Q&A: Jewish Law
Jewish Law
Question
A short article on halakhic experiments that was published in Maayan
https://www.scribd.com/doc/298841028/%D7%91%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%A2%D7%94-%D7%95%D7%A4%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%98%D7%94-%D7%91%D7%9B%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%95#fullscreen&from_embed
Do you agree with the claims?
Answer
That’s too general a question. If you want, raise a specific claim you’d like to discuss.
Discussion on Answer
I also found this there:
For example, a dairy spoon in a pot — in terms of making the dish dairy (I’m intentionally taking a case of permitted-into-permitted, which anyone can check for himself), or a drop of food on the outside wall, or cutting something sharp with a knife, etc. etc. — in all these cases I’m sure that neither you nor I nor anyone here would be able to detect even the slightest taste by a test like that.
It seems like a strange argument to me. In any case, even if he is right, why should the laws of absorption be determined by the taste people had in the past rather than by our taste? Besides, as I understand it, the experiments tested the amount absorbed, not the taste (whether there is a ratio of sixty there or not, and the like).
Three good arguments in three lines — that’s probably the message with the optimal ratio. Forgive me, etc.
Forgive me for focusing on a side point, but three good arguments in three lines is really an excellent ratio.
But if it gives taste [and let’s assume we measure by the benchmark of the Sages], then even if there isn’t a ratio of sixty it is prohibited.
Isn’t that so?
First, this is a dispute among the medieval authorities (Rishonim): http://hala.s196.upress.link/11148/
Second, the experiment showed that there is no taste and there isn’t a ratio of sixty, and therefore it is permitted.
And one more comment on the previous discussion: the fact that there is taste at a ratio of sixty does not have to apply to every kind of food. Obviously, it depends on how dominant the taste is of the thing being nullified (the minority component). When they estimated with sixty, they were speaking about certain foods, and therefore I don’t see any necessity for the conclusion you brought that nowadays the sense of taste is different.
In the past I heard the claim that nowadays the density of the material is so high that there is almost no taste absorbed, unlike in the past when a much larger amount would be absorbed.
And just as evidence from the law of spices, which they permitted to grind on a Jewish holiday because the taste of a spice ground today is not similar to one ground on the eve of the holiday — a taste distinction that most of the celebrity chefs photographed on boxes of pots and pans wouldn’t be able to notice.
And what the Rabbi wrote about the dominance of the taste probably refers to what they said: something made to provide flavor is not nullified.
As explained here
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%93%D7%91%D7%A8_%D7%93%D7%A2%D7%91%D7%99%D7%93_%D7%9C%D7%98%D7%A2%D7%9E%D7%90
I really don’t know this topic at all,
but I think there are utensils where you really can feel that they absorb, and that is plastic utensils of various kinds (some more and some less). If you put a hot dish like vegetable soup into a simple plastic container, you can very clearly see how much it absorbs, and the smell stays there despite a lot of cleaning and scrubbing… Could it be that utensils used to be like that too?
Also, nowadays in general I think cleanliness is much greater than it used to be because of dish soap. I don’t know how they cleaned utensils in the past, but if it was with nothing or with a little sand for scrubbing, then in my humble opinion it’s easy to understand why utensils in the past “absorbed.” And by contrast, boiling water “draws it out.”
Is it really so far-fetched to say that the power of koshering by boiling is weaker than the power of dish soap?
Rabbi, do you think it’s possible to kosher utensils by boiling — or even fire them clean — with caustic soda after soaking?….
You’d have to ask the person who conducted the experiments whether they checked plastic.
The question is not only one of cleanliness, but also of absorption itself (and of the deterioration of the absorbed taste).
I don’t know.
He argues mainly regarding absorption in utensils
that our sense of taste has become much weaker, so even if we use utensils that certainly absorb and release, like wooden utensils, we won’t detect the taste.
And therefore the experiments, which show that utensils do not absorb, are not relevant, because there is a taste that can be detected by people who have sharp senses. So the prohibition cannot simply be nullified. It’s just that we don’t have sharp enough senses.
What do you think?