So what do we have in the commandments, then? Just the act as subject to the command alone, like Leibowitz?

I didn’t understand the question. I wrote that in my opinion the commandments do have reasons, and I also wrote that we have no way of knowing what they are. I also wrote that someone who deals with the reasons for the commandments usually adds nothing at all new (he grounds the commandment in a reason or idea that was already obvious to him and to us beforehand, and if it wasn’t obvious to us, we won’t accept it even after his interpretation), and therefore there is no point in dealing with it.
So what exactly wasn’t clear here? What is the question? Why perform the commandment? Obviously because of the command. Does anyone say otherwise? See Maimonides at the end of chapter 8 of the Laws of Kings.

In my opinion you’re simply begging the question. Even if you think the essence of Judaism is Jewish law, there is certainly an experiential dimension to the service of God (“because you did not serve the Lord your God with joy and gladness of heart” — or about that too will you say that nothing can be learned from the Hebrew Bible?), and for that one needs the reasons for the commandments. And as for how one can discuss this, it should be examined according to “hear-and-obey logic,” and from that draw conclusions in a rational way (and see at length in the book Stable Truth and Not Stable).

Hello and blessings,
I really do not agree with what was said. For many of the reasons for the commandments, the Torah itself reveals them. And in places where the Torah does not reveal them, the Sages themselves spoke about it, and in many additional places the medieval authorities addressed it. So first of all, the Torah does explain the reasons, and even among the medieval authorities there is quite a bit of agreement regarding most commandments as to their reasons (simply speaking, most of the reasons given by the medieval authorities are very clear, and either make sense or can be reached independently by straightforward understanding). Therefore my claim is that the commandments do have reasons, and those reasons are very clear.
God did not give us commandments to perform with no revealed reason whatsoever — that claim has no logical basis at all, and it is far-fetched to say such a thing. No person would agree to act (whatever the motivation may be) and devote his life to something when he does not understand the significance of the acts that make up that endeavor.

And let us say amen.
If you’ve ever learned something from dealing with the reasons for the commandments, good for you. I have never in my life seen any novelty there whatsoever (in the sense relevant to the learner. There may perhaps be some novelty in a new explanation of a commandment, but not in a sense that would persuade me to accept something I wouldn’t have accepted without it).
And if you observe commandments only on the basis of knowing their reasons, fortunate are you, for you are greater than all the gods. I have never in my life met a person of such understanding as yours.
By the way, when the Torah itself reveals the reason, the Tannaim disputed what that means. In practice, we do not derive law from the reason even when the Torah revealed it (that is at least Maimonides’ view. See at length in our article on the fifth root).

Hello again to our master, king, wonder of the generation and its glory,
I didn’t fully understand what you meant by whether I learned something from engaging with the reasons for the commandments… I didn’t mean to say that one learns something from it, but rather that the Torah commands things whose reason it explains, or whose reason is fairly understandable, or regarding which there is a consensus among the medieval authorities about what it means in such-and-such a commandment. For example, fringes are to remember God’s commandments; the commandments dependent on the Land are to remember that the Land belongs to God; and so on.
But the claim that God commanded commandments whose meaning we do not understand is a baseless claim — a person cannot carry out commands unless he understands that they have significance and understands their meaning, even if God commanded them, even if he will receive reward, and even if various bizarre benefits are offered for it… and therefore I do not understand your words. I would be happy to receive clarification.

A second point: I did not make observance of the commandments dependent on the service of God; I only said that it is inconceivable that God would not clarify the meaning of the commands He gives and would hide them from us and command them in an arbitrary way. Of course even if I do not understand, I will still observe them, but still, in reality there is a clear and evident reason for the commandments.

As for the Tannaim — I’m not getting into that subject, but broadly I’m speaking at the level of the plain meaning of Scripture, and there the reasons are fairly clear.
Thank you!

There are two questions here, and both came up in this thread (even if not from you). 1. Are there reasons for the commandments, and can they be known? 2. What is the point of dealing with this? Question 2 follows from 1, but also serves as an indication regarding 1. Its added value is that even if we arrive at reasons and accept them, they still always turn out to be banal reasons that teach us nothing. But as I said, you chose not to deal with that, but only with 1.
On question 1, I answered that in my opinion there are reasons, but in most cases (sometimes even in the simple ones) they cannot be known. I see no problem with commands being given to us without our understanding their reasons. The wisest of all men did not understand the reasons for some of the commandments, and I assume he nevertheless observed them. If you trust the Giver of the commandments, you observe them even without understanding, because you know that this is the right thing to do. A parable: medicine you receive from a doctor. You do not know how it works, but if you trust him, you take the medicine.
People have already expounded nicely about all the situations in which people use this amusing expression “it is inconceivable,” namely that it always refers to something that not only is conceivable, but actually happens in practice. That is the case here too.
I do not know what “the level of the plain meaning of Scripture” is, or what that has to do with the Tannaim. Bottom line, in my opinion you do not know the reasons for the commandments you observe. You may know reasons for commandments written in the Torah that you do not observe (according to the tradition of the Sages). Moreover, when you know the reasons, you will always see that they can be achieved in some other way, and perhaps even better (as with fringes — blue resembles the sea…), and yet apparently you do not do that. From this too it follows that you understand these are not the real reasons.
But good luck.
Our master, wonder of the generation, etc. etc.
Signed (-)

Hello again, master,
Thank you for laying things out so clearly. Indeed, I’m dealing with the first point.
I’d like to comment briefly on what you wrote:
A. Many of the Torah’s reasons are explicit. That is a fact. Even those that are not — there is a fairly clear consensus among the medieval authorities regarding their reasons. It may be that these are banal reasons from which nothing can be learned, but the reality is that the reasons are revealed, either because they are explicit or because their meaning is clear.
B. Can one observe commandments and serve God without understanding the meaning of the commands? You argued yes. I argue no. And it’s not comparable to a doctor, because I really can take medicine once or twice, maybe even five times; but to build an entire life on that, and beyond that, a relationship with God, in such a way that I perform acts whose reasons I do not understand at all, purely as mere rituals — one cannot expect a person to live that way, and it is hard to imagine that God asks a person to live that way. Therefore my claim is that He did reveal the reasons for the commandments, etc., as stated in section A.
By the way, regarding King Solomon, all he did not understand was the commandment of the red heifer, and even there — only one detail that indeed is not understood: why it purifies the impure and renders the pure impure. And indeed, regarding the details within a commandment, that is less revealed, and one can indeed leave that unresolved if the general intent is fairly clear.

I’d be happy to hear your opinion,
and by the way, thank you for the time and for the patient response not only to me but to everyone. I see that the Rabbi responds here at a crazy pace to countless questions, while also finding time to study, teach, write books that in my opinion make an enormous contribution, and in such quantity and quality. That alone makes me disagree with you and conclude that there is heavenly individual providence from the Holy One, blessed be He, and heavenly help for the Rabbi who denies this fact (:
So again, huge thanks, and may it be God’s will that you continue your tremendous work!

Thank you for your words. If so, then whoever disagrees with me is as though he disagrees with the Divine Presence. Be careful of their burning coal. 🙂

A. I don’t know where you found many reasons that are explicit. In the fifth root, Maimonides deals with the places where the Torah explained the reasons, and you can see there that these are only a few isolated places (that’s for people like me who learn what is written in the Torah from the Ketzot).
B. If you claim that one cannot observe without understanding the reason, then I do not understand how you observe even those that you yourself admit you do not understand — like the red heifer commandment of King Solomon. As for me, I claim that you do not understand almost any of them (even the reasons brought by the commentators do not fit the parameters of Jewish law. Moreover, quite a few of them are subject to dispute. So do you make a condition in the commandment, in the style of the Avnei Nezer on the afikoman: if the reason is this, I am doing it for this purpose, and if the reason is that, I am doing it for that purpose?).
It is absolutely possible to expect a person to live this way, and the fact is that many do live this way (I claim that everyone lives this way. Because even those who think they understand are deceiving themselves and us). Once again we have returned to the issue of “it is inconceivable”…