and a whole string of later authorities, and this also seems logical—God's will is not in the body of the command itself ("Would that there had been no command about this at all," roughly his language there regarding the warning to Shimei son of Gera not to leave the city).

If so, the status of Torah study regarding rabbinic laws returns to being like the other commandments, for when it does not contain the realization of the value, it is equal, on the side of the "commandment," to tzitzit, tefillin, and mezuzah. Only the added value inherent in it gives it its unique status, and that seemingly does not exist in the study of rabbinic laws.

And if you say that it is God's will that we follow rabbinic laws—granted, that is true, but still this is not engagement in the divine will, but engagement by the light of and under the command of the divine will. The value of Torah study is engagement in that will itself, as you wrote in your answer.

In summary (I assume a syllogism will make it easier for you 😉 )
1. The importance of Torah study is because it engages with God's will.
2. On the face of it, in rabbinic laws there is no God's will in the thing itself, only that people obey the framework.
Conclusion: in the study of rabbinic laws

Miki (2017-03-18)

Regarding plaintiff-and-defendant laws derived from reasoning "that God implanted in us":
After all, among the nations too, as is known, there are amazingly wise people who built systems of law, and despite all the reasoning in them, that is not Torah study. So what distinguishes laws stated by the sages of Israel in terms of the reasoning within them?

Summary
1. Your claim is that plaintiff-and-defendant is also Torah in the object, since reasoning is itself Torah.
2. Secular systems of civil law also answer to reasoning.
3. Secular systems of civil law are not Torah.

Michi (2017-03-19)

First, in the commandment of Torah study the distinction is different. The commandment of Torah study is reciting the Shema morning and evening. Torah study by virtue of its fundamental value is everything else. This is not a relationship between command and content, but between command and that which goes beyond the command. But regarding commandments in general, there is indeed the command and the content/essence.
As for your question, rabbinic laws too contain compelling reasonings, but they are weaker. For example, separating food from waste, which is prohibited only rabbinically, has a compelling logic for forbidding it. But this is a selection not strong enough for the Torah to forbid it. The underlying logic, however, is God's logic, just as in separating waste from food. It is just that even according to His standard, it is not strong enough to forbid. Note well: when I say the reasoning is not strong, I do not mean it is not correct. It is entirely correct, but what the reasoning says is that it is fitting to forbid, while the prohibition is weak. For example, the Torah could have raised the threshold of prohibition and forbidden only things punishable by karet or execution by a religious court, and then all ordinary prohibitions would have been permitted by Torah law. But that would not mean there is no compelling reasoning in a regular prohibition. The reasoning is compelling, but the prohibition that emerges from it is weaker. And so too in our case, when the threshold is above rabbinic prohibitions.
Think about it: after all, even compelling reasoning is the reasoning of the person who thinks it. So why are you satisfied with compelling reasoning? Clearly because compelling reasoning expresses the will of the Holy One, blessed be He. Rabbinic reasoning also expresses His will, only it is a weaker will. One can say that a rabbinic prohibition is half a Torah prohibition—and not as people usually think, that there is no Torah-level problem in it at all.
From this you can also understand that if there is non-compelling reasoning—not in content, but in its logical force—that is not a prohibition at all, but at most a possible prohibition.
And as is known, the later authorities already distinguished between two types of rabbinic restrictions: expansion of the forbidden labor rabbinically—these are exactly the weak reasonings I defined above—and a decree lest one come to the labor itself, where there is no essential reasoning at all, only a technical reasoning that perhaps one may fail and come to a Torah prohibition. But even that is a compelling reasoning; it is just that the act in itself is not problematic at all. I should note, however, that Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook wrote in Mussar Avikha that even fences and decrees contain something of the prohibition itself. And the words of the Netivot HaMishpat, that rabbinic prohibitions are on the person and not on the object, were said either about prohibitions of the second type, or perhaps also the first type, because at the end of the day the Torah did not forbid it. The problem is in the object—a problem of half a Torah prohibition—but the prohibition is only on the person.
See an interesting article about this by Daniel Weil in Higayon 1. I do not agree with his bringing quantum logic into the sages, but his proof from the sugya of the golden city that a rabbinic prohibition is half a Torah prohibition is good.

It follows that when one deals with a rabbinic law—at least those that are half a Torah prohibition—one is learning God's will, but the weaker wills. As for fences, there is room to discuss, because in themselves they involve no problem at all. But even person-based reasonings are God's will of "make a safeguard for My safeguard."

If you study what the nations established and find in it reasoning, you have learned Torah. Every correct reasoning contains an aspect of Torah study. True, so long as the sages did not insert it into Jewish law as a rabbinic law, perhaps it is not really Torah in the object. In any case, it is Torah not because a non-Jew said it, but because it is true.

Mushe (2017-03-19)

I only understood the Rabbi's nice answer, not Miki's question (:

Miki (2017-03-19)

Thank you very much for the detailed answer. As usual, you taught me many new things.
1. If the sages' reasoning expresses a problem in the object, then according to Rabbi Shimon ("prohibitions of benefit are like deadly poisons," and apparently he means that this is how the Torah expects us to relate to them), we should have to be stringent. After all, that is where we started: how can one be lenient in a rabbinic doubt if the obligation to obey them is from the Torah? And the answer is that one is stringent in doubt only because of the damage to the essence, and because they are like deadly poisons as above. According to your words, while in rabbinic law there is no *prohibition* in the object, there is still a problem nonetheless, and if so it would seem there should be an obligation by logic to be stringent in a rabbinic doubt:
1. There is reasoning not to do problematic things.
2. Rabbinic prohibitions express problematic things / rabbinic commandments express positive values.
3. Stringency in doubtful cases is not because of the command but because of the essence and the reasoning.
4. In a rabbinic doubt one may be lenient.

And I have not found any halakhic decisor who says this, though there is something similar regarding a rabbinic prohibition in which it is easy to be stringent, but that is only out of "better to do good."

Should one say that rabbinic law is a problem/value on such a low level that one need not trouble oneself over it in a doubtful case—even according to many authorities, even where the obligation was previously established?
Or is there a difference between the "problem," which is indeed in the object, and the "prohibition," which is only on the person, and one is stringent in doubt not because of the problem but because of the prohibition?

2. Studying the penalty laws of civil law is Torah?! How far does this go? Is studying physics too—which reflects distinct facts more than intuition—Torah study? One can say that reasoning *obligates*, but still this is an extra-Torah system. After all, a non-Jew who dealt in reasoning certainly is not liable to death, and no one ever doubted that. Just imagine: if I read a book of aphorisms by Solomon Aves, collecting from the life-wisdom of many people, am I thereby fulfilling Torah study?! Perish the thought.

3. "So long as the sages have not inserted it as a rabbinic law, perhaps it is not really Torah in the object"—what is there in this "insertion as a rabbinic law" that changes the situation? If the metaphysical value itself is what obligates, what difference does it make whether it was identified by our sages or theirs?

With blessings and thanks,
Miki

Michi (2017-03-19)

1. Since the problem that emerges from the reasoning is weak, only the problem is in the object, while the prohibition is on the person. Therefore there is still room for the reasoning that in a case of doubt one may be lenient. Especially if we are dealing with a kind of prohibition that is a decree, where in the act itself there is not even a problem, only a concern of arriving at a problem. I think that is what you wrote at the end of this section.
I think the analogy to poison is problematic if taken literally. It assumes spiritual damage from the thing itself, whereas object-based prohibition is different from a problem in the object. An object-based prohibition speaks of damage due to the thing's being prohibited, not because of the reason for the prohibition.
There is no halakhic obligation to be stringent in rabbinic prohibitions, but there is value in being stringent. Proof of this is the law of something that will become permitted, which is forbidden on the grounds that instead of eating it in prohibition, eat it when permitted. That proves that eating in a case of rabbinic doubt is in some sense "in prohibition." Most halakhic decisors did not write this, but in my opinion this is the truth. There was a question here about this in recent days, and a discussion arose there. See here:
https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9F-%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A8-%D7%A2%D7%9C-%D7%A2%D7%A6%D7%9E%D7%95-%D7%95%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%95-%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9B%D7%9C-%D7%9E%D7%94-%D7%A9%D7%A0%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%98%D7%9C/
2. I already explained, and I will say it again. It is not Torah because it appears in civil law or in Aves. But if there is reasoning in it, there is Torah in it. Therefore there is no point in studying civil law as such, or Aves as such. But if you find there a good reasoning, it is no worse than any other reasoning about which it is said, "Why do I need a verse? It is reasoning."
3. When the sages insert it into Jewish law, it receives binding force. So here there is also the formal dimension beyond the reasoning itself. For example, when we compel someone not to act with the trait of Sodom, it receives halakhic status. Before that it was only moral reasoning.

Miki (2017-03-30)

Hello and blessings,
Again thank you, but I still need several clarifications.

1. The nature of the "problem" that the sages identify is still not fully clear to me.
1.1. You wrote, "Since the problem that emerges from the reasoning is weak, only the problem is in the object, while the prohibition is on the person," and I am brutish and do not know: how does the conclusion follow from the fact that the problem is weak, that only the problem is in the object but the prohibition is on the person?
I assume you mean that there is something logical in the object which was not translated into a formal prohibition in the object, but only onto the person, as though no problem exists. But why should that be? After all, rabbinic prohibitions, according to your claim—following Weil's claim—are a lowering of the Torah threshold for prohibition. If so, then a problem in the object too should become an actual prohibition in the object. And one cannot say this is because the sages do not have the power to prohibit the object itself, because that itself requires explanation.
Besides that, you are uprooting Rabbi Meir Simcha's whole principle—according to your claim, the sages too express spiritual principles existing in the object, and God's will is in the body of their enactment, not only that people obey them.

1.2. You also wrote, "I think the analogy to poison is problematic if taken literally. It assumes spiritual damage from the thing itself, whereas object-based prohibition is different from a problem in the object. An object-based prohibition speaks of damage due to the thing's being prohibited, not because of the reason for the prohibition." Do you mean to say that a formal prohibition in the object is different from an essential problem in the object; that an object-based prohibition is what creates the barrier against using the object in a doubtful case, whereas a problem in the object does not create such a barrier? All this according to the traditional conception comparing prohibition to poison and holding that without object-based prohibition there is no problem, and you are pointing out that one should avoid even problems in the object even if they are not translated into prohibition. Is that what you meant?

2. You did explain again, but if you repeated it twice and not three times—you are asserting that everything logical is Torah on some level ("if there is reasoning in it, there is Torah in it"). This is a revolutionary claim, not to say destructive. But beyond everything, I think it is wrong.
As I understand it, there are two obligating systems—reason and Torah. Reason is not part of Torah, and Torah is not part of reason (otherwise it would not have had to be given—why do I need a verse, it is reasoning). Reason indeed *obligates*, but it constitutes an extra-Torah system; it is not an explicit expression of God's will like Torah, and therefore engaging in it is needed only for the practical conduct of the person and actual behavior.
I will use an argument by absurdity to illustrate: as relativists claim, there is some dimension of logic in everything. In your opinion, then, does every claim and sentence anyone says have Torah value? If my aunt is wondering whether to make compote or cake for dessert, is that a discussion worth participating in because there is *logic* one way and the other?!
I suggested Aves or civil law as examples of contents that are Torah-neutral; they are not prohibited, but certainly not of value. I understand that it does not matter where it is written (just as my aunt example was only meant to illustrate the absurdity of your claim that every reasoning is Torah).
Perhaps one should distinguish between two types of Torah: explicit God's will versus God's will understood from reasoning (Torah in the object versus Torah in the person)?

3. You wrote, "When the sages insert it into Jewish law, it receives binding force. So here there is also the formal dimension beyond the reasoning itself. For example, when we compel someone not to act with the trait of Sodom, it receives halakhic status. Before that it was only moral reasoning."
As I understand it, the insertion of a law into the binding halakhic system is similar to what I described above regarding reasoning; it has weight in practice, but not in Jewish law itself. That is exactly what Rabbi Meir Simcha said—there is not, at least not necessarily, real spiritual content in what the sages determine, but the Torah obligated us to obey them. The fact that it is binding neither adds nor detracts; it binds as an obligation of obedience to the framework and acceptance of authority, not because of the inner content of the law. Therefore there is no engagement here in God's will, for He does not necessarily will these commands themselves.

In sum—as I understand it, reason indeed obligates, but it is not an explicit expression of God's will. Therefore engaging in it does not constitute Torah study, which is engagement in God's will as transmitted to us from Sinai.
The conclusion regarding rabbinic law is that even if it rests on reasoning, that does not make it an expression of God's explicit will. I am only drawing the conclusion that follows from what Rabbi Meir Simcha said: if there is no God's will in the body of the sages' words, then they too do not constitute Torah study.
Which of the above assertions do you dispute?

Thanks in advance and all the best,
Miki

Mushe (2017-03-30)

Miki,
Just learn Talmud—why do you want to know what to learn and whether it is God's will or not?
Do you agree that learning Talmud is Torah study and that its reward comes with it?
If so, then learn Talmud and not abstract reasonings, although the Talmud also contains reasonings. But you cannot avoid learning the reasonings because they are a physical part of the material being learned—it is the give-and-take of the discussion, an inseparable part of learning Talmud!
In my opinion, if the learning brings us to reasonings, then that too is Torah study and its reward comes with it. And that is what the Rabbi said.

I am in favor of making changes where the laws and rulings are not logical.
You can give an example: "If there is no God's will in the body of the sages' words, then they do not constitute Torah study."

Michi (2017-03-30)

Hello Miki.
Unfortunately, this is too much for me. I cannot conduct such a detailed and sprawling discussion with gaps of weeks between one message and the next. Each time I have to get back into it again and read all the previous messages and remember what I said and what you said. My apologies.

Mushe (2017-03-30)

Miki, you should have quoted the Rabbi and written your note, and not in bundles… and not after a few weeks…

Miki (2017-03-31)

Hello Rabbi.
The fault is mine, sir; I should not have asked to sharpen old arguments.
Perhaps I may still find favor in your eyes and you will address this point as well.
Here is my question briefly:
There are two sources for value-obligations—reason and Torah. Reason identifies important abstract values, while Torah constitutes an explicit expression of "God's will."
Torah study is considered a value because it is an *explicit* expression of God's will, unlike reason, which identifies things in an amorphous and unformulated way.
If I am right in that last claim, then even though reason obligates in practice in the conduct of the person, it is not Torah in the object (and the same would apply to rabbinic laws).
I understand if you do not want to answer 🙂
Miki

Miki (2017-03-31)

(My question is whether reason indeed does not constitute "Torah."
If it does, why? And to what kinds of logical claims would we apply that rule? There are many logical claims in the world—so is a non-Jew who engages in them liable to death?! Should one recite the blessings over Torah on them?! Is it forbidden to engage in them in the bathroom?! )

Mushe (2017-03-31)

Miki,
Given the knowledge in the message you "wrote" above after a delay of weeks, I would have understood that we are dealing with a sharp person. But from the outset, if you knew how to formulate your question so clearly and briefly, why did you not do that before?
B. I am utterly amazed at you that you do not know the answer yourself, as an object.

Answer:
Torah is anything you learn in connection with understanding God's commandments, His attributes, and all His will from us—that is in the narrow sense.
As I clarified above, I hate hearing things that have "passed" from the world and are totally irrelevant nowadays, such as "non-Jews who engage in Torah are liable to death," and the like! That is the short answer.

Michi (2017-03-31)

Hello Miki.
First, see my article on reasoning (perhaps I referred you to it above):

סברות תורניות ומעמדן ההלכתי


In general, the sages already said, "Why do I need a verse? It is reasoning." But plainly, the intention is to reasonings that interpret God's will in the Torah, not reasonings that innovate a new law. The former are Torah in the object, and the latter are at most Torah in the person. And certainly a non-Jew who engaged in them is not liable to death. The assumption is that reasonings too were implanted in us from above by the power of thought that was created in us. I vaguely recall a book by Shalom Rosenberg that deals with the position that what emerges from reason is an ongoing giving of the Torah. Still, it seems to me that this is at most Torah in the person and not in the object.

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